White House blocked BP oil spill estimates - Govt panel

[G_j]

Source: Reuters

Wednesday October 6, 2010

White House blocked BP oil spill estimates - Govt panel

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The White House in the spring blocked release of government estimates on the worst-case scenario of the amount of oil that was spewing from BP's well in the Gulf of Mexico, the presidential commission looking into the accident said on Wednesday.

The commission said its staff was told that in late April or early May that the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration wanted to make public some of its long-term, worst-case spill models for the Deepwater Horizon accident and requested approval from the White House's Office of Management and Budget to make the information public.

"Staff was told that the Office of Management and Budget denied NOAA's request," the commission said in a draft report on the amount of oil spilled and what happened to it.

Read more: http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2010/10/7/worldupdates/2010-10-06T211022Z_01_NOOTR_RTRMDNC_0_-519952-1&sec=Worldupdates

[Brickbat]

1. Change! Oh wait.

[G_j]

7. change takes time...

but change is not obstructing of the truth.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

32. ?

:freak:

[G_j]

39. I was in a rush

yea, that makes little sense.

What I meant to say was that change is one thing, hiding information from the public is another. Of course hiding information is something that needs to be changed, so...as Guilda would say,

nevermind...

[rhett o rick]

53. I got it and I agree. Policies and laws take time, not behavior. nm

[SusanaMontana41]

59. I got what you were saying.

What else do progressives need to say that hasn't been said?

[nyc 4 Biden]

85. what you said was crystal clear. n/t

[FrenchieCat]

154. So what is the truth?

Did Salazar go on CNN and tell the American people what the worse case scenario was,
back on May 2nd, or didn't he?

Looks like he did:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x468185

And if he did, why is this story reporting something based on a report that no one has seen,
getting so many Recommends?

And why aren't more folks in this thread line up asking questions instead of swallowing up
this shit reporting?

Why does this thread remind me of this.....?

[G_j]

158. more details

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/10/06/AR2010100603238.html

Gulf oil spill response ill-managed, presidential panel says
Video
Panel: White House blocked oil spill figures

The White House blocked efforts by federal scientists to tell the public just how bad the Gulf oil spill could have been, according to a panel appointed by the president investigating the disaster.

By Steven Mufson and David A. Fahrenthold
Washington Post Staff Writers
Wednesday, October 6, 2010; 9:06 PM

A commission set up by President Obama to scrutinize the Gulf of Mexico oil spill has released preliminary reports that say the administration created the impression that it was "either not fully competent" or "not fully candid with the American people about the scope of the problem."

<snip>


The commission staff's preliminary papers also said that Obama's Office of Management and Budget later delayed a report by government scientists that would have included a "worst-case" estimate of the rate of the spill, weeks before the government revised its own official estimates upward.

<snip>


commission staff's preliminary papers: (pdf)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/documents/WorkingPaperAmountandFateForRelease.pdf

[FrenchieCat]

160. Well, we also have the response from the White House.......

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x468190

Which I'm sure no one is interested in,
cause that would be like hearing both sides,
and of course, we wouldn't want that.....
because well, a "Staff's preliminary" unsigned report
has got to be as good as gold.....,
and this President's motives must have been nefarious! :eyes:

Much better indicting straight away,
and asking more questions later.

And "Coincidently", what better time to raise the anger on the President
a few weeks prior to an election where he is being used as a referendum
by the opposition? How quaint! :applause:

At least one will have to admit that it was Obama that created this "commission",
so I guess the alleged lack of transparency is being discovered by
Obama's willingness to be transparent.

[rainlillie]

163. FrenchieCat

I agree with your take on this.

[G_j]

172. you were groaning about "a report that no one has seen"

