14 killed, dozens injured over Quran desecration protests in Indian-controlled Kashmir

[Bragi]

Source: Xinhua News

SRINAGAR, Indian-controlled Kashmir, Sept. 13 (Xinhua) -- At least 14 people including a policeman were killed and dozens wounded Monday in Indian-controlled Kashmir, after police fired warning shots to control the violent protests against the alleged desecration of the holy Quran in the United States, locals said.

The police and government officials are yet to confirm the deaths.

Hundreds of Muslim residents in the region took to roads defying curfew after an Iran based television channel reportedly showed a group of people tearing apart pages of the holy Quran in Washington.

The protesters took to roads shouting slogans "Down with the U. S.!" and "Death to Quran desecrators!"

Read more: http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/world/2010-09/13/c_13493045.htm

---

This and other articles indicate that the news reports of the Koran burnings that triggered this violence are from Iranian media sources, NOT U.S. sources. I point this out because people need to understand that the protests will likely grow in coming days NOT because US media are deliberately inflaming the situation, but because of coverage by Muslim media outlets who are not dependent on US media sources (or friendly to the U.S.) I think we need to stop blaming US media for inflammatory coverage, because that isn't what is happening. In fact, U.S media tried to choke off this story this past weekend, to no avail.

[WCGreen]

1. Except they helped build the pier by giving this little pissant of a preacher

a national stage to prance around on.

No, the media deserves all the blame for this.

Just because they didn't show an actual koran going up in smoke doesn't absolve them from creating this mess in the first place.

[dkf]

4. There was another poster saying the idiot was in international media the entire summer.

And we are very late to the story. It might not be us at all.

[WCGreen]

6. He was in our media all summer as well....

[Igel]

35. Yes, but irrelevant.

You have to distinguish between "in" on the one hand and "commonly referenced" and "highlighted," on the other.

There were occasional stories posted here from small sources, as well as stories from prominent sources but which received little coverage; the earliest reports are from Florida papers and international sources that are either pro-Muslim or vaguely happy to embarrass the US. Where it received attention was where it triggered the most outrage, where it fed confirmation bias and political or ideological goals: At DU, because it was convenient to be outraged at an outsider; I have to assume that Free Republic took note for the exact opposite reason. Rick Sanchez picked it up on 7/31. Charles Johnson, of LFG, picked it up (with no great spotlight on the Koran burning per se) on 7/23, 11 days after Jones announced the event outside his own herd of sheep. Johnson has flipped his attention fetish from jihadis to bigots so it's surprising it took 11 days if it was really prominent.

Before Johnson picked up the story, before it broke on CNN, the Ikhwan had already declared a reciprocal "International Bible Burning Day." Just before it received official US condemnation and made the NYT, the media coverage abroad had already forced high-ranking Pakistani and Indonesian officials either call for Interpol to arrest the pastor or threatening that any progress in US-Muslim relations would be completely undone. It seems very unlikely to me that the US media and politicians planted and nurtured the story abroad for weeks, only allowing it in minor domestic news sources before splashing it everywhere in the US.

No, what looked to come out of left field was a response, pure and simple, to both the coverage *and* the statements made by "important people" abroad. The time lag is hard to explain, otherwise: The story rages overseas for a month while it smoulders in the US; it receives official condemnation abroad, Clinton and those connected with US diplomacy and overseas affairs immediately weigh in, the story then is suddenly front-page news and editors in the MSM are outraged, which then forces US politicians to get involved.

[Turborama]

37. Ever thought of why it "smouldered" in the US while international media took it more seriously?

Because it's just one of multiple stories about the rise in Islamophobia in the US. For example, http://www.commondreams.org/newswire/2010/05/14-4">A mosque was BOMBED last May in the States, have you heard about that?

However, out of all the stories coming out of the US the one that is going to most upset Muslims all over the world is going to be the one about some fuckwit wanting to start a bonfire of Qur'ans.

BTW your post is interesting but it would be a lot more informative if there were some links to go with it. ;-)

[Bragi]

47. +++ /nt

[Bragi]

13. Yep

Read this:

http://www.salon.com/news/politics/war_room/2010/09/10/terry_jones_koran_burn_timeline/index.html

[jaxx]

5. I agree, the media promoted the preacher like a new Broadway play.

They can back off all they want, the damage was done with the hype.

