US Promises Overwhelming Response to Iraq Killings

[NNN0LHI]

Another dose of Shock & Awe?

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20040401/ts_nm/iraq_dc&cid=564&ncid=1480

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - U.S. troops on Thursday promised an "overwhelming" response to brutal killings in the Iraqi town of Falluja and vowed to hunt down those who shot, burned and mutilated four American contractors.


Marines took positions on the outskirts of the restive town west of Baghdad where the contractors were ambushed by insurgents on Wednesday and then set on by a crowd.


"Coalition forces will respond," the U.S. army's deputy director of operations Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt told a news conference. "They are coming back and they are going to hunt down the people responsible for this bestial act.


"It will be at a time and a place of our choosing. It will be methodical, it will be precise and it will be overwhelming."

more

[arcane1]

1. dammit, only AMERICANS can shoot, burn and mutilate!

didn't the Iraqis get the memo? :shrug:

[0007]

10. No, but I bet Ahman Chalabi is giving his $0.02 cent worth

......now the scare tactics begin - with a 50 to one revenge factor, you can bet on it!

[MUAD_DIB]

22. The Germans were good at reprisal killing, and it didn't

win them any more friends. It just made the resistance stronger.

[saigon68]

69. It was Lidice

And a lot of Nazi's were tried as WAR CRIMINALS and were HANGED

[phatkatt]

74. Also Oradour-sur-Glane in France

http://www.oradour.info/

[saigon68]

79. Thank you

I had not ever heard of this.

Un emplacement de grand intérêt

[VolcanoJen]

86. Dear God.

I had never before heard of Oradour, phatkatt. That webpage is absolutely chilling. I'm wiping tears away as I type this... the horror of war never ceases to devastate me.

Thank you for bringing it to our attention, and for proving a very, very crucial point in this thread.

[lordwhorfin]

123. The Patriot

Yes, that nice Mr. Gibson used the real incident at Oradour-sur-Glane in *fictional* form in his movie to show how eeeeeevil the Brits were. Unlike the Nazis that his daddy loves so well . . .

[BiggJawn]

137. Yes, Lidice. Razed in reprisal for Heydrich's assasination.

All the men killed, children either "fostered out" or gassed, the women sent to the camps, and the town utterly destroyed, not ONE brick left on top of another, and complete destruction even to the point of destroying the cemetary in the churchyard.

I'm afraid Bremer and Dirty Sanchez are gonna pull-out all the coalition personell and then blot out the sun with B-2's and B-52's.

Watch for Bremer to announce the new policy of 10 Iraqis forfeiting their lives for every American soldier killed.

[Tommy_Douglas]

142. They already have an unofficial "policy"

Of around 20-25 dead Iraqis for every American... Or I'm sure that's likely what the numbers would pan out to around now...

[saigon68]

120. Like this

http://www.iraqwar.ru/show_image.php?id=1131&thumb=1

Not for the faint of heart.

[htuttle]

2. US Promises War Crimes in Response to Falluja Killings

Collective punishment of civilian populations is still illegal under the Geneva Convention.

[Jack The Tab]

3. "We will avenge the deaths of the mercenaries we hired to fight you.."

No disrespect to the deaths of the mercenaries, but I can't stand how they keep calling them "contractors"

[saigon68]

80. Mercenaries

Like an hour glass the sand ran out.

[wryter2000]

4. OMG

I wish this were an April Fools.

[saigon68]

154. Here they are

[qb]

5. Welcome to the new Israel-Palestine conflict

Where escalation is the name of the game.

[treepig]

6. hasn't the place, namely falluja, already been determined?

so what does the army guy mean when he says "it will be at a place of our choosing?"

i just hope that my town is not chosen to be that place, scary!!

[VolcanoJen]

7. Kucinich was just on CNN

He said, in response to Crowley's wondering Kucinich is suggesting the Falluja atrocity should go unresponded-to:

"You know, we're already present there. We can't invade Iraq again. We can't escalate the violence any more. We need to deescalate the violence, and stabilize Iraq with UN peacekeepers."

Spot ON, Dennis.

[goodhue]

11. excellent

making sense as always

[willat]

23. I Guess He...

Didn't learn anything from Mogadishu. What's that they say about those that fail to learn from history...