I supplied it. Now you have a problem that it's "unsigned" and preliminary.
Do you really think the commission made it public at this time to hurt Democrats?

```

http://motherjones.com/blue-marble/2010/10/just-how-much-did-feds-screw-gulf-spill-estimates?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+motherjones%2FTheBlueMarble+%28Mother+Jones+|+The+Blue+Marble%29


Just How Much Did the Feds Screw Up Gulf Spill Estimates?

— By Kate Sheppard
Thu Oct. 7, 2010 7:27 AM PDT

The four draft staff reports that the National Commission on the BP Deepwater Horizon Oil Spill and Offshore Drilling released yesterday had quite a bit to say about the Obama administration's botched handling of the BP oil spill. You can see the reports on the spill size and dispersant use for more.

But sometimes, an image really does tell you a lot about the story. That is certainly the case with this graph documenting the flow rate estimates from the government and outside experts over the course of the disaster. The blue lines represent the official government estimates and the green lines show how much independent experts said was spewing from the Gulf well every day.

[24601]

153. Meet the new boss - same as the old boss. Gulf issues, hurricanes

or spills - the modern day administration graveyard.

We're going to tell the truth, except when we don't really feel like it.

[xchrom]

2. Recommend

[DJ13]

3. Love that transparency!

[ProSense]

10. Yeah, this

is what transparency looks like:

The continual upward revision of flow rate estimates “undermined public confidence in the federal government’s response to the spill,” the commission staff said in its report to the seven-member investigative panel appointed by President Obama.

<...>

The commission staff also released studies on the use of dispersants, government decision-making and the prospects for oil exploration in the waters off Alaska.

This is the same commission people slammed when the President announced it. This is transparency.

[G_j]

15. after the fact

though I am certainly grateful for the commission's work.

[RetroLounge]

104. Nothing you won't defend.

People have stopped caring about the few times you are correct.

:puke:

RL

[SusanaMontana41]

162. That's not transparency. You're just looking through the White House solar panels.

No worries. I made the same mistake. Lots of us did. :hi:

[northoftheborder]

4. That is rotten.

[DirkGently]

5. Damning, if true.

[WestSeattle2]

151. Call me cynical, but I'm not the least bit surprised. The

government promised New Yorker's the air was safe to breathe at Ground Zero and no harm would come from living and working in that area, in the days following 9/11. Right.

I think most American's have come to realize that commerce comes first in this country now - the almighty dollar trumps the health and well-being of humans and animals.

The government simply cannot be trusted - they lie, cheat and steal when it suits their needs. We can't even trust the economic numbers they spew out - it's all garbage.

[HereSince1628]

6. It was NOT Obama! This was one of those enemies he was keeping CLOSE

I mean, come on people, some of this stuff is OBVIOUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[stranger81]

75. It's three-dimensional chess, obviously.

Oh, and leave Britney alone!!!

[elocs]

82. Oh, chess. I first read "cheese". Well, I'm in Wisconsin after all. n/t

[defendandprotect]

128. It's a very cheesy chess game ... !!

[lark]

86. Keeping a watch on enemies is one thing

Giving them a free hand in his government's policy is totally different and makes no sense at all, unless they are doing what he wants anyway and just providing cover. Comes back to the dilemma a lot of progressives face, is Obama a total corporatist and just lied to us or is he truly progressive and just clueless? I don't think he's clueless.

[obxhead]

111. Who exactly was responsible for putting/keeping those

people in those positions of power that made this decision then?

[HereSince1628]

114. Hey! Look over there!!! A flying saucer!!!!!!!! n/t

[obxhead]

117. I think that answers my question sufficiently.

:rofl:

[saigon68]

8. Disgusting

Loved that scum bag admiral that said it was contained



Oil Company Enabler and Corporate Shill

Although the oil appears to have stopped flowing from the well head, Coast Guard, BP, Transocean, and MMS remain focused on mitigating the impact of the product currently in the water and preparing for a worst-case scenario in the event the seal does not hold. Visual feed from deployed remotely operated vehicles with sonar capability is continually monitored in an effort to look for any crude oil which still has the potential to emanate from the subsurface well.

“From what we have observed yesterday and through the night, we are not seeing any signs of release of crude in the subsurface area. However we remain in a ‘ready to respond’ mode and are working in a collaborative effort with BP, the responsible party, to prepare for a worst-case scenario,” Landry stated early Friday morning.

[Mr. Sparkle]

9. I remember back then that all the estimates were wrong, so what was the point.

no matter what they put out, they would only have to retract it later.

[G_j]

11. for me, the point here is motive.

and I can't think of a legitimate reason for these actions.

[metapunditedgy]

34. Except they censored the worst-case scenarios. That's called bias. n/t

[ProgressiveMajority]

49. Well said, and people were already going nuts, and how do we know Obama made the call?

Release worst case estimate and cause a panic.
OR
Release only more reasonable estimates and hope for the best.

As long as the white house was doing everything they could to control the spill (which I believe they were) then I don't see the problem. Which estimate they release doesn't effect physically at all what the oil is doing!

Also everyone here assumes that this decision is one that Obama personally made. Just as likely it was some lower level person who made the call.

EDIT: Upon further reading, it does look like Obama was personally privy to this choice. But I still stand by my argument that he made the right call. Also to everyone talking about "transparency" I'd like to note that we heard about the story... if there were no transparency we would have NEVER heard about this. If this were Bush/Cheney this story would never have gotten anywhere near the press!

[metapunditedgy]

51. Response to nice summary of talking point list.

1) Releasing info causes a panic.
- In America, we don't like the "government knows best" attitude. We like transparency.
- Selectively withholding the worst estimates is called bias. Scientists who do this lose their credibility. Since the NOAA and folks wanted their opinions to be respected based on their scientific credibility, this is a problem.

2) "You don't need the full truth because I've got this under control."
- See response to #1.

3) "You don't know Obama was involved... oh, wait, never mind."
- Ok.

4) Let's see if we can convince people that censorship is actually transparency.
- No response needed for that one.


Survey says... I don't think those talking points are going to stand up to any scrutiny.

[SusanaMontana41]

60. Can't say it better than that. n/t

[MissDeeds]

76. Yup

Wish I could K&R your post. Bottom line, this crap happened on Obama's watch, and the buck still stops with the president. Excuses are as worthless now as they were under the previous administration.

[molly77]

146. If we can fight wars for oil, what is a cover up for oil spills?