[Bragi]

10. That's not actually the case

The article below shows that US media played this story as little as possible until Petraeus spoke out last week. It has been major Muslim media outlets that have been all over this story for many weeks.

http://www.salon.com/news/politics/war_room/2010/09/10/terry_jones_koran_burn_timeline/index.html

My concern is that I think US media are actively trying to avoid covering this story for fear of the consequences, and apparently have the mistaken notion that if they don't cover the Koran burning story, it will go away.

It won't. All that will happen if media in the West fail to do their job and report what is happening is that people in the West will be ill-informed about what is happening.

[WCGreen]

107. well, I guess Jon Stewert agrees with me....

He compared the media to the dog from the movie Up.

You know the one who couldn't help himself, he had to chase the squirrel.

The media is just the like the dog, they can't help themselves, they have to chase the squirrel ...

[Codeine]

14. I would argue that the blame lies with the people who are killing

others over the issue.

[Rebubula]

18. That sort...

...of logic will not stand here.

I agree with you wholeheartedly. Anyone that kills someone over the actions\words of someone else - thousands of miles away - is a complete and utter moron.

I know that personal responsibility is a 4 letter word around here sometimes.

[Bragi]

19. Me too

I understand the dreadful "war on terror" context in which this is happening, and understand how this is viewed by many Muslims, and promoted by many Muslims, as a "war in Islam".

But I also think that people who threaten to harm others over the burning of a book, however sacred it may be to them, are ultimately responsible for any harm they do.

[wtmusic]

15. Blame enough to go around.

Blame for the people who patronize the media and fill their coffers; blame for the media for appealing to our baser instincts.

And ultimately, blame on the idiots who get murderous about someone burning a goddamn book.

Popes and Ayatollahs = witch doctors with funny hats.

[Turborama]

33. The "idiots who get murderous" appear to be the police/army who shot the protesters

But don't let that spoil the narrative of the barbaric Muslims running around savagely murdering people over some stupid book.

[Codeine]

46. The protesters who were burning buildings and attacking police.

But dont let that spoil your narrative of peaceful, put-upon Muslims savagely victimized by a man they've never met burning a book on the other side of the planet.

[Turborama]

58. Burning buildings & rioting against police deserve an instant death sentence do they?

Wow, are you sure you're on the right site?

[Codeine]

60. I don't support any police state thug tactics.

That's your strawman, so have fun kicking his ass. I simply will not countenance this being blamed on some semi-literate hillbilly burning a book. This is the responsibility of those who are shooting and those who are rioting. None of that is the the idiot pastor's fault.

[Turborama]

63. Just because you don't like the facts, does not make them a strawman. You support the pastor.

And don't blame him for any of this. Fine.

[Codeine]

68. The facts?

Which "fact" points to me supporting police state thuggery? That was your assertion.

[Turborama]

69. I didn't say you support "police state thuggery" but you did imply the protesters deserved it

As I said, I am just stating the facts. Facts that you are calling a strawman.

[Codeine]

72. You are the most obtuse individual on this board.

And THAT, sir, takes some doing.

[Turborama]

74. Resulting to ad hominems is a last resort in debating

I'm going to ignore this thread now because it's become like hanging around in frepperville.

[Codeine]

77. Yeah, God knows Freeperville is Free Speech Central

Jeeebus, are you for real?

[Turborama]

81. Yes, the tone of Islamophobia on this thread does make it seem like being in Freeperville

Also, all you ever talk about on DU is "free speech"

I've never seen you discuss anything else.

You're obsessed with it.

It's a big world out there.

Go out and experience some of it.

Seeing as your only interested in incessantly arguing and throwing around ad homs, I'm adding you to ignore. You'll only be talking to yourself if you reply to me from now on.

[Codeine]

83. Awww, diddums; I've been put on Ignore for being obsessed with free speech.

:rofl:

I fuckin' LOVE this place!!

[Bragi]

86. !!!!! A personal best? /nt

[crim son]

2. I believe you're wrong about suspending all complaints about

the inflammatory US media, however you make a good point and this is an excellent illustration of what you mean.