[Ripley]

31. What did you learn about that?

I guess you think it was Clinton's fault huh?

[willat]

41. When we turned tail

and ran out of Somalia, Bin Laden refered to it to rally his troops. He made specific comments about the U.S. pulling out after losing a mere 18 people. He could encourage more attacks because of that.

I don't know who was at fault, but we know it was the wrong thing to do and we shouldn't make the same mistake. I'm sure that the people responsible for the attack falluja are hoping for the same response. I'm hoping they get something different this time.

[bemildred]

47. Sir, it is ridiculous to say that we should continue

a stupid policy because otherwise the enemy will think
we are chicken, which is what that argument boils down to.
The correct approach is to not get into these follies in
a casual manner when there is no compelling national interest
at stake. One then avoids looking stupid and vacillating,
and avoids comitting war crimes, and avoids bankrupting ones
government, as well.

[willat]

55. Off the Point

I'm not saying whether we should be there or not, that is moot. For the reasons already posted, it would be unwise to let them get away with it.

[Ripley]

57. But isn't Bush getting away with killing thousands of

civilian Iraqi's?? I guess that's wise, cause he is such a humanifuckingtarian in the end. :puke:

[bemildred]

58. On the contrary, it would be stupid to try to do anything about it.

You are confused if you think retaliation will prevent it
from happening again.

[bemildred]

66. Whether we should be there or not is not moot, Sir.

It is the fundamental question, the issue from which all other
issues in this folly flow. If the answer is that we should not
be there - and I maintain that that is the answer - then the correct
action is to get the fuck out forthwith, and all other actions not
conducive to the aim are simply more folly.

[willat]

70. Sorry

But I must disagree, sir. We are there. You advocate making another mistake that will only make things worse. I don't want to keep going back and forth stating the same thing over and over. You want to look at it as the big picture. I'm saying that it doesn't matter why we are there or if we should be. We have to not make the same mistake that was made in Somalia.

[bemildred]

96. I advocate doing the only correct thing.

It is you who advocate continuing the original mistake.
If one catches the clap through unprotected sex, the solution
it not to continue having unprotected sex in the hope that it
will make the clap go away.

[Aidoneus]

81. "it would be unwise to let them get away with it"

You know, I read the exact same phrase a few days in a comminique from one of the movements based in al-Fallujah, except they were referring to something a little different. Funny how that works out..

At least you're starting to think like them. Knowing an opponent's mind is the most sure way to best them in the end (provided there is the ability, which in this case there is not), though I'd say they have a bit of a head start on that matter..

[0007]

106. I Think the Iraq feels the same way about their deaths, rapes

and tragedies, 'he?

I think it would be wise to cut the loses and get the fuck outta there as fast as our tails can move.

[VolcanoJen]

108. Yes, it's so terribly *moot.*

It must be so convenient to be all "rah-rah-rah" about this bullshit war before we learned of its consequences, to accuse other Americans of hating America, and her soldiers, and then to wash one's hands of it after-the-fact, to say "Well, it's moot why we're there. It doesn't matter."

Spoken like a man who finds it impossible to reconcile his pre-war thoughts with his thoughts today. I feel sorry for you, for all the wrong reasons.

Nice try, willat. You'll find it difficult to pull the wool over our eyes with your increasingly ludicrous arguments around here.

[willat]

126. Ah, but...

You have completely missed my point.

[0007]

141. Duh!

[Name removed]

84. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[willat]

88. Hey

Now there is a great response. How can I possibly argue? I have to go over there and fight to have an opinion, but you don't. Well, I guess you win. I guess you have to be a soldier to voice your opinion if it is like mine. Stupid me, I thought I had as much right as anyone else.

Wow, you really got me there!

[The_Casual_Observer]

90. Wow!

Wow Wow Wow!

Wow!

[Mari333]

93. Try being a soldiers mom and yes, you go there right now

and take my kids place. an upsurge of violence and escalating it would only hurt the soldiers now
You send your kid, right now. Demand your son or daughter enlist, or you go do it.
Right now.
Go on.
Dont make statements about what can harm my kid unless you intend to put yourself in harms way.
and in the meantime, we shouldnt be there in the first place.
http://www.bringthemhomenow.com

[willat]

121. Sure

Why, did your kid get drafted or something? He's not there by his own free will?
I'll remind you that your kid (and the rest of our armed forces)is defending all of our right to speak our opinion, so I will continue to do so despite your attempt to revoke my rights. Rest assured, if my child, myself, or anyone else decides to enlist, it won't be because Mari333 demanded they do so in order to have the right to speak their mind. You should check out a little document known as the Constitution.

