Petraeus Condemns U.S. Church's Plan to Burn Qurans ("It could endanger troops")

[kpete]

Source: Wall Street Journal

Petraeus Condemns U.S. Church's Plan to Burn Qurans

By JULIAN E. BARNES And MATTHEW ROSENBERG

KABUL—The top U.S. commander in Afghanistan said the planned burning of Qurans on Sept. 11 by a Florida church could put the lives of American troops in danger and damage the war effort.

Gen. David Petraeus said the Taliban would exploit the demonstration for propaganda purposes, drumming up anger toward the U.S. and making it harder for allied troops to carry out their mission of protecting Afghan civilians.

"It could endanger troops and it could endanger the overall effort," Gen. Petraeus said in an interview with The Wall Street Journal. "It is precisely the kind of action the Taliban uses and could cause significant problems. Not just here, but everywhere in the world we are engaged with the Islamic community."

Hundreds of Afghans attended a demonstration in Kabul on Monday to protest the plans of Florida pastor Terry Jones, who has said he will burn the Quran on Sept. 11.

Read more: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703713504575475500753093116.html

[BanzaiBonnie]

1. Stupidity hurts

[RKP5637]

2. This church is apparently packed with F'ing fools. n/t

[superconnected]

71. No kidding - but ALL of them are fools - the Christians and the Muslims that would KILL over this.

[RKP5637]

74. I decided long ago the root cause of most of the evil in the world was due to religion. n/t

[Crazy Dave]

3. This is the only thing I've seen the right-wingers I know disagree with

They're against the Manhattan mosque but this preacher down here in Florida even gives them the creeps and pisses them off.

[AlinPA]

4. Teabaggers and the rest of the republicans are quiet about it in the media.

[Turborama]

5. What about civilians who live in Muslim countries?

[burnsei sensei]

11. What about non-Muslims generally

everywhere?
If this is done, everyone is threatened.

[Turborama]

16. This is true

But I feel personally more vulnerable seeing as I live in Indonesia and in advance of the Qu'ran bonfire there are large protests all over the country, as I showed http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4529500">here.

I remember what happened when some cartoons were drawn and that's nothing compared to what will happen if hundreds of Qu'rans are burnt.

[Bragi]

37. Do you feel intimidated?

[Turborama]

38. I'll put it like this, there are places I'm avoiding. n/t

[Bragi]

40. Likely a wise choice

Stay safe. Maybe seek options.

[Bragi]

39. I say let's not be so docile this time

If parts of the Muslim world go raving mad over the burning of the Koran by a few dim bulbs in Florida, then I hope we don't once again apologize for any offense they may feel. We need to tell them that people in free countries have a right to offend anyone they wish, within the parameters of the law. If some Muslims want to burn bibles in retribution, then that's their right. Infantile rioting by Muslims globally to express their wounded piety is plain silly. However, threats to Americans will be taken seriously, and are intolerable. Got it?

[burnsei sensei]

44. I understand your view, but you are not thinking

strategically.
Muslims living in most parts of the world don't come from an individualistic society, they were born into collectivistic societies.
They really believe that what a few dim bulbs do in Florida is important to all of them. They can't separate themselves from what happens around them.
They have egos, but no individual integrity apart from their society and their faith.
And they're duty-bound to make us all pay for what those few dim bulbs do.
It doesn't matter that it's silly. You can't dismiss a man with a gun, nor can you dismiss people who live in a culture of violence and vengeance against the infidel.
Their imperative, once wronged by us (infidels) is to strike hard, and make us feel subdued, cowed and silent.
This is why burning the Koran is a BAD IDEA!

[Bragi]

53. So we should cower to Muslim threats?

You wrote: Their imperative, once wronged by us (infidels) is to strike hard, and make us feel subdued, cowed and silent.
This is why burning the Koran is a BAD IDEA!

As someone who is un-enthralled by religion, I don't think burning someone else's "holy" book is either a good or bad idea, and it is not something I'd likely do, but I do understand that doing this is perfectly legal and constitutionally protected in the US (and in most other liberal democratic societies.)

This right to free speech, for me, is crucially important to protect. I do not, therefore, support limiting free speech simply because someone or some religious group may find it offensive.

