Lured Into a Trap, Then Tortured for Being Gay

[keepCAblue]

Source: NY Times


By MICHAEL WILSON and AL BAKER
Published: October 8, 2010

He was told there was a party at a brick house on Osborne Place, a quiet block set on a steep hill in the Bronx. He showed up last Sunday night as instructed, with plenty of cans of malt liquor. What he walked into was not a party at all, but a night of torture — he was sodomized, burned and whipped.

All punishment, the police said Friday, for being gay.

There were nine attackers, ranging from 16 to 23 years old and calling themselves the Latin King Goonies, the police said. Before setting upon their 30-year-old victim, they had snatched up two teenage boys whom they beat, the police said — until the boys — one of whom was sodomized with a plunger — admitted to having had sex with the man.

The attackers forced the man to strip to his underwear and tied him to a chair, the police said. One of the teenage victims was still there, and the “Goonies” ordered him to attack the man. The teenager hit him in the face and burned him with a cigarette on his nipple and penis as the others jeered and shouted gay slurs, the police said. Then the attackers whipped the man with a chain and sodomized him with a small baseball bat.

The beatings and robberies went on for hours. They were followed by a remarkably thorough attempt to sanitize the house — including pouring bleach down drains, the police said, as little by little word of the attacks trickled to the police. A crucial clue to the attackers was provided by someone who slipped a note to a police officer outside the crime scene, at 1910 Osborne Place in Morris Heights, near Bronx Community College.

Seven suspects were arrested on Thursday and Friday, and two were still being sought in a crime that the leader of the City Council called among the worst hate crimes she had ever heard of. “It makes you sick,” said the Council speaker, Christine C. Quinn, the city’s highest ranking openly gay official.



Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/09/nyregion/09bias.html?src=ISMR_AP_LO_MST_FB

---

I know this was from yesterday (10/8) but I haven't seen it anywhere yet on DU. If this is a dupe, my apologies. THIS NEEDS TO BE DISSEMINATED FAR AND WIDE.

[bluestateguy]

1. The boys under 18 should be tried as adults and sent to an adult prison

No excuses about some made up mential illness or how thier mommies didn't hold them enough when they were little.

No time for spellchekc,.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[awoke_in_2003]

48. yay, the prison rape joke series.

:sarcasm:

[Aristophrenia]

54. Im really sorry to have to write this -

but although there is still plenty of anti-gay sentiment in many western nations - nothing comes close to the US.

You need to understand that it is not the rest of the world, it is not other people - it is you. It is America -

hatred, racism, intolerance, corruption, greed, extreme militancy and unbridled violence are the true bedrock
of American national psyche. Militant religious fanaticism is actually the best definition possible for your
society and governance.

I understand that you may feel it is freedom, tolerance, democracy etc - but it is not. The very fact that you are
always having to fight for these things is in response to the fact that they are so hard to obtain in your society -
they are not the way it is - its the way you want it to be - in response to the deplorable true nature of your psyche.

Anti gay, anti balck, anti abortion, anti social, anti equality, anti egalitarianism, anti freedom, anti peace, anti
justice, - everything - its really,sad. Your nation is truly sad.

Most of European, Australia etc - does not preach freedom and justice, tolerance and secular progressive ideas - because we
do not need to - we already are. America preaches it constantly because it is so far away from even basic respectability - really sad for a
nation which was truly the world leader and progressive vanguard on these issues - from the UN, WW2, human rights - everything was lead by America,
now you do not simply trail - you are the opposite, the problem the instigator of terror, violence, religious extremism and intolerance the world over.

There is a lot more wrong with the very core psyche of America than i think most of you realize or are prepared to admit.

Lets be really clear here - this type of thing is iconic of the US - it is happening every where - the worst thing is that it is starting to spread
to countries like Australia - the worst part of Empire is the spreading of culture - American culture from hamburgers to religious fanaticism is spreading, anti- vaccination is now becoming part of Australia - you guys need to return to a more social idealistic platform - the stigmatization of progressive, idealism as nazi socialism which stands as an afront to freedom to pursue unfettered business is without any doubt the most dangerous position I have seen a country slide to since the onset of facism - and like America itself, represents the notion that it is exactly the opposite of what it claims to be.

You guys have to get, really, really serious about fixing your country - because the whole world is in danger from the consequences of it spiralling out of control - there is no real precedent for what America could do - but i see it as combination of Germany (all the indicators are there) and Pakistan as an extreme religious military state - a shocking combination - you need to act.

This incident is symptomatic of social decay - This type of gang thuggery was exactly what happened in germany.

There are plenty of great things about the US - as with Germany - but that is going to become utterly irrelevant in scheme of things.

Please - do something or the rest of us are going to be the victims - not just yourselves - you have a responsibility way beyond your own shores.

[Canuckistanian]

72. +1

As much as I hate to, I agree with you.

[BolivarianHero]

78. Not surprised about the anti-vax idiocy...

That sort of stupid is spreading like wildfire. I know people who were formerly apolitical who believe all that Alex Jones and anti-vax shit.

[queerart]

80. I Agree With You 100 %........

Nothing.... I repeat.... Nothing will happen to these people..... Nothing.....


... and Queers don't deserve any "special rights", or "ponies" because there are already laws in place..... right?


If this happened to a Soccer Mom..... "tortured for hours"...... Congress, and the Whitehouse would have something to say about it. Hell, the Whitehouse commented on someone being arrested going into their own home.... and they were later invited to the WH for a beer. Trust me, this fellows invite will be lost in the mail.....


Have at me haters.........

[muffin1]

137. +1,000,000

Agree 100%. Just like when AIDS was mostly killing gay folks when Raygun was in office - that fucker never mentioned it. If it had been killing 'important' people like white homemakers or someone like that, can you imagine the outpouring of sympathy and funding?

President Obama really needs to come out and address the recent spate of violence toward the GLBTQ community - and quickly. I will also add that his stance on same-sex marriage is certainly not helping the situation. It makes me so angry to know that a man as brilliant as he is holds such bigoted positions. Sky-daddies? Really President Obama? And pray tell, why does he so easily ignore other passages in the Bible?

And fuck the haters. It's not like gay people have longer lives than everyone else. Life is too fucking short to worry about how they will 'take things'. As long as this heterosexual woman is breathing air, she is going to help with the effort, haters be damned.

:pals:

[queerart]

152. You Are Much Appreciated!

:hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug:

[muffin1]

166. As are you, Sweetie.

And we WILL get there.:hug:

[The Doctor.]

150. Nothing?

They will likely spend at least a decade in jail. I know you see no justice anywhere, but look around.

[sabrina 1]

81. The U.S. needs its allies to speak to them like this.

The hypocrisy which is rampant also, when the U.S. criticizes countries like Venezuela for human rights abuses, when our own prison system is one of the worst in the world, maybe in the history of the world, for human rights violations.

If we have friends in the world, now is the time for them to speak out. France and Spain tried before the invasion of France, and like arrogant, spoiled brats we attacked them too.

We are trying. But with a corporate owned media aiding and abetting the worst elements in this society, it makes it very hard to accomplish anything. And with an 'opposition' party basically too scared to stand up for such things as Universal Healthcare, the bad guys have no real opposition anymore.

I agree with every word you said. Sadly.