Guess we know who really runs the country.

[AlabamaLibrul]

107. Not to mention that I guarantee you and everyone else that it would have been better to

have just said "We think 50-100,000 barrels are flowing into the Gulf" as opposed to today it's 1,000, tomorrow it's 3,000, okay well, uh, maybe 6,000 or so,

let's call it, 12,000? maybe?

and so on for three months until they finally came out with the real number. It was like getting kicked in the head every time Thad Allen came on the TV.

Not this pseudo-hopeful "it won't be so bad" estimate followed by our worst fears and dragging us along to feel lied to the whole way.

[metapunditedgy]

120. Plus it made the scientists look bad. The very people who were supposed to bring credibility

to the situation were playing along. The whole thing is dirty.

[defendandprotect]

131. +1000% ... plus it builds suspicion, like why the freeze on off-shore drilling has been lifted???

Because everyone performed so well and everything went so well?

Oh, yeah -- "The Gulf will bounce back!" ------------?????????????

[Oak2004]

149. And let me add

(from my emergency management training)-- releasing information that is, to the best of your knowledge, accurate, never causes panic. Speculation, rumors, and the sense that people are being kept in the dark sometimes causes panic, but the notion that the public is a seething mass of irrationality ready to panic at the first bit of bad news is not borne out by research. People, by and large, are reasonable and act constructively during crises. We do as a species come with a survival instinct, after all.

[No Elephants]

88. LOL!

[sabrina 1]

144. We also heard the story of the 9/11 First Responders.

Right while it was happening, people were raising questions about the lack of safety equipment for those working at the site. But as always, we were told to 'STFU' because Giuliani knew best. He was 'America's Mayor' after all.

And the story was covered up, by the media, the government and Republicans. Now, years later, how many have died? How many have no health care because they had to quit their jobs?

You know what, politicians will be fine, even if they lose an election, they will live, like the war criminals Cheney and Bush, happily ever after with lots of money to take care of their every need.

I gave up defending politicians regardless of party after I saw Clinton and Bush cavorting around the world together and heard Barbara Bush say the Clinton was like a son to her. Years of defending the Clintons, and all the time they were part of that elite club where no one ever suffers any consequences no matter how egregious the crimes.

I care about ordinary people. If we had clamored and refused to go away ten years ago, many of those 9/11 heroes might be alive today.

Same thing with the Exxon Valdez. People died because no one cared enough, or didn't want their favorite politicians held accountable.

And here we are again. BP's human rights record around the world should have made them unacceptable to do business here to begin with.

Americans are far too tolerant. At least in Colombia and elsewhere the people have risen up against them, and many have been murdered for standing up to these Mega Corps.

Here, depending on which political party we belong to, we are willing to give these Corporations a pass.

I believe the reports I read that the dispersant used by BP can cause serious harm to sea-life and human life are true. And that long after this story leaves the news, people will be dying and/or sick, but the CEOs will have gotten their 'lives back' by then, and no one will care, just as no one cares about the 9/11 heroes.

[stranger81]

77. The problem wasn't that all the estimates were wrong.

The problem was that the estimates the public were given were wrong -- exponentially and probably deliberately.

[liberation]

89. Seriously?

What. The. Fuck.

[No Elephants]

97. So the answer was to withhold the worst news?

[Divernan]

12. Absolutely no excuse or legal or ethical rationalization for this.

As others have noted, this is not an issue of "change". It's not a matter of claiming Obama accomplished PART of his presidential duty and we shouldn't demand 100% perfection. It's not a matter of correcting some past deception by Bush/Rove/Chaney - this is a here-and-now, moment of truth for Obama, and he failed.

This is as despicable as when Bush and his chairman of White House Council on Environmental Quality/corporate shill James Connaughton, forced Christie Todd Whitman to lethally change the EPA report on the air quality at Ground Zero (the day after 9/ll) and state that it was safe for first responders to keep digging and others to return to work and live there. (Bush et al wanted Wall Street up and running at once).

When Obama took his wife and kids to another part of the gulf coast and did a photo op of them swimming briefly in the Gulf waters, it reminded me of that scene in Jaws where the Mayor forces his wife and kids into the shark-infested waters in front of all the media.

So here we are, with government agencies like NOAA or the EPA which are capable of and willing to measure and report dangerous matters to the American public - really critical matters like the safety of the air we breathe, and the water from which we get the seafood we eat (and which is also used for hog/cattle feed, so gets into land based food sources as well) and we are cursed with yet another President whom we cannot trust for the most basic protection.

What corporation's profit margin will he be protecting next? Big Pharmaceuticals? Big water utilities? Big Coal? Big Oil and Gas?

Where are all the Obama apologists on this matter?

[Iowa]

35. +1

[metapunditedgy]

36. There were a lot of people defending BP (both vocally and silently). This is not a good story

for them, so I would not expect them to show up.

[truedelphi]

40. So far Obama has protected and enabled and helped:

Monsanto

Military Industrial Complex

War Criminals whose names we will never know, as Obama's people blocked the trial of one individual who had tortured in Abu Gharib and that trial would have brought about the chain of command, and many more reprehensible types would have been revealed, and then prosecuted

BP

Goldman Sachs and AIG

The Big Financial Players

Big Pharmaceuticals

Big Insurers

But hey, his Administration is furthering stem cell research, so if guilt brings about illness that stem cell research can cure, the rich at the top will have the technology available to them!

[SusanaMontana41]

66. Nice list. It may be too short. But how would we know? n/t

[molly77]

147. And we should vote democratic in Nov. f ? Neither

party represents the US. WE need another party or two.

[janewin]

174. exactly

I keep telling people, its not about the letter at the end of their name but the principles the hold. This is the same thing going on with the tea party, they all support and vote for any idiot who claims to be a tea party candidate. As it is, u cannot distinguish some of the blue dogs and the repubs and that says a lot.

The bad dems stifle the presidents agenda, waters down the bills and give us all a bad name and the sooner we realize that, the better for us

[speppin]

65. plus plus....

[fishbulb703]

73. Great points. +1

Hit the nail on the head there.

[metapunditedgy]

13. As I've said before... It's "business as usual" until BP execs are in jail. And I'm not

holding my breath.

[OnyxCollie]

14. But it's OK when our guy does it!

And have you seen how dreamy he looks in a swimsuit?

[nashville_brook]

67. IOKWWDI is hot hot hot!

(it's okay when we do it)