[Joanne98]

3. The US media is still to blame. They do everything Fox News does!

FOX started this with their PHONY ground zero mosque FAKE outrage story. The CNN pandered to the radical right and made it mainstream!

This happens with everything!

The media is soooooo screwed up and BAD for the country it can't even be saved at this point!

Break the media companies into LITTLE BITTY PIECES USING THE ANTI-TRUST ACT!

It's the only thing that will work!

[Botany]

7. Thank you Pastor Jones

So the death count is now up 16 .... 2 killed in a riot in Afghanistan by NATO troops as they were attacked
by an Islamic crowd that were told of Qu'ran burnings while at a Mosque a few days ago.

[saigon68]

8. US Media = Lap Dogs of US Corporate Rulers

The same bunch who brought us the "Bush Crime Family"

and THE AWOL CHIMPANZEE

[SpeechlessDem]

9. Idiots!

The book burners will be very happy by this news.
I mean think of it, if you are a book burning redneck, and a bunch of muslims died because of what you did out of hate.... wouldn't you be happy?

[HEyHEY]

11. I know people who work for Iranian media

And they'll tell you that the orders from above are to blow this up as big as possible.

[Bragi]

12. I think you are quite correct

I think Jones has been a 'useful idiot' for radical Muslim media and organizations.

They really didn't need the U.S media to make this a "success" for them.

Far as I can tell, the U.S media was not keen on the story to begin with, and is now scared as hell of it.

[chrisa]

16. Iran-based TV. I wonder if it's as bad as North Korean TV.

I wonder if they went full effect, and showed people turning into trolls and ripping apart the Koran with their pointed teeth?

[Turborama]

17. If they have internet access, all they have to do is go to DU's video forum n/t

[Arkansas Granny]

20. I didn't notice the US media trying to choke off this story. Every news and

political show I saw this weekend discussed it to some extent.

[Bragi]

22. What they choked off was coverage of events on Saturday

US cable news and major news outlets blacked out live coverage of the anti-Mosque (and anti-Muslim) protest in NYC on Saturday, and of the Koran abuses that took place there and elsewhere that same day.

The fiction they were selling was that Jones had backed off, so all was well.

Muslim media outlets didn't buy the fiction, and covered what happened, which is what has triggered the violence in India.

To be clear, I'm not trying to mount a big apologia for US or western media. Not at all.

My point is this: it is way too simplistic, and wrong, to claim that this is fundamentally a problem caused by irresponsible Western media. It isn't.

[Turborama]

23. I live in Indonesia and CNN International/Faux news have been covering it for weeks

As well as , BBC World, Al Jazeera English and Murdoch's British TV news channel Sky News.

[louis-t]

21. More blood on the pastor's hands.

Does he have any guilt over this?

[Codeine]

26. Who did the pastor kill?

When did he go to Kashmir?

[Rebubula]

27. Why Should he?

He is a douche bag and a moran - but he is no more responsible for these deaths than you are.

The only person responsible for ANY killings is the person that does the killing. PERIOD.



Edited for grammar.

[NoNothing]

28. No.

If I threaten to kill people if you (testify | cross the picket line | perform an abortion | sit at a lunch counter | vote in an election | commit a blasphemy), you do it anyways, and I go ahead and kill people, then the blood is entirely and completely on my hands.

[Turborama]

30. It's the protesters who have been killed. For Protesting. Plus one policeman.

No further details as yet.

If Jones hadn't started this in the 1st place, there would not have been a protest about it for them to be shot dead in.

[louis-t]

34. My point, exactly.

There are those here who would excuse 'pastor' Jones' behaviour under the heading "free speech". The man knew exactly what was going to happen.

[Phil The Cat]

108. If a religious zealot tells you not to do something

Otherwise, people will get hurt,

THEN DON'T DO IT!

Our primary motivation should be to satisfy others, not ourselves!

So if someone, particularly someone from a non-western culture says "Don't do it, or people will die!" we bloody well BETTER listen to them!

If they say, "Don't burn our holy book", THEN DON'T DO IT!

If they say, "Don't draw pictures of Muhammed", THEN DON'T DO IT!