[sabrina 1]

105. That should say 'before the invasion of Iraq'!

[kath]

90. Sadly, you're right. Great post.

[Patchuli]

97. I think Iran is much worse as are other places

towards gays. So I think while I agree with some of what you said, I disagree with much. It would be nice if you folks also occasionally noticed how many good Americans there are. You know, the ones who send tax dollars to help in other countries in distress? You write off the good people and good deeds with a shrug. We are a country in a struggle and the majority of us are tolerant, support civil rights and decency. You hear about the shitty people more because it's dirty laundry. Maybe you guys should figure out how to help instead of passing judgment...

[readmoreoften]

100. but, oddly, Iran is much better towards transsexuals.

With highly developed state-funded sex changes.

[Patchuli]

104. That's just strange...

if they based their intolerance on religion, I would think their religion would tell them that you are supposed to be whatever the Creator made you?

[Surya Gayatri]

107. Not sure I agree, Patchuli. Certainly, the treatment of gays

by the Iranian theocratic state is exponentially harsher than in the US. However, what I think Post 54 was pointing to is the senseless and perverse cruelty of the participants in this obscenity--and how it stands as a metaphor for the US culture in general. Just my take... SG

[Patchuli]

148. You are entitled to disagree as am I

Our culture is not unique in stupidity or cruelty and "in general" you dismiss an awful large amount of good people. That is what I objected to from the original post I responded to, not to mention it was sanctimonious as hell.

[Surya Gayatri]

108. Most perceptive post , Aristo...Couldn't agree more!

If only those millions of Americans (obviously far from all 300m, as evidenced by websites like DU) could see themselves as much of the world does:
as the self-styled God-blessed ones, false Xians spouting twisted religious dogma, brandishing their deadly weapons and attempting to threaten the rest of the planet into following their capitalist God.

How salutary it would be if somehow, millions of Americans could be projected outside of their Atlantic/Pacific/Gulf imposed cocoon and experience this world from another perspective. Alas, with the MSM in such parlous shape, this is a vain wish. SG

[24601]

115. Disagree about "nothing comes close to the US" when being gay

carries the death penalty in seven countries. Shall we invade them. Link attached

http://lesbianlife.about.com/od/lesbianactivism/f/DeathPenalty.htm

[Occulus]

122. The old "somebosy else has it worse argument" is a great way to dismiss the problem.

I should know... my mom uses it every single time I try to cry on her shoulder about the problems in my own life.

I generally take it as an "I don't give a shit about your problems because you don't have it so terribly bad". And it's a really shitty thing to say.

[No Elephants]

128. If so, no one is allowed to disagree with the major premise of Reply 54.

[24601]

158. They you can show your mom post #54 and ask her advice. The

premise was that the US was the worst - not that things weren't bad. My point is that a nation's death penalty for being gay is worse. If you don't agree, chime in and make your case that it's better to be put to death. I'm all for an open exchange of ideas and eagerly await your analysis.

[TBF]

117. Excellent post. nt

[bowens43]

125. You're absolutely right

and due to the spread of religious fundamentalism and nationalism in this country things are going to get much, much worse.

[HillbillyBob]

127. You cover the same points i covered in a term paper

in High School social studies....in 1977..things have only gotten worse.

[get the red out]

134. I completely agree with you!

And a lot of "AmuriKKKuns" would be damn proud of it, even if they don't publicly admit to it at their Tea Party rallies or Churches.

[MellowDem]

136. What an ignorant response...

that plays up to all the worst steryotypes that some perpetual greifers in here love to whip themselves with. No, America is not iconic of all that is wrong in the world, nor the sole exporter of it, with all the other nations hapless victims of the spread of hamburgers. A lot of the problem with your worldview is that it has a lot in common with the extreme right in wanting to create a single boogyman to blame everything on.

Europe is going far right on their own, thank you very much, and even the most "liberal" countries have large swaths of "teabagger" like populations, doing such wonderful things as banning evil minarets! But that's America's fault, right? Or maybe Europe is just fucked up and you don't want to admit it.

You don't know shit about America. This thing does not happen everywhere, and indeed, the perception towards homosexuality has markedly improved just in the last decade. We are reaching a tipping point, so it's not surprising you'll see people resisting the change, violently even. But it is happening.

I had no idea that Australia and Europe were "already there". So I guess all that aboriginal poverty doesn't exist? And Muslims are equals in society, right? No fear or ignorance there. YOUR perception of the world is what is dangerous. This ignorant idea that America is the source of all wrongs, that the rest of the world is all right, and anything that is wrong in the rest of the world is America's fault. That's some great "logic" there. It's also a great excuse to ignore and do nothing about all the shittiness that exists in your country.

Now why don't you plug your ears and cover your eyes with the American flag. It'll help you feel better about all the stupid shit your country does, but that's about it. Pretend your a victim and not a part of the problem, pretend that your helpless to the machinations of the all-powerful, Evil Amerikkka! You'll feel self-rightous and clean while rolling in that shit.

[cpwm17]

142. Thanks for the well thought out response to Aristophrenia # 54

Aristophrenia was way over the top in the ignorant, negative stereotypes of Americans. We are a diverse country of over 300 million, and growing, people. We are growing because the US allows in more immigrants than the rest of the world combined. In general, we tolerate people from all over the world.

We have our bad elements here that don't believe in our professed ideals. They often fall for the propaganda of the rich and powerful. But they aren't the whole country. Many countries have worse attitudes toward gays than the US. Also, anti-vaccination is not a big problem in the US as it is in Britain, to name another example in the ignorant post.

Unfortunately as American attitudes improve, Washington DC is getting worse. Corruption is completely taking over. They are destroying America and parts of the world. That's mostly a structural problem which allows a small number of greedy people to do most of the damage.

[Patchuli]

149. Well said!

:thumbsup:

[Marengo]

160. Another gem from this poster

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4570240

Post# 2: "all whities ever think about is themselves"

[Citizen Worker]

139. Two people, one a relative the other a friend, one female the other male, one native born the other

from another country separated in time by 11 years had nearly identical responses to my question, "why, after so many years do you want to leave the US? In '93 the foreign born female said, "because this place has become too mean and too vicious for me." Eleven years later as I was saying goodbye to the cousin who had moved overseas and as he shuffled his feet while saying, "I can't wait to get out of here." I asked why the feeling of urgency and he said, "this place has become too vicious for me."

In '93 I thought my friend might be overreacting to some health problems she had to deal with and she just wanted to be "back home." By '04 I was in full agreement with my cousin and contemplating a similar move when I reach retirement age.

The level of cruelty and viciousness that is running rampant through US society and culture is really quite shocking. Appeals to the most basel of human emotion have erupted in unprecedented levels of gratuitious violence. We are so fragmented as a society that we may have reached the terminal stage of illness.

To Aristophrenia. Don't feel sorry for writing what you did, you're merely telling the truth.

[Raster]

147. Thank you for posting. I agree with every word.

This country has not been right since JFK's assassination. Our national psyche has lurched toward sociopathic surrealism. My reference points of the depths of our national madness:
The Presidency of Ronald Raygun, the cheney*/bush* coup of 2000 and the benefits of TORTURE debated in the halls of Congress. I am afraid of and for the future.

[The Doctor.]

151. It's unique to the US, but since it happens elsewhere it's our fault...

Logic much?

[Confusious]

153. we have our problems we need to fix.

but don't blame us for problems that were already in your country.

need I mention the aborigines in your country? The shit was already there. mote in your eye and all that.