[MissDeeds]

81. +1000

Interesting how quickly righteous indignation tanks when our guy does something indefensible. Pretty sickening. Right is right and wrong is wrong, regardless of the letter after your name.

[EFerrari]

16. Obama is not Superman. He can't go down there and plug the hole himself!

--------->>> :sarcasm: <<<----------

[skepticscott]

18. What does that have to do with any of this?

What prevented him from being honest and open about what was going on? What forced him to cover up the truth? Nothing.

[EFerrari]

20. That was one of the refrains around here

when the well was still open.

[OnyxCollie]

21. :sarcasm:

From those who argued (with good reason) that the administration was letting BP run the show.

Who was right now?

[G_j]

22. you forgot something

:hi: :rofl: ;)

[EFerrari]

25. Oops.

:)

[G_j]

27. what is funny

is that is you can probably find that quote, word for word...

[obxhead]

113. 100's of times on this site alone.

[CLANG]

23. Yes, but he is Aquaman. He could have directed a school of whales to plug the hole!

[Roy Rolling]

55. Get real!

Whales? Puhleeeeze. Now sharks with laser beams attached to their freakin' heads---that's a solution that would have worked.

[CLANG]

61. You get real!! You're living in a fantasy world - that comes from a movie screenplay!

[liberation]

90. No kidding... with the current budget crisis....

... a school of ill tempered sea bass is the best the govt could have assembled.

[EFerrari]

80. Sharks were in charge of the crisis and they still are. n/t

[hulka38]

100. Nicely done.

[Enrique]

170. heh

:rofl:

[JDPriestly]

17. And now we are getting some change in the White House

Isn't the head of that OMB office being changed? Rahm and Summers have left. Maybe we will get some honest people in there.

[metapunditedgy]

30. Are you saying Rahm and Summers were responsible for coddling BP? I doubt they

would want to have that put on their shoulders.

[JDPriestly]

33. I believe that the head of the OMB is also being changed.

But Rahm and Summers were responsible for a lot of the arrogance of this administration. Obama is the least arrogant president I can remember. Summers and Rahm -- well, we've had more arrogant administrations but those two were a bit heavy-handed compared to the rest of the Obama administration.

[defendandprotect]

19. Pitiful . . . . until we nationalize oil industry, we're at the mercy of corporate pressure

on government -- and as we can see, it works!!

Oil is also a "national security issue" 'cause MIC uses 80% of it -- !!!

We need to restore the 26 year moritorium on off-shore drilling and nationalize

the oil industry!

Until we do that, we'll get no where in stopping the burning of fossil fuels!

Btw, for those who don't know -- the Democratic Platform which JFK ran on in 1960

CALLED FOR NATIONALIZING THE OIL INDUSTRY!

[G_j]

24. +1000

[bherrera]

29. Nationalized oil companies don't work well

Nationalization does not seem like a good answer. Nationalized companies don't work well. Look at the disaster in the Former Soviet Union.

[GeorgeGist]

68. Ever heard of Norway's Statoil?

Ever notice that Norway ranks near the top in quality of life?

Maybe the Norwegians are on to something.

[liberation]

94. He only hears whatever he is paid to hear...

... ironic since he supposedly comes from a country, Spain, which had their oil companies nationalized until relatively recently.

[defendandprotect]

126. Thanks for the laugh ... and OUCH .... what happened in Spain?

[Name removed]

135. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[defendandprotect]

138. Thanks for the info ....

and if I understand correctly EU changed some of their rules/standards --

Glad someone is watching the "t" -- !!

:evilgrin:

[liberation]

92. LOL

of course you'd say that...

[defendandprotect]

125. NATIONALIZING the oil industry is the O N L Y answer ...

The idea that any of our natural resources should be under the control of private interests

is ludicrous!

[metapunditedgy]

31. Can we try something small and simple, like putting corporate criminals in jail?

Nationalization is too big as a first step, but just a tiny bit of oh-so-needed justice should be easy, right? Corporate executives are held accountable for their actions every day in America... not.

[truedelphi]

42. Apparently not. When a local jurisdiction filed charges against someone culpable of War Crimes,

Obama's people blocked the trial. If the trial had gone through, we would have not only had that individual in prison, but also anyone else whose name surfaced (basically the chain of command) may have been indicted as well.

[bherrera]

56. The Dpt of Justice has an open case

11 persons are dead, and the forensic data will take time to investigate. Some of it was recovered from the sea floor only recently. I am reading the material, and it appears the criminal case is weak, because the main guilty party may have died in the explosion.

[metapunditedgy]

58. Thanks much for the information. Does that sound encouraging to you? n/t

[lark]

99. BP apologist - as usual

Yeah, I'm sure this man was the only one responsible for continuing to run the platform with a bad BP. No one else at BP had a clue - NOT!!

[metapunditedgy]

102. Nor was there any pressure from the top to increase profits by cutting safety. That

would be counter to the principles of free-market trade, which depends on the honesty and trust of all participants. Therefore it did not happen. QED.

[Nihil]

164. Sounds like you'd be interested in this thread ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4566317

> The co-chair of the panel, U.S. Coast Guard Capt. Hung Nguyen, told a crowded
> hearing room in a New Orleans suburb that members for two months have been
> trying to get Transocean to turn over materials related to its compliance with
> international safety management codes.

Or does your angst only extend to BP rather than the people who not only owned
the rig but were the ones operating it at the time and who were responsible for
flooding & capsizing the rig?

[defendandprotect]

127. I'd also like to "nationalize" our military again ... is that too complicated, as well...????

It's not the fact taht any thing is too big a first step --

the reality is that those private interests which hold sway over our

natural resources are now very well financed .... at our expense!

[Iowa]

37. Yep. But we have a long way to go because right now we have the opposite...

Not only is the oil industry not nationalized - our WH and government has been "corporatized".

[Little Star]

79. Bingo!

[defendandprotect]

132. Excellent point -- !!!! ..... "our WH and government have been 'corporatized'" -- !!!!

:evilgrin:

[Raster]

47. The MIC and the Texas-American Petroleum Mafia are symbiotic entities.

They need each other to survive. They will do anything to support the other's best interests.

[defendandprotect]

133. Sadly, yes .... two out of control programs/agendas .....we need to rein in BOTH--!!

[tjwash]

48. The U.S. govt can nationalize a British based company....how? Invading England?

I love simple solutions to uncomplicated issues :thumbsup:

[ljm2002]

101. Hmmm, I never heard of invasion as a nationalization technique...

...usually, the resources and equipment of the targeted industry in the host country are taken over by the government, and the government pays the private companies what they consider to be a fair price for it. They don't just seize it and say tough luck, and they don't invade the country where the owning company is HQ'd.

