Chavez criticizes those "joyful" over rebel's death

[Enrique]

Source: Dow Jones

CARACAS -(Dow Jones)- Venezuela President Hugo Chavez, commenting for the first time on this week's killing of a commander in Colombia's main Marxist rebel group, criticized those who are "joyful" over his death.

"One shouldn't be joyful of the death of anyone," Chavez said Friday night at an event broadcast on state television.

Colombia on Thursday boasted that its troops killed 57-year-old Mono Jojoy, aka Jorge Briceno, the top field marshal of the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, or FARC, in an air and ground assault on a major rebel camp.

"Mono Jojoy is dead," Colombian President Juan Manuel Santos told reporters Thursday, adding that it was "the most devastating blow ever dealt to the FARC."

On Friday, U.S. President Barack Obama called it a "big day" for Colombia and praised the "outstanding work" of its military, which receives strong U.S. support and funding.

Chavez said he hopes that Colombia continues to work toward a peace deal with the rebels and hopes "they don't continue killing here and there."

(...)

Read more: http://www.nasdaq.com/aspx/stock-market-news-story.aspx?storyid=201009250830dowjonesdjonline000219&title=chavez-criticizes-those-joyfulover-killing-of-colombia-rebel#ixzz10YSo2eCL


Read more: http://www.nasdaq.com/aspx/stock-market-news-story.aspx?storyid=201009250830dowjonesdjonline000219&title=chavez-criticizes-those-joyfulover-killing-of-colombia-rebel#ixzz10YSo2eCL

[davidinalameda]

1. wonder if St. Hugo is so upset about the people FARC has killed over the years

[Cirque du So-What]

3. Wonder if YOU're upset over the people killed by Colombian RW paramilitaries over the years?

I'm open to comparing numbers, if you're interested.

[NashVegas]

12. You Know, The Ones Our Tax Dollars Train?

I guess it's only natural, for people who happily accept that little fact to enjoy the return on investment.

[Riftaxe]

44. That makes using children as human bombs...

OK in your mind?

[bitchkitty]

49. I'll be watching for his reply.

But you know what? There won't be one, because he can't justify his irrational hatred of a democratically elected leader. It's crazy, huh?

[Enrique]

4. probably so, along with almost everyone in the region

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7443080.stm

(...)

In his weekly television and radio programme on Sunday, Mr Chavez urged the Farc's new leader, Alfonso Cano, to "let all these people go".

"There are old folk, women, sick people, soldiers who have been prisoners in the mountain for 10 years," he added.

The Venezuelan president said ending the rebellion could lead to a peace process between the rebels and the Colombian government.

"The guerrilla war is history," he said. "At this moment in Latin America, an armed guerrilla movement is out of place."

(...)

[Ken Burch]

73. FARC and the Colombian government have achieved moral parity

Neither has any greater claim to legitimacy than the other. Which is no credit to either.

It's silly to put it all on FARC. FARC wouldn't exist if the Colombian aristocracy didn't have a death grip on power.

[TiredOldMan]

2. So says the guy whose enemies tend to "disappear".

[Enrique]

5. wow, you must rely on some fantastic sources

so now Chavez disappears his enemies.

[Billy Burnett]

6. By converting them.

:fistbump:

http://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/5608

{snip}

The policies of the Chavez government are focused on eradicating poverty and misery as a first and essential step towards national development and progress. More than 60% of oil profits today are invested in social programs, providing free, quality healthcare and education to all Venezuelans; creating job-training programs and new forms of employment through worker-run businesses and cooperatives; and ensuring food security and sovereignty through a recuperation and expansion of the nation’s agricultural industry together with state-run supermarkets and distribution centers that ensure basic food products are accessible and affordable to all.

Extreme poverty has been reduced by more than 50% during the past ten years, and Venezuela’s literacy program has been hailed as a “model for the world” by the United Nations. Today, Venezuelans are eating better, are better educated, have more buying power and are actively participating in their political and social processes. A new model of communal economy, where communities run their own markets, banks and local services, is being created in order to change the mentality of entitlement imposed by the paternal oil state.

[sulphurdunn]

7. Huh?

"One shouldn't be joyful of the death of anyone,"

Where is the flaw in that sentiment, even if you are a killer?

[Warren Stupidity]

9. Ok please post your verifiable sources that document this assertion

or else admit that you are just making shit up.

[Judi Lynn]

14. You've got some research ahead of you, clearly.

You have confused leftist Hugo Chavez with the long, sordid, painful history of right-wing dictators and military dictatorships, and the right-wing Colombian government. Very sad, and unexpected mistake. Even his despicable right-wing opposition in Venezuela never has attempted that ambitious accusation against him yet.

[Enrique]

81. where'd he go?

I hope Hugo didn't "get" TiredOldMan. :scared:

[Judi Lynn]

83. Oh, yeah! Horrible! He just might sneak up on people in his "car of death."

http://chickasawplum.homestead.com.nyud.net:8090/files/essays/archive_07/06_07_cooking_with_rice_files/image002.jpg
What a shame! Well, it's better not to make wild accusations of people who have NEVER been accused of killing political opponents in the first place!

Spooky! :scared:

People looking for missing political dissidents have to go only as far as US-financed Colombia, right next door to Venezuela.

[boppers]

97. "people who have NEVER been accused of killing political opponents"

February 4th, 1992.

14 dead, 130 injured.

[Judi Lynn]

98. In a coup against a man who had ordered his military to fire directly into crowds of protesting

Venezuelan citizens.

Carlos Andres Perez is responsible for having killed around 3,000 people in El Caracazo Massacre in February, 1989, a filthy day of infamy for the country.

He had his military deliberately aim at and MURDER Venezuelan people. PERIOD.

People attempted to overthrow him TWICE. Gee, one wonders why. Well, not if they are right-wing anal assholes. They all point to a man who attempted to overthrow the bastard.

That bastard was later impeached and put in prison for massive corruption. He's still a big fave with the right-wing scum of Venezuela.