[donco6]

157. Got any good ideas? Cuz I'm fresh out.

Doesn't matter who we elect - they all eventually fall into the same lethargic do-nothing attitude.

[snooper2]

172. You are not as smart as you think you are..

FYI...

[McCamy Taylor]

112. Society creates this homophobic monster. We are ALL the attackers in this crime.

It's mighty easy to say "Send them to jail." But what does it change?

It is easy to say "purge a couple of people and then everything will be ok." But that is just a bandaid on a gaping wound.

How about we purge society of its hatred this time instead? Let law enforcement do its job and the rest of us, show some compassion to the victims before we start hating the guilty.

You will never ever cure hate with more hate.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

2. Sickening and disgusting.

This crap must stop.

NOW.

[UpInArms]

the hate and violence in our society is destroying our world

and the future of everyone.

:cry:

[RKP5637]

11. In my lifetime this has become a rather ugly country with hate and

violence.

[defendandprotect]

57. Remember that the right wing has been working non-stop to create this violent "America" ....

Patriarchy and violence are mirror images of one another --

Organized patriarchal religion has been teaching homophobia for thousands of years!

And quite out in the open, the right wing has been using political violence for 50+ years

to take control of America -- that's the only way they can do it!

Controlling MSM and putting violence on every channel -- introducing the Drug War to make

Americans frightened of one another - arming Americans to defend themselves against other

frightened Americans!

And what of DADT and these wars -- what are they teaching except that homophobia is

something natural for our government, Congress and our military? That TORTURE is becoming

mainstream thinking for many Americans?

[RKP5637]

60. Yep, a far different place than taught in school. I find it ever so disconcerting

so many Americans are sucked into the propaganda and then spread it around like manure. Frankly, I often wonder if this country is going to dig itself out and how... what always amazes me, especially anymore, is how many people believe and support the propaganda in their own worst interest.

[Surya Gayatri]

111. Well said, defend...

You were spot on here:
"And quite out in the open, the right wing has been using political violence for 50+ years

to take control of America -- that's the only way they can do it!"

There is nothing more pernicious and destructive than the extreme RW vision for the US and the world.

I truly believe that the survival of human civilization will be imperiled if they win. We should fight like our very existence depended on it--which it does. SG

[xchrom]

3. Recommend

[joeybee12]

4. Is every person on this planet actually human?

Are we devolving?

Sickening.

[RKP5637]

13. IMO, and I have no source to back it up, the sociopath count is going up. n/t

[onecent]

5. K&R n/t

[greiner3]

6. The suspects pictured in the NYT;

Look like classical followers of beck, rush, et. al.

Do I need a sarcasm icon?

[enki23]

19. what's your fucking point?

.

[Phil The Cat]

146. I think their point is

That a lot of people here look at the world's most troubling problems and instead of looking for real causes, they just point and say "Boogeyman Teabaggers!", smugly slap themselves on the back, and think to themselves, "That was easy!"

[LiberalFighter]

7. I hope when they are convicted and sentenced

that the judge tells the family of those convicted that if their poor parenting caused their children to commit the crime then they are just as guilty.

[mitchum]

61. They are not parents; they are rutting beasts bringing more beasts into the world

[Starry Messenger]

8. recommend.

[tblue37]

9. I was horrified to read in the article that the man's brother, who

was attacked and robbed in his apartment by some of the supects who had taken keys from the victim, didn't tell the police when he reported being robbed that his brother was being held and tortured by these men, even though he knew!

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/09/nyregion/09bias.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1&src=ISMR_AP_LO_MST_FB

While the man was held captive and attacked, five of the Latin King Goonies went to his house, which he shared with his 40-year-old brother. Using a key taken from the 30-year-old to get inside, they found his brother in bed. They pulled a blanket over his head and hit him, demanding money. When he refused, one placed a cellphone to the brother’s ear, and he heard the voice of his younger brother, who said he had been kidnapped and who pleaded, “Give them the money.”

The brother complied. The men took $1,000 in cash, two debit cards and a 52-inch television.

The brother managed to free himself about three hours later, and he called the police, leaving out the fact that his brother was being held <emphasis added>. By then it was Monday morning. Detectives went to the brothers’ home and, upon leaving, saw the 30-year-old, passed out on the landing from the alcohol he had consumed. But having no reason to believe he had been a victim of a crime, they did not question him.

[backscatter712]

20. Comes from the stigma of being gay.

If you had been in a gay sexual encounter, then something horrible happened, and you had to tell the cops about it. Tell a big bunch of intimidating authority figures with a history of homophobia about your sex life, and tell them that you had sex with a member of your own sex. I'd like to see you not hesitate...

Not gonna happen.

[tblue37]

135. But it was his brother who didn't tell that his brother was being held captive.

IOW, the victim's brother, who apparently is not gay, didn't tell the cops about his brother being held captive. I am wondering whether he is so upset about his brother's being gay that he didn't even think to have him rescued. That's what I found so horrifying--that the victim's brother wouldn't try to send help.

[Taverner]

12. Jesus FUCK that's sick

Shit like this makes me reconsider my stance on the death penalty, if not the human race itself...

[Occulus]

14. I'm just about to give up and pack it in

this world hates me and everyone like me

[RKP5637]

22. You know, when you sit down and think about it, the world hates itself... there's

enough hatred going around that everyone has a lot of hatred directed toward them, no matter who they are... so never give up...

[defendandprotect]

155. Here's John Lennon reminding us that there's a "they" involved in all of this ...

John Lennon said "They keep yoou doped with religion, sex and tv. And you think you are so clever and classless and free; but you're still fucking peasents as far as I can see"


THEY who teach hatred -- according to "god" --

THEY who demonize groups of citizens according to various myths of "inferiority" --

THEY who control our information and our "Orwellian" TV screens and programming --

[RKP5637]

161. I miss John Lennon, he influenced my thinking quite a bit and all for the good! n/t

[defendandprotect]

169. That sentiment is very strong with all of us right now -- you can feel it ...

my son was just visiting and we were suddenly talking about the birthday and

the music --

:)

[RKP5637]

170. The music in that period was incredible, one group after another, and it had

deep meanings, and much of it's applicable today. It's timeless music. It would be so wonderful if he were around today, to hear his perspective on things. We need that again for the new generations, to give inspiration and hope, so many need that now. He would know exactly what to say.

[defendandprotect]

171. What are you hearing in new music?

Know it's typical for next generation to hate what the new generation loves --

but -- while I know I'm kinda cut off from what's new -- the music industry seems

very stagnant --

They've worn out the old stuff -- Xmas trees are up in department stores now and I

dread the thought of those tapes starting up.

Also very tired of corporations buying popular songs and exploiting them for their

profit!


Did feel very lucky about the music of my time -- you could find IMO more understanding,

more emotion, more insight than was visible anywhere else.

Still love it all -- groups, voices, arrangements -- all wonderful! Magic!






:)

[RKP5637]

173. I find about three things prominent...

1. The music industry today is very stagnant and also some of the music is anxiety provoking with no redeeming value.

2. I loath the corporate sycophantic octopus buying songs and exploiting them for their monopolistic greedy profits!

3. The music of the 60's, for example, carried messages often in peaceful melodic ways that penetrated ones soul with the message. I find little of that today. Much of the music in that manner today is more of a droning on and IMO boring.