[VolcanoJen]

130. The "civilian mercenaries" were certainly there of their own free will.

You know, the "civilians" who you seem so outraged about that you exhibit disgust and shame and guilt because photographs that you can't handle of their corpses have been posted in this thread. Guess it's their own damn fault, using your twisted sense of logic and righteousness. Truly, your "message" becomes more delusional every time you post.

I did say I was finished with trying to sway you, but I guess I lied. You don't seem to mind the liars who put us into this mess (you know, the mess that you think is now "moot" and "doesn't matter,") so I guess I'll just go ahead and post again.

You've obviously never worn the uniform, and prefer to be an armchair war quarterback. I don't blame you; it's far more comfy and easy to feel righteous when you've sacrificed nothing. You're not unlike your heroes, Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz... You've also obviously never been the parent or loved one of a soldier who is forced into the depths of hell because of a lie.

Pick on Mari333 and you will earn the wrath of many, many DUers, myself included. It is a pity that you are more concerned about the pain of the Iraqi people who you are so desperate to "liberate" (they're incredibly grateful for all you've personally done, willat, have you noticed?) than the pain of Mari333 and your fellow Americans.

Why do you hate Americans so much?

[Zomby Woof]

135. more strawmen than a cornfield in Iowa

Surely you can do better than the tired canard that the soldiers are in Iraq "defending our freedoms". No, they are defending Halliburton's freedoms. PNAC's freedoms. Chevron's freedoms. But not yours or mine. With that damn "Patriot Act" and the endless piss-stream of propaganda oozing out of our TV sets and newspapers, it is we, the people at home, fighting for free speech.

Does this mean I denigrate their right to serve, or to impugn the honor they bear? No. Who I do denigrate is Bush, Rumsfeld, Powell, Rice, Cheney, Wolfowitz, and the uncounted others in the regime who sent those honorable soldiers over to do their dirtiest of dirty work. Rich chickenhawks - most of 'em - who play suckers like you for fools with trite apple-pie clichés about "freedom" and "dying for you and me".

The Old Lie: Dulce Et Decorum Est Pro Patria Mori. :nuke:

[saigon68]

155. Bye now

[agincourt]

95. If we dumped a load,

of chemical weapons on Mogadishu or simply shelled the place to the ground, then they'd take another angle like we are Nazis to Islam or something like that. Terrorists are propagandists who will twist any situation around to suit their agenda. If we made a stronger response they would use that to recruit. If we stayed in Somalia longer they would use that to recruit. I'd listen more to the common people over there, than the terrorists about situations like this. Terrorists twist things around to suit their advantage, sort of like "conservatives".

[MrTriumph]

97. And exactly who do we strike?

Do we hit those who attacked the 2 vehicles, the persons that threw gas on the vehicles, the persons that set fire to them, and the hundreds of people that came out into the street? I agree this was a horrible event, but who do you target?

[lordwhorfin]

127. Nonsense

In Mogadishu, over 1000 Somalis had already been killed on the day in question on which we lost the Black Hawks. So how could we have 'responded'?

Clinton had to deal with massive hostility from GOPiggies here in the US over the mission, and was under pressure from the very loons screaming for reprisals now to get out of Somalia, a poisoned chalice that Daddy Bush left for Clinton to sup.

Do you really think DU readers don't know these things?

[keithyboy]

67. My Grandma used to say:"What goes around comes around."

I guess the Bible would say, "Whatsoever a man soweth that shall he also reap."

[willat]

92. Indeed! (NT)copyright

[arcane1]

35. hmm... what did YOU learn from Mogadishu?

:shrug:

[NNN0LHI]

46. What did we learn in 1983 when Reagan got 241 Marines blown up in Beirut?

That was a decade before Mogadishu. On 23 October 1983, a truck loaded with explosives crashed through the security perimeter of the United States Marine Corps Barracks in Beirut, Lebanon. In the explosion that followed, 241 U.S. Military personnel were killed and 80 seriously wounded. Soon afterwards Reagan pulled the American troops out of Beirut.