[defendandprotect]

136. You haven't ....? What do you think Columbus did? What of Hawaii ....

Philippines, Vietnam, etal -- ?

WHAT OF IRAQ ?????

THAT was Cheney who divvied up the Iraqi oil fields pre-9/11-- !!!

[ljm2002]

140. I am well aware of our history...

...of invading countries to take their resources, and also just because we feel like it.

That, however, was not the point of discussion. The point of discussion was something called "nationalization". It's when a government decides that they need to be in control of the resources contained within their own borders, and in general it means said government buys back the equipment and resources from the companies they had allowed to extract the resources.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalization

http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/history/A0834953.html

Of course, when it comes to words and their meanings, maybe you are like Humpty Dumpty:

"When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master— that's all."

[defendandprotect]

142. There are still AMERICAN oil companies --- and the Gulf is still ours???

If you're aware of our history -- act like it!

We NATIONALIZED an entire continent!!

And millions of human beings from Africa to put into slavery -- !!

[defendandprotect]

134. NATIONALIZING our natural resources .... means OUR natural resources... and the GULF is one of them!

BP should be thrown out of the Gulf -- and out of any oil operation in US!

As far as I know, we still have oil left -- nationalize it -- including the

industry connected to it -- refineries, etal.

[ksecus]

26. meet the new boss. nt

[truedelphi]

46. Hi there.

Welcome to DU.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Iowa]

38. They never left.

[leveymg]

41. Ghosts are like that. Some places are haunted and do strange things to the occupants.

I imagine the White House has many, many ghosts of the victims of the Dead Presidents and the mad men who have occupied the place and never wanted to leave.

These guys seem to know all about that:

[Poll_Blind]

43. The ghosts I think about are the ones leftover in the Intelligence complex from the...

...Bush era. Who, arguably (in so many ways) are holdovers from the Reagan/Nixon era.

They're mostly the same mouth whispering the same things, just into different ears.

PB

[leveymg]

50. Oh, the spooks . . . you'd be surprised how many committee staffers and

interns on Capitol Hill and the WH are on temporary leave from the IC. Some of them never leave.

But, seriously, I think this was just plain politics and the normal calculus of bureaucratic Washington. Don't piss off powerful people, unless you have to and your ass is fully covered from above and below. I imagine BP was simply treated by the Administration and various departments as a Powerful Person. Very much so.

[rhett o rick]

54. They were just front guys (not men, they are not men). Did you notice how easily they relinquished

their power? Someone told them to be good boys and bow out quietly.

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bherrera]

57. Securing a $20 billion fund from BP was not submissive

You expect too much. Don't forget the Democrats are about to lose a lot of seats, and this is in part caused by the impatience and lack of pragmatism so many hard core democrats exhibit.

[girl gone mad]

74. You're blaming the customers..

for rejecting a defective product.

The first rule in marketing: Never over-promise and under-deliver.

[No Elephants]

95. LOL!

[barbtries]

45. sigh

too much like the previous administration for my taste. is the office of mgmt & budget still populated by bushies?

[jobycom]

52. Read closely. This sucks, but not as bad as the lies of the Bush administration.

They withheld a projection based on a worst-case model, not actual information on the facts of the spill. Bush withheld information that would have cleared a nation of the charges he used to invade that nation and murder a million innocent people.

Yeah, it sucks. It shows that Obama is a politician who controls information released to the public to improve his image. Worse, it went against the message of "It's not so bad" that he was trying to convey, which calls into doubt everything else he says or releases to the public, because it proves that transparency is just a talking point. It's manipulative and dishonest.

I'm pissed. But it's not just like Bush and Cheney. It's just like every other politician, though.

[G_j]

62. well, I imagine that

if Bush had even appointed a commission at all, he would have made sure the findings were buried. So yes, by some degree, they were worse. Still, there is no excuse.

[jobycom]

72. Yep. Bush wouldn't have appointed a commission, he'd have hired a PR firm. nt

[flyarm]

143. and what exactly do you think BP has done nationwide to bullshit you that don't live on the Gulf?

Under the watchful Eye of this administration and White House????????????

[newtothegame]

108. That's the kicker. The last 21 months have pretty much been like every other politican.

The kicker is that folks somehow convinced themselves, for reasons still unknown and with no evidence to back it up, that somehow THIS ONE was different.

[metapunditedgy]

121. So when a politician SAYS they will be different in their campaign speeches,

everyone should just laugh at them?

[tavalon]

148. I'm afraid that's what will happen in this corner

I'm one of the ones who convinced myself that this one was different. It's been a hard, bitter making 18 months. I would have done better to vote for Cynthia Mckinney like my friend did. He's sailing through and doesn't have nearly the disappointment I have. As he said just recently, he's a politician, therefore he behaves like one.

[Bluebear]

63. Yes They Did!

[nashville_brook]

64. oh no they did'n --

oh wait.

Yes, They Did.

fuck.

[madrchsod]

69. no big surprise....

it just comfirms what a hell of a lot of people thought about the whitehouse`s role in this disaster.

[stranger81]

70. **faceplant**

I shouldn't even bother to ask anymore whose side the administration is on. Unfortunately, it's not ours.

[ProSense]

71. It's a headline to grab attention when the report isn't remotely damning

In fact, there is information here that contracdicts all the claims that the adminstration never responded adequately or engaged independent scientist, and the accurate numbers came from Secretary Chu PDF

<...>

Thus, although there is evidence to suggest that the worst-case discharge figures BP disclosed to the Unified Command and Congress did not conform to its internal worst-case estimates,43 front-line responders may have based their decision-making on estimates roughly reflecting the magnitude of the spill. But despite the fact that the Unified Command had this information, relied on it for operations, and publicly stated that it was operating under a worst-case scenario, the government never disclosed what its operational scenario was. As a confidential NOAA report drafted on April 28, 2010, noted: “There is no official change in the volume being released but the is no longer stating that the release rate is 1,000 barrels a day. Instead they are saying that they are preparing for a worst-case release and bringing all assets to bear.”44 Responders stuck to this blueprint, stating that, while 1,000 or 5,000 bbls/day were the official best flow-rate estimates, the government was scaling the response to an unquantified worst-case scenario.45