[defendandprotect]

176. Thank you -- exactly what I've found .... :(

[Bigmack]

25. OMG! TELL me

that your post doesn't mean what it SOUNDS like it means.... I'm a retired student and one of my favorite students, who came out to me in high school, committed suicide a few years ago, and his decision STILL haunts me. He was truly known and loved by MANY of us, and we let him know that we cared, but the weight of the wretched society around him was just too much in the end. But in some ways he punished his friends too with his suicide as we will all always wonder what more/else we should have said and done. Ms Bigmack

[Occulus]

38. No, I got past that part a long time ago

I sure as hell wouldn't mind just walking away from everything and starting over someplace else, though. Too bad that door is shut and locked....

[Divine Discontent]

68. what do you mean shut & locked? just wondering?

I am late 30's, and endure the knowledge of knowing how many people hate us. I get so tired of going to the store, mall, park, amusement places, etc and seeing one insult after another against GLBT people from ignorant folk.

I eventually found that I wanted some freedom. I have my spiritual freedom, for me, and know my Savior loves me. What I needed was to get away from it all, and several times in my 30's I have taken off with very little and traveled to places I've always wanted to go (San Fran, Denver, etc) and just did it. I don't have much, but I've done some of the things I've wanted. Please don't pack it in, and of course, I hope and wish you joy! I hope you can find some open-minded people that you can be around, and let's keep our prayers out for those who are beaten by such mindless hate...

Stay strong! Peace!

[Occulus]

114. Well, I have a pile of debt and I'm in a job I absolutely hate.

I used to like working for USPS, even as recently as a year ago, but the managers in my facility and to a greater extent my district as a whole have completely poisoned any pride I ever took in it. The long and short of it is that postal management, from the level of floor supervisor upward to the PMG, is a pack of fucking liars with a few scattered exceptions (who are purposely kept in the dark about things that would antagonize the employees, imagine that). They've also figured out that if they simply ignore the decisions made against them by union arbitrators and/or ignore precedents set by those arbitration decisions, they can break the grievance process completely and effectively bust the unions.

My debtload (I retained an attorney for a close friend who otherwise would be doing hard time and instead got probation) is the only thing keeping me there. If I could quit tomorrow debt-free, even lacking another job lined up, I would. The USPS is most certainly not the "good job" it used to be.

I'd rather be unemployed at this point. It's that bad.

[defendandprotect]

156. Too bad on all of that ... and especially sorry to hear that USPS conditions aren't improving

under Obama -- looks like you have entrenched right wingers in charge?

They've been trying to undo the PO, IMO, for decades -- trying to privatize it --

Wish Obama would begin to turn this around!!

We should be competing with all the privatized services!

Meanwhile, hope for all our sakes that everything takes an upturn SOON!!

:)

[Divine Discontent]

165. I quit from the USPS several years back. The mgmt drove me to the point of laughing at them.

I handed my bags full of mail to the supervisor and told her to deliver it. But, back to you, yes, I understand. And I commiserate with you... hang in there, bud!

[barbtries]

33. Occulus, we don't

these people and others like them are the aberrations. not you. no packing it in, no, no. :hug:

[nolabear]

34. No, the world doesn't. Most of us see you for who you are, a fellow human

who deserves all the joys and love and respect that you can possibly get in this life. We count, and we're trying to help make it better. I know it's an awful thing to suffer, but you are NOT alone, I promise.

[unapatriciated]

41. Don't you believe it.

Yes we have too many bigoted and hateful people who are also criminals. So please know that many of us do indeed care about our GLBT brothers, sisters, fathers, mothers, aunts , uncles and in my case my daughter and daughter-in-law. Please don't give up, I and many others will be there to shout down the bigots and criminals.

[defendandprotect]

44. No -- this hatred and intolerance is being taught ... and has been taught for

thousands of years!

The Vatican has a long list of enemies -- and nature, women and homosexuals are

certainly some of those on that list!

[awoke_in_2003]

49. please know...

that not everyone hates you :pals:

[No Elephants]

129. I don't hate you or everyone like you and I know many people who feel the same as I do..

Granted, that in no way makes up for anything what you go through on a daily basis. Still, I wanted to tell you, just in case it helps even a tiny bit.

[AngryOldDem]

138. For what it's worth....

I don't.

[Bitwit1234]

15. I hate to say this but being sent to prison they then might find

out how it feels to be tortured.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

16. Execute these sick fucks.

[civilisation]

45. ditto,.

[awoke_in_2003]

51. some people...

really make me question my being anti-death penalty.

[JonLP24]

178. Nobody does

make me. Giving them a DP is giving them a shorter sentence. After the DP they will be simply dead, no longer paying for their crimes. They should be spending every minute thinking about what they did and perhaps they will have an understanding. A DP just says it doesn't matter.

Besides all the racial disparities, the fact the innocent people have been on death row and executing are too much for me to ignore. I can't understand why people choose to ignore those things in support of the current system.

[pacalo]

17. This is horrible!

With all the bullying going on against GBLTers, something much stronger than the hate crimes law needs to be done. This is just insane! What has this country become?!

:grr:

[Smarmie Doofus]

18. That happened about 3 miles from here.

No they're not Beckies and they're not motivated by religion.

They're badly-educated dimwits that the school system here should have trained better... but refuses to do so. Effectively there is NO TRAINING IN PS HERE related to homosexuality. That's a conspiracy of silence.

See Bloomberg, M. and Klein .J.

The upshot is primitive ideas abound, proliferate and dominate within the youth street culture.

[mitchum]

23. It is not the fault of the public school that these monsters did this

Better to look at their culture. And parents...excuse me...I should have said "dams" and "sires"

[Smarmie Doofus]

27. I don't get ya. How are you going to change...

... "their culture" except thru the school system?

That's what the school system is FOR.

Isn't it?!

:think:

[mitchum]

30. The school system only has them for 35 hours a week; that leaves 133 hours a week...

for other influences.
People do bad things because they enjoy doing bad things.
People breed indiscriminately with little regard to responsibility
because they are often little more than animals.

[TheMadMonk]

36. A common bloody argument from people who don't want anyone teaching THEIR...

...kid about teh gay.

For a good many kids, particularly those in the lowest socioeconomic strata, their teachers get a hell of a lot more influence time than their parents.

For the bits between teacher and home, it's mostly other kids.

So exactly where the fuck ARE kids supposed to actually learn that poofs aren't priaptic bum bandits just waiting for you to drop something in front of them.

[mitchum]

52. Why don't you consult the NY state public school system and see just how many...

hours are mandated for the teaching of homophobia and sociopathic violence?
Then maybe you would like to compare the number of hours that are mandated for the teaching of diversity and sensitivity (for both educators and students)

[TheMadMonk]

66. If you have a point to make with numbers, make them yourself. Don't tell me ...

..."They're out there. Now go find them."

Personally I'd argue for at least one full semester's of diversity training for teaching students. I can also see a bunch of religious nutcases screaming blue murder if this was made mandatory.

For kids it shouldn't be about allocated hours. It should be continuous, and except in "punitive mode", invisible.

I reitterate. Your tired old argument is the same one used against all forms of sex education in schools, against education on virtually any controversial subject.