Don

[Aidoneus]

68. That was one of the few decent things Reagan ever did

Of course, it wasn't the end of it. A year or two later, the CIA carried a massive terrorist attack in Beirut--a carbomb designed to assassinate Sayyid Mohammed Husayn Fadlallah, but instead martyred dozens of innocent people, mostly teen girls and women. This was after the USS New Jersey was lobbing Buick-sized bombs on Lebanese cities.

[BiggJawn]

145. Exactly.

I mean, what are we gonna do? pull everybody out and RE-INVADE the place?

Don't answer that....

[Sandpiper]

8. Guess it's time to kill some more innocent people

To punish our subjects for their disloyalty.

[willat]

25. Hope not!

They better make sure that they punish those that did this, not the innocent people who just happen to live in the area. That would be almost (but not quite) as bad as doing nothing at all.

[Ripley]

32. How will they know for sure who did it?

Are they giving trials to those in Gitmo nowadays? You don't think any "innocent" people have been arrested or murdered there?

[willat]

36. Hard to say

It's really impossible to say without more info, or a look at the evidence.

[sendero]

51. And just exactly...

... how do you propose they do that?

edited: unnecessarily harsh language removed :)

[VolcanoJen]

76. The murder of innocents is "not quite as bad" as doing nothing??

That absolutely turns my stomach.

[willat]

91. Well

Unfortunatly, it is true.

[VolcanoJen]

94. Please explain your usage of the word "unfortunatly" (sic)

In context, I'm baffled by your feelings on this issue.

So, will you feel better about the situation if dozens, maybe hundreds, of innocent Iraqis who had nothing to do with the brutal attack pay with their lives? Is that what you mean by "unfortunate"? You're baffling me.

How in hell does that solve anything, willat? How on earth does violence stop violence? If more die, how does that avenge the deaths of those who are already dead? Shock-and-awe didn't work the first time around, and it's just not going to work now.

As an aside, where were the 4,000 Marines who are stationed in and around Fallujah when the events occurred? Where were they immediately thereafter? Where were they in the hours that followed? Why were the bodies allowed to hang on the bridge until nightfall?

[willat]

100. What I mean is

that going in there and killing people we think are responsible, but are not still sends a message to the terrorists that we are not going to take it, whereas not responding sends the message that they can go ahead and kill without any consequences.

Now, I am NOT saying we should do this at all. It could also be argued that this is exactly what the terrorists did. They knew they were attacking civilians, not soldiers.

[VolcanoJen]

101. Except for one thing.

Remember, going into Iraq in the first place was the Administration's cutesy way of telling the non-existent terrorists in Iraq that "we are not going to take it."

One year later: 600 dead US soldiers, thousands gravely wounded, even more thousands of innocent Iraqis dead, dead, dead... why aren't the terrorists getting our message? Why aren't the terrorists being rational?

If the Administration had told me in the days before our illegal and immoral invasion of the harmless state of Iraq that Saddam Hussein possessed the capacity to kill 600 Americans, I would have laughed in their faces. Oh, wait, they did say that... and I did laugh.

How's that for a self-fulfilling prophecy? When will this Administration abandon their cold-war view of the modern world around them?

And although I am as horrified as you are by the events yesterday in Fallujah, you can't call people who attack an occupying force (and yes, these civilians were part of that force) terrorists. What they did is terrifying, but that does not make them terrorists.

And I'll say one more thing, willat, before hanging this up, because you seem like a lost cause to me. You know what I would find truly offensive, outrageous, disturbing and disgusting?

Photographs of flag-draped coffins arriving at Dover Air Force Base.

[willat]

119. I call them terrorists

but I don't know that for sure yet. We know that terrorists from all over the region have come to Iraq to make a stand. A democratic government there would be a terrible blow. I just figure if you are an Iraqi that is in worse shape because Saddam is gone (and attacking Americans), you are kind of like a gagster that was in worse shape because Al Capone is gone. In other words, up to no good anyway.

Anyway, you are straying quite a bit away from my original point, so I'll leave it at that. I'll take your "lost cause" poke as a compliment.

[saigon68]

122. No they are Resistance Fighters

The Chimpanzee and his Army invaded their country.

