(Chancellor Angela) Merkel demands Muslims conform to German values

[Turborama]

Source: DPA (German Press Agency)

Berlin - German Chancellor Angela Merkel demanded Monday that Muslims living in Germany conform to "fundamental German values," saying there was no leeway on the issue.

She spoke a day after Germany's largely ceremonial president, Christian Wulff, had reached out to Muslims in a speech marking 20 years of reunification, assuring them they belonged.

Wulff's remarks were welcomed by one of the country's main Islamic groups, the Central Council of Muslims.

The Christian Democrat chancellor, in remarks promoting a fiercely conservative book by one of her supporters, said Muslims in Germany must orient themselves without reservation to Germany's fundamental values and constitution. "There is no leeway on this," she said, adding that Germans' perceptions of Islam were dominated by Sharia (Islamic law), the lack of equality between men and women and honour killings.

Read more: http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/europe/news/article_1588860.php/Merkel-demands-Muslims-conform-to-German-values

---

Oh dear, that kind of ruins everything http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4563224">President Wulff said yesterday.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Codeine]

2. Breaking News: Muslims Invade Poland, Eye Soviet Union.

:rofl:

[joeybee12]

3. +1 Woo-hoo!

Call for unification with the Sudentanland.

[Blue_Tires]

44. Muslims start building kickass sports cars and have a tactically strong soccer team

[nyy1998]

51. Muslims sack Paris....again....

[earthside]

4. In America Muslims should conform to American values.

Muslims in the United States ... and atheists and Buddhists and Jews and Christians and Daoists and Scientologists and whatever ... should recognize and accept that this country is against any kind of theocracy.

Separation of church and state being the fundamental 'American' value I am talking about.

And the values and principles articulated in the Bill of Rights and the Declaration of Independence.

[aquart]

6. Not to mention the rights of women.

And laws against bigamy and polygamy.

[Glorfindel]

9. If only Thomas Jefferson hadn't included "nature's god" in the DOI...

personally, I think he was referring to Gitchee-Manitou, but others have different opinions.

[Deep13]

20. He was pretty non-specific.

My recollection (and I haven't looked in a while) is he refered to a generic "God" once and an undefined "Creator" once. He never refered to Jesus Christ or Christianity which was the custom of the time.

[No Elephants]

85. The DOI is not the law of the land. He and Madison did not include any mention of the super-

natural in the Constitution of the United States, except for the freedom of religion AND establishment clauses of the First Amendment and a ban against any religious test for the Presidency (which, unfortunately, Constitutional professor Obama never mentions when anyone asks him about his religion). (Some people argue that giving the date as anno Domini is a reference to religion, but those people are simply unaware of the history of dating in the Western world.)

The purpose of the DOI was to justify to colonists of what is now the U.S.A. and {mostly} to the world the then unheard of step of a colony declaring itself independent from its colonizer--which must have been a very touchy subject for other colonizers of the "New World," like Spain and France. People need only to read the entire document (and not only the preamble and a maybe another paragraph or two). Legally, the DOI became a dead letter, albeit an inspiring one, after it was read publicly on July 4, 1776.

Anyway. DOI is not, and never was intended to be, the law of the land. The Articles of Confederation (version 1, then version 2) were the law of land, later replaced by the Constitution of the United States. The COTUS was modeled greatly on the Constitution of Virginia, also penned (quilled) by Jefferson. The COV was clearer on separation of religion and government and closer to thew wall of separation Jefferson described in his 1802 letter to Danbury Baptists. http://www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/9806/danpre.html See also http://candst.tripod.com/tnppage/baptist.htm (letter from Baptists to Jefferson) and http://www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/9806/danbury.html (FBI restoration of words Jefferson had crossed out of his letter-assuming we believe FBI).

[GodlessBiker]

10. They should conform to American law. Conformity to American values is not an American value.

[Deep13]

24. Well, we don't all have the same values.

Nevertheless, if we stick with democracy, rule of law, openess, acceptance of diversity, free expression, promotion of eductation and inquiry, then we should do all right.

[ieoeja]

30. Did you just call conservatives "un-American"?

Democracy - "but we're not a democracy, we're a republic"

Rule of Law - "if you have nothing to hide..."

Openess - "they can't protect us if ..."

Acceptance of Diversity - where to begin?

Free Expression - "that is exactly what we are doing when we shut down townhall forums"

Promotion of Education ... - "you know, there is such a thing as too much education"

... and Inquiry - "all you need to know are the three R's and the bible"

[Deep13]

31. I didn't, but they are.

In fact, they're not even very conservative. They are radical reactionaries that want to return to feudalism.

[Deep13]

19. Agreed.

Followers of specific religions have to accept that not everyone agrees with them and that embracing one religion or no religion is necessarily a rejection of all the others. Likewise, a believer has no right to insist on respect for his or her views from those who do not agree. If a religious person can accept that limitation, then I welcome that person as a neighbor. If that person insists on imposing his views on everyone else and insists we live by his religious values, then--and I really don't know how else to put this--he is my enemy and a traitor to the Revolution. That person would be better off in Saudi Arabia or El Salvador or Uganda or some other place where the priests are in charge.

Either we embrace modernity, Enlightenment values, free expression and inquiry or we do not. Part of that is acceptance of religious minorities. We cannot be both Progressive and accepting of medievalism.

[smirkymonkey]

27. +1000

[nyy1998]

52. As a Hindu, I agree.

I don't force my religion on others(I'll educate them about it when ppl have questions about it, but nothing more then that), and I do get a little ticked off(not throw the kitchen sink angry, but not happy nonetheless) when other people try to convert me.

[Deep13]

54. I know what you mean.

Person at the door: "I would like to tell you about Jesus Christ."

Me: "I didn't ask."

[woo me with science]

67. +1000 Excellent post. nt

[ChangoLoa]

96. The "priests" are not "in charge" in El Salvador, Uganda

Funny how you denounce bigotry...

[Deep13]

103. Of course I denounce bigotry. Don't you?

Here's Uganda's proposed kill-the-gays law.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KVb8PaH3f0

Here's El Salvador's law prohibiting all abortions even those necessary to save the mother.

http://womenshealthnews.blogspot.com/2006/04/women-of-el-salvador.html


Funny how bigotry against women and gays is justified when it is done for religious reasons. I agree with the liberal point of view on most things, but its moral relativism makes me sick.

[ChangoLoa]

119. It's not about moral relativism but discrimination

It's about pointing out one single group of people. Merkel didn't say "we, the people living in Germany, have to conform to our institutional values", she sent a signal specifically to muslims, saying "you, muslims living in Germany, are subject to a certain doubt from the rest of our national community, so you have to make an effort".


"adding that Germans' perceptions of Islam were dominated by Sharia (Islamic law), the lack of equality between men and women and honour killings."

[closeupready]

46. Has nothing to do with the topic here. Are you trying to hijack the thread?

??

[bherrera]

47. If separation of church and state are American values

Why is it impossible for an atheist to become president in the USA?

[Deep13]

75. Because that the separation is not perfect.

The inability of an open atheist and probably of a Muslim, Hindu or really anything except a Christian or a Jew to become president is a failure of secularism in this society. As long as ones religion is not the basis of his or her public policies, it really should not matter. I think we have come a long way since the days of burning heretics, but we still have a long way to go.

[divineorder]

76. I think it's just cultural ignorance and prejudice

Al Smith lost in 1928 because of prejudice against Catholics. In 1960 JFK won despite his being Catholic. In 2008 Joe Biden ran as VP and nobody even blinked about the fact that he was Catholic, and if god forbid, he became President, nobody would be alarmed. What happened in the interim was generational. People began to be familiar with Catholics and realized that there was nothing to fear. The same thing will happen with non-Christian religions and atheism after awhile. People will become accustomed to openness here too, as generations live openly as such.

Also many of the non-Christian religions also happened to religions of mostly immigrants. As they gain native converts and intermarry with other groups, they become more accepted by other groups to the point that voting for such a person becomes less scary. Along they way, groups get larger, more educated, more a part of the establishment so to speak.

[Deep13]

77. I find JFK to be an interesting example.

In 1960 he went on record to assure the country that he would always be an American first and that his religion would have no bearing on his presidency. In 2004, John Kerry responded to criticism from Catholic bishops who threatened to excommunicate him with assurances of respect to their views even though he disagreed when it came to public policy. To put it another way, JFK was criticized for being too Catholic while Kerry was criticized for being not Catholic enough.

I think whether or not there is anything to fear from a Catholic, Evangelical, Muslim etc. office holder depends on the individual and whether he or she respects the seperation of religion and state. It also depends on what the supporters of that office holder expect from him or her in that regard. I would have no worries about Joe Biden assuming the presidency because he is a pretty liberal guy who knows the difference between public policy and theology. His supporters assume that about him. Christine O'Donnell on the other hand is running on a fundamentalist Catholic platform and if elected will be expected to promote Christian prejudices in public policy. If a Muslim candidate was a Muslim the way Biden and JFK were Catholics, it would not bother me at all. If, OTOH, he or she were a Muslim the way O'Donnell is a Catholic, I would do what I reasonably could to try to keep that person out of office.

[No Elephants]

87. Also neo theos of all Christian sects, even some Jews and Muslims, allied against secularism.

They figure it's better to have non-denominational prayers to God in schools than no prayer in school at all, 'tho the unity with Muslims was stronger pre-911.

[No Elephants]

86. Because some Americans hate American values, which the COTUS embodies. Pls. see Reply 85.

[sabrina 1]

84. I am more worried about Christians in the U.S. understanding

that this is not a theocracy than any of the other groups you listed right now. Seems like we ARE a theocracy sometimes.

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BeyondGeography]

7. Oh, look, a gratutious hatefest on Germany and all things German

Yahoos.

[ThomasQED]

15. +1

Suggesting that the values of a crazed leader from over 60 years ago are the same ones the German people hold today is very offensive.

Not to mention the irony of these comments in response to an article about the current group of people who are being vilified for the values of only some among them.

[BeyondGeography]

22. Thank you...On balance, we have no finer friends in the world today than the German people

And the relationship is founded on the best of what our country has given the world.

Thankfully, this site is usually more sophisticated than what we see above.

[msanthrope]

66. Have you noted the irony of a 'Christian Democrat' female leader bitching about Sharia?

No?

Just thought I'd mention the values of a current-day German leader....

[ThomasQED]

68. There's really no comparison between the two.

I hope Ms. Merkel will clarify what values she is speaking of.

[msanthrope]

70. Right. Because as an atheist, I'm expected to differentiate between

the 'good' misogynist pedophile-enablers, and the 'bad' ones.

Really. Watching the internecine finger-pointing of the Abrahamic mythologies is amusing.

[ThomasQED]

71. I'm not a religious person either

But the article does not make clear what values she was referring to. Hopefully she meant freedom of AND FROM religion rule by German law, freedom of speech, etc.

In other words, they don't want anyone killed for drawing a cartoon or writing a book or committing adultery.

The words in the article are "fundamental German values", not "fundamental Christian values".

[fascisthunter]

106. Ummm... yes there IS! It's called intolerance

and unfortunately we see plenty of it here coming from christian fundies, and she is one as well. Intolerance of different cultures and religions is very common, especially in fundi environments.

[No Elephants]

102. Yep. Noted the irony of your use of "bitching," too.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

33. its pointing out that statements like these are generally very self congratulatory

and ignores the reality of a countries history. to pretend that violence is an islamic problem and that all western countries are not engaged in it, is a lie. reinterpreting germany's history as though it has always been a perfect nation is a lie.

[BeyondGeography]

57. Here's another part of that history you pretend to know

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZ9lhoo8fZo

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._9_(Beethoven)

If Europe can begin to make peace with the German past, maybe you can find it in yourself to as well. Also, try to lose that "perfection" strawman while you're at it.

[No Elephants]

Self delete. Dupe.

.

[No Elephants]

88. Yup. And same can be said of any nation. We are not very far removed from savagery.

Evolution still has a way to go. too bad it may never make it all the way, what with global warming, pollution and over-population, etc.

[merqz]

58. Oh please spare me

If Obama had said in a public speech that Muslims needed to conform witH American values, and such a response ensued, would it be a hatefest on america?

[BeyondGeography]

60. If said people saw nothing more to "American values" than slavery and genocide, yes

What would you call it?

[merqz]

62. Among other things

WWII is a heck of a lot more recent in Germany than slavery is in the US. But I agree that Nazism is not a German value.
If those posts were the ones you were referring to, that wasn't what I was referring to, so I stand corrected on your intent

[independent_voter]

8. On public TV, I saw a gay man (American ex-pat) in Holland talking about muslim immigration

He had moved to holland in the 80s to escape what he felt was the growing christian right in the USA, and was attracted to the welcoming multicultural culture of Holland

But now he fears that muslims are coming in in large numbers, could impose sharia law, which is very anti gay

he was beginning to question multiculturalism, because in being welcoming to everyone, he was letting in people who were not returning the tollerance to him that he had extended to them

[Turborama]

12. "he was letting in people"?

How did he do that?

Was he in charge of a lock on one of the canals at the border?

[independent_voter]

14. as a dutch citizen supporting the policy, yes nt

[Turborama]

16. So, he gave up his American citizenship?

By the way, it's not the citizens who are "letting people in", it's the consulates who work for the government.

[independent_voter]

18. what difference does it make?

you're missing my point - whether he was letting them in or not my point

the point is that he had voted with his feet in support of such a policy and philosophy - in the beginning, he couldnt see how anything could possibly be wrong with it (and he views that when he moved there, he was not in comflict with holland values)

[Turborama]

23. See post #21.

You're talking about a made up fear based on anti Muslim propaganda.

[independent_voter]

28. I tend to agree that islamophobia is trumped up

and the phobia itself is used to mamipulate the USA into military misadventures that benefit people other than the average US citizen

but that doesnt make that guy's concerns any less true

[Turborama]

29. Yes it does prove his concerns aren't true.

Have you read post #21 yet? If not, I could copy and paste it into this subthread for your convenience...

[independent_voter]

32. i read it and was responding to it

and havent changed my mind about my response

i dont think you're going to chane you opinion either

i think we're done here

[Turborama]

34. If you want to believe in someone else's naive fear that's based on a fallacy, that's up to you

I'm going to repeat it anyway... There is no evidence to suggest that there are "large numbers" of Muslims flooding into any country in Europe with the intention of turning the country they move to into an Islamic state. None. Whatsoever.

[No Elephants]

91. I don't know that all Muslims have given up on a Muslim world, any more than all

Christians have given up on a Christian world. So, maybe we're talking methodology more than desire.

As far as an individual's reasons for moving to a specific nation, those are probably complex and widely varying, but also besides the point.

If very religous Muslims were to become a majority in the U.S.--enough to amend the Constitution and/or control--I cannot say for certain they would not seek to make sharia law the law of the land, as they did in formerly secular Iraq, and I don't think you can say that for certainm either. Ditto very neo theo Christians and a "Christian nation." How or why a group gets to be a majority in a nation is irrelevant. And, in both cases, we do have evidence.

I am not supporting an anti Muslim bias (or an anti-Christian bias). I am just disagreeing with your statement, as you framed it.

[appal_jack]

41. Name one majority-Muslim nation with religious freedom

It's not bigotry to support separation of Church and State. That is a core American value, and I'm proud to support it.

-app

[Turborama]

42. That's not what we're discussing

Name me one country in Europe which "large numbers" of Muslims are flooding into with the intention of turning it into an Islamic state.

And by the way, I support separation of church and state too. As do the majority of Muslims where I live.

[appal_jack]

55. au contraire

The OP does not mention any 'flood' of Muslims entering any country, European or otherwise. That's your word, not mine, nor the OP's.

The OP DOES note that a Chancellor of a Western Democracy has asked Muslim people to comport themselves with the same tolerance and openness to diversity that immigrants & Muslims have every right to expect themselves. In my mind, this is a reasonable request; if any significant minority fails to embrace tolerance and diversity (whether American Tea-Baggers or Sharia-touting Islamic fundamentalists), then the western democratic ship of state is in dangerous straits.

AND (on-edit) Turkey has slipped from a relatively enlightened democratic state toward more of a theocracy as of late. Do you have any links to show that a plurality of Muslims in that country are fighting for better separation of Church and State?

-app

[mainer]

74. Isn't separation of church and state in the Turkish constitution?

And the military is trying to uphold it? The election of a more conservative leadership may, in fact, have been a reaction to western involvement in Afghanistan and Iraq.

[Turborama]

82. The OP (and this subthread) wasn't discussing Muslim countries. We were talking about something else

That was my point.

[No Elephants]

95. The OP is reflecting Merkel's concerns, right or wrong, about loss or supplanting of certain values

as Muslims become more numerous in a nation, so looking to what happens when Muslims are a majority in a nation is relevant.

[No Elephants]

93. Is where you live reflective of Muslim nations on the whole?

[ChangoLoa]

97. +1000

Why are these threads constantly diverted?!

[provis99]

69. Syria. Lebanon. Egypt. Turkey. there's four.

[mainer]

73. Hindus, Christians, and atheists get along in Malaysia

When I was visiting there, they seemed to all manage to live together without too much strife. And in their Chinatown (mostly secular) areas, I saw lots of women walking around in shorts, no problem.

[No Elephants]

98. Does Maylaysia reflect Muslim nations as a whole? And, can a tourist really tell?

Even in a supposedly secular nation like Iraq under Saddam (now under Sharia law, thanks to Dummya, Christian services were so far underground that some were still being said in Aramaic. Would a tourist have known that?

[mainer]

108. Malaysia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Malaysia

"Malaysia is a multiconfessional society, with slightly more than half of its people being Muslims. The internal conflicts the nation has faced have generally been precipitated by ethnicity rather than religion. The country is officially a Muslim state, and the Government actively promotes the spread of Islam in the country and its friendship with other Muslim countries. Nevertheless, other religions are tolerated and the individual's right to the freedom of worship is listed in the country's constitution. The government also gives grants to religious bodies of other religions for building projects and other programs."

[Turborama]

81. Indonesia, the world's most populous Muslim-majority nation, is another

I've temporarily added more details to my signature line to stop having to repeatedly post the map and to help clear away any misconceptions.

[No Elephants]

94. Lebanon is an exception for historical reasons. If you think Egypt and Syria are secular, you are

mistaken--and they become less so as time passes.

[No Elephants]

90. If citizens get a choice of Party, they're relatively lucky. Even if their party gets

control of the country, an individual citizen's view on specific issues is almost irrelevant. For only 1 of thousands of examples, 70% of Americans (not 70% of Dems) wanted a public option. Saying that the minority of ordinary citizens who did not want it kept it out of the bill is fanciful.

[LanternWaste]

38. What is the precise and relevant information

"could impose sharia law..."
What is the precise and relevant information he bases this position on?

"...not returning the tollerance (sic) to him that he had extended to them."
As a whole, or merely a handful of individuals he's run across?

[independent_voter]

72. I'm just quoting what he said, I didnt interview him personally

maybe he was just responding to Bill Moyer's Public Television radical right wing agenda

I believe that was who was interviewing him

[No Elephants]

89. Values are not always easy--or well-articulated. When we say "tolerance,'

does that mean we must allow and embrace intolerance? However, target the intolerant behavior, not a group. People are individuals. Not every Muslim believes in stoning homosexuals, any more than every Christian or Orthodox Jewish parent shuns, or sits shiva for, his or her gay offspring.

[Divine Discontent]

11. she's right! I read hear TIME after TIME about people yelling about gov't officials needing to be

told, 'don't shove your Christian values, or what you THINK those values are, on the country'. This is in the same mindset. Whereas it's funny to say, "German values" and wish to retort, "what decade, primarily are you suggesting?", the fact is - any type of religious takeover of a country is dangerous - because people who claim to follow the faith put their own take on what the holy texts say. I love Christ, and try to follow His call to love all, regardless of our differences or our flaws, but by no means should Christian leaders who are in power push their beliefs BASED on what they perceive as the definition of holy text. Everyone is equal in society, regardless what others try to force. The post before mine is a good example of the fear that comes from extremists moving into an area.

[Turborama]

21. The poster you are referring to is talking nonsense

"muslims are coming in in large numbers, could impose sharia law,"

The key words here are "COULD" and "IMPOSE".

There is no evidence to suggest that there are "large numbers" of Muslims flooding into any country in Europe with the intention of turning the country they move to into an Islamic state. None. Whatsoever.

It's a case of Islamaphobia based on anti-Muslim propaganda (a faux fear, if you will) that's been hyped up and created by the media.

[Divine Discontent]

36. I read international news every week, and there is much more murder & violence than I care to

remember that comes from many who live by those specific beliefs of law. I am glad I am in America...

[Turborama]

37. I live in the largest Muslim country & hear about all the murder & violence that goes on in America

and Europe.

I've also lived in America and Europe and saw it on the local news there every day, too.

I'm glad I've moved to a country where ownership of guns is heavily restricted.

I think the TV news selection we get here is probably amongst the widest that's on offer in the world.

● Al Jazeera English
● BBC World News
● CNN International
● Euro News
● Fox News
● Sky News
● Channel News Asia
● Bloomberg
● CNBC
● DW-TV Asia
● Russia Today
● TV 5 Monde Asia



ETA I also read international newspapers online everyday.

[merqz]

59. Very little murder, violence and crime occurs in Saudi Arabia

but I hope we don't adopt their solution to crime.

[Turborama]

83. Nobody in DU is suggesting Saudi Arabian laws are introduced in America

Your strawman argument is a failure of epic proportions.

[ChangoLoa]

99. It's an analytical scam

Muslims were attracted to Europe by European governments when they needed workers. The big wave of immigration took place during the 70's. Nowadays, the highest proportion of muslims can be found in France where they are around 10% of the population.

[Deep13]

13. W.W. II is over, so remarks about past German aggression are not well taken.

Characterizing modern Germans as Nazis is no better than characterizing most Muslims as terrorists. Germany today is a free society with a free press (more so than ours), free expression and religion and relative equality between sexes. IF her point is that those coming to Germany from more oppressive cultures need to respect the secularism and openess of their new country, then she's right. I don't think I would use the expression "traditional" German values since two of those values are antisemitism and authoritarianism.

[closeupready]

17. Germany does not have a more free press than the US has.

n/t

[Deep13]

25. Our press is largely owned by a few corporations...

...and the Murdock empire. Maybe I'm mistaken, but I was under the impression that was not the case in Germany.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

35. pretending that WWII was not a part of german history/psychology is a lie

no one is calling all germans nazis, but when statements such as these are made, it reinforces how easily the west forgets their own past and violence

[AngryAmish]

39. Don't mention the war!

[Deep13]

53. I did not say it was not part of its history.

I said it's not part of its present. With the exception of some extremist elements, that is true. The W.W.II generation is nearly all gone and the W.W.I generation is entirely gone. The people living in Germany today have not committed any atrocities and they are not guilty of the crimes of their ancestors. Unlike Japan or Austria, Germany had a cultural reckoning with its past after the war and is a different nation now, one that opens its doors to asylum-seekers. No one is forgetting the Nazis and I specifically mentioned two "traditional German values" that allowed the Nazis to come into being. So I don't know what you think I'm forgetting.

"The West" is a pretty nebulous term. In the modern sense, it has only included Germany since 1945 and then only the American, British and French sectors until 1990. Before that it was central Europe and allied with the Hapsburg states against France and had been since the 11th century. If you are referring to the violence of colonialism, Germany's was pretty limited compared to France and Britain. As Rowen Atkins noted in The Black Adder episode set in WWI, the UK controlled 1/5 of the dry land while Germany had "a sausage factory in Tunis."

Anyway, even if this generation is somehow tainted by historic violence, that does not make Merkle's remark (if I read her right) any less valid. When one says, "You're just as bad," that person is admitting he is bad. Your observation seems to preclude the possibility of a people learning from its past. This is something Germany has largely done. Would Merkle have been better off saying, "We used to be Nazis, but...." and then made her comments? How does that change anything? To give a different example, Jefferson's hypocrisy on the slavery issue did not make him wrong when he wrote "all men are created equal" and endowed with rights. (Most of us effectively read that today as "all persons.")

You know I personally like, respect and greatly admire you. I am just having a hard time seeing where you are coming from on this. I agree we should not oppress, harass or discriminate against Muslims or any other religious group. Likewise, I would not discriminate against someone for being a Catholic, but that does not mean I have to respect the idea that the communion wafer is physically the body of Jesus or ignore the cannibalistic implications of that doctrine. I certainly have no respect for Catholicism's misogyny or its oppression of heretics, Jews and homosexuals. Likewise, I have no respect for those same characteristics in Islam. This is not a suggestion that German or Anglo culture is beyond criticism. They most certainly are not. But sometimes it takes an outsider to point out what ought to be obvious, but often is not to those within a specific culture.

Anyway, I would be very sad if this scholarly disagreement prevented us from continuing to be friends. As I said, I hold you in high esteem. For my own part, I will always be your friend.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

56. lol. this would be a strange reason not to be your friend

i dont actually time to respond to why i disagree with you (writing a paper) but will soon

[Deep13]

78. I know you're busy.

Sorry if I overreacted, but I know you feel very strongly about this. :hi:

[harun]

26. I was reading The Portable Karl Marx a while back and....

he sent a letter to Engels about how the Christians in Germany were preparing their "Christian" state and how this would probably push Jews to do the same.

My suggestion to Merkel is to keep a strict separation of church and state. Didn't turn out to well for any of the parties involved the first time they tried this.

Also the press should press her on what she means by "German values"? She can't answer because it is just code for "don't be a believing Muslim, just wear the name tag".

[Yo_Mama]

40. I disagree

Oh dear, that kind of ruins everything President Wulff said yesterday.

Merkel said that Germany has freedom of religion and that Islam was welcome also. But she added that it must be a type of Islam that does not insist on certain aspects of Sharia law.

Nobody - not a Christian, not a Wiccan nor a Jew - has the right in the West to make up their own laws. They have had honor killings in Germany. Certain schools of Islam in Germany are also very mainstream and multi-cultural. Her remarks are really just common sense.

Life in any state would be a hell if representatives of any religion could just make up their own set of laws. That never has been the case in the US and it never can be the case in any nation. To do so just sets up a competition between various religions until the law of one wins out. The alternative is the rule of the country's own laws.

Shariah Islam never made the jump that the western world did. For the most part, we allow believers of different religions to follow their own paths. Their freedom to do so stops at committing actual crimes. So, for example, the Church of Sacramental Burning of Obnoxiously Ugly Buildings is destined to end with its followers in jail - if they are sincere.

That is the distinction Merkel is making, and it is an essential distinction.

In any case, both Wulff and Merkel are really rebutting Sarrazin's recent book, which claims basically that Muslims cannot be German citizens.

[Turborama]

45. Do you know the name of her political party?

Christian Democratic Union

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Democratic_Union_(Germany)#Party_platform">Party platform

The CDU is Christian-based, applying the principles of Christian Democracy, and emphasizes the "Christian understanding of humans and their

responsibility toward God

." People adhering to any confessions and non-confessional people are allowed to be members of the CDU. The CDU's policies encompass derivatives from Political Catholicism and Catholic social teaching, political Protestantism, as well as neoliberalism, fiscal conservatism and national conservatism.

They are a Christian right wing party. So much for the separation of church and state, huh?


By the way, have you heard the latest news about the massive horde of armed Muslims moving rapidly across Holland and heading towards Germany to try and convert all the citizens and impose Sharia law?

Or the German soldiers that are led by a Christian government during a war inside a Muslim country?

[merqz]

61. There is no seperation of Church and State in Germany - they have compulsory tithing

(or the UK for that matter).

Are you aware that Germany has compulsory state run tithing?

[Yo_Mama]

63. Yes I am

But you only pay if you are a member of a church. And you get religious instruction in your faith in school (if it is one of the major ones, but it is religious instruction in YOUR faith. So I would say that Germany has freedom of religion. There is not one state church in practice or in custom. You could go into any church freely, but to be a member you register and pay a tax each year to the state which hands it off to the church.

The name of the party is historical, and doesn't say much about the party itself. It is mildly conservative, i.e. significantly to the left of most US Democrats. Merkel ran on a platform which basically consisted of "jobs, jobs, jobs, jobs, we need to reform to create jobs, jobs, jobs, jobs."

Trying to claim that this is some theocratic thing doesn't wash. Would you support a system in the US that allowed church members to stone homosexuals or adulterers, because that was their faith/cultural tradition? Of course not! And child marriage is out too....

We don't have freedom of religion either, if by freedom of religion one means that one is free to commit a civil crime without penalty because one's religion requires it. Her actual statement really is a rebuttal of Sarrazin's claims in his book. And he was a central bank official!

[merqz]

64. Don't play the strawman thing

I didn't claim it was a theocratic thing. I am saying it refutes any idea that Germany HAS a seperation of Church and State. It doesn't. It does not therefore = a theocracy. That's a fallacy, a very obvious logical fallacy.

[Turborama]

92. "The name of the party is historical, and doesn't say much about the party itself" BS!

Christianity is intrinsic to that party's core structure, it's not just a fancy name they're using for shits 'n giggles.

See their platform for proof: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4563681&mesg_id=4563902

[COLGATE4]

43. Ja. You WILL conform!

Just warms your heart to hear shades of the good old days again.

[hayu_lol]

48. There was a thread from a regular news source a few...

months ago where a large Muslim group asked that footbaths be installed in public bathrooms, particularly at airports so that Muslims could ritually wash their feet following the use of the facilities. Some had been using the washbasins for the purpose and there were reports that they were tearing the washbasins from the wall by doing so.

In their home country, considering the facilities they have, it might be necessary. In this country, it is not necessary--no matter what their religion calls for.

Basic common sense should take over rather than dark ages religion.

If you are Irish, Russian, Mexican whatever...if you come here(or go there)try and stick to the old saw: When in Rome....

Germans have definite rules for their culture. If things are not in order, then they must be put in order immediately. The same rules apply to all in the country, not just the German people themselves. Muslims, or any other group, should bend over backwards to conform with the existing rules of the society they are entering.

Otherwise, they should just stay home.

[Oak2004]

65. The ritual washing is wudu, a religious, not hygienic, obligation

and before you tell me how weird all that is, note that both Jews and Buddhists have religiously mandated washing, too. So for that matter do Christians, but Christians think one ritual washing suffices for a lifetime.

Saying that Muslims should not perform wudu is functionally equivalent to saying Catholics shouldn't perform mass. Saying they shouldn't do it at public facilities is equivalent to saying they should rarely leave their own homes, given that they must have a valid wudu before they can perform obligatory prayers, and they pray a whole lot.

Wudu is absolutely not optional in Islam, no matter how progressive a Muslim one is (and don't give me that crap that there are no progressive Muslims, because there are plenty of them).

If there are enough Muslims in an area that their wudu is ripping the sinks off the wall, then yes, they should be accommodated. Do you complain when ramps are built for wheelchair users, too?

By the way, Islam sets a very high value on hygiene. My guess is that except where poverty intervenes, the Muslims in question came from a more hygienic society to a less hygienic one, not the other way around.

[No Elephants]

101. Does Islam require a footbath? How about washing feet with wipes or Purell or carrying a washcloth

and soap? I am 100% behind not arresting Muslims in an airport because some ignorant stereotyper saw them praying. Requiring an airport to provide footbaths is another story.


"If there are enough Muslims in an area that their wudu is ripping the sinks off the wall, then yes, they should be accommodated."

Ever try to rip a sink in an airport bathroom off a wall? Footwashing alone does not rip a sink off a wall.

"Do you complain when ramps are built for wheelchair users, too?"

Our laws require handicap access--and our Constitution does not prevent that. What does that have to do with it? Have we been denying Muslims access to public places? (And no, lack of a footbath is not the same as denying access or requiring Muslims to stay home.)

My building employs a very devout Muslim. He is allowed time to pray whenever he wishes--no one questions whether Islam requires every break--and also given exclusive use during prayer times to maybe the one area of the building where no dog has ever set foot, er paw, namely, the building manager's office. The building manager vacates when Anwar arrives.)

I fully support both measures. However, if Anwar also insisted that part of the manager's office--or any part of the building--had to be set aside as a footbath and a footbath build at building expense--as a requirement (as opposed bc the building wants to do so)--that would be a different issue.

BTW, the sink in the building's employee john remains securely fastened to the wall.

[Oak2004]

117. Neither wipes, nor Purell, nor soap, are allowed in wudu

and no, the fact that dogs have been present once before does not invalidate somewhere as a place for prayer. Before you make yourself sound ignorant, you should try googling a subject matter you know nothing about.

*One* person washing their feet using the sink will not tear a sink off the wall. Fifty or a hundred is another story.

If there aren't enough parking spaces, cities build parking lots. If there aren't enough seats in an airport waiting area, airports put more in. It isn't all that hard to install a footbath -- cut a hole in the wall and stick a t-fitting on existing piping if you want to do it the nice way, or if you prefer the quick-and-dirty method, just run hose off the existing sink. Raise it up just enough so that you don't need to go down through the floor with the greywater but can send that through an existing pipe. It's not a major construction project.

If there's enough of any minority which engages in any lawful practice, that practice should be accommodated. The majority's practices are always accommodated, usually so automatically they're not even seen as accommodation, but more like the natural order of things. Inevitably some members of that majority get a bug up their ass over any minority having their needs met with equal diligence, screaming to high heaven that what the other guy wants and needs is "excessive" while what they themselves want and need is "normal" (i.e., it's majority-stuff).

And yes, we do discriminate against Muslims in America. We wish they'd never go out on the street, or, better yet, "go back to where they came from" (never mind that a great many of them are where they "came from").

I'm wondering if any of you have noticed the near-silence coming from DU Muslims these days. They exist, you know, or at least used to exist. I used to know a few. Funny, or rather not-so-funny, that the hate that's being spewed towards them has led to such.... silence.

It's for that reason that each and every one of us who is not so biased has a duty to arm ourselves with the facts and speak up, not for some abstract people somewhere else, but for the people we have laughed with, and cried with, and jeered and cheered with, who've comforted us when we needed comfort, and who we have comforted. This silence is coming from our friends, as is, unfortunately, the bigotry.

[Turborama]

124. Your last 3 paragraphs...

...should be am OP.

I've had enough and need a break. I'm going to continue "speaking up" against bigotry on my own blog soon, though.

If any friendly DUers want to keep in touch, please feel free to send a PM.

[ChangoLoa]

100. And we must remember the Germans say 10% of what they actually think on those matters. nt

[and-justice-for-all]

111. Nein, Sie verstehen nicht, was Sie zu sagen hat. nt

[MellowDem]

49. Europe is going right wing on those Muslims nt

[pampango]

50. "belonging is not restricted to a passport, a family history, or a religion"

President Wullf yesterday.

Every immigrant group in every country throughout history has been accused of not wanting to adapt to the values of their new home country. The "natives" get bent out of shape (and some right wing politicians fan the flames for partisan advantage) then the immigrants adapt as always.

Sometimes it is the second and third generations that complete the adaptation. The first generation is almost always wedded to the language and customs of the "old country". When their kids are born, the "old timers" will be looked on as out of touch.

Most Muslims adapt well to their new countries. It's the relatively few fundamentalists (that every religion has) that cause the public perception of unwillingness to adapt.

[Name removed]

79. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wickerwoman]

80. Stupid framing of the issue.

Gender equality and no honor killings are questions of human *rights* not values. It is reasonable to expect citizens to respect established human rights. It is not reasonable to expect them to conform to national "values".

[Bragi]

104. I agree with her sentiment

I live in a liberal democracy that is predicated on respect for each other, core freedoms, equality and democracy. I would support having all potential new citizens being made to affirm those values.

[and-justice-for-all]

110. +1000! nt

[fascisthunter]

105. oh boy.... here we go again

conservatives really are fucked up people. Learn to live with people's differences...

[Bragi]

107. You mean like honour killings, homophobia, etc?

[fascisthunter]

113. your xenophobia is nauseatingly ignorant

speaking of phobias.... to you I guess that is the culture we speak of.... all killers and homophobes. You how stupid that line of thinking is, right?

Not all Muslims are killers and homophobes... I expect this thinking from right wing Fox News watchers.

[Bragi]

115. Your venom is no excuse for rational argument

Calm down, take a deep breath.

Try making a point, rather than just an attack score.

[fascisthunter]

116. whatever

[ProudDad]

123. You're the one who brought out the irrational faux-noise talking points (n/t)

[defendandprotect]

128. Religion is different from any other issue ....it is not a natural "difference" ...

it is a personal belief system which is a threat to governemtn and democracy.

[and-justice-for-all]

109. I agree with Merkel...

You want to live in Germany, fine, You want to practice your religion, fine..But the law is the law and the Germans or anywhere else should not have to subvert their Constitution for the sake of any religious ideology.

The German President has no sway in official matters regarding the state, Merkel on the other hand does. It seems the president spoke prematurely.

[ProudDad]

112. Piss on ALL FLAGS! (n/t)

[Codeine]

121. As long as I get to piss on all religions too. nt

[ProudDad]

122. ABSOLUTELY!

I think it was in the last Papal Encyclical...

Piss on ALL Religions...

Including the FSM...

It's all Foma...

[Zax2me]

114. Is that right?!

German values. Just who defines that? Sounds similar to the family values pushed on this side of the Atlantic.

[entanglement]

118. She could practice those values by trying the German commander who massacred 142 Afghans in Kunduz

What better way to demonstrate the value of the rule of law, right? I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for Frau Merkel, though.

[Zorra]

120. Just think of Angela as Germany's version of Sarah Palin.

She's an ignorant RW wacko. She got elected.

Germany has RW wackos just like we do here in the US.

I have many wonderful, tolerant, very intelligent, liberal friends in Germany. I know that they are appalled at wanna be Fuehrer Merkel's statements, as well at having her as their Chancellor. They are horrified by what Hitler did.

Americans were dumb enough to elect Reagan and Bu*h. But it wasn't you or me that voted for them. God forbid our RW contingent is so stupid as to some day elect Palin.

Just imagine the hate that would be spewing from the WH if Palin were president.

But that would not be our sentiments, just as Merkel's bile is not the sentiment of many German folks.

[defendandprotect]

125. Any nation is wise to maintain separation of church of state -- if you know history!!

[Turborama]

126. True, and Merkel is being a hypocrite

See here for the clear evidence: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4563681&mesg_id=4563902

[defendandprotect]

127. Agree -- Separation of Church and State in ALL governmental affairs ....!!!