People talk of parental rights to educate their children as they see fit. Excuse me, what fucking rights? It's their bloody responsibility to raise their child to be a fit member of society. Since far too many people lack the self honesty and confidence to acknowledge that theirs is only one of many points of view and expose their children to those other POVs, society as a whole must intervene to ensure that exposure.

Get over it, it is a damned rare kid that makes it to 6th grade without a reasonably comprehensive knowledge of the basic mechanics of sex, including (snigger) pee-pee in poopy sex. Somewhere in the vicinity of (and preferably prior to) puberty, they NEED to know about genital hygiene and the internal mechanics of procreation.

The timing for learning of practical intricacies and techniques in my day was usually down to how good an elder relative was at hiding things and a kid's ability to ferret things out. Today it's something like 15 seconds after they first get access to an unmonitored internet connection.

For most of history kids grew up seeing their little brothers and sisters going in and nine months or so later their coming out, just as they saw it with puppies, piglets, calves and lambs. All over the world pre-pubescent kids run naked all the time, except where other eyes intrude themselves, decide to be offended and introduce their own special brand of shame, almost always with sanctions or withheld services to encourage compliance.

[mitchum]

83. You need to reign in your hysteria, Monk; I'm in favor of sex education...

in the public schools. Where in the hell do you get off claiming that I am against that?
And if these little shits are indeed the products of the NY public school system, diversity training was made available to them.
What is your fucking problem?
However, in all of your frothing and spitting, you did manage to make one good point; too many parents are fucking worthless.
By the way, how do you know these little sociopaths are indeed products of the public school system? Oh, that's right; you don't.
They may have gone to parochial school. Or they may have not seen the inside of a school since the age of 13 or 14.
I repeat; what is your fucking problem?
This teacher has a an assignment for you...calm your ass down.

[TheMadMonk]

131. My most humble appologies if I read you wrong. However, what you appeared...

...to be saying was that it (let it represent any controversial subjetc) was not the province of schools to teach. (Which IS the sneaky way of saying it's the parent's and no one elses.)

Which is why I went on to say that diversity training (and successful completion, even if that means they MUST publically repudiate their religion (AND I do not give an orbital (let alone flying) fuck for 1A here) should be a mandatory part of ANY public school teacher's training curiculum.

I am fully aware that these little fucks are products of BOTH the PSS and good old AMERICAN society, because for all of Both's constitutionally mandated nonsectarianism, they still manage to fucking bend over backwards to accomodate the worst of the worst of "Christians" by refusing to ever confront them head on, no matter how hateful the bile spilt.

I won't claim my society (Australia) is much better, except we managed to make most of our more recent mistakes out of misguided paternalism. Four centuries later, after founding your nation on the precept of escaping persecution and exploitation, you (as a nation) are still doing your gods bedamned best to persecute the "different" and exploit the defenceless.

Again I'm sorry if I attacked you unjustly, but I am getting just a little sick of people in these forums refusing to entertain solutions demonstrated successful elsewhere, because to do so, would mean partially relinquishing/qualifying rights/freedoms that have close to zero MEANING, except under a governing regime where they have approximately the same VALUE.

Sorry (and I really am) to say this, but the founders of your nation fled exploitation and persecution, then you spent close to two centuries doing just that to each other and the peoples in your way, wrote a constution forbidding such behaviour then for another century behaved as if the protections thus granted applied only for Anglo Saxon males with money and/or influence, then after four years of conflict (ostensibly over the ultimate exploitaition of others) you kept on eploiting the defenceless and started in on the rest of the world.

Please don't take this as a personal attack it isn't, it's an attack on what really does appear to the rest of the world to be your national philosophy (and most reviled export) of screw or be screwed.

Sad as it might be, Winston Churchill was not far wrong when he said: "Americans can always be counted on to do the right thing...after they have exhausted all other possibilities."

[gtar100]

140. Good exchange.

Points taken.

[mitchum]

175. Monk, I really appreciate that...

I am a bit touchy about
both
being considered a prude (far from it, I'm a proud hedonist)
and allegations of failure upon the part of public educators

peace,
mitchum

[Smarmie Doofus]

82. NOT teaching the science pertaining to homosexuality...

... is tantamount to lying about it and is tantamount to defaming homosexual people.

There are zero hours ( that I know of anyway, and I teach in the NYC system) mandated for this purpose.


The system doesn't have to actively teach HOMOPHOBIA for disdain toward homosexuals to be effectively communicated. It can and does do this by maintaining silence on the subject.

[mitchum]

84. If you do indeed teach within the NYC school system, why aren't you advocating for change...

within the system for which you allegedly work? Are you also a Cowardly Doofus?
Oddly enough, in the district in which I teach, students receive diversity education and the science pertaining to homosexuality. In the deep south. Imagine that.
Sounds like you have some work to do...if that work does exist.

[Smarmie Doofus]

87. Link to my DU journal. ( You should apologize.)

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Smarmie%20Doofus

[mitchum]

89. Nice bulletin board

[defendandprotect]

46. This culture of homophobia comes from organized patriarchal religion ... how could anyone miss that?

Just as hatred for Jews and Semites was preached for 1,600 years by the Vatican --

for thousands of years they have been preaching the "abomination" of homosexuals!!

Unless things have greatly changed, this crap is still being preached from the pulpits

every Sunday!

You want to blame the parents? Who taught the parents?

You have to be TAUGHT to hate and fear -- you have to be carefully taught!


And, what's Obama and the MIC and Congress teaching right now about homosexuals in not

immediately removing DADT?

These are messages which do reach even 18 year olds -- and obviously these particular

teenagers had no one to set them straight!

Notice also that their mission was based on kidnapping, threats, violence, intimidation --

and TORTURE seemingly being a lesser evil in their minds than homsexuality!!

That's how severely their mental health has been damaged by homophobia!!

[NorthCarolina]

47. Excellent point!

"Notice also that their mission was based on kidnapping, threats, violence, intimidation --
and TORTURE seemingly being a lesser evil in their minds than homosexuality!!"

Well stated.

[keepCAblue]

56. +1 trillion n/t

[mitchum]

88. I would imagine that more than one of these cretins is familiar with the Catholic church...

just a wild guess...

[kath]

94. yeppers -- I'll second you in that wild guess...

[jhrobbins]

98. I don't think the answer is that black and white-that pat.

I do think that many organized denominations lean towrd this bigotry and some are quite overt in their denunciation of us. However, most often, I believe that these extreme religious sects - Westboro, et al, hide their bigotry behind their myopic interpretation of their various books and oral histories. I think if you take the cloak of religion away, nothing would change except for their rationalizations. As long as humans operate under the umbrella of 'human nature', it's going to happen and blaming religion is a Potemkin village.

[defendandprotect]

154. Nonsense ... Vatican didn't spend 1,600 years debasing Jews ....

and Southern elites didn't invent tales of African "inferiority" --

and the "Hammer of Witches" neither was created just to pass the time --

Patriarchy -- its underpinning is organized patriarchal religion -- has worked constantly

against its enemies -- i.e., nature, women, Jews, Native Americans, pagans, homosexuals --

and still does!

The Vatican even today still does not acknowledge the full personhood of females as it

acknowledges the full personhood of males.

And, further it continues to work to influence our government to NOT support reproductive

freedom.

Like today's right wing, they don't waste their time inventing and spewing -- and

"catapulting" -- the propaganda because it doesn't work!!

No one is born HATING anyone else -- you have to be taught -- you have to be carefully taught!