Wiki:
The Caracazo or sacudón is the name given to the wave of protests, riots and looting and ensuing massacre<1> that occurred on 27 February 1989 in the Venezuelan capital Caracas and surrounding towns. The riots — the worst in Venezuelan history — resulted in a death toll of anywhere between 275 and 3,000 deaths,<2> mostly at the hands of security forces. The main reason for the protests were the neoliberal, pro-market reforms imposed by the government of Carlos Andrés Pérez.<3>

More:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caracazo

Carlos Andres Perez, Februrary, 1989, 3000 dead, innumerable Venezuelan citizens injured.

http://www.soberania.org.nyud.net:8090/Images/caracazo_2.jpg http://www.hollow-hill.com.nyud.net:8090/sabina/images/caracazo-victims.jpg http://causaabierta.blogia.com.nyud.net:8090/upload/20100319182534-caracazo.jpg http://www.vtv.gov.ve.nyud.net:8090/files/imagecache/caracazo-4_0.gif

http://2.bp.blogspot.com.nyud.net:8090/_GOKpcfaGHCM/R8XhWMAe9zI/AAAAAAAAAJY/N_ZqO0J0zT4/s320/El%2BCaracazo.jpg http://www.vtv.gob.ve.nyud.net:8090/files/imagecache/CaracazoMaya110909.jpg http://3.bp.blogspot.com.nyud.net:8090/_InUEU_sc-Z0/SbWcdO9zkzI/AAAAAAAAAG0/y4Kc8VKrMb0/s400/caracazo1.jpg
Odd you are always able to bring one of the two coups up, but it always slips your mind the coup was against a man who turned upon the poor of Venezuela.

[boppers]

99. I don't have to bring up Perez, because so few paint him as an innocent.

If people started claiming that Perez never took up arms and killed his opponents, I'd have to interject with facts there, as well.

[sabrina 1]

27. You have something to back that up?

Or were you talking about the Colombian government and all those mass graves that have been found there? I am not aware of anyone 'disappearing' in Venezuela because of being an enemy of the president there.

How do you feel about those thousands found in Colombia, slaughtered by government forces btw?

[Francesca9]

86. Why are we discussing Columbia?

[sabrina 1]

88. So you don't have anything to back up the claim

that political enemies of Chavez have disappeared? Didn't think so.

[The Magistrate]

76. You Have One Hell Of An Imagination, Fella....

[Pavulon]

8. He is joyful he is still juicing his family in psoh jobs..

google his brothers and mom, see where they are.

[Warren Stupidity]

10. "juicing his family in psoh jobs.."

and you are so eager to attack that you botched the hit.

[Francesca9]

11. Chavez is a hypocrite

Caracas has become the most violent and dangerous city on earth. Crime is out of control.

How about some sympathy for those in his own nation?

[pretzel4gore]

15. lies! lies..lies

not true! not frickin true (excuse me englishe)!
President Chavez is not a hypocrite- he's a hypopotomuss)

[EFerrari]

16. Where is the hypocrisy? The efforts to deal with crime

including reforming the police force have been ongoing. Not only doesn't he deny there is a problem, his government is actively working to deal with it.

How about getting your facts straight.

[Francesca9]

17. Drug gangs rule Caracas

This is a fact. It is the most violent city on earth.

It is a fact that reforms have been announced by politicians worried about elections but I have not seen any evidence that the people of Venezuela are any safer because of these press releases.

Perhaps you are correct, would you mind posting a link that supports your claim that these reforms amount to more than press releases?

[EFerrari]

18. Who else will issue press releases? The criminals?

I don't have time to do this at the moment but, I can tell you this. San Francisco was in a similar situation with a very high homicide rate AND a gang problem until not long ago. It took years to find the right solution. It wasn't until they changed the way homicides were investigated that the rates started going down, and our police force wasn't dealing the kind of corruption that Caracas is.

Here is one bit of information that is pertinent to police reform:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Commission_on_Police_Reform

[Judi Lynn]

25. A Mexican study ranked Colombian cities Medellin and Cali among the top ten most violent in the worl

A Mexican study ranked Colombian cities Medellin and Cali among the top ten most violent in the world, with Cali sixth and Medellin ninth.

According to reports by Caracol TV, Juarez City in Mexico came first for the second year in a row, with 2,568 deaths in the past year, which represents a murder rate of 191 per 100,000 inhabitants.

The most violent cities were ranked as followed: after Juarez city came San Pedro Sula in Honduras, with 119 deaths per 100,000 inhabitants last year, followed by San Salvador (El Salvador) with 95, Caracas (Venezuela) with 94, Guatemala (Guatemala) with 86, Cali with 73, Tegucigalpa (Honduras) with 69, New Orleans (U.S.) with 69, Medellin with 62 and Cape Town (South Africa) with 60.

“The people of Juarez and Mexico are caught in a daily fight between different drug cartels, and a government that has crossed its arms and given up,” said Jose Antonio Ortega, president of the Mexican Citizen Council for Public Safety and Criminal Justice. There was a 800% increase in deaths in the city between 2007 and 2009.

In Medellin, where violence exploded because of ongoing gang warfare, the murder rate went from 871 in 2008 to 1,431 in 2009, a 64% rise. Meanwhile in Cali the murder rate increased from 1,384 in 2008 to 1,615 in 2009, a 16% rise.

http://colombiareports.com/colombia-news/news/7626-study-places-medellin-and-cali-among-the-most-violent-cities-in-the-world.html

[pretzel4gore]

82. why are drugs illegal?

who gives mister pig the authority to outlaw medicines and tonics? that dinnae make sense (esp. if you're a rightwinger opposed to the government nanny state etc)...it's the profitability of drugs that drives the crime, not other way around! and mister pig KNEW IT when he began outlawing possession of drugs back in 'prohibition' era. the largest drug dealer on earth is mister pig (he moves narcotics around in transport trucks- i was security guard at generic drug maker 'apotec' and talked with some drivers) young guys kill each other for a fraction of what's in those fricking trucks!
and mister pig passes gas and giggles at us for letting him profit on BOTH ENDS of the drug laws! it's estimated some 500 thousand US citizens killed in drug violence since the 1920's...the pig rofl with pleasure at those stats!