If they say, "Don't pollute our pious culture with your western decadance", THEN DON'T DO IT!

If they say, "Don't lie with a man as if with a woman", THEN DON'T DO IT!

If they say, "Don't let your women out of the house dressed immodestly", THEN DON'T DO IT!

Whatever the demand is, the proper response is "Whatever you want!"

:sarcasm:

[louis-t]

109. The warnings I was talking about didn't come from zealots.

They were coming from moderates.

And by the way, if someone is made aware that their actions could cause the deaths of innocent people, you're saying they should go ahead anyway because they have 'rights'? Bush thought he had the 'right' to invade Iraq. Look how that turned out. Jeeez!

[Phil The Cat]

110. Murder is NOT a tool of tolerant people

If you KILL, or threaten to KILL someone because they are dissing your "sacred texts", you are a zealot! An extremist! FOr example, I'm not going to like it if someone burns "Calvin and Hobbes", but I am not going to hurt someone if they do!

Yes, the Koran burners are asswipes! To me, burning the Koran (or The Bible) is a lowlife move not because they are sacred texts, but because they are BOOKS! Whether it is Glenn Beck's latest dung pile or "The Revenge Of The Baby-Sat", books, as conveyors of information and opinion, have a special place among mankind's possessions!

So what IS your limitations of what we can and cannot do to avoid Islamist violence? Is there a certain percentage of people likely to get upset? For example, suppose someday we have an LGBT candidate for President! Beyond the problem of our own bigots, should we not support them because that might seriously cheese off Muslims?

[louis-t]

111. You know, I'm really getting sick of the phony 'rationalists' here.

People have been twisting my statements into straw man arguments lately. Let me say it so even phony rationalists can understand. THE GUY KNEW THAT PEOPLE WOULD BE KILLED IF HE WENT AHEAD WITH HIS BOOK BURNING AND HE DIDN'T BACK DOWN UNTIL THE LAST MINUTE SO HE COULD GET SOME CHEAP PUBLICITY HOPING TO CASH IN ON DONATIONS TO HIS PHONY CHURCH TO PAY OFF HIS DEBTS. THE BOOK BURNING WOULD ACCOMPLISH NOTHING EXCEPT GETTING HIM HIM SOME ATTENTION. THERE IS NO CHANCE THAT HIS ACTIONS WOULD CAUSE OUR GOVERNMENT TO, SAY, BAN THE KORAN. YEAH, IT'S A FRIGGIN' BOOK, BUT HE KNEW WELL AHEAD OF TIME WHAT THE REACTION WOULD BE, AND GETTING TEABAGGER FACE TIME WAS MORE IMPORTANT TO HIM. I WOULD NOT BE SURPRISED TO SEE HIS PEANUT SIZED REPUBLICAN HEAD POP UP AGAIN RIGHT BEFORE THE ELECTIONS LOOKING FOR MORE PUBLICITY. Got any more straw man arguments? Maybe you can twist some of my words again.

[NoNothing]

41. So?

It wasn't Jones who killed them, or told people to kill them, or even advocated that anyone kill them. He didn't force anyone to demonstrate, he didn't didn't force anyone to witness it, he didn't even force anyone to *know* about it, who would prefer to remain ignorant. Blaming Jones for these deaths is a bit like blaming Arch-Duke Ferdinand for starting WWI.

[Turborama]

43. Wow, DUers coming out to defend "pastor" Jones. This place is changing beyond all recognition

If Jones hadn't started this in the 1st place, there would not have been a protest about it for them to be shot dead in.

Why is that so difficult to understand?

[Codeine]

45. Defending free expression? Who would ever have guessed?!

:eyes:

[louis-t]

112. You've GOT to be kidding.

He made a big deal about it to get attention. He did interview after interview. If he just wanted to do the action, he would have just done it and not said "on Sept. 11, I'm going to..." So, what you're saying is: if Archduke Ferdinand had known that his driving through the streets of Sarajevo (aside from getting him killed) was going to start a war, he should do it anyway because he has a 'right'?

[Codeine]

42. Or they were rational enough not to get their panties in a wad

over some dude they'll never meet in a nation they'll never visit burning a book then none of it would ever have occurred.

