Indonesian Christians beat on their way to prayers

[Prometheus Bound]

Source: AP

By IRWAN FIRDAUS (AP) – 34 minutes ago

BEKASI, Indonesia — Indonesia's president ordered police to arrest the assailants who stabbed a Christian worshipper in the stomach and beat a minister in the head with a wooden plank as they headed to prayers. Neither of the injuries appeared to be life-threatening.

Indonesia, a secular country of 237 million people, has more Muslims than any other in the world. Though it has a long history of religious tolerance, a small extremist fringe has become more vocal — and violent — in recent years.

President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono, who relies heavily on Islamic parties in parliament, has been widely criticized in the media for failing to crack down on hard-liners. But he immediately called on authorities to investigate and hold accountable those responsible for Sunday's attacks.

Police have said they know who the perpetrators were, though they would not comment further. Suspicion immediately fell on Muslim hard-liners who have repeatedly warned members of the Batak Christian Protestant Church against worshipping on a field housing their recently shuttered church.

In the last few months, they have thrown shoes and water bottles at church members, interrupted sermons with chants of "Infidels!" and "Leave Now!" and dumped piles of feces on the land.

Read more: http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jpbu9DD8o-hpYqCKV8IYchwbCYwgD9I6VNO00

---

These small groups of crazies around the world sure know how to make headlines.

[Turborama]

1. This Anti-Qur'an Burning Protest Sign Says "CHURCH COMMUNITY" In Indonesian On The Banner Beneath

My wife translated it the other day and http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9108501">I posted an OP about it recently.

This means it was made by the Christian community in Indonesia...


Also, the pictures underneath it are of a Hindu temple, a Bhuddist temple, some Balinese Hindu
priests with what looks like leaders from different religions. The different hands on the Qur'an
are symbolic, too.

This powerful image was originally posted on this Al Jazeera English Blog with no description beneath it: http://blogs.aljazeera.net/americas/2010/09/08/quran-also-burns-fahrenheit-451">The Quran also burns at Fahrenheit 451

BTW, there are multiple faiths spread across Indonesia's archipelago and they are mostly living in harmony ...



More details here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Indonesia

[Prometheus Bound]

2. Bekasi is close to Jakarta, which would be the light green Traditional Islam area on your map.

Just for reference.

An attorney for the Church suspects police involvement.

Police warned HKPB church not conduct religious services
The Jakarta Post, Jakarta | Sun, 09/12/2010 2:14 PM | National

<snip>

The HKBP Church received a warning letter from the Bekasi Police three days before the incident. The letter urged parishioners not to attend church services because of rising security risks that might threaten their safety.

“From a logical legal perspective, if the police had prior knowledge of a potential threat, why didn’t they implement standard operating procedures to ensure security? Or were the police involved?” asked Saor Siagian, an attorney for the HKBP church, as quoted by kompas.com, adding that he was suspicious that the police might have been involved in a series of violent acts perpetrated against the HKBP church.

“If they were informed about a possible attack, the police should have taken anticipatory measures,” he said.

The police request for church members not to attend their Sunday worship deviates from Indonesia’s professed commitment to religious freedom, Saor added.

“The police do not have the authority to ask people not to worship. If they do so, they are interfering in the delicate balance between politics and religion, which takes their focus away from their main duties,” Saor said.
http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2010/09/12/ridiculous-instead-being-neutral-police-warn-hkpb-church-not-do-religious-ritual.htm

[Turborama]

4. And? The point is? Also, your additional post means this is not late breaking news.

I'm curious as to the motives behind posting this here.

Where were all the posts about what's been going on in Nigeria http://www.google.com/search?q=christians+attacked+in+nigerai&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-US&ie=utf8&oe=utf8#q=christians%20attacked%20in%20nigeria&num=10&hl=en&safe=off&rls=com.microsoft:en-US&prmdo=1&source=lnms&psj=1&ei=ghmOTPWYAYq8vQPBl9TnBg&sa=X&oi=mode_link&ct=mode&ved=0CBUQ_AU&fp=dfcfb0007a9a7744">over the past few months?