[Pavulon]

19. In mexico city, colombia, or caracas I travel with KER policy and evac insurance

and insist on being met at the airport by an armed escort. I have no plans to end up like bettencourt.

Caracas is VERY dangerous once outside of the safe zone. So is DC, but not as bad.

[bvar22]

36. Caracas was dangerous BEFORE Chavez.

I know.
I was there.

[Judi Lynn]

38. Thank you for the perspective.The picture they try to paint is as if it only got rough recently! n/t

[Pavulon]

39. It has been bad forever according to the older reps,

and it is still bad now. I have been there too.

[SocialistJan]

52. Venezuela had 3.5 times less homicides before Chavez

1986-1999

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate_to_1999


2000-2009

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate


21,000 killed last year. 3,500 by the police.

[bherrera]

20. Chavez makes efforts to reduce crime for 11 years

But these efforts appear feeble, because crime has been increasing at a very high rate over this period when Chavez has been president of Venezuela. This is a sign the efforts are not effective. Maybe it is caused by excessive corruption and lack of intelligent people in the upper levels of government.

[SocialistJan]

53. 3.5 times more homicides since he was elected. 21,000 last year. 3,500 killed by the cops

[Judi Lynn]

54. Well, SocialistJan, he's one busy killer, isn't he? Why wasn't Bush blamed for our murder rate?

That point has been made elsewhere in this thread.

[SocialistJan]

58. Let's not corrupt the debate with wild allegations

Bush lied to invade a country and caused a hecatomb. He's a criminal to me. But that's not the point here. Not even the evolution of the US domestic homicide rate during his period (wasn't it stable?).

Many of us expected better from Chavez but we must admit that he has failed in addressing the social causes of violence in Venezuela.

[Judi Lynn]

63. By all means, god forbid we corrupt the debate. I trust the Venezuelan voters

to make the judgement on which President they feel will do the best job.

[SocialistJan]

66. It's simple facts.

[Judi Lynn]

67. You have evidence Hugo Chavez has failed to address the social causes of violence?

Would you like to post links to those facts?

What must the voters be thinking who have been electing the man, anyway? Are they simply stupid, lazy, dirty, ugly, dangerous poor people waiting for handsout, as the Venezuelan oligarchs claim, the "lumpen?"

Please do post any information you have on Hugo Chavez' grand masquerade as a respected (by the people who elect him) Venezuelan President. We need to know the truth behind the illusion.

[SocialistJan]

68. 3.5 times more homicides since he was elected. 21,000 last year. 3,500 killed by the cops

Links? I have the INE report in pdf, do you want it? How can I send it to you?

"3.5 times more homicides since he was elected. 21,000 last year. 3,500 killed by the cops". Simple facts.

[Judi Lynn]

71. Simple facts, or deceptive? Cuba has an extremely LOW crime rate.

Do the same people who drag around Venezuela's crime rate every election season claim socialism is also the reason for Cuba's LOW crime rate? Do they ever mention it?

We at D.U. who have been watching Latin American events and discussing them together for many years have watched all the same stories cycling endlessly. Dragging out the national crime rate is compulsory, apparently, for the right-wing private media in Venezuela every time. El Nacional recently blazed photos taken from the morgue in Caracas several years ago showing nude men, women, and one child all spread out in their natural glory up close and personal, attemting to add a little blast of horror to their violence by Hugo Chavez charges. That would NEVER have played here in the states, even with dirty, deceitful Fox News, you'd better damned believe it.

Evil socialist Chavez causes crimes in Venezuela, according to the Venezuelan idiot oligarchs. Right.
Yet evil socialialist Castro doesn't get credit for almost NO CRIME in Cuba. How does that work out?

Concerning a direct major cause of crime, poverty, this article was posted here by a DU'er, and there are many similar ones which can easily be located:

Poverty in Venezuela Decreased by 22.6% over Past Decade

August 8th 2009, by James Suggett - Venezuelanalysis.com

Mérida, August 7th 2009 (Venezuelanalysis.com) -- The president of Venezuela's National Statistics Institute (INE), Elias Eljuri, announced on Friday that poverty in Venezuela has been reduced by 22.6% since President Hugo Chavez took office.

"Poverty has been dropping in an important manner over the last ten years, from 49% in 1998 to 26.4% in 2009," said Eljuri, citing the INE's national survey of 40,000 homes.

The INE also released inflation statistics for the month of July, showing 2.1% inflation, slightly higher than the previous month. Accumulated inflation so far this year is 13.1%, significantly lower than the 17.3% accumulated inflation during the first seven months of 2008.

Inflation in the prices of food, transportation, and education were slightly higher than the monthly average in July, while the prices of housing, health care, and communications were slightly lower.

The unemployment rate in June was 7.8%, according to the INE's most recent report. This is slightly higher than the unemployment rate in June of last year, which was 7.6%. The unemployment rate in Venezuela when Chavez took office ten years ago was 15%.

Posted by DU'er Indiana Green
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x470030

[SocialistJan]

74. Simple facts. No one's linking socialism with criminality.

"Evil socialist Chavez causes crimes in Venezuela, according to the Venezuelan idiot oligarchs. Right.
Yet evil socialist Castro doesn't get credit for almost NO CRIME in Cuba. How does that work out?"

Castro does get credit for the low criminality in Cuba. If I returned your logic I would also ask you why, if I give credit to Castro for maintaining a very low level of criminality in Cuba, wouldn't I blame Chavez for the impressive crime explosion in Venezuela since he was elected?

No double standards, it works out.

[bherrera]

78. But the crime rate is indeed a serious problem in Venezuela

And it is worse every year. Which means the government's efforts in the last 10 years have failed. Or have been contrary to what should be done. I expect their justice system does not work, their jails are hell which create more criminals, they must have a lot of guns, and there is a large population of young males with no work. The typical recipe for a high crime country.