[willat]

125. Oh

that's right, the romantic "resistance fighters". Sure.

[Just Me]

9. "It will be methodical, it will be precise and it will be overwhelming."

It will likely be mass killing.

God,...all this violence and death just makes me so damned sad.

[saigon68]

20. These generals need to be the Dock next to Slobodan Milosevich

To the Hague with them, no cushy retirement jobs at Boeing, Northrup etc.

[jus_the_facts]

62. did you happen to see these two documentaries on Frontline?

....in one of these there was an interview with a now retired Gen. who said all their stratagies were thrown out by Rummy and their own plans were used instead...not a quote but that was the gist of what he was sayin'...they're just followin' PNAC orders....fwiw.

The Invasion of Iraq...may be in this one....
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/invasion/


Beyond Bagdad....but might have been this...both are worth the time to watch or read the transcripts

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/programs/categories/1.html

[Ilsa]

75. Excellent links...

Frontline produced great programming on the lead-up and the war.

[jus_the_facts]

82. thank you.....those two shows were extremely indepth....

......I'm always amazed by their analysis and reporting...and that site is quite informative on lots of other pertinent issues as well!! :hi:

[Just Me]

65. They seem so self-centered and self-indulged that they are BLIND,...

,...to how their behavior is as fuel is to fire.

Their indulgence and the escalation of violence makes me feel so sad. Have they no common sense when it comes to the human elements in this life? Are they so goddamned self-involved that someone should slap them into a healthy and balanced humility?

I am really struggling with what is necessary to wake such closed and greedy minds to the rest of humanity. I am trying to overcome my sense of complete astonishment and shock that these people are ruling this country.

[0007]

This is not the way to win hearts and minds - ask the Brits of the 1920's

Why can't the U.S. figure it out? General junior has got to know he's booking a loser at our expense.

[tinymontgomery]

77. Ask the Brits about the years around

1775-1776!!!!

[0007]

139. History is something this cabal is unaware of

[Barrett808]

43. I assume the opposite of whatever these delusional cranks say, so...

"It will be hare-brained, it will be indiscriminate, and it will be impotent."

[WhereIsMyFreedom]

151. Hey, that sounds like everything this administration does (nt)

nt

[orwell]

12. Yay!

More liberation... :eyes:

O

[thebeaglehaslanded]

13. All because of Chimpy's lies

If it hadn't been for the lies from Chimpy and the Chumps, none of this would have happened. Let us not forget who is truly responsible for this brutality.

[Barrett808]

14. They might try to wall off Fallujah

That's tried and proven.

[damnraddem]

15. April fool!

Anything that Kimmitt claims must be a joke.

[pinto]

16. seriously, I wonder how they'll determine who's responsible? n/t

[Zhade]

87. They won't even try. It's called "collective punishment".

NT!

[ithacan]

17. everything they do just makes things worse and worse

this kind of move will ensure that there will NOT be any stability in Iraq as long as US military forces are there.

To bad it's going to be innocent Iraqis who once again pay the price for criminal US policies...

First they paid for US support for Saddam during the 1980s, for the US pushing Saddam to continue his war against Iran

Then they paid for US attacks during the Gulf War

Then they paid for US sanctions against Iraqi civilians

Then they paid for US attacks during the Bush war last year

And now they have to pay for Bush's incompetence

[Journeyman]

18. Sounds like the destruction of Lidice redux. . .

no text necessary for those who remember the wake of Reinhard Heydrich's death.

[saigon68]

Dante's Inferno One of the Mercenaries

[willat]

29. That's pretty offensive

You should be ashamed for posting that.

[Ripley]

30. Maybe he should have put a disclaimer, but...

Why should he be ashamed for showing the true horror of war? Especially since he is a vet who's been there done that. Have you?

[willat]

34. Because

That poor man has a family and he should show a little respect, ESPECIALLY if he's been there done that.

[Ripley]

39. How is it disrespectful to show a dead arm from war?

You must not ever watch the History channel or read books. Lots of dead guys in war are shown. It is not just some "poor man with a family"...he is a casualty. A consequence of America invading Iraq. Cause...effect.

[saigon68]

40. The true cost

Here it is for the person who is offended, does this offend you?