[Turborama]

48. Jones started this. Protesters against it have been shot dead. That is what has happened.

Dogma about the freedom to behave as disgustingly as humanly possible is as dangerous as religious dogma.

No matter how much people try to defend and give apologetics for Jones' actions. He. is. culpable.

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NoNothing]

54. All I can say, Turborama, is that you had better agree with me

Or I'll go out and kill some people. And their blood will be on YOUR hands.

EDIT::sarcasm:

[Turborama]

57. Lame. No protesters have gone out to kill people. Protesters have been shot. For protesting.

Against what Jones started.

[NoNothing]

61. And who took away their right to protest?

It wasn't Jones, was it?

Do you think Jones cares if they peacefully protest him? Shit, he probably welcomes the publicity.

Jones is not a good guy, but in the pantheon of evil, corrupt authoritarian fuckfaces rank a little higher. It was corrupt authoritarian fuckfaces that killed these protestors, and you seem to be excusing their evil because one little loony halfway around the globe hurt their feelings.

[Turborama]

66. I'm not excusing anyone, just stating the facts. You are going all out to excuse Jones, though.

I hope you're enjoying your extremely narrow world.

[Codeine]

70. Jones didn't do anything that justified a riot, or even a building-burning protest.

My "narrow view" accepts that those douchebags have a right to burn effigies of Obama (even though he was against the burning of the Quran -- real geniuses we're dealing with here) and the the illiterate pastor has the right to burn a book.

Should I organize a protest and burn down some buildings because they burned the Obama effigy? If it turned violent would the blood then be on their hands?

[Turborama]

71. I wasn't talking to you

You're acting like a troll now.

[Codeine]

73. You're on a public discussion board.

If you do not want to be responded to then PM that person, otherwise your comments will be part of the thread and open to response.

[Turborama]

76. Yes, but you were replying as if I was talking to you.

Which I wasn't.

[Codeine]

79. I was replying to your statement.

Cope.

[Turborama]

82. But the statement wasn't contextually aimed at you so your reply was just arguing for arguing's sake

Goodbye.

[Codeine]

84. You're a silly man. nt

[totodeinhere]

88. "Arguing for arguing's sake" is what is done on a message board like this.

It is to be expected.

[Turborama]

89. For some, maybe

Not me. I like debating for debating's sake.

[Codeine]

92. Or being an apologist for apologists sake.

Wait -- you can't see that! :rofl:

[Turborama]

24. Warnings posted by me during the week of Tue Aug-17-10

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=8960115&mesg_id=8960507">A Möbius strip of hate

A couple of days later I used that reply as the main theme for this OP: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8976871">Faux Is Very Dangerous! Their Propaganda War On Islam Is Broadcast Unfiltered ALL OVER THE WORLD

Faux news (a US media channel) is largely responsible for the fomentation of the current rise in Islamophobia (and for existing Islamophobes to feel it's ok to come out of the closet). Not only that, anyone with an internet connection can read Pamela Geller's hate blog and read the online versions NYT, LA Times, Washington Post which have been charting the rise in America's attacks on Mosques and Muslims for months.

[Turborama]

25. So far, I have read that 16 protesters have been shot dead by police/army

In Afghanistan and Kashmir. And 1 policeman has died in Kashmir. No further details on how these deaths occurred.

Protesters are being shot dead. I wonder how well that would go down in America. :shrug:

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bragi]

31. Iran to issue "ultimatum" on disrespect of Quran

A rally against the burning of the Holy Quran will be held in Iran tomorrow at 4pm, Iranian Deputy Minister of Culture and Islamic Guidance Hamid Mohammadi was quoted by Iranian news agency İQNA as saying...

Mohammadi said that protests will be held in 12 Iranian provinces as well as in Tehran. He said that the Tehran rally will be held on Palestine Square. At the end of the meeting an ultimatum criticizing those who show disrespect to the Holy Quran will be distributed.

<http://en.trend.az/news/islam/1749739.html>

[Turborama]

32. Well, maybe Jones has achieved something after all

Uniting the Iranians against the US without the US having to drop one single bomb.

Just as we're pulling our troops out of one of their neighboring countries and adding them to another. Genius.