[sabrina 1]

89. If you are blaming Chavez for the high crime rate in

Venezuela, then you must blame Bush and Obama for the crime rate here. How is that corrupting the debate? Chavez has addressed many social problems in Venezuela. It will take decades to address all of them. Were all the anti-Chavez crowd screaming ten years ago when the poverty and illiteracy rate in Ven. was over 80%?

I have a feeling it didn't bother the anti-Chavez rightwingers whose faux outrage over every word Chavez says is so transparent. Sad to see people who are Democrats following their lead though, rather than urging THIS Government to stop funding Chavez enemies and to try to helpl, rather than obstruct his efforts.

[sabrina 1]

28. You mean like our president is a hypocrite because of the violent crime

in some of our cities, like eg, Chicago or DC not far from the WH? Since when is a president responsible for criminals? If that is the case, then all leaders of all countries are hypocrites because they couldn't stop crime!

Same old bought-and-paid-for propaganda from the West against a country that had the audacity to spend their own oil revenues on their own citizens and wouldn't just hand it over to Multi-National Corps.

Do you realize that you are repeating propaganda?

[Judi Lynn]

31. Very sharp point you've made. Superb. Thank you. n/t

[hack89]

84. Except our violent crime rates are falling

have been falling steadily for a decade, and now are at historic lows. Trust me, every president will take credit for such results.

If there was a massive increase in violent crime then it would be reasonable to ask what has changed.

[sabrina 1]

87. Really? Tell that to the people of Chicago, eg.

It is so bad in that city that they are considering calling in the National Guard. And it is not the only one.

Chicago Is in a State Of Emergency

Chicago is in a state of emergency. It has been reported that 113 people have been killed in Chicago this year. The same number of U.S. soldiers have been killed in Iraq and Afghanistan during the same time period.

The present structure is not adequate to secure the people. We are laying off teachers, closing schools, proposing shorter school days, reducing public transportation, laying off transit workers and raising the fare for public transportation and public parking. The basic issues in the zones of pain are not being addressed. Neighborhoods facing high crime and violence are also facing record home foreclosure rates and student loan defaults.

If talk about bringing in the National Guard illuminates the issue, then let the debate begin.

Obama's fault, definitely! :sarcasm:



Then there is the huge increase in White Collar crime, for which so far, few have been prosecuted. Instead this country rewards the corrupt Wall St. criminals who collapsed our economy.

So, who is responsible for the violent crime rates in some of our cities, like Chicago and DC and LA eg? And who is responsible for the exhonoration of the major criminals who collapsed the economy of this country?

If Chavez is responsible for crime in Venezuela, then Obama is responsible for 'doing nothing' about the murders in Chicago. Sorry, but you cannot have it both ways even though you are struggling hard to do so.

[hack89]

92. Murder rate down 11 percent in 2009

but even last year was lower than a decade ago.

As 2009 rolls to a close, there is encouraging news on the crime front – then number of homicides in Chicago has fallen 11 percent this year.

The city is far from setting any homicide records recently. The worst year for homicides in Chicago history was 1974, when there were 970 murders, followed by 1992, when there were 943.

A decade ago, the murder total was still far higher than today. There were 705 homicides in the city in 1999.

http://cbs2chicago.com/topstories/2009.homicide.rate.2.1396760.html

[Sixathome]

75. Get out of your jar

go beyond your learned fear of socialism
http://www.projectcensored.org/top-stories/articles/truth-emergency-inside-the-military-industrial-media-empire/
and another
http://www.projectcensored.org/top-stories/articles/the-hyperreality-of-a-failing-corporate-media-system/

Read ,this is what you asked for.
New Orleans, Philly, and LA come to mind for murder rates unreported
socialist nations fight for the life of all people and the US is constantly destabilizing the community
To assume that in their brief efforts all should be perfect would be dreaming
Americans, typically, are afraid to give up their worldly goods for the greater community - Venezuelans are Amazing

[Pavulon]

13. A spelling Nazi, nicht sehr gut

hit the google, you will find the story is well documented.

[Warren Stupidity]

30. no your mispelunks are fine

it was the rush to hit enter that amused me. The HATE just compels you.

[Pavulon]

41. Sorry to piss on che jesus the god, his loyal followers will be stirred

I am still waiting for him to LEAVE power. Dont hold your breath.

[Judi Lynn]

42. He'll be there until the Venezuelan people don't elect him again, or someone arranges his murder.

Any argument about electing him should be addressed to the Venezuelan population.

[Pavulon]

43. Like I said, when he leaves office he gains my respect. til then he is juicing in

his family and consolidating power. lots of these guys get elected for life. funny how that works.

[Warren Stupidity]

46. " lots of these guys get elected for life"

keep the lies coming. Chavez has not been 'elected for life'. He has suffered electoral defeats in the past, and elections in Venezuela are at least as honest as our own, which is indeed a fairly low bar, but your implied claim of fraud is bullshit.

[bvar22]

50. The elections in Venezuela are WAY more honest than ours.

The elections and balloting are open, transparent, and verifiable.
They are monitored by several International Agencies.

Unlike the USA.
Our elections are NOT transparent and verifiable.
Our votes are counted in secret by computers OWNED (now) by two major corporations using secret code.
No international agencies are allowed, and exit polls have been either outlawed or marginalized.

[Warren Stupidity]

69. I deliberately set the bar low.

I agree. We could use outside observers. Our elections are entirely dubious.

[Judi Lynn]

47. FDR served four terms, died in office while the U.S. had NO term limits. The Republicans changed it.

The realized it'd be a cold day in hell before right-wingers could ever nominate any elitist a-hole the vast majority would prefer election after election, so they moved as quick as the wind to make sure this could never happen again in our country.

From the beginning of the Republic until FDR died there were NO restrictions on Presidential terms, as the Founding Fathers didn't deem it democratic enough to make part of the constitution. Only the deviants rushed forward to change all that.

