Judge Asks Doctor if Fetus Can Feel Pain

[Pale Blue Dot]

http://www.comcast.net/News/DOMESTIC//XML/1110_AP_Online_Regional___National__US_/cb15bc17-e9e1-4bd8-9b05-66e492fa2cc0.html

NEW YORK - A doctor who performs abortions found himself quizzed by a federal judge about whether a fetus feels pain during a controversial abortion procedure and if the physician worries about that possibility.

The inquiry, at times graphic, came in U.S. District Court on Wednesday after lawyers on both sides had finished questioning Dr. Timothy Johnson, a plaintiff in one of three lawsuits brought to try to stop enforcement of the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act.

"Does the fetus feel pain?" Judge Richard C. Casey asked Johnson, saying he had been told that studies of a type of abortion usually performed in the second trimester had concluded they do.

Johnson said he did not know, adding he knew of no scientific research on the subject.

[eyesroll]

1. It is a legitimate question

I'm not sure how you'd test that, though.

However, I wonder about the judge -- "I heard from somewhere that they might" -- is that standard judicial questioning, or is he revealing his own feelings on the subject? (I don't know -- is a judge allowed to question based on heresay?)

[sniffa]

2. obviousLy

they conduct interviews with baby angeLs.

[phantom power]

4. this is getting at the root

This is the root of the controversy. When does a developing fetus acquire "moral" status? I would say it is when it becomes capable of awareness, and therefore suffering.

However, if you believe that there is a supernatural soul, which inhabits the embryo from conception, then the answer is from conception, and all abortion is wrong.

We don't yet possess the tools to really figure this out, and until that day, the various factions are almost certainly going to keep talking past each other.

[sinkingfeeling]

10. This is just a question...if a soul inhabits an embryo at

conception (life begins), then what can be said about the number of zygotes or blastocysts (fertilized eggs in their earliest stages) that fail to implant uterine wall? I think I read that only about 4 in 10 fertilized eggs result in implantation.

[demdave]

15. It is not a question of "soul". What if you don't believe in "souls"?

Can you then not have an opinion on abortion? The issue of pain come into play when considering fetal operations from a humanitarian point of view. We can amputate an adult limb without anesthesia and the patient will live but we don't.

[Oggy]

12. Not sure about awareness

If you mean Self-Awareness then, my daughter who is 5 months old, and she has only really shown awareness from about 3 months. Before that she was an eating sleeping pooing crying machine. We were told at our anti-natal clinic that in the first few months they still think they are part of the mother.

[DemExpat]

14. Hmmmm.....my babies seemed very 'conscious' when they were

born - even though they may have felt part of me, they were certainly aware when I was not around, and hypersensitive they were too, to all sensory input and the feelings of those around them.....

DemEx

[Oggy]

22. Well I am a Dad

And that makes a big difference I guess :-)

[phantom power]

41. this is my point

we don't have any structural, or measureable, definition of awareness, and so we are all forced to guess. I expect that we will live to see the day that this changes, but we're not there yet.

Somebody else raised the good point that awareness isn't necessarily the end-all for making moral decisions, and I have to agree with that. But it does figure in, to whatever extent that avoidance of suffering is important to ethics.

[ultramega]

16. From demdave's article:

"Interestingly, even those authors who support a concept of fetal pain tend to back away when confronted with the need to explain the pain phenomenology....Lloyd-Thomas and Fitzgerald (1996) have suggested if feeling and pain are properly understood, the fetus cannot be said to feel pain."

And they are saying that if it does feel pain, it develops this capacity after 26 weeks:

next paragraph: "A further reason to doubt the viability of fetal pain post-26 weeks' gestation is the development of the fetal cortex...(mucho technicalis linguisiticus).

But they are saying the fetus reacts hormonally to surgery at earlier stages in development. I'm pro-choice but this bothers me. I once held puppies for a tail docking that the vet insisted they couldn't feel, and they screamed bloody murder and cried for a long time after it was done. They are post natal, but it's upsetting that we are so bogged down in the "moral implications" of this that we can't just give the fetus a shot of fentanyl or whatever this article said they use before neo-natal surgery. But oh NO, we can't admit that that would change every thing and make abortion morally wrong. Not in my book.

[LiberalFighter]

71. At what point does the nervous system develop?

I would think if there would be any point in the fetal development it would be at this stage that pain and pleasure starts.