In this case, the Florida nutbars are well within their rights, as would any Muslims who want to burn the holy book of those nutbars in retaliation. In my view, both actions would be protected speech, and largely meaningless to me.

However, I refuse to censor or condemn anyone simply to avoid giving offense to Muslims. If some Muslims go on a global rampage in response to the Koran burning, or attack non-Muslims so as to defend Islam, then they should be criticized for stupidly attributing meaning to what is meaningless (Florida nutbars legally acting out on their personal psychosis) and dealt with according to the law.

What I hope doesn't happen is what happened a few years back over the danish cartoons, when publications throughout the free world self censored themselves and refused to print the cartoons to avoid Muslim wrath. Better we let the Muslims know that we cannot be intimidated again.

[burnsei sensei]

62. I'm not saying we should cower to them.

But we should not put our hands in the path of the swinging hammer either.
If you wish to offend Muslims you could:
1. Study Latin and/or Greek, read in these languages, and make no secret of your knowledge.
2. Understand the precise nature of the Trinity if you are a Christian.
3. Study Western philosophy and most particularly, the elements of Western philosophy Muslims translated versus the ones they left untranslated in the Middle Ages.
4. Bring up the historical fact that when the Muslims held Spain, they did not hold it easily, and even the philosopher Maimonides was forced out of Muslim Spain. They often talk about the tolerant nature of Islam then and there. In spite of this, there is much evidence against their contentions.
They did raid Christian kingdoms and enslave people from them.
They did force Christians and Jews to wear special clothing to indicate their religion.
They forbade Christians and Jews to ride horses or carry swords.
You can see only the most rudimentary tolerance, and an extreme suspicion of the potential of Christian power. Thus there was much repression of non-Muslims.
In Muslim Spain, the government was not about tolerance at all, but about repression and forcing submission.
And Islam means submission.
5. Study the history of Islam by way of respectable scholars instead of political operatives.

Now, Islam has 1.5 billion members.
It is subject to forces it never encountered before.
I expect the very best and the very worst from Muslim communities.
Unconditional tolerance is not something they can manage, and forbearance of offense is not in their nature.
If you do not submit, you offer all the offense you need or should want to offer.
But DO NOT BURN THE KORAN!

[Bragi]

63. I respect but do not accept your argument

Actually, I agree with your whole post, but for the last point.

While I have no intention of burning the Koran, I fail to see how global security depends on no-one anywhere ever burning a Koran.

People will (likely) do this on Saturday in Florida, and it will happen again after that.

Muslims just have to understand that this is a meaningless gesture supported by very few people. It is also protected free speech. And they have no right to harm anyone in response.

I think a message needs to be sent to the Muslim world, which is: move on, folks, because we aren't going to limit free speech to reflect the dictates of Sharia law.

[woo me with science]

64. +1 nt

[appal_jack]

84. +1, fascinating subthread here

Bragi,

Your & my ideas about how a free, secular society ought to stand firm against intimidation by fundamentalist theocrats are very similar. Thanks for speaking up for a core American value in such an articulate and well-reasoned way.

I also appreciate the historical context and perspective offered by burnei sensei.


These sorts of reasoned and informed discussions are what I love about DU.

:toast:

-app

[Chicago dyke]

68. wow. racist much?

and what is "collectivist" society and why do you think the islamic world is one?

seriously, there's so much ignorance in your statement it's hard to know where to begin.

[burnsei sensei]

70. The societies of Latin America are collectivist.

The societies of most of the world are collectivist.
Europe, though it has individualistic elements in culture, is more collectivistic than the U.S.
Collectivism is not a race.
It is an idea.
Are you afraid of ideas?
Individualism is the less-preferred perspective, since it has been associated with the imperialism of the late 19th-20th and now 21st century.
It is associated with majority rather than consensus rule.
It is associated with competition rather than cooperation as a value.
It is associated with less and careful rather than more expansive government action.
It is associated with class more than with caste.
It is associated with democracy more than with hegemony.

[Chicago dyke]

82. all of latin america is "collectivist?"

um, whatever. and for the record: i'm so far to the left it's not even funny and i'm not in any way "afraid of ideas," esp those that involve communalism and ideas that favor people over corporations. but i am also not afraid to say that people who obviously don't know what they're talking about shouldn't make blanket generalizations about places they don't really understand.