[pretzel4gore]

80. the saintly Che!

next to Gensec (General Secretary, CP USSR) Stalin, most heroic fighter for our revolution! (which, as you know, died with the end of USSR):(

[irislake]

21. The American MSM is so biased against Chavez

that it's difficult to know what's true. Hilary Clinton has her nerve calling a democratically elected leader a dictator. I bristle whenever she does it. And as far as murderous and criminal behaviour is concerned it would be difficult to compete with American leaders.

Was George Bush democratically elected? Did he approve torture, assassinations, and mass murder? Not hard to find proof of that. They are blatant about it. And Obama doesn't seem to be changing the direction of American foreign policy.

[bherrera]

22. it must be bad to see the FARC lose the war

When Mr Chavez allows the erection of statues of FARC leader in Venezuela's capital, one knows very well which side he supports in Colombia's conflict. This defeat of the FARC must be bothering the communists who rule Venezuela.

[EFerrari]

23. Actually, Chavez publicly told the FARC it was time to put down their weapons

so your comment makes no sense whatsoever.

[Judi Lynn]

26. Absolutely right. He's been making public statements to them about it. He's very clear.

No one who pays attention to the facts is in the dark about his position.

[sabrina 1]

29. Sad to see that the millions of dollars spent on propaganda against Venezuela

a huge oil-producing country (which I'm sure has nothing to do with anything when it comes to the U.S. :eyes:) works so well even on a democratic board like this. You need to do some research on your own and stop repeating this garbage unless you are prepared for another Iraq.

I am assuming you didn't support that war for oil and didn't believe all the lies that led up to it, but maybe I am wrong?

[Francesca9]

33. Oil was never an issue in Iraq or Venzuela

The US just buys oil, it doesn't matter who is selling it. There is always someone selling oil and who cares where it was purchased from?

The Iraq war shut down a lot of wells and drove the price up. This made a lot of people a lot of money.

Chavez HAS to sell the oil, his economy would collapse in a week otherwise. The farms no longer produce food, Venezuela cannot eat without oil. As long as he sells his oil to someone it doesn't matter who he sells to.

[bherrera]

45. Venezuela is not a huge oil producing country

I was curious about your statement. Venezuela is not huge, and it is not a very big producer of oil. If we look at the statistics, countries like USA, Canada and Mexico produce more oil than Venezuela.

I notice there is a common theme in the media by the people who support the Chavez regime. It is a mantra which repeats anything said about Venezuela which is not a glowing comment, is paid propaganda or the person who issues the comment must be stupid and ignorant. The truth is sometimes something else. Venezuela, for example suffers from a very serious crime wave. It is also known to have a poor economy with very high inflation. This is not propaganda, it is a fact. It is also a fact that Mr Chavez has been president for 11 years in Venezuela. Therefore the excuses that it is some other guy's fault is really not valid. The government in Venezuela is a marxist-type government which seems to have many guys who don't have common sense.

[Francesca9]

48. To understand Chavez you must first know Latin American history

Chavez considers himself Bolivar II. He has said this. In his view he should govern the territory that Bolivar did, and this include all of Columbia.

[Judi Lynn]

61. What proof do you have Chavez believes he should govern another country?

Please be good enough to post a link to credible sources.

[EFerrari]

62. LOL

[sabrina 1]

90. I know it's hard work to do a little research but

my advice is, if you don't want to put the effort in then refrain from posting your fantasies about Chavez because it doesn't make you look very good.

I know it's a waste of time asking, but could you post a link to a reliable source backing up that latest fantasy of yours?

[Warren Stupidity]

70. You have your facts wrong. Number 6 in the world.

By either estimated or proven reserves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_proven_oil_reserves

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_reserves

[bherrera]

77. Venezuela's Reserves means very litte

Reserves in the oil industry is a theoretical number. A country's position is measured by the production of the product. And in this area Venezuela is very feeble. They have these theoretical reserves, but they produce less oil now than they did in the past. This tells me either their figures are inflated, or they are unable to produce the oil. To say that Venezuela is a huge country is exageration. It is a country of the medium size, with a small economy, and it exports a product which is becoming obsolete.

[sabrina 1]

72. It is also a fact that since Chavez became president

the poverty level and the literacy level have dropped from the previous 80% levels by over 20%.

Sometimes facts are just facts. Venezuela does have huge oil reserves and ever since the government nationalized their oil, the Western Multi-national corps have been attempting to undermine the government. Anyone who believes the Iraq War was not about oil as far as this country is concerned, must not be aware of the history of these two countries, AND of the final 'deal' made by the current puppet government as far as Iraq's oil is concerned.

Any country that is not based on a capitalist system is simply not acceptable to this country. And any leader, such as Chavez, and now several other South American leaders, who is not simply a puppet of this country, will be targeted as Chavez has been.

I think you are very mis-informed about the history of this country and South America, a region of the world which is now finally getting out from under the decades of oppression and dictatorships supported fully by this country.

Chavez, eg, has paid off Venezuela's debt to the World Bank, not a good thing as far as the Western Mutli-nationals are concerned. They are independent now and it will take a long time to repair the damage caused in S.A. by the influence of the west.

As far as their economy, you have to be kidding. Our economy is what we ought to be worried about. Are you suggesting that the U.S. economy is so great that we can point fingers elsewhere, or that the economies of the entire world have collapsed as a result of the runaway Capitalism that has completely failed?

And why is the U.S. so interested in Venezuela? What business is it of ours what other countries do? Even if they do have resources we would like to control, the U.S. is going to have to get used to the fact that the days when they DID control these countries' government are ending.

[bvar22]

51. It is clear....

that you don't know the difference between Democratic Socialism and Communism.
Time for you to hit the books before you embarrass yourself even more.

VIVA Democracy!

[earcandle]

24. Thank you, Chavez for your humanity!

If only other leaders would get it that homicide and genocide suck.

Atlas Wept

Get Out

[Old Troop]

32. By the way, what ever happened to the war between Venezuela and Columbia?

[COLGATE4]

35. Any day now... just wait... any day now.........

[EFerrari]

60. Try to keep up. Chavez was invited to meet with Santos

to square things when Santos took office. So the war is off. DC and Bogota are pretending that the architect of the false positives program is as clean as a little lamb. Why let mass graves mess with this kind of friendship!

