Merkel says German multicultural society has failed

[Arrowhead2k1]

Source: BBC

Attempts to build a multicultural society in Germany have "utterly failed", Chancellor Angela Merkel says.

In a speech in Potsdam, she said the so-called "multikulti" concept - where people would "live side-by-side" happily - did not work.

Mrs Merkel's comments come amid recent outpourings of strong anti-immigrant feeling from mainstream politicians.

A recent survey showed that more than 30% of Germans believed Germany was "overrun by foreigners".

The study - by the Friedrich Ebert Foundation think-tank - also showed that roughly the same number thought that some 16 million of Germany's immigrants or people with foreign origins had come to the country for the social benefits.



Read more: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11559451

---

I don't think she's helping anything with these words by further alienating German citizens of different cultural backgrounds. What the heck are they going to do next now that they've officially declared multiculturalism an "utter failure"?

Scary times...

[marmar]

1. Yikes !!!!

nt

[gateley]

3. No kidding! nt

[EFerrari]

43. Tariq Ali recently said that this a neoliberal period

awash with xenophobia and isolationism, especially in Europe and America.

[No Elephants]

52. I don't like linking xenophobia to the word "liberal," though. If neocons are former liberals and

thinking like Merkel's is "neolibera, kinda leaves "always was" conservatives in the clear -- something along the lines of Rethugs who first began claiming Bush was really a liberal after Dummya's and Cheney's approval ratings plummeted.

Hitler was not neoliberal. Neither is Merkel--or Pat Buchanan.

I am not trying to imply any of that is Ali's fault or intent. Just saying I don't like linking the word "liberal" to something so typically right wing--even by using "neoliberal."

I do agree that we are awash in bigotry and xenophobia, but I don't know that that is a new phenomenon. Things that people prefer to keep to themselves tend to become more overt as people are forced to stop taking the supremacy of their "way of life" for granted. For example,Buchanan began outing himself as a xenophobe only relatively recently in his career. IMO, he did not become a xenophobe only relatively recently, recently, though--he just feels more threatened now than he did in his youth.

[EFerrari]

62. Neoliberalism from Wiki:

Neoliberalism is a market-driven<1> approach to economic and social policy based on neoclassical theories of economics that stresses the efficiency of private enterprise, liberalized trade and relatively open markets, and therefore seeks to maximize the role of the private business sector in determining the political and economic priorities of the state.

The term "neoliberalism" has also come into wide use in cultural studies to describe an internationally prevailing ideological paradigm that leads to social, cultural, and political practices and policies that use the language of markets, efficiency, consumer choice, transactional thinking and individual autonomy to shift risk from governments and corporations onto individuals and to extend this kind of market logic into the realm of social and affective relationships.<2>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism

[Thor_MN]

66. Reads like someone decided "Neo" means Fascist

[Threedifferentones]

83. American definition of the word liberal is new and different

Liberal in Europe still means mostly what it meant to our founding fathers, limited government and a focus on private wealth. Same root as libertarian and liberty. Here that is called conservative.

[Spider Jerusalem]

95. Liberal has a different meaning in America than it does everywhere else.

Strictly speaking, in terms of political economy, liberalism is a philosophy that emphasises capitalism and free trade along with individual liberty and is best exemplified by the thought of Thomas Hobbes and John Locke. The classically liberal tradition in politics is what's identified in America as 'libertarianism'; an American 'liberal' is what the rest of the world would call a 'social democrat'.

[MellowDem]

69. If any country outside of Europe and America had near...

the immigration levels that Europe, much less America, had, you'd see a lot of xenophobia and isolationism there, and likely more, due to less education and less time being around other groups of people. You already see plenty in countries around the world that have much smaller immigration levels.

[EFerrari]

80. Maybe a more useful comparison is America with itself.

We're seeing much more xenophobia than before immigration went flat over two years ago. So while it is a response to immigration, it's not exactly a response to what is happening right now.

[Paranoid Pessimist]

82. So, Ms. Merkel and others who say this, where's the what-do-we-do-about-it? n/t

[xchrom]

2. I think tolerating the Stooopid is what's failed.

I get that assimilation problems are different in Europe than here,
But really statements that call multiculturalism failed
Are just Dumb.

[Tempest]

4. Sounds to me

As if something that would come out of the Nazi party circa 1939.

[RKP5637]

20. Yeah, I was thinking similar when I read this, purification of the race... scary

statement she made.