The decision to withhold worst-case discharge figures may have been made above the operational level. It is the understanding of the Commission staff that the possibility of releasing the worst-case discharge figures was at least discussed at the Unified Command level.46 The Commission staff has also been advised that, in late April or early May 2010, NOAA wanted to make public some of its long-term, worst-case discharge models for the Deepwater Horizon spill, and requested approval to do so from the White House‟s Office of Management and Budget.47 Staff was told that the Office of Management and Budget denied NOAA‟s request.48

The Commission may wish to consider recommendations that encourage government responders to disclose information about the scenarios under which they are operating—in this case, the operational worst-case discharge estimates. Putting aside the question of whether the public had a right to know the worst-case discharge figures, disclosure of those estimates, and explanation of their role in guiding the government effort, may have improved public confidence in the response. Instead, government officials attempted to assure the public that they were not basing operations on the official flow-rate estimates, while not stating what they were basing operations on instead. That lack of information may have contributed to public skepticism about whether the government appreciated the size of the Deepwater Horizon spill and was truly bringing all of its resources to bear. Moreover, the national response may have benefited early on from a greater sense of urgency, which public discussion of worst-case discharge figures may have generated.49

<...>

Although responders stated that accurate flow-rate estimates were not important to their operations, the Unified Command eventually felt a need to assert leadership on the issue, possibly as a result of media attention and public criticism of the low early numbers.51 On May 19, 2010, the National Incident Command spearheaded the creation of an inter-agency Flow Rate Technical Group (Flow Rate Group) and charged it with generating (1) a preliminary flow rate as soon as possible and (2) a final flow-rate estimate based on peer reviewed methodologies within two months.52 On May 23, 2010, Dr. Marcia McNutt, Director of the U.S. Geological Survey and Science Advisor to the Secretary of the Interior, was appointed the Group‟s leader.53

The Flow Rate Group was originally comprised of three sub-groups, made up of both governmental and non-governmental scientists: (1) the Plume Modeling Team, which used the Particle Image Velocimetry method to estimate flow velocity from video of the leaks; (2) the Mass Balance Team, which estimated spill size from aerial images taken by NASA‟s AVARIS aircraft; and (3) a team that analyzed the flow captured by the Riser Insertion Tube Tool to establish a baseline flow rate.

The Flow Rate Group enlisted non-governmental scientists with applicable expertise and experience, including Dr. Wereley, a critic of the low early estimates. The Group‟s initial estimates, however, proved chronically low, too. Moreover, the Group‟s later, more accurate estimates relied primarily upon data collected by a team led by Secretary of Energy Dr. Steven Chu and a team from the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution, though the Group did play a significant role in analyzing and interpreting this data.

The initial success of the Flow Rate Group is questionable given that it did not release an arguably accurate flow-rate estimate until mid-June, when Secretary Chu‟s team was able to provide the Group with data. The Group‟s estimates may also have suffered from a failure to disclose enough information to enable other experts to assess the group‟s methodologies and findings. If more of the Group‟s data had been made public, its estimates may have evolved more rapidly with input from the broader scientific community.54
51

<...>

We now know that the high end of this estimate was accurate because of pressure readings from a sensor that Secretary Chu‟s team had BP place in the Top Hat above the blowout preventer on June 13, 2010.70 These sensor readings, along with data on the amount of oil being captured by the Top Hat and an estimate of the percentage of oil still escaping into the Gulf, allowed Secretary Chu‟s team to generate a flow rate estimate of approximately 60,000 bbls/day.71

On June 14, 2010, Secretary Chu and his team, Secretary Salazar, and members of the Flow Rate Group hosted a conference call.72 On the call, the teams decided that they would jointly announce a flow-rate range of 35,000-60,000 bbls/day. The Chu team‟s estimate accounted for the high end of the range, while the Flow Rate Group‟s work provided the low end.73

<...>

In other words, the administration's response was based on worse-case-scenario and attempts to get more reliable data by engaging outside scientist still produced numbers that were too low. This is a case of the administration erring on the side of caution when there were no reliable estimates. Secretary Chu's numbers look like they came closest.

[The Wielding Truth]

105. Thanks. This post and the link didn't really show any proof. I kept reading

until I got some logical proof. It just didn't seem to be enough to jump in with the "I distrust Obama" crowd.

[Kdillard]

Thank you. The nastiness in this thread is disappointing but not

surprising.

[humbled_opinion]

78. The more things change....

I still have a hard time figuering out the substantial differences between the guy in the White House now and the Guy that just left.... Oh yeah one of them got a Nobel Peace Prize... and still managed to escalate war.... Silly me...

[City Lights]

83. That lump under the rug keeps on growing and growing and growing...

x(

[blindpig]

84. Timing is everything....

This timing clearly favored BP.

[QC]

87. How very, very hopeful and changealicious! n/t

[Zax2me]

91. Nationalize the oil industry....

Is that so hard?
Or at least hold them accountable for established federal guidelines. Guidelines that by the way need an overall and should not be regarded as 'flexible'.

[humbled_opinion]

118. Now you see right there...

That would be some radical change, of course you allow the free market to develop the alternative fuel, hydrogen or something replenishable, but in the mean time you means price your gasoline rationed by the government and guess what those rich folks well instead of paying the same $3 per gal I pay they can pay 10k per gallon and then they would feel it as the needed commoditiy quickly emptied their cash reserves.

Then we would all have skin in the game.

[Peregrine Took]

93. And like adding Hillary to this disaster is going to make everything better???

[Autumn]

98. How interesting that Hillary was not mentioned

at all in the article. :crazy:

[Beacool]

173. What the heck are you talking about??????

:crazy:

[ccarnow]

96. Inmates running the asylum

My question is when we are going to get really solid regulations that prevent another disaster or these kind of half-measures that simply set us for the next crisis (see financial reform.). Do any of you have any confidence left the Admin which is filled with smart people, will do the right thing politically and environmentally?

[ccarnow]

119. re:

Speaking of inmates running the asylum,

Look whose running in Anaheim
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRvE4XiVtFc

[Moondog]

103. Can't get the peasants riled up, can we?

Assholes. :mad:

[metapunditedgy]

122. The peasants should sit quietly and watch their property values plummet and

their fishing industry get destroyed while the government takes a $20B bribe to protect BP's remaining assets.