IT OFFENDS THE HELL OUT OF ME !!!!!





Melody Roop, center, the mother of U.S. Marine Cpl. Andrew D. Brownfield, embraces the U.S. flag that draped her son's coffin Monday, March 29, 2004, at Holy Cross Cemetery in Akron, Ohio. Brownfield died March 18 in a mortar attack at an air base northwest of Baghdad. (AP Photo/ Haraz Ghanbari

[Ripley]

44. Willat is offended, not me.

I'm just sickened by the whole damn thing. Frankly the media should have shown civilian Iraqi's burned up too. Maybe then the warmongers here would feel a little sympathy for the poor Iraqi's not just the poor mercenaries.

[saigon68]

52. I know Ripley it was mean for him/her

I too am sickened by all of it.

They march off to war in their pretty uniforms, the music plays, the flags (Many now) fly.

And then lo and behold some of them will have to scrape up their friends brains and dump them into a bodybag.

[saigon68]

33. This isn't kindergarden

Maybe the couple of pics held up by Bremer of Husseins sons with their brains hanging out, might be more soothing, after all Paul (I'm upper Crust) Bremer said he was glad they were gone.

[Ripley]

38. You know what I can't stand.

Is the line "how do you think these four men's families feel if they see those images." For one thing I'm sure they were notified earlier and had time to turn off the news before seeing them. Secondly, why should the rest of the millions of Americans paying for this war be shielded from the bad pictures to protect a handful of people? Granted, it would not be apopriate to show a burned up fireman on the front page...but this is war and War is Hell, not Heck!

[willat]

49. Give it some time

I guess it's just that the guys haven't even had a funeral yet, unlike guys on The History Channel that have been dead for many years. It's just cold and disrespectful.

[mmm]

61. We are here to learn the truth. Now. Not ten years from now.

We need to discern the whole truth at all times.
Nothing will be gained by turning away or making believe.
These photos may be too much for the evening news (and then again,
maybe not), but they are essential viewing for this forum.

[VolcanoJen]

72. Saigon68, that photo was horrific, but I am not offended.

I am absolutely offended by your attempts at "nannying" the Democratic Underground Community, though, willat. We are condemned to repeat history when we refuse to acknowledge it.

Some of us grown-ups can handle the photographs of atrocities in Iraq, those committed by Americans as well as those committed by Iraqis.

It is long past time to speak the truth about this illegal, immoral war.

[saigon68]

98. sorry for nannying

I thought I was nagging--but its been a long day

The country is starting to see it for--- what its worth (absolutely nothing)

ie: War what is it good for?---- absolutely nothing (Edwin Starr 1970)



Thanks Jen.

[leftchick]

103. Jen meant that for willat saigon....

"I am absolutely offended by your attempts at "nannying" the Democratic Underground Community, though, willat."

No one would call you a nanny! :)

[VolcanoJen]

104. No, no, no Saigon. You were not nannying!

Please re-read my post... I berated willat for attempting to shield us, nanny us, make us turn our faces from history as it happens.

You should not be ashamed for posting that photo, which I had not seen yet, and which touched my soul. You should be commended, because you are a speaker of truth.

I'm so very sorry for the confusion in my post. Please forgive me... it's hard to be rational and make clear-headed posts when I'm completely pissed off, disgusted, and hopeless. :-(

[saigon68]

113. No problem Jen LC and all the rest

Its been a long day ----- a turning point in the WAR.

Yesterday the gloves came off and the fight began in earnest.

Despite what President Cheney and his clueless Sock-puppet say the Iraqis have no interest in democracy as we know it and certainly no interest in our being there. This has become very clear in the last 24 Hours.

Like wise all of those swaggering desert camo flak vest wearers in blue jeans with their M-16 A4 knockoffs, have been exposed as a Mercenary army. They have a face and a name now. I for one never knew who they were. We were told they were State Dept Employees. Now we know they are mercenaries, hired by a number of black ops companies. They are now front and center and will be viewed with suspicion.

That they were there to deliver food in 2 small cars wearing flak jackets carrying their machine guns is ludicrous. They are contact Thugs who shoot first and ask questions later.

These are extraordinary times.