[COLGATE4]

34. Hugo's concern is duly noted.

[bvar22]

37. Amazing.

DUers cheering on Right Wing Oligarchs in Colombia....death squads & all.

VIVA Democracy!
I pray these reforms migrate to El Norte.

[hack89]

40. Cheering the death of a FARC leader is not the same

as supporting Colombia. He was a murdering thug and the world is a better place without him.

[EFerrari]

64. It's the New Normal. n/t

[SocialistJan]

55. No joy for death.

But what a torturer that Mono. Very famous.

[Judi Lynn]

56. What information do you have on Jojoy's torture of victims? Could you post a link for DU'ers?

It would be important for you to have some basis for your claim.

Was he as bad as the chain-saw massacre's of living people by the Colombian paramilitaries? Did he use machetes to cut them apart slowly as they begged for their lives, like the Colombian paramilitaries? Did he throw them into mass graves like the Colombian paramiltaries?

It would be good if you backed up your claim he is a torturer for those of us who haven't heard about it.

[Francesca9]

57. Wiki does not allege torture

Hard to have any sympathy though. Saying there were worse people is irrelevant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%ADctor_Julio_Su%C3%A1rez_Rojas

[Judi Lynn]

59. I'm still interested in hearing what the evidence is on the torture charge. Thanks. n/t

[gbscar]

85. I'm guessing you think the UN and Human Rights Watch don't know what the word "torture" means....

FARC-EP continued to commit grave breaches such as murders of protected persons, torture and hostage-taking, which affected many civilians, including women, returnees, boys and girls, and ethnic groups.

...

Several former FARC-EP child combatants described in detail to Human Rights Watch how guerrillas tortured captive paramilitaries by pushing needles under their nails, severing fingers and arms, and cutting their faces.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FARC

Torture in the FARC-EP

In the FARC-EP camps, children are sometimes made to watch the brutal torture of captured paramilitaries or suspected infiltrators, who may well be children themselves.

...

"In my first combat, they captured eighteen AUC members. They tortured and killed all of them. First they tied them up and took them back to the camp. And the company commander called all of us recent arrivals who were still in training over to see how they killed. All of us who didn't know yet how to kill or torture to obtain information. They cut off their fingers, first they removed their nails, their nose, and they cut off the ears. They cut open their stomachs and removed their intestines with a knife, while they were still alive, and afterwards they shot them. And we watched, and some of the kids left because they got sick and were vomiting. The commander said that it was easy, that one day we would have to do it. It was ugly, terrible. For a long time after I thought of death."

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2003/colombia0903/14.htm#_Toc57

Enumerating reported killings of children by the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia-People’s Army (FARC-EP), which has been fighting national governments for more than 45 years, Mr. Ban cites the case of a 14-year-old girl murdered in Antioquia department allegedly because of her association with a member of the national armed forces.

“The girl was brutally tortured, with one of her hands cut off and one of her eyes gouged out before she was killed,” he writes.

Children have also been killed for refusing to join the groups. “In January 2008, FARC-EP attempted to recruit two brothers, aged 13 and 15, in the department of Putumayo,” Mr. Ban notes. “Upon their refusal to join the group, the guerrillas killed one boy by dousing him with gasoline and shooting him. The second boy was recruited against his will.”

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=31982&Cr=children&Cr1=armed+conflict

Granted, that doesn't necessarily mean "Mono Jojoy" was the person doing the torturing himself, but he oversaw FARC's entire Eastern Bloc for almost two decades.

If Colombian officials who have served in their positions for far shorter amounts of time are responsible for the atrocities committed by their subordinates, then Mr. Suárez here isn't any less responsible for what his guerrilla troops have done.

[Judi Lynn]

91. Torture Widespread in Colombia, Rights Groups Say

Torture Widespread in Colombia, Rights Groups Say

GENEVA – The use of torture is generalized and systematic in Colombia, human rights activists from the Andean nation said here Wednesday.

Representatives of the Colombian Coalition Against Torture held a a press conference in Geneva to discuss the report the group is presenting this week before a U.N. rights panel here. “Torture continues to be generalized and systematic in Colombia. It is perpetrated by the Public Force, by the paramilitaries and by the guerrillas, but the party principally responsible for these acts is the state,” said Isabelle Heyer, a member of the Colombian Jurists Commission.

In its Alternative Report, the coalition cites 337 instances of torture in Colombia between July 2003 and June 2008, up from 187 during the previous five-year period. Half of the 2003-2008 cases can be blamed on security forces, while another 42 percent are attributable to the right-wing militias, Heyer said.

She said sexual violence against women and girls is one of the most pervasive modes of torture, calling it “an habitual, systematic and invisible practice, which enjoys impunity in the majority of cases and whose principal perpetrators are soldiers and police.”

Another member of the anti-torture coalition, Jahel Quiroga, said that in more than 40 years of internal conflict, “there has never been a period as traumatic as the one we’re living now, with the demobilization of the paramilitaries, responsible for thousands of murders that are remaining unpunished.” He was referring to Colombia’s Justice and Peace Law, under which most of the right-wing gunmen who took part in a peace process with the government have escaped any legal accountability for the atrocities carried out by the militias.

The militias, organized in the AUC federation, arose in the mid-1980s to protect landowners and businesses from Marxist rebels, but degenerated into a fractious coalition of death squads whose chiefs grew rich from drug trafficking, land grabs and extortion. Paramilitaries were responsible for at least three-quarters of the more than 27,000 forced disappearances in Colombia over the past two decades, a government prosecutor said last month, while a preliminary report compiled last summer blamed the AUC for 21,000 deaths since 1987.

“According to the government, 31,000 paramilitaries demobilized, but only those who had open court cases had to give statements. But 19,000 of them didn’t have open cases, so they have had total impunity,” Quiroga said Wednesday in Geneva. Of the remainder, he noted, only 600 have testified, and those men “have confessed to the worst crimes one could imagine.”

More:
http://laht.com/article.asp?CategoryId=12393&ArticleId=347195

~~~~~
Paramilitaries, Drug Trafficking
and U.S. Policy in Colombia
by Samia Montalvo
Dollars and Sense magazine, July / August 2000

At 32 years old, Carlos Castano leads Colombia's largest paramilitary force, the Autodefensas Unidas de Colombia (AUC), or United Self-Defense Forces of Colombia. The AUC has earned the nickname "The Head Cutters" because its victims are usually tortured, mutilated, and then decapitated. Waging a relentless war against Colombia's leftist guerrillas -the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC) and the National Liberation Army (ELN)-the paramilitaries both launch attacks on guerrilla-held territory and target those they suspect of being guerrilla "sympathizers" (including labor-union leaders, peasants, peace advocates, and human-rights workers).
According to the U.S. State Department, there were 399 massacres in 1999 (up from 239 in 1998), 80% of which were carried out by the paramilitaries. The Colombian Armed Forces, meanwhile, often turn a blind eye to atrocities committed by the paramilitaries-their allies in the counterinsurgency war.

More:
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/South_America/Paramilitaries_Colombia.html

~~~~~
I have so many more I want to add later. My time is short now, for the moment, as I have duties elsewhere, but I have enough for tons of pages, have already POSTED tons of articles on the subject here at D.U.

The paras (STILL ACTIVE, by the way, since the demobilization has always been completely fraudulent, of course) have been noted by ALL human rights groups as being responsible for "the lion's share" of ALL ATROTICITES in Colombia. Most of us are aware the paras also have worked side by side with the Colombian military as an adjunct, sometimes working together even with military officers in massacres, sometimes even eating with them in the same dining halls. Former paras, on video, have stated the Colombian military has given them their UNIFORMS, even, as they are identical, except for having no military markings on them.

I have material on paras slaughtering entire villages, on paras who have imprisoned villagers in small buildings, and brought out a few each day and used them to teach new paras how to take them apart while living, how to dispose of their bodies by cutting them open, stripping out their organs filling them with rocks so they sink when they throw them in the water. The neighbors of the tortured and murdered villagers are forced to witness this or hear them through the walls as they await their own torture, murders.

A testimony on one of these village massacres was given by a former para, I have his photo which I will be glad to post again, and it should be noted he himself was kidnapped and tortured and murdered after he testified, which his face seems to reveal he expected.

I have far, FAR more material which is simply available to anyone looking for it. They ALL come back to the fact the military and the para death squad monsters are, and will always be responsible for the VAST majority in this ancient battle of the oligarchs to control and beat down the massive poor population into total, terrorized, paralyzed submission. Everyone knows it who is honest enough to look for the truth.

A couple small easy examples isn't representative: it's only the first material which popped up when I looked.

I have already posted reams of information available to everyone who looks for more to learn in the internetS.

[gbscar]

93. Does that somehow make guerrilla atrocities any better or worth ignoring? Not at all.

You appear to believe that info dumping on paramilitary or state atrocities and military-paramilitary collaboration -none of which I've EVER denied here or anywhere else on the web over the years- makes up for staying extremely quiet about FARC abuses, including cases of TORTURE and more.

If the guerrillas aren't the biggest offenders for certain major categories of atrocities, does that mean you shouldn't criticize them when they're still guilty for a minority of those abuses or somehow forget about their larger share of responsibility for other types of violence?

No. I'd like to see you face people who have been hurt by FARC, who are not mustache-twirling "oligarchs" or oppressors, and tell them that their pain and their bloodshed doesn't matter because it's the "lesser" evil.

I'm sorry, but if that's what the implication of your argument looks like, I find it morally repugnant. There is an urgent need to condemn all atrocities from all parties.

I'd like to see you acknowledge that there is no such thing as a monopoly of barbarism here, but I realize it's a lost cause.

Painting this as a black and white battle between the rich and the poor does not justify the indifferent selectiveness of your portrayal. If anything, the fact that the victims of both sides are not always divided into such convenient categories shows the limitations of your presentation. FARC doesn't just oppress the oligarchs and the government doesn't just oppress the poor.

Nobody can possibly pretend to speak of "the truth" by refusing to acknowledge that the FARC has done a lot of harm to many Colombians, including impoverished people who have little or nothing left, in ways that are no less horrific.

There are more than enough pictures and descriptions of FARC atrocities in English or Spanish that would be no less numerous than everything else you've ever posted in this forum. That is, if you're sincerely against terror and suffering as as whole, caring about ALL of the victims of the conflict, not just those that seem convenient for your discourse.

[SocialistJan]

65. I was thinking more of the assassinations, the bombings, the eternal hostages in the jungle

But actually you're right, that's not exactly torture with an iron hook... or with chain-saws as the paracos.

[bherrera]

79. FARC torture incidents

From a US legal case:

On December 1, 1999, several FARC members showed up at Santamaria's farm looking for Santamaria.   Santamaria's groundskeeper and long-time family friend, Mario, was there alone with his son.   The men demanded to know Santamaria's whereabouts.   Mario resisted, and the men began torturing Mario.   When Mario continued to refuse to disclose Santamaria's location, the men shot Mario to death in the presence of his son.

http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-11th-circuit/1232500.html

Human Rights Organization

The FARC routinely kidnaps civilians for ransom, political gain, and for use as human shields. Hostages such as those released today are caged and held in animal-like captivity for years. Beyond systematic atrocities against civilians such as torture, assassination, and “disappearances,” the FARC uses children who are 14 years old and younger, as soldiers in their army and are known to test the loyalty of child soldiers by forcing them to torture or kill other children.

http://www.humanrightsfoundation.org/media/080702.html

Some other comments about your darling FARC at the UN website:

"The FARC and the National Liberation Army (Ejército de Liberación Nacional, ELN) continued to commit human rights abuses and serious and repeated violations of international humanitarian law, including the killing of civilians, the recruitment of children and hostage-taking.

Widespread use of anti-personnel mines by the FARC continued. In 2009, more than 111 civilians and members of the security forces were killed and 521 injured by landmines. The FARC launched indiscriminate attacks in which civilians were the main victims."

http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/country,,,ANNUALREPORT,COL,,4c03a83537,0.html

[sabrina 1]

94. You are clearly unaware, or just ignoring the Colombian

Government's 'appalling record of Human Rights Abuses' over the past 40 years. Why are you doing that? It is world-wide consensus that for journalists, civilians and anyone who dares to speak truthfully about the criminally oppressive Government of Colombia, that country is not a safe place.

There would be no 'Farc' if there was no horrendous torture, murder and corruption in the Colombian Government. And strangely, people like you focus on Venezuela which all studies show under Chavez, is a country where civilians and journalists are free and there are no mass graves or torture chambers to be found.

This 'Fair' article addresses the strange pre-occupation of the U.S. with Venezuela while it ignores the horrendous Human Rights record of Colombia and continues to support its corrupt, oppressive and cruel government.

Human Rights Coverage Serving Washington’s Needs

Colombia’s ‘appalling’ record . . .

Over the past 40 years, Colombia has been known for its rampant human rights violations, untouchable drug cartels, government-linked death squads and violent guerrilla groups. The principal specialist on Colombia for the nonprofit group Human Rights Watch (HRW), Maria McFarland Sanchez-Moreno, told Congress (4/23/07), “Colombia presents the worst human rights and humanitarian crisis in the Western Hemisphere.” She also noted that government-linked paramilitary groups are largely responsible for Colombia’s grim status.

Though Colombia is not the chaotic state it was in the late 1980s and early ‘90s, and violence and repression have not been uniform, HRW’s Americas director José Miguel Vivanco has called Colombia’s current human rights situation “appalling” (Human Rights Watch, 1/22/08).

Killings of civilians by uniformed Colombian military and police totaled 329 in 2007 (Los Angeles Times, 8/21/08), and the country’s unfolding “para-political” scandals have revealed “links between rightist death squads and dozens of officials loyal to President Álvaro Uribe” (Boston Globe, 12/14/06). Everyone from senators to cabinet members to judges have been implicated—even Colombia’s top general, Mario Montoya, whom the Washington Post (9/17/08) described as “a trusted caretaker of the sizable aid package Washington provides Colombia’s army.”

A 2005 report by the Colombian Commission of Jurists (6/21/05) estimated paramilitaries have killed at least 13,000 people since 1996 alone.

The country is, in Sánchez-Moreno’s words (4/23/07), “the murder capital of the world for trade unionists”; estimates of the number of unionists killed in the last two decades range from 2,700 (Human Rights Watch, 11/20/08) to 4,000 (AFL-CIO Solidarity Center, 6/06; U.S. State Department, cited in Miami Herald, 4/16/07).

Yet, here you are attempting to excuse this Government and its history of brutality against its own people. And to its shame, the U.S. Government chooses to support this brutal government while attacking its oil-rich neighbor, Venezuela with constant negative propaganda.

Fortunately, the world has become better informed and does not accept at face value anything that emanates from U.S. controlled media anymore.

But again, to see this defense of such a brutal government while attacking the far more democratic Venezuela here, on DU, makes me wonder what has happened to the 'left' in this country over the past five or six years. Because eight or so years ago, no democratic board would have been exposed to this kind of defense of Colombia, or to the spread of the propaganda against Venezuela.

[gbscar]

95. Brutality is brutality, whether it comes from the Colombian government, the FARC/ELN guerrillas...

...drug cartels, common criminals or other factions both private and public, local and national involved in the conflict.

Colombia isn't even a truly safe place for people who support the central government or are indifferent to it.

You can die at the hands of an armed thief in the middle of the street and your case will likely fall into impunity just the same as that of an unionist. You can vote for Uribe or Santos and yet end up angering a corrupt senator who sends death threats to you by phone. You can sympathize with FARC's struggle and yet end up being kidnapped all the same. You might be the friend of a Colombian general and yet end up being killed by drug violence in Medellín. These are some out of millions of possible scenarios that happen in Colombia every single day, that aren't reduced to unilateral oppression coming from the government.

There are more than just two sides in today's Colombian tragedy. In addition, it's not like FARC respects freedom of expression since they've also threatened and killed journalists as well as human rights workers or indigenous activists who have criticized or otherwise opposed them. There is plenty of documentation for this in HRW, AI and UN reports, among others, throughout the years.

If you're going to refer to such reports, you might as well read what they say about FARC and ELN. It's not pretty.

You might argue that there are more abuses coming from the other direction, but that is no moral justification.

Neither does the fact that someone "shot first" make any difference more than 50 years later, when a true cycle of violence has been established as all sides keep murdering and terrorizing the population. Pretending that giving FARC a pass is going to help anyone makes absolutely no sense. More attention to detail, instead of less, cannot be a bad thing.

I wouldn't think that is so hard to understand. Nobody has a clean human rights record in this hellish war. Nobody's pain is inferior.

That the mainstream media tends to focus on FARC's atrocities does not justify ignoring them here.

[sabrina 1]

96. People with an agenda, such as the U.S. mainstream media

are not worth paying attention to. I am well aware that once a country begins to treat its citizens worse than they would treat enemies, a cycle of violence begins and continues often for generations. How do citizens deal with corrupt and brutal governments? Here in the U.S. we had a Revolution. It was pretty violent on all sides by the time it ended. We have decided our version of Farc are heroes. Same thing happens every time a government turns on its own people. If the revolutionaries win, they become legitimate.

But in the end more responsibility lies with those who betrayed their citizens. And they certainly should have expected resistance, violent resistance, since just asking them politely to stop disappearing and torturing civilians rarely works. Do these governments really think they can initiate this kind of violence without consequences?

And why does the U.S. always seem to be on the side of these brutal rulers, in S.A. in the M.E. and elsewhere?

The way I see it, if you want to embark on a career of brutality against your own citizens, then don't whine when they fight back. As you can see, such whiners, like Uribe et al, don't get much sympathy regardless of how people feel about the actions of those who choose similar methods to fight back.