[jimlup]

106. Couldn't we just hold this news until after the elections...

I'm being wishful, I realize that is ridiculous.

[obxhead]

109. So this is what transparency looks like.

Not be clear and truthful at the beginning. Get caught doing something stupid in the end.

Ahhhhh the warm blanket that change is.

[ProSense]

110. OMB denies it suppressed oil flow data during BP spill

here

[defendandprotect]

124. And the new guy at OMB is an ex-Citicorp executive ... thanks Obama...!!!

We'll probably be laundering drug money right thru government agencies now!!

[liberation]

137. Hey, that is a change...

... before they used Goldman people for that position.

[defendandprotect]

139. All of the banks seem to be involved ....

but think Citicorp led the pack -- !?

Our DOJ evidently knows this, but is too filled with Bush "loyalists" to bother

doing anything about it!

ugh!

[Turbineguy]

112. "estimates of worst-case scenario"

Much better to create panic than wait for facts.

[flyarm]

145. The facts were known by the scientists ..they were silenced! By this White House

some of the scientists were on our local news giving the worst case scenerio early on in the gusher, with in days ..they were immediately silenced!

Gulf Resident

[SteveM]

115. By now, no surprise. The Democratic Party and Obama won't oppose corporate power...

They are in a struggle to displace the GOP as the party worthy of corporate support. As long as corporate power gets what they want, they will address some of the peripheral issues others may have.

Some hard facts, I believe:

The country is not polarized; our politics is one hairy-assed Van de Graaf generator made up of the Right, the Far Right, and the crap-in-your-pants-and-go-to-heaven Right. There is no opposition to this condition. And NO ONE wants anything to do with the "Left," the left being anything more liberal than JFK.

[metapunditedgy]

123. But all those far-right 'muricans want gov't-managed health care. Don't forget that. n/t

[fascisthunter]

116. Nationalize the Oil Companies... Oil is too much of a Security Issue

and these companies should not be using the power of the government and military to increase profits. But we live in a fascist system where the line between business and gov is being blurred.

[Generic Other]

129. No longer surprised by any lie or cover-up

that protects multi-national corporations. This oily crap smells like fascism to me.

[Bluebear]

161. +

[ooglymoogly]

130. "You can't handle the truth," shouted

president Queeg, his nostrils flaring, screeching at the lefties being ushered from the room.

Traveling at the speed of light; his lost bearings rattling loudly in his sweaty hand; clakety, clack, clakety clack; A small bead of sweat captured a shaft of light...white fire in a halo of soft gold in so dark a room.

In the shafts of shine, motes danced like firefly's; fluttering in a Busby Berkley ceremonial sacrifice; a halo of the blond blue eyed Jesus, glinting through the only window of this small, most secret of rooms; in the most secret of agencies in the most secretive of administrations.

Turning to the remaining gaggle of oil executives,
intelligence, military brass and bankers; bright white calla lillys sprouting from the table in the dim light, gilded with the glint of medals; from the foliage of the most powerful of power suits;
his voice nearly exhausted;
his eyes now glazed; Queeg continued.

"One would think a gazillion barrels of oil in a tiny pristine sea, is a big thing;"..said Queeg...searching the smoke filled room for approval...the nods so loud the walls of Jericho could be heard tumbling down...."its not the oil he said", pausing for sheer drama; "Its the principle of the thing," he glanced furtively at the oil execs, barely visible in the shadows...smirking....nodding like Lucifer at the capture of one more very precious soul...

and what a soul it was....

In Queegs' ear; the sound of swirling cyclones, rushing to oblivion...circling black mists of dark wraiths spoke in a cacophony so loud as to be barely heard.

Lefty white noise it was, as far as Queeg was concerned...as they furtively burned all the damning evidence in a strangely glowing chalice.

For within that burning chalice a thousand angry Tinker Bells were furiously circling, burning so bright, the eye was momentarily blinded,

for burning in that chalice was all the honor that was left in these men.

[flyarm]

141. "WE" the people of the Gulf were telling the truth and yet we were called liars! The Liars are and

were in the White House.

We toldd people they were spraying despersants over the Gulf an over our homes, but we were called liars ..when it was the White House that was the liars!

The people of the Gulf had the right to know the full truth..not a White House that was covering up for a Froreign Oil Corp!

We had Poison sprayed over us to cover up how bad the gusher was. And this White House IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THAT!

How many of our residents will contract cancers and Respitory disease from this, only time will tell. But this White House will be responsible for it!

Our beaches, our Air , our marshes and our roadways and the air space, the Coast Guard and Homeland security were turned over to the control of BP!

Our White House is responsible for that!

[Divernan]

152. The cover up about the location, content & amount of dispersants contiues.

Either the feds authorized/carried out those covert flights, or they approved BP's covert actions. You are absolutely right. The medical fallout will continue for years, if not decades. The coverup is to protect themselves from liability and/or political fallout. And when the medical problems evidence themselves, you will see the same government denial they gave to Agent Orange for decades.

There were many reports of independent scientific groups being stonewalled when they requested data -and of reporters/scientists even being physically stopped from taking samples at beaches.

My deepest sympathies to the people of the Gulf for what you have endured and will continue to endure.

And for all the Obama true believers, the WH got their spin on and are totally blameless, donchaknow? The DU true believers are now piling on, calling any Obama critics "gullible at best".
Funny, nobody called me or my many fellow,long time Democratic progressive volunteers gullible when we were campaigning for Obama in the primary and general elections.

[flyarm]

166. you have that 100% right..and I am damn sick of all the apologists ..

they sure didn't breathe what My family was forced to breathe...they won't be getting the cancers or respiratory diseases..they haven't seen their property values drop through the bottom..they can go fuck themselves..

they were the ones who told us we were lying in April and early May when we said our air was almost unbreathable..and we were getting sore throats and headaches, and our eyes were burning for weeks on end..and we were being lied to.

But this is one lady who did not and will not stop telling the truth about the cover up of Obama and his administration!

I laid in my bed looking out on the Gulf and watched the planes spraying the dispersant over the Gulf..as my back yard is the Gulf. I watched the damn planes fly over all night long..in the dark of night...but what our government didn't plan on was that many of us could see the planes..

I am a retired 33 year Flight crew for a major airline..one involved on 9/11..I know aircraft..I know planes!