Nigeria’s Christian Leaders Concerned After Hundreds of Muslim Radicals Escape From Prison

Washington, D.C. (September 8, 2010)–International Christian Concern (ICC) has learned that more than 700 members of an Islamic extremist group, Boko Haram, escaped yesterday after suspected fellow members of the group raided a prison in Bauchi, northern Nigeria.

A group of armed men attacked the prison at 6:40 PM and fought with the prison guards for two hours. At least four people were reportedly killed during the shootout.

Boko Haram opposes western education and fights to impose Sharia law throughout Nigeria, including areas that are majority Christian. The group has repeatedly targeted the police and Christian communities. Christian leaders in northern Nigeria are alarmed by the massive escape of Boko Haram members. In July 2009, members of Boko Haram carried out attacks against Nigerian police officials leading to the death of more than 700 people. Members of Boko Haram also killed a dozen Christians, including Pastor Sabo Yakubu, Rev. Sylvester O. Akpan and Rev. George Orjhi.

“(The escape from prison) is a clear indication of anarchy. Boko Haram is a threat to Christians in northeastern part of Nigeria where Christians were killed, including pastors killed and church burned down. More people could be killed if they are not checked,” said Rev. John Hayab. Rev. Hayab is the General Secretary of the Christian Association of Nigerian’s Kaduna State chapter.

Jonathan Racho, ICC’s Regional Manager for Africa, said “We are extremely concerned by the escape of Boko Haram members from prison. This is yet another indication of the failure by Nigerian authorities to protect their citizens from the violence by Islamic extremist groups. We urge Nigerian officials to immediately rearrest the escapees and protect the citizens of the country from future attacks.”

More: http://www.persecution.org/2010/09/08/nigerias-christian-leaders-concerned-after-hundreds-of-muslim-radicals-escape-from-prison/

What about the increasing Islamophobia and physical attacks against Muslims and Mosques that's happening in your own backyard? http://www.commondreams.org/newswire/2010/05/14-4">A mosque was BOMBED last May in the States, have you heard about that?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x504016#504201">"You Turn On The Television & The Radio & You Basically Witness An Onslaught Against Islam"

Muslims in America increasingly alienated as hatred grows in Bible belt

The Guardian

On the anniversary of 9/11, Chris McGreal reports from the Tennessee town where Muslims have lived in harmony with Christians for decades – but where they now feel under threat



Safaa Fathy was as surprised to discover that she is at the heart of a plot against America as she was to hear that her small Tennessee town is a focus of hate in the Muslim world.

The diminutive fifty-something physiotherapist, who has lived in Murfreesboro for most of her adult life, happens to be on the board of her town's Islamic centre. Now she finds herself accused of being a front for Islamic Jihad, of planning to impose sharia law on her neighbours, and of threatening the very existence of Christianity in Tennessee.

"There is something around the whole United States, something is different. I was here since 1982. I have three kids here and I never had any trouble. My kids, they go to the girl scouts, they play basketball, they did all the normal activities. It just started this year. It's strange, because after 9/11 there was no problem," said Fathy, who was born in Egypt. "In the past in America other people were the target. We are the target now. We have trouble in California, we have trouble in New York, we have trouble in Florida. It's a shame because Murfreesboro is a very nice town to live in."

As the US prepares to mark the ninth anniversary of the al-Qaida assault on New York and the Pentagon, the country's Muslims say they are enduring a wave of hostility and suspicion from some of their fellow Americans that they rarely encountered in the years immediately following the 9/11 attacks.

Full article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/sep/10/us-muslims-america-alienated-hatred

-

[Bragi]

5. You ask the poster "what is your point?"

I think the article posted was directly relevant to the beatings reported in the OP.

So what's your point?

You keep repeatedly posting the same photo and the same map of Muslim populations in Indonesia.

Are you saying people weren't beaten on their way to work? Or are we supposed to ignore that beating because something has been happening in Nigeria?

Please explain: What's your point?

[Turborama]

6. Yes, I asked them what's the point they were making that Bekasi is close to Jakarta? Not you.

You keep posting anti Muslim posts and focusing on Indonesia, I know what your POV is already.

I thought you were amenable to a mature debate about this topic, it appears that I am wrong.

Not that that I was making it to you, and I'm not sure why you feel you're so important that you can demand I "explain" anything to you when the only explanation I've had from you is via PM instead of making it in public...

