Chavez backs China over Nobel for jailed dissident

[hack89]

Source: Denver Post

ARACAS, Venezuela—Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez expressed solidarity with China's government Sunday over the awarding of the Nobel Peace Prize to a jailed Chinese dissident. He suggested the prize should not have gone to Liu Xiaobo, who has drawn praise from Western governments as an advocate of gradual political change without any violent confrontation with Chinese leaders.

Speaking in his weekly radio and television program, Chavez scoffed at his Venezuelan political opponents who praised the giving of the peace prize to Liu.

Chavez said the opposition's support for the prize showed that "they are lackeys" of the West. "They are worse than the Yankees."

"Our greetings and solidarity go to the government of the People's Republic of China," Chavez said, adding: "Viva China! And its sovereignty, its independence and its greatness."



Read more: http://www.denverpost.com/rawnews/ci_16304583

[ClarkUSA]

1. Where are all the Hugo Chavez fans? I'd love to hear them rationalize this crap.

Chavez backs China over Nobel for jailed dissident

Source: Denver Post

ARACAS, Venezuela—Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez expressed solidarity with China's government Sunday over the awarding of the Nobel Peace Prize to a jailed Chinese dissident. He suggested the prize should not have gone to Liu Xiaobo, who has drawn praise from Western governments as an advocate of gradual political change without any violent confrontation with Chinese leaders.

Speaking in his weekly radio and television program, Chavez scoffed at his Venezuelan political opponents who praised the giving of the peace prize to Liu.

Chavez said the opposition's support for the prize showed that "they are lackeys" of the West. "They are worse than the Yankees."

"Our greetings and solidarity go to the government of the People's Republic of China," Chavez said, adding: "Viva China! And its sovereignty, its independence and its greatness."

Read more: http://www.denverpost.com/rawnews/ci_16304583

[Prometheus Bound]

2. That's a strange expectation.

That because one agrees with President Chavez on some issues one must necessarily agree on all.

[HughMoran]

8. That's actually quite common

Several are unable to criticize Chavez and get angry at those who do.

[WinkyDink]

46. The opposite works quite well.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[iandhr]

3. it will come

But seriously it amazing people don't see him for what he is. I think him standing with Ahmadinejad would have done it.

[davidinalameda]

6. one would think

pretty sad actually that they refuse to see the truth

sad to think that anyone can actually defend the Iranian regime

[Vidar]

12. I'm a big fan of Chavez & would take him over Obama any day,

but he makes mistakes once in a while & this is one of them

[MellowDem]

18. Chavez...

is a demagouge asshole on par intellectually with Sarah Palin, even if he is ideologically at the other end of the scale. But, lots of people do love Sarah. Guess it shouldn't surprise me so many can get duped by Chavez as well.

[RedCloud]

34. Chávez should win Nobel for Economics! Here's why!

[bherrera]

63. Post 2009 and 2010 data

And you will see the economic growth has collapsed. The economy of Venezuela is correlated to oil prices, with the exception of the year when they had an oil worker's strike. Oil prices reached the peak in 2008. It is simple.

[oberliner]

73. You would take Hugo Chavez over Obama any day?

Is that meant to be satirical?

[Vidar]

78. Nope.

[oberliner]

112. Nope you wouldn't take Chavez or Obama or nope it wasn't meant to be satirical?

If it's the latter - can you explain why you think Chavez is a better leader than Obama?

[Mike Marble]

24. On edit: Oops, wrong place.

[Kolesar]

38. You should be working on an activist campaign

...or otherwise doing something productive.

[24601]

72. Constructive criticism is productive. It's the "my mind is made up,

don't confuse me with facts" that isn't.

Yes, DU is a progressive forum; however, looking at issues objectively, conducting meaningful introspection and evolving when appropriate isn't a bad thing.

The view that everything Bush ever did was a war crime and that everything Democrats ever did is worth of another Nobel puts on a set of blinders that sets us up for failure. And for Chavez, he's not going to do a thing to help elect anybody - other than galvanize the opposition.

The tone that Republicans are enemies of the state rather than political opponents does not serve us well, especially when it comes to persuading the independents that will ultimately decide who runs Congress after next month's elections and who holds the White House from the 2012 elections. Yep, that's right, effective governing requires compromise - and that means nobody gets the whole pie. It means that you have to consider what others value and implement some of their priorities as well. For the independents, the biggest thing is the debt load added since we took control of Congress in January 2007 and the WH in January 2009. Ignoring that concern or just blaming the previous incumbents just won't wash except with those at the margins who cannot by themselves carry an election for county dogcatcher.

If you are concerned over the tone on politics, fix what you can fix. I happen to believe that if Speaker Pelosi hadn't governed with a my way or the highway, she wouldn't be in danger of becoming Ex-Speaker come January.

You can rant & rave, or you can win & govern in a coalition that includes those holding the middle ground. You have to share the pie-cutting decisions but would you rather the middle grounders share that authority with the right? Is this going to be about electing Democrats or about complaining about those elected instead of democrats? Choose which you value the most.

[COLGATE4]

52. Crickets...............

[nyy1998]

58. +1

[w4rma]

4. He looks bad kissing China's government's ass. (nt)

[whatchamacallit]

5. He's small potatoes compared to the dictator the US had for 8 years

but you go ahead and rail

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[molly77]

16. Bush even admitted that a dictatorship would be fine if he were

the dictator. You must not have lived in the US during those awful 8 years. Remember when the country got bankrupted and the constitution was ripped to shreds?

[JoeyT]

19. Absolutely.

It's not as if American presidents demand the right to kidnap then imprison, torture, or murder citizens without trials or anything.
Right?
Right. Nothing to see here.

[Ysabela]

30. How does coming to power in a bloodless coup...

NOT make one a dictator? Unless you're one of those crazy conspiracy theorists that believes Bush actually won FL in 2000 and OH in 2004 despite all the facts showing otherwise.

[Spider Jerusalem]

9. If Venezuela were as powerful as the United States...

then he'd probably be worse. Just saying.

[hack89]

10. I agree with you that in the grand scheme of things Hugo is insignificant

but a factual news report with no additional commentary is hardly railing. But then, you don't have much to work with when it comes to defending this, do you?

[24601]

11. I knew one of his apologists would chime in with our daily dose of

hate. Our worst President from either/any party on his worst day was still better than Chavez on his best day.

[Regret My New Name]

41. That's a bit hyperbolic

Is he really THAT bad? I too find some of the unconditional support of him to be annoying(perhaps amusing), but he's hardly some evil guy hell bent doing evil to his people for his own gain.

[24601]

71. It is hyperbolic - and that's completely in line with the tone on DU.

I do believe Chavez is one of the bad guys. He's out for himself first & foremost and if his people benefit, it's coincidence, not cause & effect. More importantly, he's hell bent on doing bad vis a vis our people. And most importantly, his personal arms race is likely to further nuclear proliferation.

I'm not saying that President Obama should send out a CIA team to kill the guy, but neither do I see the proliferation of dictators (and he has certainly shown those traits) good for this world.

Thanks for commenting.

[MellowDem]

20. What was that?

You don't like the story so you change the subject? Hell, I'm glad Chavez is in power over that other guy, but he's still a demagouge and an asshole.

[Better Today]

13. Generally, I'm okay with Chavez, but this is not an opinion I can share.

I would've expected something calling us hypocrites, considering the unfairness of our judicial system, or something like that. The solidarity with China, is quite disconcerting.

[Matilda]

14. I support much of what Chavez has done,

but I can't agree with him on this.

China has an appalling human rights record, and I wouldn't defend them or anyone who supports their repression
of activists.

[MellowDem]

21. Don't forget the solidarity with Iran as well...

I agree, it is disconcerting and perhaps a sign that Chavez says one thing but does another. Socialist Revolution does not seem to be Chavez's primary motivater.

[Better Today]

50. I actually don't have a problem with his solidarity with

Iran vs USA because it isn't like some of our solidarity "friends" are more than a little questionable. But if it was Iran against the Nobel Prize, I'd agree.

[MellowDem]

56. Well, it has nothing to do with the US...

but if you want to bring the US into it as a justification for it, it makes sense. Personally, I don't like that the US says one thing and does another in foriegn policy and wouldn't use it as an excuse for other nations to do the same.

[Better Today]

57. Comparison is the only legitimate way to criticize, imo.

Except in certain fantasy books that some call religious texts, utopia doesn't exist and never will. Additionally I don't live in utopia even if it exists somewhere I'm unaware of. So comparing reality to idealism and using that as an excuse to unload on one person as being soley and wholey responsible for some horrible POV is ridiculous. It is fair to compare them to ourselves, and other nations that actually exist. As far as I know, not one nation or national leader anywhere can claim that their list of friends is pure white, or anywhere even close, particularly if we are on their friends list.

You want to judge reality against some unattainable idealism and think that's a fair assessment, then I guess I understand why your opinion on this Chavez will never matter. This type of judgment should be retained for our own country so we improve, not as a way to slam others who are certainly doing no worse than our country is.

[MellowDem]

59. Well, I of course agree...

but there are some who really do look at the world through idealistic lenses. Quite a few actually. And quite a few are on this board. That is part of the problem, imo.

[EFerrari]

93. The US "said" it wanted to start a new relationship with Latin America

and proceeded to re-militarize the region as well as throw large sums of money at the right wing opposition in Ecuador, Bolivia and Venezuela. The Honduran coup was probably planned at State, the Clinton fingerprints are all over it.

We do this all the time in Latin America and that's why Chavez made these comments. They were much more about us than about China.

[Umbral]

15. Oh, China, the people he's going to be doing business with? I'm shocked, shocked I tell you. nt

[MellowDem]

23. I AM shocked!

I thought Chavez was a socialist revolutionary! He shouldn't put evil capitalist business interest before his ideology! Oh, my head is exploding!

:nuke:

[ronnie624]

27. The Chavez administration has always been inclined to organizing a mixed economy,

not producing a strictly socialist "utopia".

Sarcasm isn't very effective if it is not in some way premised in reality.

[MellowDem]

49. Well, the reality is some think Chavez is...

trying to produce a strictly socialist utopia, and hearing that he is putting capitalism before ideology would shock them. That is why Chavez always tries to couch his motivation as some sort of reaction to the evil Empire of the US, not some calculated business move with little consideration for human rights.

[Umbral]

51. I don't see how a socialist utopia precludes foreign trade.

Even if I were to accept your "some think, some say" assertions.

[MellowDem]

55. It doesn't...

except perhaps in having to defend the human rights abuses of other nations in order to gain trade privileges. I would think a socialist utopia would not do something like that, personally. Or at least they would be honest about it and just say they don't agree with the human rights abuses but there is nothing to do about it. But I suppose it all depends on what your idea of a utopia is. Having a demagouge as the leader doesn't fit the definition in my book.

[Umbral]

100. A socialist utopia might forgo such crass hypocrisy, but a capitalistic utopia obviously wont. nt

[hack89]

39. God forbid a president puts principle over pragmatism. nt

[DeSwiss]

17. Now we know how much....

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/19/world/americas/19venez.html">Chávez Says China to Lend Venezuela $20 Billion (NYT)

[ProudDad]

26. Ah, NYT -- another unbiased source... NOT! (n/t)

[Ikonoklast]

43. From the horse's mouth.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-04-18/china-lends-venezuela-20-billion-for-oil-venture-chavez-says.html


You can see why Chavez is doing China's bidding now.

His concern over human rights evidently only goes as far as China tells him it goes.

[joshcryer]

84. Ding ding.

[DeSwiss]

74. They're all biased.....

...in one way or another. But in this instance it's simply a matter of facts: $20 billion to Venezuela from China. And of course the same can be said of the U.S. when it "loans" money to its lackeys.

- But as an astute person once remarked: "Just follow the money."

"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." ~ George Bernard Shaw

[JoeyT]

22. And we've condemned this sort of thing by doing what, exactly?

Buying their cheap plastic crap by the truckload?

I don't particularly care for Chavez for the most part. I agree with him about some things, but I'd be hard pressed to find someone I didn't agree with about SOMETHING. On the other hand, glass houses and throwing stones comes to mind.

And it applies to both sides of the argument: Refusing to condemn human rights abuses and committing them ourselves and refusing to stop.

[ProudDad]

25. He also correctly castigated the Nobel folks

for giving the Peace Prize to Obama last year...

Who ended up pissing on it in his acceptance speech by trying to justify widening the war in Afghanistan/Pakistan...

I agree that Hugo went over the line in order to castigate the Satan of the North, the USAmerikan Empire (which roundly deserves it)...

But I think everyone should be free...

--------------------------------------

Of course you're all just assuming that this is true

Most times the US M$M prints bullshit about Chavez -- they're like the little boy who cried Wolf most of the time...making shit up...

So I'd prefer some corroboration a more authoritative source than AP...there is NO other source than this one anonymous AP "article"...

So, for now, I don't believe he said any such thing...

It's up to you Chavez haters to prove he did...

[harmonicon]

40. thank you for pointing this out; I was afraid that I would be the first

Somehow when a freely and fairly elected president of a democratic country voices his opinion, he's a dictator pandering to his evil allies (unless of course it's a white person, in which case it would just be seen as voicing an opinion by the Chavez haters on this board).

[Ikonoklast]

44. You are making a fool of yourself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JafTAFTs9a4

If you don't like the source, here's who they are: http://tantaonews.com/?page_id=2

[ProudDad]

69. So China's buying Venezuelan oil

Just like the USAmerikan Empire's buying Venezuelan oil...

Doesn't prove anything...except China's buying Venezuelan oil...

Still NO CORROBORATION of AP's typically scurrilous lies...

You're the one making a fool of yourself... :eyes:

[bherrera]

104. As reported by the Venezuelan government website

This is in Spanish, if you can't read it, use a translator software. I found the site using the Google

From the Alo Presidente website:

"El presidente Hugo Chávez envió este domingo un mensaje de solidaridad al Gobierno chino, en rechazo a las críticas hechas por la oposición venezolana en torno al caso del disidente asiático, Lu Xiaobo.

“Vaya nuestro saludo y nuestra solidaridad al Gobierno de la República Popular China, al camarada Hu Jintao. ¡Viva China, su soberanía, su independencia y su grandeza!”, expresó el líder de la Revolución Bolivariana."

http://www.alopresidente.gob.ve/info/2/1929/gobierno_venezolano_ratifica.html

[Socal31]

29. Shocking!

[maddezmom]

31. press release from Venezuela Gov't webiste

http://www.alopresidente.gob.ve/info/2/1929/gobierno_venezolano_ratifica.html
translated into English

He greeted the Chinese people and its President Hu Jintao
Venezuelan government reaffirms solidarity with China for Lu Xiaobo President Chavez dismissed the Venezuelan opposition press which attacked the Chinese Government. He said the Bureau of the Ultra Right (MUD) incurred claim to direct that message to China José Manuel Blanco Díaz / Presidential Press October 10, 2010 Photo: Presidential PressPresident Hugo Chavez on Sunday sent a message of solidarity to the Chinese government to reject the criticisms made by the Venezuelan opposition on the case of dissident Asia, Lu Xiaobo.

"Go to our greetings and solidarity with the Government of the People's Republic of China, Comrade Hu Jintao. Viva China, its sovereignty, independence and greatness! "Said the leader of the Bolivarian Revolution.

The president dismissed the statement issued by the Venezuelan opposition party coalition, calling themselves officers of the Unit (MUD), and commented that "the Bureau of the Ultra Right requesting the immediate release of Nobel Prize winner for peace, Lu Xiaobo.

He described the opposition as a statement of claim, by stating that these adverse political groups feel Revolution empire, fawns and are worse than the Yankees: they are pitiyanquis. "

In addressing the topic of Xiaobo said, "is being held in China, and they (the opposition), now called the Chinese government already has to liberate it."

He said it is good to read the information published by the press about the statement that he called "Bureau of the Ultra Right" to gauge what's behind it and what would happen if they return to rule Venezuela.

"It would break relations with China immediately and destroy all that we have come to China, would break relations with Cuba immediately and take between now and the Cuban doctors and would end Barrio Adentro, the CDI (Integral Diagnostic Centers), the CAT (Center for High Technology) and Barrio Adentro I, all this would end, "he said.

Added, for example, that would remove Venezuela's ALBA (Bolivarian Alternative for the Peoples of Our America) immediately and ultimately shut the doors of the future.

"That will not happen and we are here to stop it. We go to 2012 to prove it, "he said emphatically.

[Prometheus Bound]

32. The bureau of MUD?

Aw shit, these ultra rightists.

[bherrera]

62. Venezuela opposition not ultra rightist

The opposition in Venezuela is composed of many different parties, some of which are clearly socialists. They received a majority of the popular vote in the recent elections, which means they are not properly defined as "ultra rightists". Some of the states where the opposition won in large numbers are states of oil and agricultural workers, which united to fight government corruption.

[RedCloud]

33. So are there Nobel critics of Western life?

If not, then think about that!

[jonathan_seer]

35. It's amazing how many "so called progressives" see his actions as Anti-American, not Pro-Venezuela

If he truly were Anti-American and mad he would long ago tried to punish us (and fail more than likely) by interrupting the supply of oil we import from Venezuela.

The truth is there has NOT been ONE SINGLE PROVOCATIVE military or otherwise act against the USA on the part of Chavez' Venezuela.

Everything we hear is "paranoia projections" describing predicting something terrible will happen if we don't "do something" about that communist Chavez.

As it is, no matter how much he yells and shouts, he is NO danger to us, BUT we could easily become a deadly danger to him.

Have we forgotten the coup that temporarily held him captive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Venezuelan_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat_attempt

Most of us are unaware of how President Bush's ambassador to Venezuela a strident Right Wing Cuban American thought Chavez had to be deposed because of his support for Castro, nothing else mattered.

Most of us are unaware, because it all happened near the height of the spell of paranoid driven anxiety that gripped the USA right after 9/11. All our Attn. was on the aftermath. That's when the Ambassador tried to press his advantage apparently, and actually it seems without the full awareness of the Bush. Admin for they were focused on Iraq.

The coup lasted only 2 days, BUT the USA immediately recognized the declared leader of the coup, amazing.

So now we see Chavez cozying up to PR China, and we get pissed, angry, annoyed that a Latin American nation would act "anti-American."

Just how ludicrous this is is WE THE USA HAVE COZIED UP TO PR CHINA FAR MORE THAN ANY OTHER NATION.

It's our corporate leader's willingness to transport our entire manufacturing capability to PR China that has largely produced their economic development.

And so many Americans see nothing wrong with that, but feel their blood curdle when a leader of another nation makes jesters of friendship to THE SAME NATION.

His actions are strictly to bolster his nation against what he sees as an adversary.

This is NOT the same as getting ready to start a war. It does NOT even imply hostile intent.

What it does say clearly is we know the best defense against the world's #1 power is to have as many friends as he can who might come to our defense diplomatically should we be attacked.

We've got to get real.

Chavez will never hurt the USA, because HE CAN'T.

He KNOWS our retaliation would be worse than anything he could do, and our military/industrial complex has been desperate to use him as a justification to keep their funding sky high

Whether he would like to is irrelevant, only capabilities matter.

Instead all the wasted energy going towards worrying about Chavez would be far better spent figuring out how our own nation has been so willing to sacrifice our own to get things cheap from PR China.

Now letting that continue unabated is a FAR GREATER DAngER TO THE USA than Chavez will ever be.

[DissedByBush]

36. It's not anti-American, it's anti-human

Power hungry dictators tend to stick together, thus the solidarity with China, Cuba, North Korea and Iran.

[Better Today]

54. Since when is an elected president a dictator? Unless,

like some repubs who think Obama is the Manchurian candidate, you think Chavez was somehow falsely elected. And though he put to the public a possibility of running for more terms than their constitution allows, when that vote failed, he accepted the peoples' choice. His normal and acceptable 2nd turn isn't completed yet, we'll see if he turns into a dictator, but at the moment, he is nothing akin to a dictator.

[DissedByBush]

76. Hitler was elected too, so that's not a good indicator n/t

[Prometheus Bound]

37. Yes, some good points there.

In fact China, Iran and Cuba have shown nothing but friendship and respect for Venezuela and President Chavez. Why shouldn't he show them the same in return?

[davidinalameda]

80. he should show three of the biggest huma rights violators in the world

all the friendship and respect he can gather

how is his relationship with North Korea

[naaman fletcher]

45. Good post.

But, what does that have to do with the topic at hand?

[Better Today]

53. Good points

[bherrera]

65. Venezuela ability to cut oil exports to USA

Venezuela is a minor oil exporter today. If it decides to cut the exports to the USA, it will hurt itself more than it will hurt the USA. Therefore Venezuela is not likely to cut oil sales. Also, if it did so, then the USA would retaliate, and cut off the sales of food and other materials to Venezuela, and this will hurt Venezuela more than it hurts the USA. Therefore, in such a commercial war, Venezuela, which is a lot smaller, and has a very weak economy, will not win.

The USA does not need to use military methods in such a situation at all. While it is true the Military Industrial Complex of the USA is a very strong lobby, it requires the Israel lobby to support war. And the Israel lobby is not likely to support war against Venezuela, because there is not sufficient criticality and they are more interested to see the USA attack Iran.

[TexasObserver]

42. Of course he did. They're using HIS playbook.

What a jackass.

[WinkyDink]

47. Given how China owns us, I'm surprised US politicians haven't spoken similarly.

[Umbral]

48. Viva China! So hows this any different than the US giving China 'Most Favored Nation' trading status

and otherwise bending over backwards to accommodate a communist nation, despite numerous and egregious human rites violations and industrial malpractice? Hummm?

[w4rma]

60. Every DLC and Republican 'free' trader looks bad kissing China's government's ass, too. (nt)

[Freddie Stubbs]

61. How many DLCers are applauding China on jailing this dissadent?

[Imajika]

64. Oh, I am sure this is just a mistranslation...

The Chavez cheerleader brigade will be sure to let us know.

Does Chavez still considering Mugabe and Ahmadinejad his brothers?

[NashVegas]

66. MY GOD, YOU'RE SO RIGHT!!!! WE NEED TO KICK CHINA OUT OF THE WTO AND REVOKE "MOST FAVORED" TRADE ...

That way, we can show the world how the USA REALLY feels!

[Dreamer Tatum]

67. Who buys more oil: China, or a Chinese dissident?

It's just business, folks.

[Marengo]

68. I've always wondered how dog treats taste

Perhaps I should ask Hugo, he evidently knows

[Peace Patriot]

70. The U.S. is utterly hypocritical when it comes to human rights. Look what's happening in Honduras!

Hundreds of coup opposers--including labor leaders, teachers, human rights workers, peaceful political protesters and gay/lesbian activists--beaten, jailed, raped, tortured, murdered by rightwing death squads. Honduras is a U.S. CLIENT STATE, dependent on U.S. military and other aid, and on remittances, Honduran military commanders trained at the "School of the Americas," U.S. military bases in the country. President Zelaya tries to assert some independence--for instance, by joining the Venezuela-organized ALBA trade group, and by RAISING THE MINIMUM WAGE for poor workers at U.S. retailers' sweatshops and on Chiquita farms in Honduras, and the far rightwing allied with U.S. interests boots him out--shoots up his house, drags him out of bed, and puts him on a plane out of the country, at gunpoint, with a stop for refueling at the U.S. air base in Sota Cano, Honduras.

The U.S. State Department, using U.S. taxpayer money through the USAID, including groups like John McCain's "International Republican Institute," then stages an "election" UNDER MARTIAL LAW, in which the coup leaders' choice for president 'wins."

U.S. government contempt for human rights couldn't be clearer--except in Colombia, another U.S. client state ($7 BILLION in U.S. military aid) where THOUSANDS of trade unionists, human rights workers, teachers, community activists, journalists, political leftists, peasant farmers and others have been MURDERED by the Colombian military (about half) and by their closely tied rightwing paramilitary death squads (the other half), with nearly complete impunity! The U.S. support for this carnage--for this political death squad/military cleansing--couldn't be clearer. The U.S. government couldn't be closer to, couldn't be more friendly with, couldn't be more supportive of Colombia's bloodsoaked fascist elite!

Widen the lens, and consider the U.S. "shock and awe" bombing of a virtually defenseless city--Baghdad--and the slaughter of some ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND innocent people, in the initial bombing alone, the high civilian toll in Afghanistan, the U.S. death squads running around both countries creating mayhem, and the torture of helpless prisoners in U.S. torture dungeons around the world, and U.S. "concern" about "human rights" becomes the cruelest joke of the 21st century.

We are looking at an upside down, "Alice in Wonderland" world, in which the Nobel Committee gives its famous Peace Prize to a U.S. president who is conducting two wars on behalf of U.S. multinational corporate interests and war profiteers, and, little known by most Americans, a third war in Latin America against political dissidents in Colombia and Honduras--proxy wars funded by our tax dollars, and with tacit U.S. government approval--and then the Nobel Committee turns around and, by implication, criticizes China. U.S. "drones" and assassination squads killing civilians in Afghanistan, U.S. escalation of that war, U.S.-created mayhem in Iraq, with no end to that mayhem in sight because the U.S. deliberately destroyed that country, U.S. dollars supporting the murder of "dissident" civilians in Colombia and Honduras, U.S. failure to hold anyone responsible for huge war crimes--all this is okay, but Chinese human rights violations, oh, that's terrible.

The hypocrisy of both the U.S. government and the Nobel Peace Prize Committee is mind-boggling.

President Chavez of Venezuela has three very good reasons for not supporting this egregious hypocrisy:

1. Venezuelan sovereignty--perhaps THE most important issue to the leftist democracy movement that has swept Latin America. Venezuela has a right to its own foreign policy, not dictated by the U.S. And if you don't understand this issue, from Latin America's point of view, consider this: After the Chavez government made trade deals with Iran and invited Iran's president to Venezuela, Brazil did the same! These leaders--Hugo Chavez and Lula da Silva--don't approve of human rights violations--both are big human rights advocates--but they have a RIGHT as the presidents of sovereign countries to negotiate with, trade with and engage in diplomacy with, whomever they wish! Is Saudi Arabia any better than Iran as to human rights? Saudi Arabia is a frigging absolute monarchy, where women have virtually no human and civil rights! Doesn't stop the U.S. from larding that regime with military aid, and making a close ally of it. Is it wrong to negotiate? Is it wrong to trade? Is it wrong to engage in diplomacy? Is it wrong to seek avenues of peace, not war, with Iran--or any other country? No, it is not. It is what sovereign governments do. THAT is the Venezuela government's view of the matter--and it is the majority view in Latin America. No more dictates from the warmongering U.S.--not on Iran, not on Cuba, not on China, not on any matter. Latin America is becoming an independent region. It's not just Venezuela, or Brazil, or Bolivia, or Ecuador, or Argentina, or Paraguay, or Uruguay, or Nicaragua, or other leftist governments--it's all of them--and this consensus even includes center and center-right governments on some issues (such as Cuba).

2. Venezuela's economy. The Chavez government has made big trade deals with China--mostly for oil development and supply--and took out a big loan from China, for development projects in Venezuela. That is Venezuela's RIGHT--to acquire economic partners. And how they handle diplomatic relations with China, in this context, is also their RIGHT. This is no different from the U.S. ignoring human rights violations in Saudi Arabia, because it wants Saudi Arabia's oil and it wants Saudi Arabia as a strategic ally in the Middle East, and it is considerably less offensive than the U.S. larding billions of our tax dollars on the Colombia military--one of the worst human rights violators on earth (with the U.S. having far worse motives than Venezuela's re China--motives that include gross interference in Latin America, on behalf of multinational corporations and war profiteers, up to and including what is very likely a U.S. war plan against Venezuela). Governments are obliged to attend to their countries' economies. It's too bad for us that our government--or rather, our real rulers (the multinationals and war profiteers who control U.S. policy)--neglects and punishes the poor, the workers and the middle class here, in favor of the super-rich, while the Venezuela government acts on behalf of its poor majority, and uses its resources, its good credit and its economic clout to provide jobs, education, health care, local development and many other social/economic benefits.

3. Venezuela's part in regional strategy. We must realize that Venezuela is not alone in declaring its independence from the U.S. There is a strong movement afoot to create a Latin American common market--which the U.S. will not be invited to join if it continues behaving as it has, in Latin America and the world. This movement is strongest in South America, which has made the most strides toward this goal. It is no accident that the hero of this movement is Simon Bolivar--the leader of the independence fight against Spain--who envisioned a "United States of Latin America." Latin American is rich in natural resources, and its many leftist governments have been pouring money into education. This could be "Latin America's Century," so to speak, and they intend to achieve it peacefully through trade (as opposed to the U.S., which got bent toward achieving power through war--i.e., the Bushwhacks' "Project for a New American Century"). It is quite consistent with this overall movement that individual countries, including Venezuela and Brazil, for instance, would be seeking trade, economic deals, financial deals and political/diplomatic ties across a wide spectrum of the world. In the REAL world, such activities often require supporting your economic partners in the public arena--on the world stage--and perhaps seeking change, for instance, on human rights abuses, by means of back channels. I don't know if this is Venezuela's or Brazil's intention--back channel work. Their more visible intention is to prevent a U.S. war on Iran. But opening trade relations provides an opportunity both to prevent war and to influence governments and societies where human rights abuses occur. (If you saber rattle and condemn, condemn, condemn, you get nowhere.) In any case, Latin American leaders want a world in which peaceful trade on a level playing field is possible. They want to become an "economic block" with their own goals and to the benefit of their own people. Venezuela's backing of China on this Nobel Peace Prize issue MUST be seen in this context, because that IS its context. This is no different than Lula da Silva inviting Iran's president to Brazil (and his work to end UN sanctions against Iran). It is part of the SAME goal--multilateral trade, Latin American economic development and collective clout. The Chavez government is acting IN COORDINATION with other leftist leaders to achieve THEIR goals. (Chavez meets monthly with Lula da Silva for this purpose!).

I won't go into the hypocrisy (and bad, bad impacts here) of U.S. trade relations with China. Or the U.S. debt paper that China holds. Or the mistakes or motives of the Nobel Peace Committee. I just want people to understand the REALITY in Latin America (where this position of the Chavez government is coming from) and also I would like people to pay attention to the "divide and conquer" disinformation campaign against the Chavez government by the U.S. State Department and the corpo-fascist press. They want to DIVIDE Venezuela FROM Brazil and other countries, in order to sabotage the movement toward a Latin American common market. The U.S. government--or, rather, the real rulers of the U.S.--still consider Latin America to be their "back yard." They want unfettered access to its resources and they want slave labor for the multinationals. Colombia and Honduras are prime examples of the thrust of U.S. policy in Latin America, which has not changed in six decades.

The corpo-fascist press highlighting this position of the Chavez government and UTTERLY IGNORING U.S. support for the terrible human rights abuses in Honduras and Colombia is just one example of the distortion that we are seeing in coverage of the Chavez government. It may be a legit news item that Chavez is backing China in this dispute. But it is NOT legitimate when you consider what they are IGNORING. This has been true of EVERY issue having to do with Venezuela--twisted, distorted, selective reporting, no background, no context, with huge "black holes" where information should be, and fantastic bias toward whatever the U.S. government is saying, on every front. They pick and choose stories on this basis--to demonize Chavez--and they tell you NOTHING about why Chavez is so popular, nothing about his alliances all over Latin America, nothing of his government's achievements, and nothing of the continent-wide movement of which he is just one leader.

I call it stupid-making 'news' because I think that that is one of its chief aims: To produce stupid Americans, who don't have a goddamn clue what is really going on in the rest of the world, nor who is really running their government nor toward what ends. People who thinking that Hugo Chavez is a "dictator" and Exxon Mobil isn't. People who think that Exxon Mobil believes in competition.

[bherrera]

75. This is about Liu Xiabao

Why don't you start a separate thread about US human rights abuses? The question being debated is the Nobel Prize awarded to a Chinese dissident, who is jailed because he proposes the Chinese people be free. This apparently is opposed by the Venezuelan government, a position I assume is caused by their need for Chinese money loans.

[EFerrari]

85. This thread is about Chavez comments on the award, to be exact.

And Peace Patriot is exactly right and speaks to Chavez's point which was, in context, that the right wing in his country is hypocritical to slam China when they remained silent about the human rights abuses committed by the US in Iraq and Afghanistan.

And, Peace Patriot is a she, fyi.

[paulk]

77. you're talking a lot

but you're not saying anything

that relates to the OP, anyway...

[bherrera]

79. He does that

Writes endless posts attacking the USA, but does not discuss the subject at hand. I enjoy reading his material, it tells me what the propaganda of the day is. Similar to the right wing Fox News, they also have the propaganda excuse of the day.

[davidinalameda]

81. there are about 5 to 10 pro Chavez posters

who swarm any thread that is critical of him

they never bring anything new; just the old how evil the US is and how wonderful Chavez and his allies are

if the Soviet Union was still around, I'm sure they'd be cheering them on as well

[joshcryer]

83. This thread has been a nice exception.

[davidinalameda]

96. not really

I recommended this thread and it appears that people have come by and unrecommended it because the count stands at 0

I doubt that I was the only one to recommend it

[EFerrari]

86. Actually, it is the DUers who are students of Latin America that provide

the bulk of actual information to these lame threads, like Mr. Chavez's comments in context, in this case comparing the right wing's condemnation of China while ignoring US human rights abuses in Iraq and Afghanistan:

"Con el Gobierno yanqui no dicen nada y aplauden la invasión a Irak y a Afganistán, donde hay niños huérfanos, hombres en cárceles, racismo, etc, sólo porque el Gobierno chino haciendo uso de su independencia y soberanía progresista contra el Premio", dijo."

http://www.telesurtv.net/noticias/secciones/nota/79715-NN/chavez-se-solidariza-con-china-ante-criticas-por-retencion-del-ganador-de-nobel-de-la-paz/

That does make it a little more difficult for people who just want to swallow these hit pieces whole but you always manage it any way.

[joshcryer]

87. 404

The Nobel Committee did not "applaud the US invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan." Obama did not "invade Iraq and Afghanistan" and indeed, the Nobel Committee gave Obama the prize explicitly as a rebuke toward Bush.

[EFerrari]

90. He was talking to and about the wing nuts in his own country (edit)

who were slamming China loudly but said nothing about Iraq and Afghanistan. It's right there in the words.

ETA: I have no idea why it 404s. This is the article and I haven't found the same info in English anywhere. But this is the pivot: "criticó a la oposición por pronunciarse sobre ese tema y no por invasiones en Irak y en Afganistán que han dejado miles de civiles muertos"

= "he criticized the opposition for making pronouncements on this topic and not making them about the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan that have resulted in thousands of civilian casualties"



Chávez se solidariza con China ante críticas por retención del ganador de Nobel de la Paz

TeleSUR _ Hace: 23 horas
El presidente de Venezuela, Hugo Chávez, rechazó este domingo el comunicado emitido por la oposición de su país en que celebra el otorgamiento del Nobel de la Paz al disidente chino Liu Xiaobo, preso actualmente y en el que se exige su liberación, y aprovechó para solidarizarse con el gobierno de Hu Jintao ante las críticas recibidas tras condenar la concesión del premio.

El mandatario latinoamericano criticó la reacción de esa minoría venezolana al calificar a ese Gobierno de totalitario y que viola los derechos humanos".

"Todo ese archipiélago de partidos de extrema derecha dicen al Gobierno chino que es totalitario, que viola los derechos humanos", dijo el mandatario.

Ante esto, se solidarizó con el presidente chino Hu Jintao por las críticas de las que ha sido objetivo por rechazar el premio Nobel de la Paz otorgado al disidente.

"Vaya nuestro saludo, nuestra solidaridad al gobierno chino, ¡Viva China!", exclamó el mandatario.

Recordó que Xiaobo es "un ciudadano disidente contrarrevolucionario chino que está preso en China por violar leyes en ese país" y criticó a la oposición por pronunciarse sobre ese tema y no por invasiones en Irak y en Afganistán que han dejado miles de civiles muertos.

"Con el Gobierno yanqui no dicen nada y aplauden la invasión a Irak y a Afganistán, donde hay niños huérfanos, hombres en cárceles, racismo, etc, sólo porque el Gobierno chino haciendo uso de su independencia y soberanía progresista contra el Premio", dijo.

El jefe de Estado dijo que ese sector está demostrando falta de modestia porque aseguran que son mayoría y cuyas pretensiones de llegar nuevamente al poder venezolano les hacen actuar con aires de triunfo.

"Los escuálidos en su paroxismo del triunfo, aseguran que son ganadores en el país, yo les digo, el pueblo los espera para demostrarles que a Miraflores (Palacio de Gobierno) más nunca volverán", subrayó.

Además precisó que si la oposición regresara al poder, "las primeras cosas que harían sería romper con China, siguiendo el mandato de Washington", lo que traería como consecuencia la paralización de todos los acuerdos conjuntos con esa nación.

"Se pararían los sistemas agrícolas, los proyectos de vivienda, la fábrica de satélites con China, la tecnología militar, los créditos y préstamos a largo plazo se perderían porque ellos (oposición) entregarían a Venezuela de nuevo a los yanquis".

Añadió que ese país se ha convertido en un aliado comercial de gran importancia para Venezuela, por lo que el dignatario aseguró que mientras se mantuviera al frente del proceso que lidera, llevaría adelante la conclusión de cada uno de los proyectos que ambas naciones adelantan.

El líder venezolano insistió en los beneficios que trae la comercialización y los acuerdos en diferentes áreas con el Gobierno asiático, por lo que explicó la importancia de continuar cada uno de los procesos para lograr adelantos y modernización en la infraestructura del país andino.

Recordó que el lunes, una comisión china comenzará a trabajar en Venezuela para definir una serie de proyectos como la ampliación de empresas siderúrgicas en el país y otros adelantos tecnológicos.

El presidente venezolano se pronunció desde el municipio José Rafael Revenga, en el estado Aragua (centro).

[bherrera]

102. The Venezuelan opposition won the majority of the popular vote

It is reported the Venezuelan opposition won the majority of the popular vote in the recent elections for their Parliament. The readers are discussing in this topic the award of the Nobel Prize to the Chinese dissident, and the comments by President Chavez supporting the Chinese oligarchs who call themselves "Communist Party".

It is seen here frequently that Chavez supporters try to change the subject from the topic being discussed, when they know the government of Venezuela has a position which can not be defended. It is a common method, but it should be understood by the readers. :-)

[EFerrari]

107. I didn't change the subject, I post his remarks in context

and in the original language. :)

[Pavulon]

89. His words were clearly reported. He is just pimping for some other guys in red

he cant help it. Its all he knows. Chavez, not the poster carrying water for his comments.

[davidinalameda]

97. what a surprise

here you are defending St. Hugo

this has NOTHING to do with Iraq or Afghanistan

and not all the people who see Chavez for what he is are right wingers

[EFerrari]

108. As usual, you've added nada to the understanding of this OP.

There are plenty of people on the left that disagree with Chavez on issues and that's their perogative. I disagree with him on some issues.

But claiming he said something he didn't say is childish and what is usually offered to you in the American media.

[boppers]

114. There are those who watch Latin American issues closer than others.

While I don't appreciate the racist, chest-thumping, blustering remarks from Chavez (and Zelaya, Morales, Castro, etc.), the additional commentary and background on DU *does* help me get a better picture of what's going on, and give me alternative perspectives.

[Prometheus Bound]

94. Thank you for your very informative, highly relevant analysis.

[Nolimit]

82. Bizarre

Apparently he thinks of Liu as a counter-citizen and a dissident:

http://momento24.com/en/2010/10/10/chavez-supported-the-chinese-government-and-criticized-the-norwegian-academy/

I realize that he has done some good for Venezuela but seriously, he should have kept his opinion to himself. This does not make him sound like a democracy-loving, "stick it to the man" kind of revolutionary. More like, "¡Viva El Big Brother!"

[EFerrari]

88. Bizarre is the right word for it, his remarks were taken completely out of context

which is usually the way the American media puts their hit pieces on him together. He was actually calling out the rich wing nuts in his own country.

[Pavulon]

92. Here is the press.tv piece. You know they Iranians are on our side too. nooooo

chavez is a tool and half of his followers would shill for him if he went full pol pot down there.

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/146175.html

[HuckleB]

98. +1

[HuckleB]

99. BALONEY!

It's quite clear what Chavez said. I used to support the guy, but I'm not blind!

[EFerrari]

106. I posted his actual WORDS in their original context.

LOL

[HuckleB]

109. Nice try.

Keep laughing at your blind defense of anything you choose to become a fan of... His criticism of the US as part of his statement, does not make his statement any less vile.

I prefer to actually consider the real world.

[EFerrari]

111. LOL

[bherrera]

103. Interesting twisting of facts

He was supporting the Chinese. This he did because the Chinese lend money to Venezuela. A lot of money. As you know, the economy of Venezuela is not well, and they are borrowing a lot of money. The Venezuelan bonds are considered very high risk, and therefore Venezuela is trying to borrow money in different ways. One of these ways is to borrow money from China and offer oil in the future in return. This of course is not sustainable. Venezuela has the ability to borrow for some time, but the debt will continue to increase, and because the economy is not growing, and unemployment is increasing, Chavez is in a trap. He thinks the Chinese oligarchs are his lifesaver.

[EFerrari]

105. I didn't twist the facts in any way but you are creating fiction wholesale.

LOL

[HuckleB]

110. +1

[Marengo]

113. Did he, or did he not, characterize Liu as a dissident and counter citizen?

Chavez's attitude toward the imprisonment of Liu, an issue separate from his criticism of the opposition, is important to clarify.

[Prometheus Bound]

91. Is Liu not a dissident?

[Nolimit]

95. He is

His dissident should be celebrated as it advocates democracy through non-violence. I guess it's kind of awkward for the PRC to have the first Chinese person living in the country to receive the reward be Liu. The Chinese government has yet to learn of the Streisand effect

[woo me with science]

101. LOL!

These threads are so damned predictable.