[jhrobbins]

177. It isn't nonsense. My premise was that if you remove religion

from the equation, ALL of those things would have still happened and would continue to happen as long as human beings were part of the equation

[defendandprotect]

180. Your premise is that, after millennia of male-supremacist religion teaching homophobia ....

if we removed religion now ... the homophobia would still be there!!

Duh???

What you're buying into is that homophobia is somehow natural among humans --

it is not -- any more than hatred and violence are natural among humans --

each of us has to be TAUGHT these things -- "carefully taught" -- !!!


Organized patriarchal religion is the teacher of homophobia -- even still today.

You can still hear from that homosexuals are an "abomination" from the pulpits

of Roman Catholic churches! Spreading hatred and intolerance for homosexuals as

the RCC does, increases the risk of violence against homosexuals!



.

[Bluenorthwest]

28. Takes a village, it has been said, to make the golem walk

[handmade34]

53. tragic

and you are correct about the schools but it goes even deeper and has roots in inequality and poverty... . I'll be headed there in a week or so to work (just checked my maps and it looks like I will be in the neighborhood where it happened)... I was already dreading the Bronx...

[Bluenorthwest]

21. Every last person who has uttered discriminatory rhetoric

in the name of their cursed deity or their rotten 'traditional culture' is as guilty as these monsters they made.

[AllyCat]

24. The more we stand quiet when fearful people rage, the more this crap happens

We have to speak out. I don't care if I'm at work, at a school function with the kids, or whatever...when people start spouting this kind of garbage, I call them on it in front of whoever happens to be there. Where possible, I try to educate and show there is no reason to be afraid, but when people are just jerks, I embarrass them in front of others for being fear mongers.

[msongs]

26. isnt religion wonderful? nt

[Dash87]

29. Gays are being oppressed like never before. I feel like it's getting worse.

When is this sickening crap going to end? What is wrong with these people? I can't even step on an ant without feeling guilty for the whole day. I don't understand what is wrong with these people. It's like they don't have a conscience or something. :(

♥

[TheMadMonk]

40. A) Patently WRONG. B) Blame the media (and thank them)

Take some heart from the fact that this sort of obscenity is now actually newsworthy. And that the crime and not the victim's lifestyle is the obscenity in most eyes. Not that long ago, this would have been treated ONLY as a kidnapping attached to the brother's robbery and the two other victims would have been charged as co-conspirators and then (if lucky) allowed to skate with a warning or non-custodial sentence.

Opponents are desperate and loud, because they know they're a dying breed.

[BolivarianHero]

79. Obama dogwhistled to the bigots on Inauguration Day

Remember Rick Warren?

That was awfully Bush-league as leadership goes. I dare even say Reaganesque. But that's pushing it, as, to his credit, unlike Reagan he's not let Rapturists run the EPA.

[kath]

95. yep -- thanks so much for that, Mr. President.

[readmoreoften]

101. I guess the beaten & tortured folks didn't get their pony...

But, really, what do gay people matter? We're just a fringe minority to be offered up to the electoral gods every four years.

[Bluenorthwest]

130. I remember Donnie McClurkin

Donnie's hate church is just a short drive from the Brox, and it is just one of several hate congregations in the NYC area. Donnie is the so called 'minister' who calls us 'vampires' and child killers and goes on TV to declare 'war agaist gays'. He was Barack Obama's hand picked surrogate in his Primary campaign in select Southern States. Although Donnie is a NYer. They brought him down there to prove Obama's 'bona fides' with the hate churches.

[TexasObserver]

31. recommend

[AlinPA]

32. That is conservative / republican / religious fundamentalist behavior.

[DissedByBush]

35. In a different context

This is a night of fun BSDM sex, with the attackers also being gay.

But since it's non-consensual, send 'em up the river.

Kidnapping, assault, rape, torture, plus a hate crime sentence modifier, don't let them see daylight for decades.

[Odin2005]

37. Kill these piles of scum, they are beyond redemption.

[jwirr]

39. F--king little cowards. They will be having a good time in prison.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

42. animals are better behaved

[defendandprotect]

43. Foolish, ignorant boys -- minds filled with hatred and sexual violence ... !!

HOWEVER, these teenagers didn't dream up "fear of homosexuals" on their own --

this is something that has been TAUGHT to them -- and patriarchy and organized

religion have to be held responsible, as well, for this atrocity.

How many "Christians" still sit in their church pews every Sunday listening to

a priest preaching hatred and intolerance for homosexuals?

Those Sunday sermons help create this kind of violent --

Just as 1,500 years of the Vatican's spreading anti-Hebrew and anti-Semitic hated

and intolerance for Jews helped pave the way for the Jewish Holocaust in Germany.


These things don't happen by accident -- dropped upon us out of thin air!!!

[VPStoltz]

50. I wouldn't suspect these morons can read...

They would the TV on 24/7 and don't think for a second all the hate filled crap the right has been putting on the airwaves this season didn't play some part in this.
The crap the Reps put out is like propaganda - the president is black! Hate him! He supports gay rights! Hate him AND them, etc.

[mitchum]

59. I'm sure that some posters above will be more than happy to blame that illiteracy on the schools

[BreweryYardRat]

55. I keep saying it -- enforce the death penalty for hate crimes.

You can't reason with this sort of scum. You can't re-educate or redeem them. You can only dispose of them like the mad dogs they are.

[Capitalocracy]

58. OK, I'm going to do something I shouldn't and say some ugly things here

but that I feel need to be said. I'm just honest like that. This is, of course, terrible, and by saying these things I mean no offense nor do I mean to belittle the suffering caused by these monsters. But here it is.

So I'm assuming these people will not be going to jail, will not be suffering any consequences, etc., because after all, all they did was torture, and that's not actually illegal or bad anymore from what I've come to understand.

And why is it that people who hate gay people so much always want to sexually abuse them? Twisted closet-case much?

[kath]

96. yeah, you have a point, we're just fine with torture these days. This administration is as cool

with it as the previous one. :banghead: :banghead: What the hell has happened to this country?

[No Elephants]

132. Since when? When was this a humane land?

[orbitalman]

62. This is being taught also... by the CHURCH...

particularly the evangelical fundamentalists. I say that because I was raised in that environment. I have a brother I cannot speak to because his hate and fear of LGBT completely colors our relationship. The mental concrete is so sad. You can't talk and make any sense TO THEM.

Some of them go off the deep end.

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[keepCAblue]

64. ...

[keepCAblue]

67. I think it's safe to say FOX, Beck & the GOP have directly...

...contributed to creating a climate in this country that is hostile to gay people. Such a climate fosters the kind of hate crimes these nine cretins committed.

So, what exactly IS it you are trying to say?

And by the way, welcome to DU and enjoy your stay. Short though it will be.

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[krabigirl]

93. Why couldn't they be into Beck? Does Beck only have white viewers?

[readmoreoften]

102. Uh.... yes. He's the leader of the white gang.

The Latin Kings aren't getting their ideas from Glenn Beck. Gangs are in many ways proto-fascist organizations based on race. The white gangs are just the most dangerous because they're most likely to be funded by the Koch brothers.

[sabrina 1]

106. Who said they 'can never be racist'? There are plenty of minorities

who are racist and plenty of Republicans who hate gays, who turn out to be gay themselves. It's a complex world, I've been here a long time and have never once seen anyone say that a Black or Gay person is not capable of bigotry.