And I know when they are spraying..and I have super duper binoculars that I can watch anything flying over the Gulf anywhere near me on the Gulf.

I WATCHED THEM WITH MY OWN EYES!

And I damn well know what I smelled for a couple weeks..it was putrid..it began smelling like the worst rotten onions..then went on to smell like turpentine..and I know damn well it took 4 & 5 days before our local media had to finally address the smell..and it went down the coast ..hundreds of miles!

And I know damn well our government and this White House lied about it!

So I don't give one rats ass what the apologists lie about now..they have done nothing but lie from the get go!

THEY ARE ON SOMEONE'S PAYROLL!

They are nothing but damned liars! They have no credibility with anyone with a brain! They are the dog shit I would wipe off my shoes!

[Divernan]

167. According to some O true believers, you & I are just "gullible, at best".

I notice these apologists don't have the cojones to reply to you directly. Apparently, until the next election at least, Obama's put the word out that the politically correct term for progressives is "gullible". Gotta get us suckers back to the polls. Then after the election they can call us retards again.

I'll be at the polls all day, as judge of elections. And I'll vote for the progressive dems on the slate. That's it. As for my Blue Dog Congressman, I will be "sitting on my hands", as one of the senior Committeemen in my county put it. Oh, don't worry, DINOs, he'll get re-elected easily, having raised absolute tons of money from his GOP/corporate supporters. They luuuuuuuuuuuuuuve him. (And this committeeman knows the blue dog personally, and campaigned hard for him the first time around. Now he says, "Electing him was a big mistake.")

All of us real, long-time Dem liberal activists are biding our time until the next primary. It's either boot out the Blue Dogs or acquiesce in the death of the Democratic Party.

Your posts are powerful. Keep posting that same information every chance you get!

[flyarm]

168. My eyes are not gullible! I am a lifelong professional.

My job for 33 years was to save lives! In aircraft ..and I flew the world..I know what i saw..I know what i breathed as does everyone who lives on the Gulf..

Like I said these apologists are like dog shit on the bottom of my shoes! I wipe that shit off ..with disdain!

Seems some are willing to lie for any price!

I can't be bought ..nor will I ever be bought.

No one's health should ever be compromised. Like those of us on the Gulf have had perpetrated on us!

There will always be 5 cent whores who would sell out their fellow citizens! They would sell out their mothers and their own children! They have the credibility of dog shit!

They have sold out the children in the Gulf states, they have sold them out to cancers we can only guess now what we will be seeing in the future...and when the cancers start showing up...or the respiratory diseases start showing up in children...they will be long gone..having collected their $20.00 paychecks!

I just wonder how some of these liars sleep at night or look into their mirrors ...but it seems none of them have a problem doing so!

They should have their faces rubbed into the dog shit they keep passing out!

They know who they are..and most of us here know as well..they hide from no one!

[Divernan]

169. Most of us here know who they are -

A few of them were real shocks to me - I thought they were independent thinkers. For sure, none of THEM were personally exposed to the black ops night time dispersant flights. They doubtless think of themselves as loving parents - but just of THEIR unexposed kids, not anyone else's. How DO they look themselves in the mirror at night?"

"They have sold out the children in the Gulf states, they have sold them out to cancers we can only guess now what we will be seeing in the future...and when the cancers start showing up...or the respiratory diseases start showing up in children...they will be long gone..having collected their $20.00 paychecks!"

They will never dare respond to your comments - until and unless the White House dares to spin the story of the night time flights. And then we "gullible" "retards" will be expected to believe whatever they claim, without any independent scientific data.

[Name removed]

150. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FrenchieCat]

155. What it proves to me is that the "Follower" attitude is thick even here......

and even those labelling themselves as real Progressives,
never take enough time out to even question the voracity of any news outfit,
and would choose to disbelieve the President instead of an AP source....
Like a herd following the Shepherd if he is carrying a stick that they like.



In reference to not telling the Public about the worse case scenario,
I don't believe it, cause I saw Salazar do just that with my eyes on CNN:

May 2nd CNN Interview transcript:

SALAZAR: From day one, there has been the assumption here on the worst-case scenario. And so the--

CROWLEY: What is the worst-case scenario, while we're on that?

SALAZAR: The worst-case scenario is we could have 100,000 barrels or more of oil flowing out. And the requirements BP has is to have the capability to respond to that kind of a spill. And it means doing everything that's going on, including containing the well down at the bottom, mitigating the impacts on the sea, mitigating impacts as things happen on shore.
http://archives.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1005/02/sotu.01.html

[flyarm]

171. You don't want to KNOW what I think of your attitude! ..and your cover ups! eom

[countmyvote4real]

156. This is why we need more progressive Democrats in Congress.

Under majority leader Pelosi, the 111th House has done a remarkable job of passing much needed reformed legislation that went on to die in the Senate due to GOP obstruction with the help of some very bad blue dogs and an independent party-of-me misanthrope. And I would be remiss if I didn't include the tepid leadership from the Obama administration. And while the right wing wants to make these midterm elections about "Obama-care" and his legitimacy, bla bla bla; we need to address our own misgivings about the Obama administration's many false policy steps. too. We can't do this by refusing to participate or voting for some angry teabag malcontent.

We need to ensure there are more progressives in the Congressional mix that can lead him rather than compromise and obstruct the change and ideals he promised. Unfortunately, the primaries are over and in many cases we're stuck with the lesser of two or three options for the one that has a D on their party ballot. If I lived in Arkansas I would have to hold my nose and vote for Blanche Lincoln just to ensure we retain majority control of the Senate. And frankly, that's all she's good for.

And let's be real about this. If the GOP takes control of either the House or the Senate, they will not be investigating this issue of corporate/government compromise for BP. They will be intent on privatizing all forms of government for the gain of their corporate masters. If they investigate anything, it will be in search of a wild goose/snipe expedition that has no lasting merit.

Bottom line: We have to vote for Democratic candidates because our lives really depend on it like never before.

[earth mom]

157. The Gulf Ecocide was a Massive Cover Up from Day 1!

:grr:

[flyarm]

159. You bet it was and is and everyone of us on the Gulf know it damn well! eom

[Panaconda]

165. Another chance

for those with head in sand to get an understanding as to how things work.

K&R