[slackmaster]

36. All this because someone merely threatened to desecrate their sacred text

Some people take their religion a bit too seriously.

[Bragi]

38. No, it's because there *were* desecrations of the Quran

The US media did their best to put out the story on the weekend that since Jones had backed down, the whole controversy was behind us. At the same time, they minimized coverage of the instances of desecration that did take place.

In fact, however, several desecrations did take place, and the story naturally was reported to the Muslim world through unfriendly media outlets abroad. The protests now appear to be focused on the desecrations that did, unfortunately, occur.

One of the bad consequences that may result from the decision of U.S media not to fully report what was happening is that a lot of Americans probably won't understand why the protests are taking place, since they were told by their media that Jones backed off, and the whole thing was over.

I think this illustrates why it is dangerous for media in a free country to decide to self-censor itself even before events occur.

[Turborama]

40. Which "unfriendly media outlets" are you blaming this on?

I know the OP mention Iranian TV but you are speaking in the plural.

BTW DU's political videos forum has a video of some Nazi wannabe burning some pages from the Qur'an. Anyone who has an internet connection can watch it right here on DU.

[slackmaster]

56. My statement about some people taking their religion too seriously stands

:hi:

[Bragi]

59. You'll get no counter-argument from me /nt

[totodeinhere]

90. No, I don't understand. It's just a book. To violently protest the burning of that book of fairy

tales is irrational. And I would say the same thing if there were protests against the burning of the Christian bible. People need to get a grip. With all of the problems of poverty and war in this world, people are all a twitter over the burning of a book? Come on now.

[totodeinhere]

91. That's the nature of fundamentalism, whether it's Muslim or Christian.

Fundies take it way too seriously. But Christian fundies seem to take a much harsher rap at DU than Muslim fundies do. Why that is I don't know.

[NoNothing]

94. The "why" is obvious:

Because a lot of people on this board believe that the Enemy of my Enemy is my Friend. I mean, sure Islamic fundamentalists kill and torture people and establish theocracies and riot over free speech. But they aren't voting Republican, now, are they?

[totodeinhere]

95. I think you have a point. But the irony is that Muslim fundies aren't much different

from our teabaggers. So if they were in this country they probably would be voting Republican.

[Turborama]

39. 18 PROTESTERS SHOT DEAD. HUNDREDS WOUNDED. BY INDIAN POLICE

Just reported on BBC World. They said the number of dead protesters is sure to rise because a lot of the injured are likely to die.

Story here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-11280132

[Bragi]

44. Some important context

The article makes it clear that these protests were not "peaceful" protests:

...In Monday's protests, thousands of people defied curfews and took to the streets, chanting anti-India and anti-US slogans and burning effigies of US President Barack Obama, our correspondent says.

An angry mob set fire to several government buildings and a Protestant-run school, as well as attacking a police station, he adds.

[Turborama]

49. They weren't murderous protests, either. How many innocent people have these protesters killed?

Destruction of property does not deserve the death penalty.

[Codeine]

51. Funny that you blame the pastor

instead of the idiots creating all the havoc or the police state thugs killing them.

Your priorities are all fucked up.

[Turborama]

53. Funny you are protecting the insane "pastor" when I'm stating facts about what happened

You only have one priority and it's making your world view very narrow.

[Codeine]

62. Your priority is justifying violence and stifling free expression.

Have fun with that.

[Turborama]

65. Where have justified violence & tried to stifle "free expression"?

I have been decrying the violence of the police. Shooting the protesters. Dead.

I just like being objective and having a more worldly view. Life is a lot more enjoyable that way.

[Bragi]

52. They murdered one student, age 12 or 13, so far

Several of the deaths were reported to have occurred in Budgam district, with others reported in the village of Tangmarg, where the (missionary) school was burned.

One of those killed was a student aged 12 or 13, our correspondent says.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-11280132

[Turborama]

55. Context shows that the student was shot by the police

Police fired live ammunition to break up the demonstrations, and confirmed that 18 civilians had been killed.

Several of the deaths were reported to have occurred in Budgam district, with others reported in the village of Tangmarg, where the school was burned.