Beck and Palin HAVE caused violence against others. I guess you missed the interview with the Highway Gunman, caught by police with whom he had a gun battle, on his way to commit mass murder of members of the ACLU and a 'liberal charity' supported by Kerry's wife? He listens to Beck and was 'blown away by him' he says. He claims Beck was saying the things he wanted to hear.

I can give you plenty of examples of violence where the perps stated they were driven by the Right Wing Noise Machine to try to start a war on Liberals. Church killings, a cop killer etc.

You just made a false statement about DUers. When Beck is to blame, he gets the blame. The reason he didn't get the blame here was there is no EVIDENCE yet, that these perps listen to him. If some surfaces, then he will be blamed for influencing them.

And I would not be a bit surprised if they DO listen to Beck. We'll wait and see. However, it's also likely since they are a bunch of cowards more than 9 of them against 1, they are probably scared of their own feelings more than anything.

What a weird thing to say though, as if no Blacks ever listened to Glenn Beck or were ever Rightwingers. Your own prejudices are showing.

[ulaes]

77. Yep

The same way these pictures were inconvenient.

[lightningandsnow]

65. What the hell?

:cry:

[Divine Discontent]

70. beasts...

[TwentyFive]

71. I hate to inject politics into this...but

As much as I despise these punks and think they should never see freedom again...I can't help but wonder about the Republican Hate Machine, and how it influences a society to produce such vile scumbags.

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[readmoreoften]

103. It says they're in the Latin Kings. Hardly teabagger territory.

The world is a little more complex than that.

[ruggerson]

86. It's the churches. And both parties kowtow to the churches.

[Phil The Cat]

144. Some of the most liberal people I've known

Are raging homophobes! I've also known raging racists who proudly voted D!

While the RW is more well known for homophobia and racism, don't think it is a "them only" thing! That's naive!

As for this particular gang, it is about toughness, not Glenn Beck! I might be wrong - he has quite a following of a-holes - but I don't see gangs of young urban men (and women) wearing "Palin '12" buttons!

[hendo]

74. String 'em up by thier balls!

What a bunch of sick F*cks!

[Name removed]

75. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[judesedit]

76. The "Dumbing Down of America" was and still is making the children of America more ignorant

America used to be at the top when it came to education. It is now near the bottom. This is due to the manipulating of material taught, brainwashing, discouraging dialog and debate, complacency among Americans, probably due to the chemicals the big money companies put in our food (every food company has a chemical/drug lab) and subliminal messages coming from our televisions every day, day in and day out. The Dumbing Down of America is very real. You can research it for yourself. Each generation gets closer to what was and is intended with this indoctrination. The 2% wealthiest want the other 98% of us as stupid, complying, robotic slaves they can use for whatever purpose suits them at the time. Of course that includes helping to keep them wealthy. Right now this little scheme of theirs is being threatened and the money is coming in hand over fist to keep it from being exposed and ended. Just look at the Republican party as they will lie, cheat and steal from their mothers to maintain their lifestyles while the rest of us starve. You had better start noticing how illiterate, violent, and insensitive many of America's children are turning out to be. This is your future. Many high school graduates cannot even spell the simplest of words, and can barely write a sentence. How this fact has remained a secret for all of these years confounds me. Democrats, Progressives and Liberals had better vote or watch this country go down the tubes faster than you can imagine in your wildest nightmares. Any Independent with any intelligence and no fear of the facts had better reconsider if they think a vote for the Republicans will do anything but hurt this country. Do your own research. You will see that this is no bullshit.

[chervilant]

85. Stop the Insanity!

We humans are manifesting a level of mental dis-ease that is both frightening and corrosive. Far too many of us are in react mode, driven by inchoate fears and resentments. Far too many of us are willing to pollute our spirits with negativity, eagerly engaging in name-calling and other forms of vilification. Far too many of us are willing to glorify violence or resort to violence, often just for entertainment or personal gratification!

We seldom acknowledge the import of overpopulation, but Calhoun's research with rats has proven that when a critical level of overpopulation occurs, the outcome isn't pretty. With rats, abnormal sexual behavior, hyperaggression, eating their young, and increased mortality are a few of the problems that occurred. With humans, well...perhaps, it's past time we acknowledge that our species has passed a critical tipping point.

Furthermore, our nation has routinely underfunded and disrespected public education, a reality that is manifestly apparent when one considers that fully 40% of our adult population is functionally illiterate. Over the past four decades, this nation's teachers have struggled to educate our children in the face of underfunding, bad administrators, overcrowded classrooms, and disintegrating school buildings (and this list could go on and on--bad food, no physical education, no art, no music, etc--ad nauseum). The current relentless assault on education is yet another effort by the Corporate Megalomaniacs to subjugate and control the hoi polloi. "Race to the Top," my ass!

WHEN are we going to get mad enough to say enough already?!

WHEN are we going to stand up to the hedonists who've usurped our nation and rendered it a Corporatocracy?!?

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over, expecting different results...

We can no longer afford to procrastinate. We can no longer afford to sit around on our fat asses and 'blog' our outrage. We ARE at a critical tipping point, and if we continue to respond in the same manner as we've BEEN responding over the past decade, we richly deserve the inevitable outcome.

[krabigirl]

91. I have no words :( :(

[Diclotican]

92. keepCAblue

keepCAblue

I do not really have a word for what I should say here. How sad, how painfull, how utterly wrong.. :shrug: :cry:

Diclotican

[Patchuli]

99. I will never understand how people

can treat their fellow man this way. Sad and sick. I hope these bastards are treated as adults for their crimes.

[Kris D]

109. Gay Hate Crimes = Self Hating Homosexuals

Can we just make it part of the public psyche that when we see
or hear about a gay hate crime or gay bashing, that it's
almost always repressed self-hating closeted gay men
propagating it!? Make it obvious that those throwing the
stones are gay. The men shoving baseball bats up other men's
asses are gay. The men torturing, whipping, name-calling,
beating up gay men - are gay. Straight men wouldn't be so
intimidated as to act out with such vehemence and violence.
They need to admit it, accept that it's OK, and stop trying to
cover it up by aggression towards those who are like them. 
Repression leads to deviance. 

Don't Ask Don't Tell has to go, as it gives these sick men
some sort of machismo to hide behind, and kids and teenagers
follow in suit. I'm confused about my sexual identity. I'm
afraid of being found out, and therefore, I'm going to attack
gays to prove how not gay I am. Gay is OK. How sad is it that
this is what our culture makes of its homosexuals, if they're
not strong enough to stand up for themselves. We are the
Taliban when it comes to homosexuality in America. 

We need to make the kids understand this. 

[muffin1]

118. BS

I long for the day when people realize that while it is true that self-hating gay folks sometimes perpetuate discrimination and hate against their fellow GLBTQers, the vast majority of the hate is coming from HETEROSEXUAL religious nutbags and rednecks. How convenient to blame everything like this on gay people. As if 'straight' people would NEVER do something so heinous. It's just those nasty queers...

Oh, and by the way, as any rape victim will tell you, rape is an act of violence and hate, not sex.

[theHandpuppet]

123. +1000

Thanks.

[keepCAblue]

141. Amen and thank you. Yeah, it's like saying rapists who rape women...

...are really just self-loathing closeted men who secretly identify as women.