My point is, why is everybody concerned about what's going on in Indonesia all of a sudden (the latest one being a small protest against some Christians posted in this OP) and recently there have been some really brutal machete attacks against hundreds of Christians in Nigeria which seem to have been ignored.

The reason I am posting that map a lot is so that people know that Indonesia is not some hardline Islamic religiously intolerant country like I've been reading some here say it is.

In fact, Indonesia appears to be a very tolerant country compared to America at the moment.

[Bragi]

7. I don't think everybody is focused on Indonesia

Far as I can tell, any media focus on Indonesia has been due to the fact that it has been the location for some of the first protests against Jones' Koran-burning plan.

Some of the statements of the Indonesian President in the last few weeks also received media attention, since he predicted unrest if the burnings proceeded, followed by a later statement saying that protests are still justified because Koran-burning was even thought of, even though they were canceled.

Now an instance of violence has been reported today.

Given all that, it isn't hard to see why there has been some media focus on Indonesia, and why media haven't been focused on Nigeria instead.

[Turborama]

9. I wasn't talking about "everybody" and media focus, I'm talking about DU

Yes, there were some peaceful protests in Indonesia against the Qur'an burning and the President made a similar statement to other Presidents (including Obama) and General Petraeus. Big. Fucking. Deal.

When was Indonesia's President's "later statement saying that protests are still justified because Koran-burning was even thought of"? Link and quote please.

Please post it publicly this time, don't PM me your speculative crap again.

[Bragi]

8. I just noticed you wrote this:

Not that that I was making it to you, and I'm not sure why you feel you're so important that you can demand I "explain" anything to you when the only explanation I've had from you is via PM instead of making it in public...

Yes I wrote you a PM out of politeness, to answer a question you asked of me that i couldn't respond to because the thread was shut down and no postings were permitted.

But you know what, Turborama, I don't like the way you conduct yourself in debate, so I will decline to debate you in any way in the future. And please feel free to ignore my posts.

Bye.

- B

[Bragi]

10. And here's the PM I wrote:

I sent this self-explanatory message last week to Turborama. I copy it here just in case T. tries to make something of it that it isn't, which at this point would not surprise me.

Media and protest timelines
To: Turborama
Date: Sep-10-10 03:41 PM

I'm emailing you directly only because you asked, and they closed the thread we were on to comments.

You asked about my claims regarding the U.S media time line, and the organizing of the protests against Jones' planned stunt.

So when were the demos in your part of the world?

I note this story from Sept. 4 -- About 3,000 members of a hard-line Islamic group marched to the U.S. Embassy in downtown Jakarta waving banners and posters condemning the plan. The group organized similar rallies in five other cities across Indonesia, the world' largest Muslim nation. (Huff Post Sept. 4)

I would suspect that this group began planning that 5-city protest event some time well prior to the day it occurred. Yes? They were over well before CNN and the rest of the US media ramped up coverage.

We need to remember that this happened not because of the inherent importance of the matter to U.S media, but because Petraeus issued his statement on Sept. 7. When the admin stepped in, it went stratospheric, and only then did most of American find out who Terry Jones is, and it isn't pretty. It's like he's been sent from central casting to be a total asshole beyond any redemption.

Ultimately, my central point is this:

A lot of people on these DU boards on this subject are basically blaming U.S media for causing the problem. I don't think that what American English-language media reports actually matters a whole lot for the jihadists, including the "hard-line Islamic group" that organized in Indonesia.

Aside: I was amused last night watching CNN when one of their hosts stated flat-out (and I paraphrase here) "If we (American media) don't cover Jones, no-one will know what happens". His breathtaking confidence in his own importance as an information gatekeeper made me feel like it 1980 again, like the Internet didn't exist, and times were sweeter:

I noted that today you posted an item where SKY news is reporting from a Jones news conference that was boycotted by the "responsible" American networks. That bothers me. It looks to me like a bad time for them to decide to stop doing their jobs. That's my view.

And I think I know the real reason they are declining to cover what's going on, and it isn't a case of Sudden Onset Responsibility Awakening Syndrome. I think they're just scared that the jihadists will come after them with violence and do them harm if they do the job they are supposed to be doing in a liberal democracy, at least at this particular moment.

I sympathize with them. And I have a problem with all that.

I'd welcome any response, should you want to offer one.

- B

[Turborama]

12. And here's my reply

Thanks for your PM

The thread wasn't closed, it was combined with another thread.

I think I need to answer this more at length as part of an OP I'm putting together with my Muslim brother in law, I won't call you out specifically but this sort of debate deserves to be carried out in public so that others can learn from it, too.

As far as the dates are concerned, check this NYT article to see when it all began going "stratospheric"

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/26/us/26gainesville.html

BTW Faux news is broadcast live 24/7 all over Indonesia, as well as other Muslim countries. For more details, check out this OP I started on Thurs Aug-19 about that (it was actually based on a reply I made on Tue Aug-17 which I link to in that OP): http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8976871

BTW Indonesia's government is run as a "Unitary presidential republic"

This link takes you to a map of the other unitary states in the world:

[Turborama]

11. That's not true, that thread was combined and you had ample opportunity to answer me publicly

Anyone who has to ask in public "Am I Islamophobic?" and posts replies tinged with Islamophobia seems to have answered the question themselves.

I don't like your attitude towards Muslims and Indonesia so I will take your offer of mutually clicking on ignore.

[Bragi]

13. I'm not putting you on ignore

I will comment as I like on whatever you or anyone else posts.

I simply choose not to debate you in future.

[Turborama]

14. Good, I'm glad you're going to leave me alone

However, I am still going to post the OP I mentioned in the PM explaining explicitly what's really going on in Indonesia. If you want to ignore it, that's up to you.

If I see you posting anything that is factually wrong I will not ignore it.

[leftynyc]

23. Reallly?

Care to expand on that thought? That Indonesia is more tolerant than America right now.

[Turborama]

25. I said

In fact, Indonesia appears to be a very tolerant country compared to America at the moment.

I meant that in the context of the extreme polarization, hate and fearmongering we are witnessing.

Maybe it's just because I live here and the political/cultural climate here is no way near as corrosive and toxic as it is in the States right now and everyone here seems a lot more tolerant of each other. I live on an island where people from multiple faiths and different political views live together in harmony.

[Prometheus Bound]

19. My point that it is the biggest story on Google SE Asian news

I have my Google news set on Philippines English, and after the newborn child found in the airport trash, this was the biggest story with 447 news articles listed under it.

http://news.google.com/news?ned=en_ph

This was the first time I noticed it on the front page despite visiting the site a number of times a day to see headline news, and the AP article and most of the other articles at the top showed recent hours. Only later did I see the older articles.

What gives you the right to demand people give reasons for posting? I live in China and travel to the Philippines a lot. So I tend to be more Asia-centric in my news than other posters here. What business is that of yours? Is there some rule I don't know of about Asian stories not being allowed?

Take your implied censorship somewhere where it is appreciated. You sound a bit out of place here.

[Turborama]

21. I didn't demand anything, I said I'm curious as to the motives behind posting this here.

And I was genuinely curious. Thanks for clearing it up.

I live in Indonesia and a lot of my news sources are related to SE Asia too. Also, I have recently been having several arguments with various DUers who seem intent on demonizing Indonesia as some kind of intolerant Islamic state, when the opposite is true. So, please forgive me for being sensitive and coming off a bit snarky.

I didn't actually insult you personally and we might have more in common than most when discussing issues like this, seeing as we're living in the region.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Loudmxr]

3. I noticed a lot of FOXNews in my hotel rooms. Maybe they are getting lessons from America.

[Bragi]

15. No doubt US media has some influence, however...

However, according to this report, up to last week, the Koran burning controversy was more the focus of media and groups in Muslim countries than it was a US phenomenon.

I would suggest it's worth a read. My personal observations pretty much match the observations made in the article.

How (and why) the media made Terry Jones a star
Gen. Petraeus' comments sparked a frenzy in the U.S. But the story had been going strong in Muslim media for weeks

http://www.salon.com/news/politics/war_room/2010/09/10/terry_jones_koran_burn_timeline/index.html

[Turborama]

16. Quran burning and US inconsistency (Drones create "ground zeroes" in multiple locales everyday)

Why does the US government think burning Qurans is less civilised than drone attacks on civilian populations?


The plan to burn Qurans has served to confirm perceptions that US wars are driven by hostility
towards Muslims (EPA)

Lamis Andoni Last Modified: 11 Sep 2010 13:34 GMT

Barack Obama, the US president, has warned that threats to burn the Quran are a sure and effective way to swell the ranks of al-Qaeda. This may be true, but largely because such symbolic acts of 'Islamophobia' are widely viewed as verifying the perception that the US wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, along with its backing of Israel, are motivated by its hostility towards Muslims.

The previously unheard of pastor of a small Florida church may have scrapped his plan to publicly burn hundreds of Qurans on the ninth anniversary of the 9/11 attacks, but the threat alone has done untold damage to the already troubled relationship between the Muslim world and the West.

The US government's reaction to the plan will not have gone unnoticed. But no matter how strong the words of condemnation, those on the receiving end of US occupation or air raids will be struck by the apparent inconsistency.

General David Petraeus, the US commander in Afghanistan, warned that burning the Quran could endanger the lives of US troops who might become the target of retribution. But why do Obama and Petraeus think that burning the Quran is any less civilised or more dangerous than their use of unmanned drones to target suspected Taliban or al-Qaeda fighters and the subsequent civilian casualties these attacks often entail?

Terry Jones, the pastor behind the planned Quran bonfire, may be insane, as some, including his own daughter, have suggested. But what excuse do sane and sophisticated people like Obama, Petraeus, and Robert Gates, the US secretary of defence, have?

More (which focuses on the "Dehumanisation"): http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/opinion/2010/09/201091112152289695.html

[Bragi]

17. Note obvious attempt to change subject

Note the obvious attempt here by this poster to shift to the issue of predator drones as a response to a posting about the respective roles of US and Muslim media in fanning the flames of the Terry Jones controversy in the Muslim world.

Personally, as I have posted here in the past, I am appalled by the very idea of predator drones. However, I just want to point out here the irrelevance of this point to any discussion of media coverage of dimbulb Jones.

[Turborama]

18. Note the reason it was posted was to enlighten the ignorant as to why the rise in US Islamophobia

is taken very seriously in Muslim countries. Hence the reason the media in Muslim countries took it a lot more seriously than the US media did. The previous post is yet another example of how Americans living in America are kept in a "knowledge bubble" by their corporate run main stream media.

Also, it's worth noting that the previous poster is constantly defending said corporate run US media's role in this and ignoring the often made statement that Faux news - the main culprit for the current rise in Islamophobia (or for the existing Islamophobes feeling it's ok to come out of the closet) - is the only US news station broadcast live 24/7 all over the Muslim world.

[alp227]

20. So are the American fundies right about tolerance leading to Sharia incidents like this?

"Indonesia, a secular country of 237 million people, has more Muslims than any other in the world. Though it has a long history of religious tolerance, a small extremist fringe has become more vocal — and violent — in recent years."

And conservatives will claim that tolerating the extremists persecutes the "good Christians" of Indonesia and fear the same in America (despite all the anti-Muslim incidents last month).

When Fox News reports the incident:

"The United States, a Christian country of 300 million people, has more Christians than any other in the world. Though it has a long history of religious tolerance, a small Islamic extremist fringe has invaded our heritage in recent years."

[Vehl]

26. !!!

When Fox News reports the incident:

"The United States, a Christian country of 300 million people, has more Christians than any other in the world. Though it has a long history of religious tolerance, a small Islamic extremist fringe has invaded our heritage in recent years."

Fox news said that??!!! Its outrageous!! when did America become a "Christian country"?? I'm so pissed off

[alp227]

28. nononono this Fox News thing I posted was just a joke.

In response to the Islamophobia by that partially-Saudi-owned network.

[Vehl]

29. lol ok

you had me there!


I would have questioned the joke if it was CNN...but when you said FOX I did believe they were capable of making such a statement.lol

[sabrina 1]

22. And here, Christians are burning Mosques.

But neither country is represented by those incidents. And I wish the media would make that point every time they cover these incidents.

Highlighting those who in any society will resort to violence, gives a false impression of the socieites as a whole.

I notice that in this instance what these people did is considered a crime. As it is here.

The ten year demonizing of Muslims in this country has been so unbalanced that we now have people here who believe they have a right to wage war against them.

[Bragi]

24. Question

I am aware that loathsome white supremacists firebombed a Mosque in Tennessee, which I condemn, of course, but I'm not aware of any others. Are there other examples of Christians burning Mosques in the U.S?

[sabrina 1]

31. There have been many examples of Muslims being attacked

since 9/11 (and even before that). Even people who are not Muslim but 'look Muslim', Sikhs, Hindus etc.

This terrorist attack on a Mosque was especially disturbing since it was aimed at children:

Muslim Children Gassed at Dayton Mosque After Obsession DVD Hits Ohio

Friday, September 26th ended a week in which thousands of copies of Obsession: Radical Islam's War Against the West -- the fear-mongering, anti-Muslim documentary being distributed by the millions in swing states via DVDs inserted in major newspapers and through the U.S. mail -- were distributed by mail in Ohio. The same day, a "chemical irritant" was sprayed through a window of the Islamic Society of Greater Dayton, where 300 people were gathered for a Ramadan prayer service. The room that the chemical was sprayed into was the room where babies and children were being kept while their mothers were engaged in prayers. This, apparently, is what the scare tactic political campaigning of John McCain's supporters has led to -- Americans perpetrating a terrorist attack against innocent children on American soil.

It didn't get nearly the same fear mongering coverage we get when it's a Muslim who is responsible. In fact it got very little compared to the Underwear Bomber eg.

The matter of fact news report in the Dayton paper didn't come close to conveying the horrific impact of this unthinkable act like the email I had just read, so I asked the email's author for permission to share what they had written. The author was with one of the families from the mosque -- a mother and two of the small children who were in the room that was gassed -- the day after the attack occurred.

"She told me that the gas was sprayed into the room where the babies and children were being kept while their mothers prayed together their Ramadan prayers. Panicked mothers ran for their babies, crying for their children so they could flee from the gas that was burning their eyes and throats and lungs. She grabbed her youngest in her arms and grabbed the hand of her other daughter, moving with the others to exit the building and the irritating substance there.

"The paramedic said the young one was in shock, and gave her oxygen to help her breathe. The child couldn't stop sobbing.

"This didn't happen in some far away place -- but right here in Dayton, and to my friends. Many of the Iraqi refugees were praying together at the Mosque Friday evening. People that I know and love.

.....

"She tells me that her daughters slept with her last night, the little one in her arms and sobbing throughout the night. She tells me she is afraid, and will never return to the mosque, and I wonder what kind of country is this where people have to fear attending their place of worship?"

"The children come into the room, and tell me they want to leave America and return to Syria, where they had fled to from Iraq. They say they like me, ... , and other American friends -- but they are too afraid and want to leave. Should a 6 and 7 year old even have to contemplate the safety of their living situation?

"Did the anti-Muslim video circulating in the area have something to do with this incident, or is that just a bizarre coincidence? Who attacks women and children?

"What am I supposed to say to them? My words can't keep them safe from what is nothing less than terrorism, American style. Isn't losing loved ones, their homes, jobs, possessions and homeland enough? Is there no place where they can be safe?

"She didn't want me to leave her tonight, but it was after midnight, and I needed to get home and write this to my friends. Tell me -- tell me -- what am I supposed to say to them?"

There was another incident at a Mosque in NJ recently where protestors shouted 'terrorists' in the faces of little children leaving the Mosque. Who exactly were the terrorists in that incident?

I could list more, but do we want the world to judge US by these reprehensible acts? Because when the media here publishes incidents from say, Indonesia, WE judge that country by that small minority of radical, sick people.

The coverage of this rising anti-Muslim sentiment in this country has done more to contribute to it than anything else.

There are extremists and very sick people everywhere, American is by no means exempt although watching the coverage of these events, you would swear we were completely pure and eternal victims.

[Turborama]

27. A Florida Mosque was bombed in May

I only heard about it earlier myself when I was watching "Empire".

No media coverage of it whatsoever: http://www.commondreams.org/newswire/2010/05/14-4