[Hans Wurstus]

72. Merkel

well, it isn’t that bad over here in Germany. Merkel always had success with having no clear opinion. She is somehow completely apolitical, which worked well, as long she was in a “big coalition” with the left-winged social democrats.
After she won the election of 2009 and the SPD was kicked out of her government, a more conservative and more liberal style was expected.
(Liberal means something completely different in Europe. Liberal is a Pro-market and pro-big companies economic direction, which cuts off social transfers)
But she continued doing nothing for another year until her rating shrunk dramatically. Her party, the CDU, lost the election in the biggest German state (North Rhine-Westphalia) in May 2010 and now she fears another big loss in Baden-Wuerttemberg in March 2011. What would be a super-disaster (CDU is on power there nonstop for 57 years). A huge discussion inside her party came up. Is Merkel not conservative enough? Old party-members still mistrust her, because she is from the DDR, a woman, protestant and divorced!
Bashing the idea of multicultural society is just a signal to the right winged part of the CDU, because Merkel is fighting for her power. But it is no swing to the right in general.

[MrScorpio]

5. Germany was never really an imperial power outside of their Nazi period

The English, French, Dutch, Spanish and Americans have always had a better history of being "multi-kulti", in spite of obvious issues today, and I think that's because all of our empires and commonwealths gave different cultures a chance to settle in the imperial seats of power.

Instead of members of the empires or commonwealths, non-German cultures settling in Germany were always considered either guests or refugees.

So the Germans are responding with this "We never asked for this problem" attitude.

The only thing that can change this problem is the reinforcement of full citizenship rights for non-ethic germans natives and time.

They should learn more from the Danes and Swedes who have done a much better job of integrating different cultures into their society.

[JDPriestly]

10. Thanks to the Internet. Here is some information:

The colonies were primarily commercial and plantation regions and did not attract large numbers of German settlers.<38> The majority of German emigrants chose North America as their destination and not the colonies – of 1,085,124 emigrants between 1887 and 1906, 1,007,574 headed to the United States.<38> When the imperial government invited the 22,000 soldiers mobilized to subdue the Hereros to settle in German South-West Africa, and offered financial aid, only 5% accepted.<38>

The German colonial population numbered 5,125 in 1903, and about 23,500 in 1913.<39> The German pre-World War I colonial population consisted of 19,696 Germans in Africa and the Pacific colonies in 1913, including more than 3,000 police and soldiers, and 3,806 in Kiautschou (1910), including 2,275 navy and military staff.<39> In Africa (1913), 12,292 Germans lived in Southwest Africa, 4,107 in German East Africa and 1,643 in Kamerun.<39> In the Pacific colonies (1913) lived a total of 1,645 Germans.<39>

After World War I, the military and "undesired persons" were expelled from the German protectorates. In 1934 the former colonies were inhabited by 16,774 Germans, of whom about 12,000 lived in the former Southwest African colony.<39> Once the new owners of the colonies again permitted immigration from Germany, the numbers rose in the following years above the pre-World War I total.<39>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_colonial_empire

Actually, as the Wikipedia article points out, most Germans emigrated to the U.S. if they wanted to leave Germany. The midwest of the U.S. was heavily settled by Germans.

As one who has lived in several different countries, I will say that no matter where you go, you are expected to try to assimilate to the culture around you. That principle applies in the micro social order as well as in the wider social order. If I go to a friend's house, I have to accommodate my friend's customs and abide my friend's rules. Many of the people who have settled in Germany in recent years seem to think that they can continue to live according to the customs and rules of their home countries. It does not work that way. They are the guests and can keep their customs and rules only to a limited extent.

That's just the way life is. If I as a woman move in with my mother-in-law, I live according to my mother-in-law's culture. I don't get to impose my own. Right or wrong, that is the way it is.

[MrScorpio]

11. That pretty much demonstrates exactly how small potatoes German colonization efforts actually were

A day late and a dollar short compared to everyone else.

[chidy]

63. imperialism takes many forms

and pointing to colonialism of the last couple of century misses another important form of it: economic. the truth is that ALL rich western societies maintain their high status on the backs of billions of poor people in other parts of the globe. from the rape of African mineral wealth to make computers, to oil and gas in the Middle East, to the so-called "green revolution" in which food that feed fat westerns are grown at the expense of the locals, to the very clothes on our backs, cheaply bought thanks to slave labor in factories, dumping our toxic waste in the fishing waters of others... the wealth of the West is bought with the blood, pain and suffering of billions of (mostly brown) people who don't have gigantic militaries in which they can resist the imposition of economic forms from the outside. some of this is outlined in the books "Confessions of an Economic Hitman" and "Disaster Capitalism." there's plenty more out there too. but let's not kid ourselves about German innocence in that project; just because they weren't big colonizers decades ago doesn't mean they created the society they enjoy all by themselves and without any help (willingly given or otherwise) from some of the nations from which they receive immigrants now. and let's not forget: you can be third of fourth native born in Germany, but if you're not a "real" german from real german stock (like if your grandparents came from Turkey) you don't get full citizenship rights.

[eilen]

65. Hell, I come from real "German" stock

--my mother was born in Germany, emigrated here and her father still lives there. She and I have likely zero chance of ever getting German citizenship.