Such BS that hate crimes against gays are, by majority, committed by self-loathing closeted gays. And what of the hate crimes committed against lesbians (and there have been many, and many of which include some form of sexual assault) -- nearly 100% of those hate crimes were likewise committed by heterosexual men. Were these men self-loathing, closeted men who longed to be lesbians? Uh-uh. The whole "self-hating, closeted gay" theory falls apart if one merely considers that hate crimes are committed against lesbians as well. No, sorry. These crimes by and large are the work of fucked up hetero men who have been emboldened by a society that sanctions, even encourages, bigotry and violence against GLBTQQ people.

What makes this crime even more disturbing is that the 30 y.o. victim was so effeminate, harmless and sweet, that people who knew him referred to him as "she" and talked of how "she" was always the first to help a person in need--buying food for the hungry, giving money to those who were destitute ...

I just can't imagine the terror, the horror, this poor soul went through during those long, long hours of torture and abuse.

[Kris D]

163. Gay Hate Crimes = Self Hating Homosexuals = Poor Subject Title

OK, well, that didn't come out right. That's what I get for posting at 1:30 am on sleep meds.

What I should have said is that people tend to attack what they're threatened by and that, many (I shouldn't have said most) men who commit crimes against homosexuals - especially the crimes in the original post, and who speak out the loudest against homosexuality, are in fact, afraid of their own homosexual tendencies.

'Religious' men and staunch right wing Republicans who rant about the evils of homosexuality - and work actively to impede gay rights, men in prison who rape other men - but insist they're not gay... You can't deny this faction, or that it's caused by our society condoning the slander of homosexuals and denying rights to homosexuals, as if they aren't really 'people.' This leads to repression, which leads to ... nothing good.

That is not to say that straight men don't also beat up and abuse homosexuals - and women - and blacks - and hell, I used to be attacked for being a hippie, for that matter - of course they do, but they tend to attack what they're threatened by, or if they're more cowardly, anything weaker than they are. Kick the dog. Beat the kids.

And yes, there are more stupid violent heterosexuals who are subconsciously threatened by anything with a brain than you can throw a stick at, but the argument that because straight men beat up and rape women and lesbians - and each other, what I said is untrue, doesn't make sense either. One doesn't negate the other.

I live in West Hollywood and am a staunch defender of gay rights. People very close to me have suffered and died because of their sexuality. I buried one last month. Maybe I'm not expressing myself clearly and my subject line was a poor one. I apologize if my post gave the impression that I felt that homosexuals bring this on themselves or are inherently bad in some way. That was not my intention at all.

[muffin1]

167. I am so sorry for your loss.

And trust me, I know how easy it is to express oneself poorly while under the influence. I've done it more than once here. :hi:

[Smarmie Doofus]

168. Absolved. Forgive thyself. Go forth and sin no more. nt

[Bluenorthwest]

133. The heterosexual community needs to recognize the rot it has

become, it needs to stop with the hate and division, the greed and the bigoted, discriminatory laws that community forces onto others in the name of their blood dripping idol.
This is a bunch of straight monsters. Deal with it.

[Kris D]

110. Gay Hate Crimes = Self Hating Homosexuals

Can we just make it part of the public psyche that when we see
or hear about a gay hate crime or gay bashing, that it's
almost always repressed self-hating closeted gay men
propagating it!? Make it obvious that those throwing the
stones are gay. The men shoving baseball bats up other men's
asses are gay. The men torturing, whipping, name-calling,
beating up gay men - are gay. Straight men wouldn't be so
intimidated as to act out with such vehemence and violence.
They need to admit it, accept that it's OK, and stop trying to
cover it up by aggression towards those who are like them. 
Repression leads to deviance. 

Don't Ask Don't Tell has to go, as it gives these sick men
some sort of machismo to hide behind, and kids and teenagers
follow in suit. I'm confused about my sexual identity. I'm
afraid of being found out, and therefore, I'm going to attack
gays to prove how not gay I am. Gay is OK. How sad is it that
this is what our culture makes of its homosexuals, if they're
not strong enough to stand up for themselves. We are the
Taliban when it comes to homosexuality in America. 

We need to make the kids understand this. 

[theHandpuppet]

116. What planet do you live on?

You completely exonerate this heterosexist society and all heterosexual men by saying that only closeted gays commit hate-on-gay crimes? Well isn't that just dandy.

[donco6]

159. Yeah, because only a fag like me could be this evil, right?

:eyes:

[Kris D]

164. Pls see my reply below

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4570270&mesg_id=4571167

[democrank]

113. Sickening

[mdmc]

119. LK rule a good part of Newburgh NY

if the goonies are not part of the LK gang, they best watch their back..
There is a good chance these thugs will get a taste of street life if they used the LK name without being real members.

If these thugs were LK gang members, then the violence is really par for the course..

[myrna minx]

120. K&R n/t

:-(

[HillbillyBob]

121. These thugs need to be taught a lesson.

from now on I don't leave home without protection.
My partner and i went to a bluegrass fest yesterday and had a great time.
One of my school friends is Missy Raines (and the New Hip) A bluegrass/blues/jazz fusion group.

On the way home through Burlington NC I saw a bunch of pickup trucks in a vacant lot. They were folding up an odd combo flag with the confederat and nazi symbols on it. When they pulled out they were in front and behind us.
What a let down on a happy day. We were in our little car while 3 4x4 monster ttired trucks in front and 4 more behind. Partner stayed calm and we traveled until they pulled off on a side road( there are several ways to get home from there and we had not gotten to the turn offs for any of them yet).
I have made up my mind to put the auto matic .380 in the car.

I have been beaten up badly by these kind of thugs before the next one that tries it will get lead poisoning. I have had to run off this kind with a shotgun many years ago. I had hopes that this shit would be getting less but thanks to the fucking pukes who have screwed this country up so badly that the nazis and kkklanners think that all brown or gay or whatever kind of person they see as other is the problem..the nazifascistkkkreestiankorporate shit is the problem and we need to get rid of them they are poison to our society.

[pgodbold]

124. I'm sure Captain Bipartisan had plenty to say about this. I just didn’t see it. My fault I’m sure.

[Enthusiast]

126. Nazi-like cruelty

is becoming commonplace.

[Jefferson23]

143. Words just fail. I hope the victims receive all the help they need to deal

with the horrific crimes committed against them.

[dharmamarx]

145. It's poverty, not the tea party that causes this.

Street gangs have lots of rules about obtaining "respect" and some of those rules are quite homophobic: you have to pledge to not have gay sex in order to be admitted. The kids who join these gangs don't have easy access to most of the things that allow people in our society to feel good about themselves: wealth, influence, education, whiteness.... But they do have their masculinity (and what they assume to be related to it, their heterosexuality). The gay man represented both a threat to their masculinity (a reminder of the possibility of violating that code of heterosexuality) and a possibility for publicly displaying their adherence to that code of masculinity.

[Exilednight]

162. This is one of the saddest things I've read in a long time ...........

Parts of the story remind of Abu Ghraib prison tortures. I can't help but wonder if these guys saw the stories about the prison and thought that if our government did it, why can't they?

[Love Bug]

174. This is monstrous...

Words fail.

[truthisfreedom]

179. Monstrous. I don't even want to wonder what their prison time will be like.

I'm sure they'll learn things they never wanted to know.

And experience unimaginable horrors.