One of those killed was a student aged 12 or 13, our correspondent says.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-11280132

[Vehl]

64. Why are people protesting the actions of an idiot half a world away???

Ok, I can understand that people do get angry when their religious books get burnt, but they should also realize that this is an action of some idiot and not condoned by America as a whole.


So why are they burning Obama's effigy when he was so vocal in denouncing the actions of the pastor???
what the hell! It makes no sense....Beating up the person who supported your view on this matter!


Even though I loath the idiotic actions of this pastor, i equally loath the idiotic actions of those who get so worked up over this. I really do not understand...maybe its cos I'm from a worldview that does care what others do with my "religious symbols"...but what are these protesters implying? that somehow they are affected by the action of some person in another part of the world?. In today's world anyone can get access to anything..be it holy books or holy symbols...i couldn't care less if some wacko burnt something I respect. What would I lose if someone burns something? nothing.


Dont they(protesters) realize that the pastor and his ilk Want protests like this to happen? They would be snickering about this...thinking "look at these people..they fell for it hook, line and sinker". And why are they attacking Indian government offices, police station and a School?? If i rem correctly the Indian government actually condemned the action of this pastor a while back.


Unless they realize that they have fallen for the bait, they will continue to be pawns in the hands of neocons.

[Codeine]

67. Because they are the Islamic version of teabaggers.

They thrive on hate and anger just like our dumbasses do. That DU continually wants to make excuses for their stupid shit is shameful and pathetic.

[totodeinhere]

85. Yes, DU has a double standard.

Bash (and rightly so) Teabaggers in the United States, but give the same type of fundies in the Muslim world a pass.

[Codeine]

87. More than a pass; they are lauded. nt

[Vehl]

96. I agree that the teabaggers and these protesters are both sides of the same coin.

Both put religion over secular politics...and get worked up over things that no sane secular person would even bother about.

but these protesters are knowingly walking into a trap/bait set by the pastor. Who ends losing lives? the pastor or the protesters?
stopping and thinking for a few mins is all that takes for a person to see the pastor's provocation for what it really is...a bait..and a roundabout way of continuing the strife.

[Bragi]

75. Why are they attacking Obama, you ask?

You ask: So why are they burning Obama's effigy when he was so vocal in denouncing the actions of the pastor??? what the hell! It makes no sense....Beating up the person who supported your view on this matter!

I think they are protesting against Obama because they think that he could and should have prevented any Koran burnings from occurring.

As I understand it, in their culture and religion, desecrating the Koran is strictly prohibited. They likely neither understood, or would likely agree with, the notion that it was impossible for the President or law enforcement to stop Jones because his planned action, however offensive and stupid, constituted protected free speech.

So they are now attacking Obama for not doing that which he could not have done had he even wanted to.

(And if anyone wants to check, all last week I kept saying here that the administration was making a big mistake by simply condemning Jones and calling on him to not burn the Koran without also making it clear that Jones has a right to free expression, and could not legally be stopped.

As I stated at the time, the free speech message needed to get out as strongly as the condemnation message because even if Jones backed off, someone somewhere was going to burn a Koran, and the Muslim world needed to understand that this was not something that could be stopped by Obama or the government.

Alas, I don't think any administration spokesperson made a single reference to free speech last week, at least not that I saw. They have thus done precious little to properly set the stage for reacting to what is now happening, and what is likely to unfold in days to come, and they've made it easy for the radical Muslim groups to keep claiming that Obama could stop any and all Koran desecration if he wanted to.)

[Vehl]

97. good point

Maybe the Obama admin took it for granted that these people would have known that it could not do anything to impede free speech.

[Uncle Joe]

80. Because the people pulling the strings have politicized this for propaganda uses.

In a religion (any religion) of over a billion people, it's not difficult to find some brain washed zealots willing to play the part of aggrieved puppet; whether consciously or subconsciously.

[Vehl]

98. yeah

But these protesters are choosing the wrong targets though...i mean...a school and government offices/police station of another nation?

someone should tell them that the pastor is in America...not in India...and that the majority of Americans think that the pastor is a wingnut

[Bragi]

100. Maybe...

They also might have thought it unwise to "mix" messages, thinking that they couldn't get out both the condemnation and the free speech messages concurrently.