[onehandle]

6. Burning The Beatles' records brought them down overnight.

This book burning is the end of Islam.

:+

[karynnj]

30. I always wondered how many of thoe Christian kids bought the same album again by the time they were

in college.

This though is worse, much as I loved their music and looked forward to going to their Chicago show, I never thought the records were sacred. This is offensive - likely most fundamentally so to many very religious, completely non militant people. I suspect that, given their own use of violence, the terrorists would understand the action as being more political than religious. Would a terrorist, who is a suicide bomber carry a Koran? Given the planned end of life, if he were religious, you might think he would want one - but it would be destroyed.

[chimpymustgo]

66. "Would a terrorist, who is a suicide bomber carry a Koran?" Not if it's a CHRISTIAN TERRORIST.

[anachro1]

7. But will they listen to the General?

Of course not. Ignorant Xtian assholes always feel compelled to "Send a Message", but never dare to take their consequences.

Go ahead. Burn a Koran. Then those offended by the act burn down their church. Honestly. This is the only thing these deluded puspockets will ever understand.

[Crazy Dave]

9. No because...

He said:

"It could endanger troops and it could endanger the overall effort,"

He didn't say it was morally and ethically wrong, just that it will hurt the war effort.

[colinday]

15. Of course

Do you believe that the people he was addressing would be swayed by appeals to ethics?

[Crazy Dave]

18. At least the right-wingers I know are normal people...

...not politicians or talk show hosts so they're against it for the right reasons.

Welcome to DU! :hi:

[alcibiades_mystery]

27. Deploying pragmatic criteria is not mutually exclusive with deploying ethical criteria

You can oppose a certain kind of car because it is poor on gas mileage AND because the company abuses its employees. You don't have to choose one or the other. It's not Petraeus' role or function to issue moral dictums on this matter, so it's actually preferable that he sticks to the pragmatic criteria. But it's not a zero sum game, in any case.

[herbm]

32. He was appealing to the blue star mothers who think burning a Koran will bring her boy home sooner.

It may work. But a body bag is not only a quicker way to separate from the service and its an unintended consequence. If morals and ethics don't have any stroke maybe the image of a military funeral might do the trick.

[anachro1]

83. That's all they will understand

[OHdem10]

8. Thank you General Petrus. It is unfortunate the Republicans

and Religious Right Leaders have not strongly made this
statement themselves.

[Crazy Dave]

10. It's a piss poor statement

People should speak out against this because it is wrong, not because it will hurt the war effort.

[Bette Noir]

13. Whatever works.

No RW nutjob is going to take moral advice from a Leftie. However, they might listen to Petraeus when he talks about war and victory.

[Crazy Dave]

19. Good point and...

Where's all the democratic leadership speaking out against this? I haven't seen or heard any public condemnation from them either.

But I'll bet they will all start jumping on the Petraeus bandwagon now and speaking out against it for his reasons, the war and it will harm the troops. Not because it's wrong period.

[msanthrope]

56. Petraeus is a military, not moral authority--I'm glad he confined his remarks to such. n/t

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bette Noir]

14. Of course not. But we don't have to make allies for them.

[vduhr]

17. or add enemies to us...

it would just add fuel to the flame.

[Jefferson23]

20. My, how un-Republican of him. I would appreciate him taking this

a step further and declare all the garbage spewed about the Center in Manhattan to be a threat as well.

With that said, this may be as good as it gets for all the idiots out there holding on to their baseless fears
and propaganda spreading in order to sway voters in November.

Kudos to Petraeus, may be the first time I have ever said that about him.

[Vehl]

21. Fundies will be fundies....

No amount of reason and common see will convince them otherwise.

isn't it amazing that fundies all over the world think alike? :)

[Matariki]

22. If the media didn't give any attention to bigoted nut cases

that would go a long way too.

[glinda]

23. But that is the point isn't it? To endanger troops, promote hate, boost the Repubs.

[Brooklyns_Finest]

24. What is outrageous

I can see the Taliban using it as an excuse to rally the masses against American troops. However, if you are an American living abroad and you fear retaliation by Muslims because of the book burnings, then I think the problem is not the crazy christians in America, it is the crazy Muslim extremist around you.

[Bragi]

54. I agree

The American nutbars have a right to free speech, and so do any Muslim nutbars who might want to burn the bible in retaliation. But neither side in this odd battle has a right to threaten or harm others.

That is the message that needs to get out to the Muslim world. It's about freedom of speech, and frankly, for me, there is no right that is more important to defend.

[Uncle Joe]

59. Would you say that General Petraeus in condemning the book burning; because he believes it

endangers his troops is exercising his freedom of speech?

[Bragi]

60. I think his comments are a sad insight into his views

I find it sad that Petraeus doesn't apparently understand that his statement brings into question the very rationale for his mission.

As I recall, the official rationale for the Afghanistan war is to protect Americans and American liberties from attack by Islamic extremists. Right? (Lets forget oil pipelines for the moment.)

So, in this instance, this alleged deep-thinker general decides to play the "support our troops" card to criticize a group of Americans who may be nutbars, but who plan to legally exercise their constitutional right to free speech in a way that will insult many Muslims.

Sad or what. If he is so worried about the safety of the troops, then I would suggest he exercise his own right to free speech by demanding that Obama withdraw these troops from the pointless war in Afghanistan.

[Uncle Joe]

67. But are his comments a First Amendment Right?

I don't view Petraeus's comments as just "supporting the troops" so much as he's also trying to "win the hearts and minds," of the people in Afghanistan and to some extent Pakistan.

Having said all that, being in the military, Petraeus's Freedom of Speech is greatly limited in criticizing his superiors, so he can't publicly come out and demand that Obama or any other active President do anything.

No General, including Petraeus can formulate the "rationale for the mission;" their job is to carry it out to the best of his/her ability or resign.

Apparently Petraeus believes that in order for him to carry out his mission; winning hearts and minds in that part of the world is critical to it's success.

[DeSwiss]

25. K&R

- The general is in effect saying that these Christians are being un-American. How ironic.

[wisteria]

26. Wow, imagine that , an American church filled with hate.

What a stupid, stupid and ignorant act. The Quoran, nor good Muslims had anything at all to do with 9/11.

[humblebum]

28. This church needs to realize that their actions will put American soldiers at risk.

they are already protesting this in Afghanistan and this certainly will hurt whatever goodwill is being done and create new enemies. Very unpatriotic!

[Bragi]

36. Tell the people of Afghanistan this:

Tell them the American troops they see are fighting to protect the rights of Americans and everyone else to express their religious views in any lawful way they wish. That includes the freedom to insult the faiths and scriptures and leaders of other religions. Muslims in America are free to respond in kind, if they wish. No-one can harm anyone or anything in making their religious claims.

[humblebum]

75. Was Osama guilty of killing any Americans then, if all he did was

talk about it?

[Bragi]

79. ?

I don't understand your point.

[Bragi]

57. It is the war that puts troops at risk

The war in Afghanistan is pointless and tragic. No good will come from it.

However, if there is anything that I would like to think the troops are fighting for, it would be the protection of our liberties, including our right to free speech.

I don't have much difficulty making a choice when it comes to limiting free speech so as to avoid giving offense to some religious group. I support free speech, even (or especially) offensive free speech.

I agree that the Florida church people are dimbulbs, but I support the right of dimbulbs to freely express their idiotic thoughts.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[humblebum]

31. If you favor the public burning of any such material, you are part of the

problem.

[Bragi]

33. Let me refine that

The church leader and his supporters have every right to offend Muslims if they wish. They are free under the U.S Constitution, if they wish, to invoke Mohhamad's name using the worst inflammatory language possible, and can accompany the rant with insulting illustrations, if they wish. This is constitutionally-protected religous speech in America. Right?

Okay. In response, Muslim's are free to burn the Bible in every possible allowed venue, to treat it with public derision and contempt as they may wish, and to characterize the historical Jesus, in words or drawings, in the most unfavorable light imaginable. That is fully within their rights as Americans.

So here's the wrinkle here:

In happily advancing their mutual religious narratives, no-one on either side of this discourse has any right whatsoever to do any violence or harm to any person or property. Period. Feel free to re-read that sentence. And any actions taken as part of this dialogue which cause any harm need to investigated and treated in keeping with all the relevant U.S laws. That applies to all sides in this discussion.

So, to all pious and fervent contestants, I say: knock yourselves out. Feel free to haul out, condemn and destroy the other guy's screed standing amid rush-hour traffic, for all I care. For me, I'll just observe, what with me not having any dog in this particular hunt. Unless a law is broken.

[humblebum]

43. I agree. They have the right, but they may also have to bear the consequences.

Anything beyond that and they need to be nailed.

[Bragi]

46. What consequences for whom?

If you're saying the jackasses in Florida have to pay the consequences for their attack on Islam, then I don't agree. The Florida nutbars will reap much attention, a bagful of media coverage, and no doubt feel terrifically self-satisfied by their actions.

Who will pay the consequences is anyone victimized by any Muslim tantrums/violence spawned by their action.

That said,burning a Koran or any other "holy" book is well within the notion of freedom of expression, which is protected, and which, I believe, must be defended by freedom-loving folks everywhere.

I just hope this instance won't be like with the Danish cartoon controversy a few years back. I now wish, in retrospect, that instead of self-censorship to avoid offending Muslims, which is what happened, that every publication everywhere printed the cartoons for one reason only -- to show they will not be intimidated by religious nutbars of any persuasion into self-censorship.

Unfortunately, what we showed the Muslim world during that incident was the exact opposite: that we are easily intimidated into silence so as to validate their claims that any offense against Islam is unacceptable. It wasn't our finest moment.

[humblebum]

73. There are those pesky little things called hate crimes. An extreme

example would be:if Hitler did not actually participate in any genocidal killings but only egged them on, was he guilty of any crime because all he did was talk about it?

[humblebum]

72. deleted

[burnsei sensei]

45. You cannot count on a non-Westerner to play the game. nt

[14thColony]

58. I agree with what you say, but at the risk of being pedantic

I have to point out an error in this part:
"In response, Muslim's are free to burn the Bible in every possible allowed venue, to treat it with public derision and contempt as they may wish, and to characterize the historical Jesus, in words or drawings, in the most unfavorable light imaginable. That is fully within their rights as Americans."

I get your point, and your example works great with Vedas, Krishna, Shinto scrolls, Buddha, etc. But just so we're all clear, no (normal/sane/pious) Muslim would ever even contemplate the actions you list, since:

a) the books by or concerning Moses (the entire Torah), David (the Psalms), and Jesus (all the Gospels) - which together make up a substantial part of the Christian Bible - are all considered divinely-inspired revelations of the God of Abraham, and thus sacred, and;

b) Jesus of Nazareth is considered one of the greatest prophets God ever sent to Man, in some ways ranking second only to Muhammad in importance.

There are plenty of places in the Muslim world where doing either of these two things would be a death sentence for any Muslim.

So this particular kind of polemicism -- demeaning images of Muhammad, burning Qur'ans, etc., is and will always be a one-way street -- Muslims can't retaliate in kind because they revere the prophets and books of Judaism and Christianity nearly as much as Jews and Christians so.

[Bragi]

61. I don't find that pedantic

However, a) I'm sure Muslims could find some non-combustible way of expressing their offense if they wish, and b) any religious prohibitions they have imposed on themselves regarding the burning of holy books isn't my problem.

[woo me with science]

65. +1 nt

[Theobald]

78. Beware of making generalizations

Posted by 14thcolony "Muslims can't retaliate in kind because they revere the prophets and books of Judaism and Christianity nearly as much as Jews and Christians so."

Which muslims would those be? Is that all 1.5 billion of them or the majority of them, because it's hard to find articles about muslims who won't burn the bible but it's very easy to find stories about muslims who will burn bibles as well as christians.

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4ADBR_en___US326&q=%22muslims+burn%22#hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1T4ADBR_en___US326&q=%22muslims+burn+bible%22&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=735e4873b6926a75

[14thColony]

80. I was very aware of my generalization

And you seem to confuse the fact you can find exceptions to the generalization with an overall invalidation of the generalization.

Let's assume as a thought exercise that the entire human population of Pakistan are all serial bible-fryers - that's 167 million people - and on top of that let's assume all 78 million Iranians, right down to infants, are all bible-burners (even though neither population is 100 percent Muslim, but humor me). That's 245 million people out of an estimated 1.66 billion, or less than 15 percent, which means in this thought exercise that over 85 percent of the world Muslim community are NOT Bible burners.

I think 85 percent is pretty solid grounds for a generalization. And if there were in fact nearly a quarter-billion Bible-fryers in the Muslim world, I doubt you'd have to use Google to find evidence as it'd be pretty common knowledge. So yes, it happens. But amongst some of the most uneducated populations around -- people who probably haven't even read what they're buring nor understand what they're doing. Which of course brings us back to Dove World Outreach or whatever it's called.

By the way "hard to find articles about Muslims who won't burn the bible"? Seriously? Well, I also can't find articles about Zoroastrians who won't burn the Dutch flag, so I suppose I should assume that's pretty widespread too.

[Theobald]

85. Oh please

You stated "So this particular kind of polemicism -- demeaning images of Muhammad, burning Qur'ans, etc., is and will always be a one-way street", but you can't back up your assertion. Their are numerous stories about muslims burning the bible, buring churches, burning christian areas of town, and indeed burning christians, which makes your point invalid. If you want to talk about percentages, look at the fact you only have 50 nutball christians burning the koran, which comes out to .000016 percentage of Americans.

BTW, no I wasn't serious about it's hard to find Muslims who won't burn the bible, but I also couldn't find many stories of muslims denouncing the burning of bibles.

[AtheistCrusader]

34. No such thing as a holy book.

Still, seems like a bad time to be provoking them intentionally.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bulloney]

41. Why don't we offer to fly the good he-man reverend to Afghanistan to carry out his Koran burning?

Give him lots of publicity for the event to assure a good turnout...of Muslims.

What does Jones REALLY expect to accomplish if he follows through on this? Does he think it'll make him feel like he's a real tough guy? Is he appealing to his knuckle dragging base?

Only in America can such blatant ignorance be rewarded with nationwide media coverage.

[existentialist]

42. Petraeus is right.

Similarly, and quite aside from constitutional reasons, those who are opposing the Islamic religious center near the 9-11 site are also undermining and endangering our troops and hurting our efforts in both Afghanistan and Iraq, and also putting us again in more danger of terroristic attacks at home.

Surely there must be a few sane voices even on the right that get this--I guess that's where Petraeus comes in . . .

[ScreamingMeemie]

47. Top US commander: Burning Quran endangers troops

Source: Washington Post

KABUL, Afghanistan -- The top U.S. and NATO commander in Afghanistan warned Tuesday that an American church's threat to burn copies of the Muslim holy book the Quran could endanger U.S. troops in the country and Americans worldwide.

"Images of the burning of a Quran would undoubtedly be used by extremists in Afghanistan - and around the world - to inflame public opinion and incite violence," Gen. David Petraeus said in an e-mail to The Associated Press.

His comments followed a protest Monday by hundreds of Afghans over the plans by Gainesville, Florida-based Dove World Outreach Center - an evangelical Christian church that espouses anti-Islam philosophy - to burn copies of the Quran on church grounds to mark the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks in the United States that provoked the Afghan war.

Read more: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/09/06/AR2010090600589.html

---

Again I find myself thinking "World Outreach Center". Way to "reach" the world.

[TheCowsCameHome]

48. Those idiots in Florida are really over the top.

What they are planning to do is bad news.

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sinkingfeeling]

51. You're joking right? Or do you really think that this story of the idiot in Florida hasn't gone

international?

[Bragi]

50. Sure they're nuts, which makes their action meaningless

However, what matters is that a) their right to free expression is respected, and b) that Muslims learn that freedom of speech means the freedom to insult religion in general, or in particular.

[sinkingfeeling]

52. For every Quaran this idiot burns, I intend to dump a Bible into a working Port-a-John.

[Uncle Joe]

55. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, kpete.

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

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[activa8tr]

76. That is one of the most irrational and war mongering posts I have ever

seen on a board like this.

Very sorry to see it here.

[Old Troop]

77. Reminds me of the line in Casablanca, "yesterday they were two unknown

couriers, today they're Heroes of the Reich". These unknown losers got the US to look at them and comment at the highest levels about their plan. Take that Fred Phelps!

[sendero]

81. Imagine..

... me agreeing with Patraeus. Well, a stopped clock and all.