[marmar]

13. Unless, of course, you hail from a Western Christian country, then you can impose.....

...... your culture, religion and language on everyone else, n'est-ce pas?

[Speck Tater]

18. Humans are born xenophobic and have to be taught tolerence.

I know, everybody wants to believe it's the other way around, but it just isn't. We evolved in tight-knot tribes of people who were exactly like us and acted exactly like us and talked exactly like us. It is human nature to distrust anyone not exactly like us. Multi-culturalism will be an uphill battle from now until the human race goes extinct.

I dearly wish it were otherwise, and that humans could transcend their evolutionary limitations, but humans are what they are: "tribally" oriented (clique-mind), conformist, small minded, easily frightened by anything they don't understand or that is not a part of their own "tribal" culture. The "Star Trek" world were everybody gets along with everybody else is a fantasy that will never come to pass. Assimilation into a blended cultural is the only workable plan. That's the plan that has works for centuries here in the U.S. Insistence on "preserving" one's own culture from neighboring cultures leads only to trouble. Those excluded will always be distrustful of those doing the exclusion. And that does not just apply to the majority culture excluding the minority culture, but to the minority culture excluding the majority culture as well. Exclusion breeds distrust whichever way it is directed.

[Confusious]

27. nice post.

Except I kind of disagree with the star trek thing. While I don't see it in the next 200 years, within 500 years maybe.

[AngryAmish]

31. Lee Kuan Yew and Kemal Ataturk agree with you.

[Speck Tater]

40. And they both drank tea.

That doesn't make tea-drinking wrong.

Face it, every political philosophy has its faith-based myths to live by. The people on the right believe that abstinence-only sex education works and that business can regulate itself, while the folks on the left believe that all people are basically good (without noticing how that doesn't jibe with the need for regulation) and that children, left to their own devices are pure, angelic, and incapable of evil, and must, therefore, be taught how to hate, because hate is alien to their true nature.

These are all myths. Nothing is ever that simple or that black and white. Human nature has its dark side and denial will not make it go away. Human sexuality is a powerful force and wishful abstinence-only thinking and prayer won't make that go away either. The right and the left both have their own mythological blind spots based on what they WISH were true, instead of what is really true. It's to be expected. We are, after all, only human.

[boppers]

42. Nice post.

"they have myths, but we know the truth" is a common route to self-blindness.

[canetoad]

92. +1000

Good post. Wish I could rec it on its own merits.

[Psephos]

33. Good post that is well-supported by anthropology and evolutionary biology. n/t

[krabigirl]

100. Ok well then why have some of us never been like that?

[AngryAmish]

29. San Diego was founded by the Germans

[struggle4progress]

39. Actually it was founded by the minor league pitcher, Sandy Ago

[lunatica]

59. I disagree. Where is the school that immigrants go to so they can assimilate correctly?

Immigrants who come to the US are perfectly free to keep their customs. Every wave of immigrants in history first settled into neighborhoods that reflected their culture. Their children became more Americanized through living here, but I defy you to tell me that Italian families or Latino families or Asian families haven't held on to many of their original homeland customs. And I know for a fact that in California voting ballots and other state literature are printed in many languages so people who can't even speak English but who are citizens can vote and have a say in government.

There is an element of white Americans, mostly of the teabagger persuasion who rage against this tolerance, but so far it isn't a real issue among progressive and liberal thinking people.

And if you think it's only in the US, I grew up in Mexico and was never expected to assimilate and become Mexican. Never. My family was as American in its customs as any US family.

[flamingdem]

32. The Turks and other "guest workers" are treated as second class nt

[MrScorpio]

41. Exactly!

They still are today

[Hans Wurstus]

76. nonono

You cannot say that in general.

100.000 turkish companies are existing in Germany. There are famous turkish actors, directors, politicians, employers etc in Germany.

[Hans Wurstus]

73. mulikulti in Germany

Well, after I have been living in Germany for some decades, I wouldn’t underline your point of view. First of all, other European countries - Denmark, the Netherlands, Italy, Austria, France, Belgium, Sweden, ..and almost all East-European countries have extremist parties, right-winged parties even at the government - like in Hungary. In Germany they never had success and it is unthinkable a right-winged party would get into the government.

You are right, Germany has no long history of being an empire - but there is a colonial past, too. Germany had several countries occupied in Africa 100 years ago, the German emperor Wilhelm II (a grandson of Queen Victoria) always wanted to become a world-power and had some achieved a lot.
That was before Hitler was born. Germany already was a super-power in WW-I.

The big immigration into Germany began during the 1950s. Millions of Turkish and Italian people came. The big cities in Germany have 10% - 20% foreigners, seven million people with Turkish roots are living in Germany.

Yes, there were a lot of integration-problems, but it is also a story of a lot successes. One of our party-leaders, Cem Özdemir, is the son of Turkish “guestworkers” f.e.

[angstlessk]

6. 30% about the same as the nazis...early popularity?

[no_hypocrisy]

7. In the 1930s Jews were called "Auslanders" (foreigners).

Does Merkel want to revisit that policy decision?

[Hans Wurstus]

74. this is 2010 and not 1930

surely not.
Merkel is the biggest friend of Israel.

[liberation]

8. Germans did not mind to be overrun by "immigrants" when they needed to rebuild their country

with cheap labor in the 50s and 60s.

However, there is a sentiment among many Europeans now that the economy slowed down, that their social services were being overrun by immigrants (many of them illegals). Economic downturns are usually when "Divide and Conquer" works best... sigh :-(

[Hans Wurstus]

75. wrong information

Yes, some idiots are talking about being “overrun” by masses of Turks.

Unfortunately Merkel is such a liar to try to benefit from that mood.

But the facts are a completely different story.

Germany has a big problem being a country of emigration at the moment! Sine some years a lot more people are leaving Germany than coming to Germany.

In 2009 37.000 Turkish people left Germany and 26.000 Turkish people came to Germany.
These are extremely small numbers and it is a loss of 11.000 in general. Even more US-Americans are immigrating in Germany.

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/0,1518,723208,00.html

Today three ministers in Germany, Schavan, Brüderle and Von der Leyen pointed that out.
Germanys’ economy is doing quite good at the moment, more than 200.000 skilled labors (especially engineers and IT-experts) are missing.
The government is thinking about programs to attract foreign workers.

[EmilyKent]

9. Merkel is a social conservative,

who wants to get re-elected every so often.

[Hans Wurstus]

77. exactely

and for the first time since 2005 she has extremely bad ratings.
They are a disaster and she may not survive March 2011 and the elections in Baden-Wuerttemberg.

Her party, the CDU, is seen at 29 % at the moment - that is definitely not enough to get reelected!


http://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/forsa.htm

[Unvanguard]

12. That's a terrifying statement from a national leader.

Wow.

[PfcHammer]

14. Prolly just needs a shoulder rub from Shrub to decompress

[Danmel]

15. I think German leaders should refrain

From comments about racial purity.

[Davis_X_Machina]

16. Our last three German exchange students..

...were from Albanian, Iranian, and Egyptian families.

They certainly didn't think of themselves as anything other than German, although the Albanian girl was unprintable on the subject of Serbia, and thought Bill Clinton hung the moon.

[ProudDad]

17. The German version of jan brewer?

Just by saying this shit, Merkel makes things worse...

Hey, Angela, why don't you urge your fellow Germans to get real? You exploit those folks to do your dirty work and then diss them for being there?

Gee, that sounds damn familiar...

[geckosfeet]

19. So what's her plan? Send all the white people to France?

While acknowledging that this was the case, Mrs Merkel stressed that immigrants living in Germany needed to do more to integrate, including learning to speak German.

"Anyone who does not immediately speak German", she said, "is not welcome".

By speaking now, Mrs Merkel has now joined the increasingly hot debate on multiculturalism, coming down on the side of those who are uneasy about immigration, says the BBC's correspondent in Berlin, Stephen Evans.

Hmmm,,, I see.


Werrryyy intelesting.

[dixiegrrrrl]

28. What you clipped and pasted is incorrect and very misleading.

The actual quote from the article is:

While acknowledging that this was the case, Mrs Merkel stressed that immigrants living in Germany needed to do more to integrate, including learning to speak German.

"We should not be a country either which gives the impression to the outside world that those who don't speak German immediately or who were not raised speaking German are not welcome here," she said. "That would do great damage to our country"

By speaking now, Mrs Merkel has now joined the increasingly hot debate on multiculturalism, coming down on the side of those who are uneasy about immigration, says the BBC's correspondent in Berlin, Stephen Evans

[fedsron2us]

30. Lets not allow the facts get in the way of a good anti European rant

Of course, Americans are fortunate that they all live in perfect multicultural harmony and have no ghettos in their cities.

Tagging Merkel as a crypto fascist saves having to think about the uncomfortable fact that some multiculuralist thinking is not a million miles from the concept of separate development that flourished under apartheid. A true Nazi would be only to happy for different ethnic, cultural and religious groups to remain as distinct as possible, speaking different languages and preferrably living apart. It makes it so much easier to wall them in when you get to power.

The reality is that Merkel simply recognises that for a society to cohere needs at least some shared cultural values. Otherwise it will simply disintegrate under stress.

Germans know all to well what happens when that occurs.

[HankyDubs]

37. Don't let the facts get in the way of bigotry!

Of course, Americans are fortunate that they all live in perfect multicultural harmony and have no ghettos in their cities.

Strawman. No one here said the US is perfect. The term ghetto has a specific meaning in this context, please don't use it so ignorantly.

some multiculuralist thinking is not a million miles from the concept of separate development that flourished under apartheid.

So Multiculturalism = Apartheid? :spray: Actually the arguments you are making are "not a million miles from the concept of separate development that flourished under apartheid."

"The reality is that Merkel simply recognises that for a society to cohere needs at least some shared cultural values."

Sounds great. How about mutual respect and tolerance for lingusitic/cultural difference. Crazy right!?!?

Germans know all to well what happens when that occurs.

Because the Nazis were promoting multiculturalism, right? RIGHT?

Lemme tell you something, buster. After WWII there was a labor shortage in Germany. Turks in particular were invited north because they were needed to rebuild German society. I went to HS in Germany, at a German school. The kids called each other "Turk" as an insult, not all that different from when kids in the US call each other "gay."

Forced assimilation is not a positive thing. It's an ugly, nasty thing. Look up "Dawes Act" to see how it plays out in the US, or "The Stolen Generation" in Australia.

Fortunately Germans aren't monolithic and most are not as ignorant as people claiming that multiculturalism = Apartheid.

[boppers]

44. Please look into the history of the word "ghetto".

Thanks.

"How about mutual respect and tolerance for lingusitic/cultural difference."

Nope. No clit scraping, honor killing, or stoning in my neighborhood, Thanks.

[HankyDubs]

46. I know the history.

Do you? You think it supports your bigoted attitudes? Wrong!

"No clit scraping, honor killing, or stoning in my neighborhood"

Strawman, strawman, strawman. Weakness.

[boppers]

48. What is your strawman?

Yes, I know the history, it's about the slag/metal refining district, and cultural isolation.

As far as your contention that FGM, honor killing, stoning (etc.) don't happen in Germany, I'll offer a single URL:

http://www.google.com/search?q=honor+killing+germany

There are a lot more where that came from.

Some multiculturalism can be, and should be, tolerated. Other kinds should not.

[HankyDubs]

50. You don't understand

"cultural isolation."

FORCED ISOLATION. Forced isolation is evil, and so is forced assimilation. They are two sides of the very same coin.

"As far as your contention that FGM, honor killing, stoning (etc.) don't happen in Germany, I'll offer a single URL:"

So you stereotype all muslims regardless of sect or nationality, paint them all with one broad brush. Stereotypes based on hyperventilating hyperbole.

Despicable.

Murder is murder, it will be prosecuted as such. Pretending that advocates of multiculturalism support murder is a classic strawman. It is wildly dishonest and the only purpose of the strawmen you constructed is to defend a bigoted point of view.

There are countless examples of Turks and other Muslims in Germany and elsewhere who live peacefully and abide by the law. Too bad I can't google a sensationalized account of their lives, but they are the vast majority of the people you targeted with your stereotype.

I said: "How about mutual respect and tolerance for lingusitic/cultural difference."

Your response: "Nope."

[boppers]

68. Somebody stereotyped Muslims.

I was talking about cultural practices, not religion, though.

[U4ikLefty]

101. Another charming series of posts by boppers

clit-scraping...really???

[No Elephants]

54. Self delete. Dupe.

[No Elephants]

55. Fair enough, as long as all anti-American rants are based strictly on facts and always

include a recitation of the ills of every other nation, even if the subject of the OP is about only current events in America.

I criticize America, past, present and future plenty, but I don't see a reason to treat it all that much worse than Germany or England or Spain or any other nation. All have checkered pasts and imperfect presents. And it was not Obama or Biden or Hillary who said this.

[geckosfeet]

60. What I clipped was directly from the article. She said it. And you are saying she did not?

My post title, is of course my own. A bit if rhetoric to make a point.

She essentially said those that do not conform are not welcome. Not sure why you want to make the effort to pretty that up.

[Hans Wurstus]

78. that Merkel-sentence is ridiculous

of course and it won't become real

Germany has a big problem being a country of emigration at the moment! Sine some years a lot more people are leaving Germany than coming to Germany.

Merkel is just dishonest and trying to become stronger at her right side. But the government has a completely different problem to solve - Germany needs MORE foreigners.
The government is thinking about programs to attract foreign workers.

[Xipe Totec]

21. Here we go again nt

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

22. Kind of ironic isn't it,

to hear Germany complain about being overrun by foreigners when they did it twice.And used guns! :o)

[Arrowhead2k1]

24. I know, right? They should consider themselves lucky to even have a culture of their own right now.

If the Soviets had their way, they'd all be speaking Russian.

[CatholicEdHead]

23. Not according to a recent ABC (Australia) Documentary

In showing how diverse Berlin is post-Cold War.

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/360/stories/2010/3011613.htm#transcript

[unkachuck]

25. hey merky....

'...where people would "live side-by-side" happily - did not work.'

....you can think it, but you're not supposed to say it....

[hunter]

26. Societies tend to fail when they reject multiculturalism.

The multiculturalism is not the cause of the failure, the rejection of multiculturalism by some is merely a symptom of a deeper social malaise.

[Psephos]

34. Is your opinion supported by citable evidence? n/t

[Tempest]

35. Multicultural influence in Australia

http://www.skwirk.com.au/p-c_s-14_u-112_t-301_c-1016/multiculturalism-s-influence-on-society/nsw/multiculturalism-s-influence-on-society/changing-rights-and-freedoms-migrants/multiculturalism

[Psephos]

38. Two things

1. You are not the person I asked.

2. You posted an Australian children's online lesson. It advocates a viewpoint at a level designed for consumption by children, and as it is a product of an already-extant multicultural policy, it would be circular to use it to support that which supports it.

This issue is vigorously argued by those on the left and the right, but usually based on personal politics. I'm interested to know if there is a body of unfalsifiable evidence providing guidance, not political opinions. There is no other way to make an informed judgment.

Meanwhile, I'll hope that the poster of whom I asked the question will respond.

[hunter]

56. India is a multi-cultural society. The Roman empire was a multicultural society.

Australia is a multicultural society, China is (believe it or not) a multicultural society.

Japan is not, and look where they find themselves: Japan, once dynamic, is disheartened by decline

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4577907&mesg_id=4577907

I live in a multicultural city, mostly Mexican, then Filipino, white, black, and most everyone else. 40% of the people here don't speak English at home. My kids, now in college, grew up in a multicultural environment.

I grew up in white suburban English-speaking-only USA, a place reeking of racism and stagnant white privilege. I fled just as soon as I could and have now lived most of my life far away from it.

The friction of multiculturalism has it's negative aspects, but the benefits far outweigh these.

I suppose I could look for citations, but I think I'd like some college credit for that. My résumé is very strong in the biological sciences but lacking in the social sciences.

[Psephos]

93. Your response is reasonable, but it's an opinion based on a loose definition of "multicultural"

There's a chasm between the denotation and connotation of the term "multicultural." This allows almost anyone to paste pre-existing political ideas onto the concept of multiculturalism, and claim anecdotal and self-evident proof of their opinion.

The examples you cited in your headline are defective in a huge way. India is riven by its medieval caste system, which has brought vast misery and huge economic inefficiency for centuries. Only a semanticist could argue that each caste isn't its own culture, with different values, traditions, and understandings of its members relation to society. Rome corralled disparate nations and cultures under its huge umbrella, and could never discover how to cause its new minions to think of themselves as Romans first and Gauls, Visigoths, Ethiopians, what-have-you, second. It splintered and fell because in the end allegiance to Rome meant nothing, and allegiance to one's tribe or nation meant everything.

The popular connotation of multiculturalism is a politically-correct truth. In other words, it's a Sunday truth. Pious, acknowledged by all for its wisdom, given immense lip-service...but not practiced much as soon as one walks down the church stairs and leaves.

Humans are tribal by nature. Human evolution occurred under conditions that emphasized extreme loyalty to the in-group (the tribe, usually a band of under a hundred more-or-less related people), because it brought survival advantage. This blind loyalty has a counterpart - hatred of the out-group, which brought equally strong survival advantage.

Eibl-Eibesfeldt probably describes it better than anyone else in his seminal Love and Hate: A Natural History of Behavior Patterns - well worth the read. But one has literally hundreds of books and papers to choose from to understand how In-group/Out-group identification is the key to understanding human conflict and human cooperation. His book Human Ethology is the giant of the field.

http://www.amazon.com/Human-Ethology-Irenaus-Eibl-Eibesfeldt/dp/0202309703

It astonishes me that this, and other fundamental findings from evolutionary anthropology, aren't widely taught in high schools. Politics can not be understood without this essential science.

To get to your statement regarding reeking white privilege etc. in the US. I grew up in a Northern Midwestern city 65% white, 15% black, 20% Mexican. No reeking racism, and no stagnant white privilege. It's mostly a blue-collar town. Most felt like we were more alike than different, and while there were racists of all colors, there was far more importantly a sense of all belonging more or less to the same community.

Left and Right are blindly loyal to their political fellow-travelers, and hate those of the opposite stripe with vigor and viciousness. In-group/Out-group. The same effect obtains in multicultural communities or societies where assimilation is not a dominant value. By encouraging self-inflating "celebration" of one's particular cultural group but not the larger society to which one belongs and upon which one depends, we sow the seeds of strife and discord. In-group/Out-group. Blind loyalty to the first, blind hatred (or at minimum, deep suspicion) of the second.

Human nature is what it is, for specific biological reasons. Politics has no purchase on that which is written in our genes. The only sensible multicultural policy is one that delights in our cultural differences and oddities, yet imbues us with a feeling we're all part of a larger race and culture: the human race, and civilization based upon enlightenment and respect for all its members.

[Canuckistanian]

36. Merkel is a RWer.

Moreover, she's a European RWer. Which means she's roughly equivalent to today's Democratic party, policy-wise

With one big distinction - xenophobia. It's the ONE thing European RWers have mainly in common. That's their appeal to their voters - "we'll keep all those nasty foreigners out".

Luckily, Merkel and her ilk are not popular right now. In fact, her coalition government looks likely to fail fairly soon.

[EFerrari]

45. How hard would it be to find a similar quote by Raygun.

And our wingnuts have been ranting against multiculturalism forever. It's not like Americans have never heard anything like this before, is it?

[pampango]

85. European RW'er indeed: "Weak Merkel stokes xenophobia as she fights for political survival"

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/weak-merkel-stokes-xenophobia-as-she-fights-for-political-survival-2109433.html

Chancellor Angela Merkel has branded Germany's attempts to build a multicultural society an "utter failure" in an unprecedented speech designed to revive her own and her conservative party's flagging popularity and regain the initiative in an increasingly hostile public debate about immigration.

Ms Merkel, who normally scrupulously avoids courting xenophobic opinion, bluntly told a meeting of young members of her ruling Christian Democratic party that the "Multikulti" notion of people from different cultural backgrounds living happily side by side simply did not work.

Earlier, in a reference to Germany's 2.5 million Turkish immigrant population, she told delegates: "In the beginning of the Sixties, we called on foreign workers to come to Germany and now they live in our country." She added: "We kidded ourselves for a while by saying they won't stay, sometime they will be gone, but this isn't reality." Ms Merkel's remarks were both a response to a surge of anti-immigrant feeling in Germany and an attempt to counter her vulnerable position in her own party.

Ms Merkel's left-wing brand of conservatism has been attacked by the right wing of her party with some members declaring that they fear the possibility of a breakaway hard-line conservative party forming in Germany. Her failure to take the initiative on immigration has exacerbated the situation, they say.

The right wing of a conservative party is attacking with an anti-immigration message. Who could have predicted that? ;)

[Endangered Specie]

47. Old habits die hard

[Endangered Specie]

49. Sounds like she could use a backrub...

[treestar]

90. She hasn't had one in a while!

:rofl:

[cowcommander]

51. Europeans used to look down on us because we were a multicultural society

Now look how much they whine when they turn into one.

[Democat]

53. Did she propose any "solutions"?

Why do her words sound familiar?

[Hans Wurstus]

79. NO, as always Merkel never talks about solutions

She just wants to benefit from the mood at the moment.

Her words only point out that she is extremely week. Her ratings are dramatically bad, her partner the FDP is almost dead and she already lost the majority in the second chamber, the Bundesrat.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

98. In Brazil, FDP is an acronym that means "son of a whore" or "son of a bitch".

I find that extremely apropos.

[L.Torsalo]

57. Kind of strange

that the Germany I know is populated with people who live side by side in harmony. I'm talking Turks, Americans, French and Somalis, Marrocans and Nigerians, Belgians and Albanians and the list could go on (Iranians, Iraqis, Lebanese, Spaniards, Poles, Estonians...Croats, Serbs...). My Germany is a place where multi-kulti works fine. Merkel is kowtowing to the rise of the racist right in Holland and other countries. Merkel is wrong. One need only consider the history of Spain prior to the rise of the Church. The dominant culture had plenty of space for diversity. I have yet to read of Spanish Moors forcing Jews to convert or die...the Spanish Crown demanded no less than a renunciation of personal beliefs in order to be able to rule over a homogeneous society..,.Merkel is wrong, history proves the point. Frau Merkel is an utter failure as leader of the German people.

[Catherina]

58. +1 n/t

[Karenina]

64. Kurds, Portugese, Thai, Ethiopians...

I think "utter failure" may go a bit far, however pandering to this tack-to-the-right crowd is disturbing and I CAN'T BELIEVE SHE SAID THAT! :wow:

[Dappleganger]

61. It will take more generations dying off...

before this can be accomplished, more than likely. Less people from the old guard poisoning the minds of the younger people. I see that happening here in the US as well.

[XemaSab]

67. That can go the other way though

Within the next few years the last holocaust survivors will die off, as well as other people who can pass on to the young how horrible it really was.

If you only grow up with the textbook version of what happened, then you can be easily swayed by Nazi propaganda.

[DCBob]

70. and we thought America was going crazy..

this is very disturbing stuff.

[XemaSab]

71. Multiculturalism is a process and not an event

Yes, there are still hate crimes in the US, but millions of people live side-by-side with people from other parts of the world every day, and benefit from it.

[EFerrari]

81. It really is. I remember when my aunt used to refer to "the little Chinese lady"

in her Sunset neighborhood in San Francisco. That was in the 70s. Now that neighborhood is heavily Asian and the Sunset has a great Asian market district that stretches for blocks. That area used to be mostly Irish Catholic families and now it's a rainbow.

[pampango]

84. "Socialists call for 'cordon sanitaire' around Europe's far right". The left is not giving up on

a multicultural society.

http://euobserver.com/9/31054

Throwing down the gauntlet to Europe's conservative and liberal parties, some of which have in recent years become less reticent to join coalitions or alliances with nationalist and populist parties, the continent's Socialists have called for a 'cordon sanitaire' around the far-right by the mainstream.

The leadership of the Party of European Socialists, the pan-European political party that brings together all European social democratic outfits, on Friday (15 October) adopted new five-point code of conduct on how to act around extreme right parties, which have seen a sharp rise in support in many countries in the wake of the economic crisis.

"Regarding this threat ... all European parties should sign up to our plan to refuse to work with the extreme-right," the party's president and former Danish prime minister Poul Nyrup Rasmussen.

Specifically, the party is calling on mainstream left, right and centre parties to reject any ruling coalitions, electoral alliances or any "implicit support" with far-right parties and to isolate members who break the cordon sanitaire.

[fascisthunter]

87. NOR should anyone give up and listen to any bigots

THEY are the ones ctreating division in the world. We need tolerance, not this politically expedient garbage to garner her extreme right votes!

[fascisthunter]

86. No Merkel... you are THE Failure Here

it's a failure when you want to stop trying... and that's what you are doing here. I don't think you had any intention of trying.

Oh, I am second generation with family in Germany, and she sure as hell does not reflect the attitudes of them nor their Turkish friends. She's another right wing xenophobe the World should do without.

[MilesColtrane]

88. "The study...also showed that roughly (30%) thought that...

some 16 million of Germany's immigrants or people with foreign origins had come to the country for the social benefits."

What's the German word for "teabagger"?

When I read articles like this I think to myself that maybe it's not so bad that we haven't shut down all of our military bases in Germany.

[SoCalDem]

91. We're not the only counrty with a "dirty-thirty"

The frustrating thing here is that apparently SEVENTY percent does NOT think that way.

[Hans Wurstus]

97. german word for Teabagger

TEEBEUTLER

[treestar]

89. Have a look-see over here in the USA

Yes, it does "work" if you want it do.

The Germans really have to get over it. There are no pure cultures any more. That is not a bad thing.

[lonestarnot]

94. Wow. Back at the Nazi stuff already.

[Bragi]

96. I see a lot of ignorance being expressed here

Actually, what I see are a lot of people people judging Merkel's statements based on biases from WW2, and a mistaken belief that she is opposing the kind of "melting pot" socialization and integration that has traditionally taken place in the U.S and elsehwre in the Western democracies

She is not doing that.

What Merkel is talking about is that there is now an entire class of people in Germany who, unfortunately, have no intention of joining German society. They are mostly Muslims from Turkey initially brought in in the ill-advised "guest worker" program. They live separate from the rest of the German community, they don't speak the language or intend to, and they are importing into Germany the most backward and objectionable features and values of tribal and clan life in Turkey (like mandatory veiling of women, arranged forced marriages, limited education for girls and generally, extreme religiosity, violent enforcement of sharia law within their community, extreme homophobia, etc.)

In short, she isn't opposing traditional immigrant populations and the idea of integration. She is reacting to the new type of immigrant who rejects the liberal democratic values of the German community as a whole.

What is happening politically right now is that most Europeans now know there is a problem here. Unfortunately, the progressive left in Europe appears unable to come to grips with the problem, prefers to pretend that it isn't happening, and that any anxiety about what is happening is just a form of racism and xenophobia. Which is why the right wing -- which has no real problem exploiting anxiety and xenophobia -- is gaining ground throughout much of Europe.

Personally, I wish the progressive left in Europe would address this matter honestly, and address the anxiety of the public openly, in a realistic and humane and liberal democratic way. Instead, they are spending their time mostly denying reality and becoming, in consequence, irrelevant to the debate.

[ProgressiveMajority]

99. Yes. The ignorance here isn't surprising and the far right would prefer these issues not be adressed

Some of the posts here are kind of astounding, as if Merkel were proposing a new holocaust.

In reality the far right prefers moderates and liberals not address the integration problems some immigrant groups have had. Day to day people can tell a percentage of Turks and a few others have had trouble integrating. When moderates and liberals fail to acknowledge any problems with multi-culturalism then voters go to the one group that does, the far right, and thats the way the far right likes it. The opinion most are expressing here fits right in with what the far right prefers to hear from the left.

Also some immigrant groups have integrated extrenely well, Vietnamese immigrants are actually refered to as the vietnamese wonder.