I can see someone making that argument, but I would have disagreed with it then, and think we are now seeing evidence that it might have been better to keep making both points.

Sometimes, simple doesn't work.

[Vehl]

102. yep

But on the other hand, i have reservations about the efficacy of such an action.(of Obama clearly stating that even though he does not like the actions of the Pastor, he cannot stop it due to free speech rights)

I have a feeling that the protesters would have protested regardless...but maybe not many would have burnt his effigy.

[Uncle Joe]

103. The propaganda they receive from their demagogues is no different than what we receive from ours.

Once your hate and fear is kicked in to high gear, reason flies out the window.

We had 15 Saudi Arabians; pledging allegiance to a terrorist group; which was at odds with the dictator Saddam Hussein and what did we do?

We attacked Iraq.

All our corporate media had to do in order to brainwash a majority of Americans; religious and secular in to believing Saddam Hussein was behind 9/11 was repeat those two words/numbers in the same sentence or paragraph repeatedly 24/7 over a long enough period of time.

They didn't even have to make a connection, ie: The tragedy of 9/11 changed everything and Saddam Hussein is an evil bastard!

[Skittles]

106. it's called RELIGIOUS NUTTERY

[Turborama]

78. Context: 'India represents fear and terror in Kashmir'

Lots of articles attesting to this here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4507370#4507503

[Vehl]

101. one has to also note that this is about muslims wanting to seperate from a secular state

Based on the simple reason that they are Muslims and should merge with other "muslim" nation (a.k.a pakistan) rather than be part of a secular state.

The non Muslim Kashmiris(actually the "native" Kashmiris) do not share this view however, and have been driven out of their land by those who prefer an Islamic state/merger with Pakistan

I can never accept a religious reason to separate from a secular democracy.Religion and politics should not mix.


I for one cannot understand how people could find brotherhood with someone halfway around the world just because they share the same religion.

The Kashmiri Muslims and the ones running Pakistan(Overwhelmingly punjabi) don't share much in the way of ethnicity or blood ties...the only link they have is religion. Thus their "politics" are based on religion. I can understand if someone is arguing from the base of one's language/ethnicity etc etc..but to say that they need to secede and join some other nation because of religion is absurd and archaic in the extreme.

religion and politics ought not mix...and if they do, the result is quite explosive.

For all their claims against India, the % of Islamic people in India is higher than it was right after partition.whereas the % of minority religions in Pakistan(be it Christian or Hindu) is almost non-existent now compared to its original %. The horror stories of the overt discrimination minorities in Pakistan face are legion. I do not want to clutter this post with links, but a simple Google search would suffice.

lets not even get into the rights minorities have...in fact i could name a couple of presidents/prime ministers of India who were Muslim. The current one is a minority as well.

what do those from Kashmir(who want to join Pakistan) plan to achieve? they are but pawns in a game by Pakistan (and china as well) which use them in order to try destabilize India. If Pakistan is such a heaven as they claim it to be..why is it almost over-run by the Taliban and their ilk?..with the government barely holding onto power...and lets not forget the recent wiki-leaks info about how the Pakistani ISI diverts funds to support the Taliban against both America, as well as mujaheddin against India?
Are these the actions of a responsible government?..a government that is fighting quite a few insurgencies itself...namely that of the Balochi people against Pakistan. Maybe Pakistan should try to have 20 years of civilian rule in one stretch before trying to acquire more land.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balochistan_conflict


Kashmiris , regardless of religion, would reap more benefits by being part of a democratic nation than saddling themselves with one which seems to have used up a lot of its many lives.



ps: latter part of my post taken from one of my earlier posts on the thread you linked to. (was lazy to type it again :D )

[Codeine]

That is all far too logical for DU purposes.

You'll need some element of screed thrown in there if you want it to fly around these parts. :D

[Codeine]

104. dupity dupe dupe dupe

[outerSanctum]

93. At least there were no Americans among the killed and wounded!

n/t

[LanternWaste]

99. Cause and effect...

Cause and effect.

Cause was discussed and analyzed, this effect predicted more than a handful of times, and still we deny ourselves that hate begets hate.

[Skittles]

105. religious nuttery

:puke: