"H.I.V." Was in Monkeys for Millennia: Why Didn't We Get Sick?

[Elmore Furth]

Source: CBS News

The precursor to H.I.V., the virus that causes AIDS, may be older than you think. Way older.

According to new research, simian immunodeficiency virus (S.I.V.) has been in monkeys for millennia, potentially putting humans at risk for the last 32,000 years and possibly much longer.

And yet, for all that time, humans didn't get sick in mass. Only in the 20th century did H.I.V. become a global scourge that has claimed 25 million lives.

According to the New York Times, for as long as monkeys have had S.I.V., humans who have butchered them have put themselves at risk of infection from a mutated form. But because the infected people in Africa were fairly isolated, the chances for an epidemic were small. That changed, some theorize, with the explosive growth of African cities and wide spread use of cheap syringes.


Read more: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504763_162-20016790-10391704.html

---

According to the experts, humans have probably been contracting HIV from monkeys for thousands of years but the disease did not spread because the transfer of bodily fluids was unlikely to transmit the disease over wide areas. This all changed with modern drug addiction, travel and sexual promiscuity.


According to the NY Times:

The new research, published Thursday in Science magazine, was relatively simple. Scientists tested 79 monkeys from Bioko, a volcanic island 19 miles off the West African coast. Bioko used to be the end of a peninsula attached to the mainland in what is now Cameroon, but it was cut off when sea levels rose 10,000 years ago at the end of the last ice age.

Since then, six monkey species have developed in isolation on the island, and scientists from the National Primate Research Center at Tulane University in Louisiana and other American and African universities found that four of them — drills, red-eared guenons, Preuss’s guenons and black colobuses — had members that were infected with S.I.V.

The four strains in the four species were genetically very different from one another — meaning they presumably did not come from monkeys carried over to the island by humans in the last few centuries. But each was close to the strain infecting members of the same four genuses on the mainland, meaning they must have existed before Bioko was cut off.

Knowing that all four strains were at least 10,000 years old, scientists recalculated the virus’s “molecular clock,” measuring how fast it mutates. They now believe that all the S.I.V. strains infecting monkeys and apes across Africa diverged from a common ancestor between 32,000 and 78,000 years ago.

Precursor to H.I.V. Was in Monkeys for Millennia

[Schema Thing]

1. there hadn't been a Republican congressional delegation

to the Congo previously.

[femrap]

14. And didn't one

of them engage in beastology? Maybe Vitter's papa? Isn't that how it got transferred to humans?

[RaleighNCDUer]

2. Tin foil hat time: Because before the 1950s there was no CIA to

manipulate the virus to infect African anti-colonial rebels, who then infected Cuban soldiers in Angola in the 70s, who then infected neighboring Haiti, etc., etc., etc.

[99th_Monkey]

8. You beat me to it. n/t

[Richard Steele]

30. Bingo. nm

[Warpy]

3. A lot of things combined to help it break out

of the pattern of a rare illness in isolated pockets of Africa: roads, the destruction of the native culture and the separation of men from their wives for long periods of time, an economy that allowed prostitution to thrive as the status of women fell, and all the other wonderful things European colonialism did to Africa. It's unlikely, as the article points out toward the end, that reusing syringes had much to do with it.

Likely the virus had made the leap to rare people during the butchery of bush meat from time to time in precolonial times, but it took colonialism for it to take hold in the human population and spread efficiently.

[newscott]

20. I read last night

That one of the reasons was the rise of urban centers in Africa. This was not the case before the early 1900s. Most people were spread out. Those who got AIDS then weren't exposing others to it as readily. With the advent of the metropolis in Africa AIDS began to become more common. That's one theory I read.

[alcibiades_mystery]

4. Kinshasa highway + airplanes + better epidemiology = global pandemic

[RaleighNCDUer]

6. Which is what makes Marburg and ebola so scary.

The only thing that's kept them from exploding is they kill too quickly and efficiently. A disease that doesn't manifest for years has all kinds of time to spread.

Makes me wonder - there are signs of vanished cultures across Africa with no explanation of what happened to them. What was the impetus behind the great migration from East Africa into southern Africa in the 12th century?

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

36. mostly climate n/t

[Javaman]

5. Population growth and expansion into once remote areas.

Take Marberg hemorrhagic disease. As little as 30 years ago, the cases reported were few and far between. Now there are "outbreaks" in various parts of Africa. Why?

Because once remote areas of Africa, aren't all that remote anymore.

Combine that with large populated cities and the shortened travel time to any where in the world.

And poof, you have cased being reported everywhere.

Diseases are like water, they will follow the most efficient and quickest route.

[Dogmudgeon]

34. The evolutionary pressure is toward less lethal strains

Disease organisms that kill their hosts are less likely to spread to new hosts. The common cold is a series of several very well adapted, "successful" viral infections.

The problem is that with slow viruses like HIV and the lentiviruses, this particular manner of natural selection is very inefficient. But the possibility of a quicker viral disease wiping out its reservoir of hosts is very real, too. Any mode of transmission of a lethal virus will kill a lot of organisms (read: people) while natural selection is happening, quickly or slowly.

So I would expect to see progressively milder strains of the hemorrhagic infections to emerge soon, if they haven't already. I know, that's cold comfort to the survivors. But the very fact that HIV is a long-latency virus may explain why it took so long to become established in the human population.

--d!

[Drale]

7. if this is true

then it is very possible that it couldn't effect humans before and only relatively recently mutated to effect human.

[mrarundale]

9. No correlation between HIV and "AIDS"

Why else would a "virus" act totally different on different continents? Huge profits for pharmaceutical companies. People die from the drugs themselves and, in Africa, from environmental factors caused by western companies...

[aquart]

11. It does NOT act differently on different continents.

They are dying in droves in Africa because they do NOT get the drugs.

[RZM]

12. What is your evidence for this?

How can you account for your hypothesis that HIV and AIDS are not connected?

[valerief]

17. O'Donnell said so. She's the new AIDS and Mouse-Human Hybrid expert.

:rofl:

[Odin2005]

23. LOL!

:rofl:

[Terry in Austin]

24. Have a nice stay

Don't let the door hit ya!

:spank:

[LostinVA]

29. zzzzzzzzzzzz

[girl gone mad]

10. There has long been evidence of human infections that pre-date..

the 80s outbreak, so it was around, even in America, decades before it became an epidemic.

[RZM]

13. Indeed

I think a British sailor died of it in the 1950s. That's the earliest case in the West I've heard of.

[happyslug]

39. And that was a 1959 case and he only traveled to Leningrad

That is a weird case, the Doctor that treated him (I think he was 19 and made only one trip) tried to treat him, but he died. The case always haunted him so he kept a tissue of the sailor just in case a similar set of cases would arise. When AIDS was first detected in the west, he was still practicing and after a few years remembered that sailor and decided to test that sample for AIDS, it reacted positively (anti bodies developed showing it had been exposed to the AIDS virus).

Now the Scientific American Article I read about the case was about 10-15 years ago. This was in the time period when it was still believed the AIDS Virus mutated from a non-lethal virus to a lethal virus when some one died of AIDS. Today, the theory is AIDS is a constantly changing virus, what happens is someone gets AIDs, that almost kills him, but his body fights off the attack, but then AIDs outer coat changes and the Body has to treat it as a new infection. i.e. New anti-bodies must be made to fight off this new version. Each time the AIDS virus changes, it slowly gets stronger and the body weaker. Finally when AIDs kills someone, that person tend to have at least two form of AIDS, a weak, previously thought of as a non-lethal form of AIDS, and a newer and "Stronger" one that in the 1980s and 1990s was though to be the second deadly type of AIDs.

Anyway this Scientific America Article pointed out another problem, there seems to be a partial immunity to AIDs among Europeans, the percentage of people with this limited immunity goes up as you go North and East in Europe.

Now other article have presented the following facts that affected how AIDs could have spread AND not spread before 1970. First immunity implies exposure. This impose that this is a Russian disease, probably kept in check in Russia do to the strict controls the Russian Government had over its Citizens under both the Czars and the Communists. Another factor is that Northern and Eastern Europe have a very strict definition Homosexuality, if you have sex with anyone any how with a person of the same sex you are a Homosexual. Southern Europe, the Mid East and Africa (and the Prisoners in the US Prison system) have a different definition, i.e. a man doing the penetrating is NOT a Homosexual, but the man he is penetrating is a Homosexual. This differenced in definition impose Northern and Eastern Europe had a greater fear of same sex intercourse then did Southern Europeans, Mideastern and Africans.

Another factor is how a disease spread among a population that has NEVER been exposed to it. The Classic example in Small Pox and the Native Americans. Small Pox ended up killing up to 90% of the Native Populations within 100 years of Columbus, while Europeans still died of the disease (and feared it) Europeans did NOT die in the numbers as the Native Americans. Two factors kicked in, first immunity do to previous exposure, second, European living styles kept people further apart then did Native American Living styles of the same time period (Europeans tended to live in separate homes, Native Americans in one large common house). This difference in living style also affected how Small Pox spread.

I bring up Small Pox for when compared to AIDS, both should spread the widest among those populations that NEVER exposed to it, i.e. in regards to AIDs, why it has spread among africans AND South East Asians, but in much smaller numbers in Europe and America and other countries which MAY have been exposed to AIDS before 1900.

Now, if that is true how did AIDS get to Africa and Southeast Asia in the 1970s? The answer is simple, the Soviet Union saw both areas where the ongoing Cold war was being fought and provided military advisors and other people to support who ever looked to Russia for support against the US. At the same time, ever since the death of Stalin, Russia had embraced a concept of everyone being Soviets NOT any other nationality. With its adoption of true Universal Military Service (To include non-slavs not only as recruits BUT as Officers) a lot of people in previously restricted areas of Russia had a chance to go elsewhere. Someone who had AIDS, took it with him to Africa and someone else with a different type of AIDS took it to Southeast Asia. These two people were either Homosexuals OR somehow it entered the Homosexual community of both regions and took off. It even worked its way back to Russia (Russia trace most of its AIDS to a Soldier who brought it back form overseas, but given the lack of money the Russian medical service received under Stalin and Breshev AIDs could have existed, but the person with it was just left to die and reported as a death of unknown causes, if not alcoholism, and NO research as to why these people were dieing was ever done).

Side NOTE: In the early 1960s Russia did a survey on age of death and found for the first time since the revolution of 1917, that people were dieing earlier then in the previous survey, the Politburo classified the survey and subsequent surveys which continued to find the same unpleasant facts, given this background no one in Russia in the 1960s till the 1990s were going to find any new disease).

Just a comment, that AIDS may be a Russian (or more actually a Eurasian) disease that had a limited spread do to culture, law restriction as to movement and the low level of medical care that still exists in Russia. AIDs could have spread from Monkeys 30,000 years ago but in a group and somehow moved to the Steppes of Russia and remain there in a restricted group till one of the group was sent overseas (and may be two groups given the difference between AIDs in African and Southeast Asia).

Another angle, the Barbers of Africa have genes indicating a set of Blonds moved to North Africa 30,000 years ago, could AIDs have developed in that group, some remaining in the Steppes of Russia. AIDs died out among the group in North Africa but somehow it was spread to Monkeys? Monkeys will eat meat, it is NOT their first choice of food but they will eat it, a died person with aids, eaten by Monkeys would have been enough to get into the monkey population. i.e. it was man to monkey not monkey to man, and over thousand of years both sets of AIDs evolved to affect their hosts in such a way as to spread AIDS among those host population only.

Now the Vandals made a similar move in 460 AD, but it is NOT believed they interacted with the Barbers, but these may be the groups where the blond genes come from in the Barbers, but most historian think it is older then the vandals.

[ClarkUSA]

15. The Ebola virus originated in monkeys, too. The transmission vector may be similar. nt

[valerief]

16. Oh, yeah, those cavemen weren't at all sexually promiscuous.

This all changed with modern drug addiction, travel and sexual promiscuity.

[Delphinus]

26. That thing about

sexual promiscuity was what I was coming to post - thanks!

[closeupready]

18. Right, because only recently were people sexually promiscuous. Damn you, Sarah Jessica Parker!

:sarcasm:

[closeupready]

19. And also, I like how they sidestep the existence of condoms since antiquity.

Sexual promiscuity - with or without condoms - spreads HIV, according to this article.

How irresponsible.

But of course, this is the paper where Judith Miller helped spread the WMD lies. So, hey, what's the big deal, right? :mad:

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[xchrom]

22. greater access in and out of remote areas.

it's a very simple formula -- and in this case simplicity worked all too well.

[Terry in Austin]

25. But then where did the monkeys get it from? -nt

[BadgerKid]

27. Possibly mutations/natural selection. n/t

[HCE SuiGeneris]

28. "...humans didn't get sick in mass" ???

Um, what? Mr. Katz has some 'splaining to do.

[boppers]

32. editorial fail

"en masse"

...which leads me to estimate that the credibility of the rest of the piece is suspect.

[jxnmsdemguy65]

31. For more information on this, I urge folks to read the book, "Dr. Mary's Monkey"...

How the Unsolved Murder of a Doctor, a Secret Laboratory in New Orleans and Cancer-Causing Monkey Viruses are Linked to Lee Harvey Oswald, the JFK Assassination and Emerging Global Epidemics

http://doctormarysmonkey.com/index.htm

[Mimosa]

37. I recommend that book too. n/t

[Cleobulus]

40. What the fuck is a Monkey virus? I decided to look up this book, because I was curious...

typical pseudo-scientific twaddle trying to make a buck by creating a conspiracy theory that literally makes no sense.

[XemaSab]

33. The depressing thought I had is that

back in the day people didn't live long enough to spread it effectively.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

35. Anyone want to know what I was taught in school in 1987 on the origins of AIDS?

In 1987 when I was Junior we were taught that AIDS was spread out of Africa by male flight attendants who unable to find partners while traveling in Africa (where there were no homosexuals) would have sex with monkeys.

This was printed in a textbook, but I was a little skeptical at the time. My aunt a prominent public health official invented the "face palm" when I showed her this. Earlier that week she had been interviewed by a TV station reporting that it was caused by voodoo.

[Odin2005]

38. It likely jumped via chimp blood because of the bushmeat trade

A hunter got some chimp blood on a cut, the hunter had sex with some prostitutes, other men got infected by the prostitute...