[VelmaD]

68. Well

You can believe in a supernatural soul without believing that it inhabits the body from the moment of conception. Therefor abortion is not always wrong.

[papau]

17. Plant cells "scream" before being cut - proved on Johnie Carson yrs ago

Seems the animal intent is felt by plants and the cells stretch to get out of the way of being eaten (or cut or harvested) - maling a sound that Carson's Tonight show recorded and broadcast and which sounded like a scream.

Now do plants feel pain?

[kitkatrose]

36. Do you think you'll get an answer? n/t

[liberalhistorian]

21. No, judges cannot question based on heresay,

and that question DEFINITELY reveals his "own true feelings on the subject." There are a lot of wingnut judges, though, unfortunately, and this one appears to be among them!

[GiovanniC]

32. Read the Rest of His Questions

Which will only verify your suspicions.

[PurityOfEssence]

3. Something tells me there'll be some research funds freed up for this

in the near future.

[demdave]

5. Fetal “Pain” — A Look at the Evidence

Not being in the medical profession and not really knowing the rules for copying an article, other than the originally posted LBN, I will merely leave a link. This link is to an article on the American Pain Society's website.

http://www.ampainsoc.org/pub/bulletin/jul03/article1.htm

[Pale Blue Dot]

8. I don't remember a sigle thing that happened to me before, or

immeadiately after, I was born. This "Fetal pain" argument is a straw man.

[DemExpat]

11. Hypnosis possibly can bring these memories up out of the realm

of the "forgotten", according to some disciplines...

Primal therapy, hypnosis, some doctors like Frederik Leboyer who document the extreme sensitivity of newborns.... etc.

I personally would take it for granted that a more developed fetus would feel pain and treat it as if it did....

DemEx

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

33. I agree

On the other hand, talibornagains would have you believe a fertilized egg prevented from adhering to the uterus by an IUD plunges to a painful death screaming "why, o God, why?"

[demdave]

13. I was just presenting info, even the article is inconclusive.

The final paragraph leaves the impression that politics is damn near impossible to remove from the debate.

I believe the relevant sources of info on this subject would be those that dealt with fetal and neonatal surgery and care.

Your comment about not remembering is irrelevant. Are you implying that post birth abortion is OK?

[Pale Blue Dot]

23. No, I'm not arguing that post-birth abortion is OK.

I am arguing that the issue of "fetal pain" is a straw man and should have nothing to do with a medical decision to abort, especially when the woman's life is at risk.

[demdave]

28. We swab a condemned man's arm before a lethal injection.

This is a medical question. The question of whether to anesthetize a fetus before an abortion is a humanitarian issue. Why would it not be important to ease it's suffering if it felt pain?

P.S. Thank you DU for the spell checker.

[lostnfound]

24. Most don't remember babyhood either; so what's your argument?

That pain felt by infants isn't real pain, just because it's not remembered?

[ultramega]

7. Kind of a boondoggle

The right wouldn't touch it themselves, they couldn't associate themselves with actual abortions in any way. The left? I don't know if they would want to touch this either.

They'd have to get the vivisectionists that do all the sick animal experiments to research it. Inflicting pain doesn't bother them.

But one would think any obstretician (sp?) would already know the answer to this. I think it would have to do with the development of the cerebral cortex. Probably any general practitioner would know. I had a substitute teacher in high school tell me that she was an anti-abortion counselor and that abortion was terribly painful for the fetus, i remember her saying that "they burn off it's skin with saline solution" while it is being aborted. All the more reason for the morning after pill to be in vending machines, although this kind of reasoning escapes them.

I'm amazed they don't know of any research. Because they've done research to see if vegetables "feel pain" (react chemically) when they are cut.

[WhereIsMyFreedom]

51. There is a large gap between

a chemical reaction and feeling pain. Sure, pain has a chemical reaction component to it, as does pleasure or any other sensation. Pain is how our brain interprets certain chemical reactions.

How do they know the plants aren't actually feeling pleasure when cut?

[noonwitch]

6. I really don't think many women would undergo this procedure, unless their

lives are at stake, and the fetus' are not going to survive anyways. Late term abortions are not done to end an inconvenient pregnancy, regardless of the propaganda the right comes up with.

Any argument to the contrary is an insult to the intelligence and the morality of women.

[jmcgowanjm]

18. Fayetteville Ar Women's Clinic to suspend May 14

Dr Harrison had a stroke. Only abortion Clinic in
NWArkansas.

[BlueEyedSon]

9. So is anesthesia the solution to the moral dilemmas of abortion?

Just askin'....

[ultramega]

19. No.

I'm all for it, why not err on the side of caution.

But the religious right that protests the abortion so loudly believes that one has to be born and take Jesus Christ as their lord and saviour, or be "born again" to get to heaven. So to hear them tell it, the reason that abortion is so bad is because it dooms the fetus' soul to hell. (Not to mention all forms of life not human, and all hominids, humanoids and human beings that walked the earth before Jesus was born. Hell must be pretty damn crowded.)

I think Catholics believe if the child dies before it is baptized it goes to hell, but I am not sure. I was watching that sister on cable the other day and she said something like this.

[demdave]

20. What an uninformed position, let me help you on that......

The Church has given us no teaching on the eternal fate of these babies. The view of St. Thomas Aquinas has been widely accepted, never rejected by the Church.

Here is the his position:

1) On the one hand, there is no positive suffering for the babies, for they have no personal guilt. This is confirmed by Pope Pius IX, in Quanto conficiamur moerore, August 10, 1863 (DS 2866) "God in His supreme goodness and clemency, by no means allows anyone to be punished with eternal punishments who does not have the guilt of voluntary fault."

2) On the other hand, their souls seem to lack the transformation by grace needed for the Beatific Vision. So they cannot have it. But they have a natural happiness, and do not miss what they do not have.

There is more, if you care to have an informed position on what Catholics believe. I cannot speak for all Christians, but it is fairly easy to find the Catholic position on a subject without resorting to "that sister on cable the other day and she said something like this".

http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/most/getwork.cfm?worknum=89

[ultramega]

26. Sorry if I offended you.

The sister said her mother didn't have her baptized until she was six months old, and she thanked God she did not die during that time. I said "I think". Maybe I over-identified because I was raised as a christian to believe that aborted babies, Jews, Native Americans, SIDs babies and anyone else that died without salvation from Jesus went to hell. I dated a boy whose family was Jewish in high school, and it caused me a great deal of pain and worry that he was going to hell. I know better now, of course, but at the time it was a great source of angst.

Everything I stated in the post except the part about the cable nun was based on my own experience.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

34. A person you love is being tortured in Hell?

You're supposed to LIKE it! Or else! </chick></phelps>

[outinforce]

38. A Religious Friend of Mine

A religious friend of mine was told me something I'll never forget.

She said that her understanding of what Jesus said -- "Don't judge, so that you yourself will not be judged" -- meant, for her anyway, that no one should ever presume to "know" who will and who will not be in heaven or hell.

She went on to say that she understood Jesus to say that there may b esome real surprizes in store for people who think that they know who they will see when they get to heaven.

[outinforce]

25. I Can't Speak for The Religious Right

nor can I really speak for the religious left, either.

What I can share is the viewpoint of several very progressive and deeply religious people (both Christian and Jewish) people I know.

Their deep concern about abortion has really very little to do with whether any purported "soul" that a fetus might have goes to hell or not.

Rather, their concern is over destruction of innocent human life.

And this concerns arises from what they consider to be their religion's teaching about the very nature of human life.

They consider human life to have been created "in the image of God".

To them, that does not mean that humans look or act like God. Rather, it means that human life is quite different -- and quite special -- from any other form of life we know about. They believe that human life in general -- and each human life in particular -- is unique and special to God. And they believe that each human life is loved quite deeply by God.

It is this notion that motivates these folks I know to do all sorts of things to help the poor and suffering and the vulnerable and the powerless -- the people whom God loves, but whom the powerful and the rich have forgotten.

It is also this notion that causes these folks I know to be deeply troubled by the destruction of any unique human life -- especially any human life that is, as is the case with human fetuses, vulnerable and powerless -- that is deeply loved by God.

[ultramega]

30. My mother and father are both like this.

They believe all of the above.

And they both vigorously supported the invasion of Iraq, and still do, despite all the recent developments.

My mother can't have a discussion about abortion without going to pieces about the moral implications of it. I respect her point of view, and I am particulary upset that the pro-choice side of abortion does not want to allow women to acknowledge...never mind, that's another debate.

But when I said to my mother that upwards of 15,000 innocent people died in Iraq and Afghanistan, many of them children, she just looked at me and said nonchalantly "People die in wars all the time."

[liberalhistorian]

39. And that's the main problem I have with

many anti-abortion people, they go on and on about the "sanctity of life", blahblahblah, but when confronted with the pain and suffering and death of REAL LIVE CHILDREN they couldn't care less!

Believe me, I've known enough of them. They don't give a damn about children's lack of access to health care or good child care or the need for social services to deal with abused/neglected children (the "not my problem" mantra). I

've even shown graphic pictures of dead, dying, or injured children in Iraq, and they STILL couldn't care less! That's beyond hypocritical, as far as I'm concerned, that's damn near criminal!

[outinforce]

40. It Goes Both Ways

I'nm sure it's true that there are some pro-life folks who couldn't care less about the pain and suffering of real live children. I just don't know that many of them.

But your observation about hypocrisy caught my eye.

It has not escaped my notice that there atre some folks who would characterize themselves as being pro-choice and who also suggest that every American should look at the damage we are inflicting upon innocent people -- including chilcren -- in Iraq. Some of these folks come pretty close to saying that Americans who don't want to see with their own eyes the suffering of Iraqi children and the dead bodies of those children are in a state of deep denial about what we are doing in Iraq.

And yet, when confronted with photgraphs of the results of abortions, many of these same folks will insist that such photos are simply beyond the pale of both taste and sensitive discussion of the issues surrounding abortion.

Go figure.

[The Stranger]

42. This thead seems to disprove your theory.

There are posters whom are presumably left-wing and pro-choice discussing the issue that one would think (from your post) that they could not. The question presented is "does a fetus feel pain during abortion"?

So, although it may sound nice (and cliche), perhaps even nicely congruent, to say "it goes both ways," these boards seem to indicate that it doesn't.

[outinforce]

43. I'm Afraid

I'm afraid I'm missing your point.

What would lead you to believe that I would think that people who are left-wing and pro-choice could not discuss the issue of whether or not a fetus feels pain during an abortion?

[The Stranger]

46. Your prior post.

And yet, when confronted with photgraphs of the results of abortions, many of these same folks will insist that such photos are simply beyond the pale of both taste and sensitive discussion of the issues surrounding abortion.

[demdave]

47. I believe the operative word was "some".

"Some folks will insist". I have to agree. However, it should be noted that many times you will find opposing views on the same topic. I don't think you can make very many blanket statements about the folks around here. Generalizations, yes....but stone cold fact, never.

[outinforce]

49. My Only Point Was This

I am sure that there are indeed, as an earlier poster claims, some pro-life folks who don't care about children after they are born and who are completely insensitive when shown graphic pictures of dead, dying, or injured children in Iraq.

But I am also sure that there are some folks who say that they are pro-choice who, while expressing all sorts of concerns for dead, dying, and injured children in Iraq, are completely insensitive when shown graphic photographs showing the results of abortion, or the more grusome procedures sometimes used in late-term abortions.

That was really my only point.

ANd I do appreciate the views of those who have written to this thread.

[FlaGranny]

53. There is some truth to what you say, but I would

add that pro-choice people who aren't as disturbed when they see the "gruesome" late-term abortion pictures realize these pictures are depictions of procedures done for very valid reasons. There is either a nonviable fetus or a threat to life of the mother AND fetus. They are also aware that the procedure is extremely rare. This, opposed to bombing and mutilating kids and adults who are alive and healthy and living their lives - I'm afraid I can't see the comparison.

[outinforce]

57. Yes, What You Say is Certainly True

and some pro-life folks who aren't as disturbed when they see gruesome pictures of children who have been burnt, dismembered, or killed as a result of acts of war will tell you (as they have told me) that these are depictions of things that are the unfortunate results of actions that need to be taken in order to preserve our freedoms and our liberty.

They will also tell you (as they have told me) that because of the accuracy of American weapons of war, that such killings are extremely rare and never intentionally done.

They will also point out to you (as they have to me) that in some ocuntries, the lives of children are held in such low esteem that people use them as suicide bombers.

Not all pro-choice folks are insensitive to the terrible gruesomeness of abortion. Nor are all pro-life folks insensitive to the awful gruesomeness of war.

But there are som whose sensitivities to suffering, pain, dismemberment, and even death are somehow lacking, in part, I think, because of their attachment to a particualr point of view.

[lostnfound]

27. No, but 'do unto others as you would have them do unto you'

I think that includes anasthesia. And I think it's totally appropriate to make it standard practice. A harm to an argument is not worth unnecessary harm to a sentient life-form.

Occurs to me that following the golden rule doesn't necessarily preclude abortion: there are some lives that I would prefer not to be born into.

[outinforce]

29. Just Curious

When you say that there are some lives that you would prefer not to be born into, what sort of lives are these?

[lostnfound]

44. Not sure. Would I want to be born..

if my destiny was to starve to death as a small child?
if I were the child of a child?
if I were the child of rape or incest?
if I were horribly incapacitated?

"Where's there's life there's hope"..
Some live remarkable lives despite great handicap.
We all live remarkable lives, really. Unique. Beautiful.
I do not mean to say that any of these is less, or less deserving.

If there is a God, he may have great plans for even the least of us.

But..
if I could see into my own future before I was born, if it were MY decision about my OWN life -- like if I were a spirit in the sky waiting to be born -- and I knew that my mother was to be destroyed by my birth in some significant way..or that my OWN life was to be 'nasty, brutish and short'..would I say "I don't WANT to live that way.."

[outinforce]

45. I Want To Be Gentle

Thanks for your response.

I appreciate what you say.

I am always pained whenever I see the sugggestion that there are some lives that are just not worth living.

It pains me even more whenever I see the suggestion that the lives of those who are horribly incapacitated or who are the children born from rape are somehow not the lives a person would want to live.

It always seems to me that whenever such a suggestion is made, it is hurtful to the people who actually are horribly incapacitated or who actually are the children born out of rape.

These people who exist are just as much human beings as I am. And I sort of cringe whenever I see the suggestion -- however oblique uit is made -- that such people should not have been born.

It is my own view that as liberal and progressive people, we ought to do all that we can to provide for the needs ot people who, because opf severe handicaps, are unable to provide for themselves.

And I am talking not just about physical needs, but about emotional needs as well. People who are born or rape and people who are horribly incapacitated deserve our love, compassion, and support -- not an expression, however well-intentioned it might be, that somehow their lives are just not worht living.

I can think of few things more creul to tell another human being.

[lostnfound]

67. I totally agree. I'm NOT saying that such people shouldn't have been born.

or that they are less valuable or ANY such thing.

I hesitated to clarify my comments when the question was asked, because it was sure to be misinterpreted.

Here's what I'm trying to say.
Have you ever thought "I would sacrifice my own life to save another"?

Or perhaps after reading of lives of total desparation -- children born into slavery, or the mother in 'Angela's Ashes' -- thought to yourself 'no one should go through that'?

It's two different things to say:
1- If I were raped and pregnant at a young age, I would have the child.
2- If someone else was raped and pregnant at a young age, the right thing is for her to have the child.

and another to say:
3-If someone else was raped and pregnant at a young age, it's cruel to expect or force her to carry the child.

In the first case, I am focused on the value of the child, which is the same as every other child.
In the third case, I am focused on the trauma which has already been suffered by a young girl.

"If my own mother was raped and pregnant at a young age (with me), I would rather sacrifice my own life than have her suffer the trauma." When I say this, I am clearly focused on her trauma, not on my own value.

That is how I meant my comments.

[demdave]

50. A child of rape? This life is not worth living? How insightful.

You may want to look at your reasoning behind that statement.

[lostnfound]

59. You misunderstood me COMPLETELY.

I NEVER said the life wasn't worth living.

[outinforce]

60. Please Help Me To Understand

Please help me to understand what it is that you are saying.

Please help me to understand what you meant when you said earlier:

"Occurs to me that following the golden rule doesn't necessarily preclude abortion: there are some lives that I would prefer not to be born into."

[Bridget Burke]

63. Some women can rise above difficult circumstances....

Rape, severe deformity, etc.--and raise their children well.

But a child who truly was not wanted--for whatever reason--may grow up bitter and twisted.

It's very sad.

[outinforce]

66. I'm Sure It Is Sad....But

I'm quite sure that it is sad, but what do you say to those living people who were children who were not wanted?

Do you tell them that the world would be a better place if they had not been born?

Do you tell them that it would have been better -- for them -- if they had not been born?

I have a great deal of difficulty saying such a thing to another human being.

It just seems so terribly cruel to say, or even suggest, such a thing.

[Bridget Burke]

69. I've never had a child--wanted or not--so I've never said it

I have known some people who were told this by their mother. Felt very sorry for them.

Better to prevent the problem.

[lostnfound]

70. No, NEVER. None of the above.

The world would be less without them. Each story to be told is another book in the library of life.

Life is just heartbreaking. It is not a thing to be measured.
Not for all, but for some. Who can judge how much is too much?

[ultramega]

31. "A harm to an argument"

That's awesome. So aptly put, this is what I left in ellipses in one of my earlier posts. I get upset that pro-choice people, including myself, are so afraid our argument will be harmed, that they, or we, don't allow women who've had abortions to speak the truth of their experience. Women are different, and I know women who've had abortions who grieve deeply, and I know other women who've had them for whom it was more like outpatient surgery. The latter have more peace, and I think it is wrong to shut up the women for whom it is more than a fetus. It is not the same for all women, and I get the feeling that some believe that if we are not united around the fetus-viability argument, then our position of being pro-choice is somehow made invalid. I don't believe this.

[Sandpiper]

55. To me, it isn't an issue of fetal viability

To me it has always come down to this, a life in potential does not have rights that trump those of the life in being who carries it. That, to me, is what it means to be pro choice.

I'm not a woman, so I won't pretend to understand the emotional implications of having one's pregnancy aborted.

However, I do understand that there are some women for whom abortion is an emotionally traumatic experience. And if we marginalize what they have to say simply to protect the pro choice argument, it makes us no better than the anti choice movement who tries to demonize every woman who has an abortion as selfish and emotionally shallow.

[shadu]

37. You make good sense

[FlaGranny]

35. Not that this is an answer to the abortion question, but

anesthesia is easily accomplished in the fetus just by giving it to the mother. In fact, general anesthesia given to the mother is dangerous to the fetus, as it suppresses the breathing reflex. That's why most deliveries are now done without general anesthesia.

As an aside, is there anyone who believes that normal vaginal delivery is not painful for the child? I'd imagine it would not be quite as painful for the child as it is for the mother, but it can't feel good to get squeezed in a vice - not to mention being forced from a nice warm, comfortable, dark place to a noisy, bright, and cold environment. Birth itself is traumatic. Nature has good reasons for the timing of brain and memory development.

[AlienGirl]

48. A chicken can feel pain

A chicken can feel pain, but most people would not argue that therefore all killing ofchickens is wrong--merely that they ought to be killed in the most humane possible manner.

Similarly, abortions should be performed in the most humane possible manner.

Tucker

[mistertrickster]

52. When does the brain develop? No brain, no pain . . .

duh

[GOPBasher]

56. True.

That would be my next question. Anyone happen to know that piece of info? When does the brain start to develop?

[outinforce]

58. When Does The Brain "Start" to Develop?

A suggestion --

You might want to re-phrase your question.

Because there are those who would argue that the brain starts to develop at the moment of conception -- or, if not then, at the moment the fetilized egg impalnts itself onto the woman's uterus.

[pacifictiger]

54. thats such a bogus argument.

Individual cells react under real or imagined pain. Experiments have shown that DNA spirals will contract or relax depending on happy/relaxed thoughts vs frightning/sad/painful thoughts. And don't you suppose that fetal cells might be influenced on the attitude of the mother also?
Plants have been monitored to have reactions. Bugs too. No-one alive has not experienced pain. Does this argument mean if one feels pain what we are doing is wrong? That rules out a mother giving birth then!

[Shakespeare]

61. Why has no one commented on the judge's biased attitude?

Did anybody read the entire article? Check out this leading question:

<<Casey asked Johnson if doctors tell a woman that the abortion procedure they might use includes "sucking the brain out of the skull."

"I don't think we would use those terms," Johnson said. "I think we would probably use a term like 'decompression of the skull' or 'reducing the contents of the skull.'"

The judge responded, "Make it nice and palatable so that they wouldn't understand what it's all about?"

Johnson, though, said doctors merely want to be sensitive.

"We try to do it in a way that's not offensive or gruesome or overly graphic for patients," Johnson said.>>

This judge has an agenda, and the attorneys for the pro-choice side should be screaming to the heavens about it.

[Malva Zebrina]

62. Maybe the judge should ask the fetus. EOM

[outinforce]

64. You Can't Be Serious

because if you were, you would be suggesting that a judge acknowledge that a fetus had the right to be heard in a court of law.

[Shakespeare]

65. That she isn't serious is, I believe, the point.

Nice try, though.