[leftchick]

128. ABC news did a warm and fuzzy story about them....

They said they were all retired special forces and they showed photos of them with their families. Interviewed a mom holding one's photo. They never mentioned what exactly they were doing except they were hired as security. Even without all of the information you have so generously shared saigon, I could have figured out who they actually were. Perhaps many more Americans will awaken to the facts sooner. Time is running out.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

56. Sorry, but some of the families of the American dead in Iraq...

...discovered their loss from television. The military has not been very good at notifying the next of kin.

Otherwise, I agree with everything you've said.

[Ripley]

60. Well, I am sorry for that.

Altho this is not military folks here. The contractor in NC had it on their website pretty fast, so one would think they contacted the relatives. I really am sorry if they had to see it and know it could have been their husband, but that's not enough justification to keep the rest of the world from seeing the truth.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

63. I agree 100%...if more Americans knew exactly what's going on...

...in Iraq, and had access to the photos of ALL of the dead and wounded to include the Iraqis, I doubt there would be much support for the NeoCon Junta's adventurism.

[leftchick]

48. why, it is the reality of chimpy*s war...

Amurika needs to see the death and destruction brought to the world by the aWol* ass in chief....

[lapfog_1]

83. History

I suspect many here won't know what you are talking about.

I doubt the US will simply pull 100's of women and children into
a field and shoot them, but a "heavy response" won't be pretty
and won't win the hearts and minds of those we wanted to "give
freedom".

Those who do not understand history are doomed to repeat it.

[Journeyman]

99. Agreed, lapfog_1. . .

Most won't understand the reference, and I've no expectation our military will take the heavy handed approach the SS did in those dark days. My reference -- and on reflection, I should have made this more plain -- was to the absurdity of Bremer and the generals assuring us they would seek vengeance against the guilty parties for acts which appeared to be the work of a mob. Will they hold responsible and exact retribution from the 10-year-old boy who put his foot on the head of a crisp corpse and directly challenged George Bush? Or will their vengeance be plied from the dozens of bystanders, who did not participate but by their presence and through their cheers contributed to the blood-thirsty atmosphere? It was this mindless promise of retribution and heavy-handed vengeance which inspired my allusion, and not any expectation to actually see such barbarity transpire.

And in truth, if most reading this thread had understood the allusion, there would have been far more criticism of my unfounded and irresponsible slander of our soldiers than there was on saigon68's posting of that grisly photo.

And your quote is correct: Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it. Unfortunately, there's a corollary: Those who do know history are doomed to watching reruns.

Eadem, sed aliter. Schopenhauer explains: The same things differently. History’s motto.

[AG78]

19. Can't we just end it?

Where the hell is that 6 mile wide asteroid? Can't it just collide with us already?

Let's just put some nukes in each country, and just let them go off at the same time.

Either way would be far easier then just killing each other slowly. This attack brings this attack, this war leads to this war, that conflict needs to be resolved with this conflict. We're all going to kill each other eventually anyway. Just do it quickly. I'm tired of all the nickle-and-dime stuff. A few hundred here, a few thousand there. Instead of going out quietly, lets go out with a big bang. Make sure some other living being can see us blow away our own planet from a distant galaxy one day.

[FlemingsGhost]

21. "Operation Iraqi Freedom," at its finest.

Thank God Saddam is gone. Liberty for all...

[AwareOne]

24. Yeah! We should invade their country, kill thousands of them

overthrow their government, install our own puppet regime, rob all their natural resources and,...oh, wait, I guess we already did all that. Never mind.

[ixion]

26. violence solves nothing

I've said that all along and I will continue to stand by it. The more the US retaliates, the more people will die needlessly.

This is certainly one of the most, if not the, darkest period in American History.

[Ripley]

27. Wow, and only this morning Duers were talking "hypotheticals"

on this very subject.

They can't drop bombs, too many civilians killed. So does that mean they'll just go door to door and round up all the men and drag them off? I'd be really shocked if they go in there now. They will be met with huge resistance and no doubt there will be a high casualty count on both sides. Not good for Smirky to have transfer tube numbers rise at this point. But then again, he probably thinks well, better now than early fall. Like it will be better then.

[madrchsod]

28. do you think that

the guys are planting explosives as we speak? or are they all hiding in fear of the us army? how many people are going to be killed to "avenge" the death of some mercenaries? 200,000 people,it`s going to take awhile to track down the killers

[saigon68]

37. They are doing what Charlie did

They are "melting" away. When general Blood and Guts rolls into town they will be long gone.

Only to reappear some day with their guns, their gasoline bombs, their matches and their shovels and ropes, and shoot, burn, drag and string up their tormenters.

[0007]

109. ...you got it! chairlie is coming back in different time and country

with a different name. But with the same game.

[daleo]

42. What is the punishment for burning or mutilating a corpse?

There may be an argument for punishing the actual killers (although it is a de facto state of war, so this strains logic somewhat), but most of the people who were caught on film did no killing. I fear that the response may be to simply 'hunt down' those on the video and treat them as if they were killers, rather than bystanders, albeit bystanders who were in sympathy with the event, some of whom mutilated the corpses.

It sounds like this may escalate into a sort of blood feud between the marines and the people of the city. I suspect that Bremer is taking this quite personally, as this corporation also supplies his bodyguards. This may have brought the reality of death in war too close for his comfort.

Bush's war spirals into greater madness each day, just like Viet Nam did.

[saigon68]

45. Of Course Its Iraq-Nam

A place where life is Harsh, Brutish and Short.

A place where the Grim Reaper stalks

The Innocent, the Guilty, the Careless and the Unlucky

[lapfog_1]

50. Yup - we need to "nuke em till they glow"

Playing right into the insurrgents and jihadists hands again.

We reprise, they decide (to radicalize).

It's Israel and the west bank and gaza all over.

[saigon68]

54. Where pray tell did you come from?

A hint: use the spell check

[Media_Lies_Daily]

59. Don't confuse him, he's on a roll.

[lapfog_1]

78. On a roll

It was sarcasm. jeez.

And a heavy response by our armed forces will only further alienate
the Iraqi civilians. More young Iraqi men will join with the
resistance, more bombings and killings, more "responses" from our
military... and the cycle never stops.

Sorry, I tend to be sarcastic and it just doesn't carry well over
the internet.

[leftchick]

64. do you think what you just posted...

made any sense at all??

[saigon68]

71. He's on a roll

Yikes

[Media_Lies_Daily]

53. What an idiot thing to say. What else can we do to any of the Iraqis?...

Heck, we've already bombed them back to the 18th century, killed tens of thousands of their people, and are in the process of stealing their oil.

More Shock and Awe, perhaps?

[methinks2]

73. So . . . other than the body count

how are we any different to these people than the last ruler in that country? And does anyone know the current body count to this military exercise? How about the body count from the last time we were in Iraq?

[The_Casual_Observer]

85. Oh! all the phoney outrage

"We" need to do something! This is a tragedy! "We" need to change things over there!

[xchrom]

89. and then all the resistance will stop?

you were going to stop terrrorism when you invaded iraq -- remember bali, spain, etc?
you don't get just the revenge for the contractors -- you get somebody else blown up as a result -- maybe it will be your kids next time.
truly -- mindless jerks like you need to fired and your pentagon pension given to an innocent iraqi mother -- one who lost her child when our troops accidently shot killed him or her.

[NeoConsSuck]

102. Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt's words:

"There is a cancer inside the society of Iraq that shows no signs of leaving any time soon,"

Hey Mark, I agree with you 100%. However, I think the cancer is the American occupiers.

[llmart]

105. I am so weary right now

I've read this entire thread and I'm emotionally exhausted. There is no argument here - further violence on the part of the US will NOT SOLVE ANYTHING! When we went to war in Afghanistan there were very few people willing to say that it wouldn't solve anything and it was the wrong thing to do (with the exception of Barbara Lee). I said it and got strongly criticized for it. But now from the perspective of time passed, can anyone please tell me what it accomplished? So, too, this Iraq war and it's escalating violence will solve nothing, though more people were on board with that concept at the get-go.

I am of the VietNam generation - 55 years old - and I have no idea what the ages of the DU posters here are (except maybe Saigon68)but I'm telling you that I remember the VietNam fiasco like it was yesterday. It affected our lives in many ways. Young people's lives were changed forever because of it. There will come a time when the US troops will have to leave Iraq just like they had to leave VietNam and all that bloodshed will be for naught - mark my word. I have too many memories of VietNam not to know that war is nothing but waste.

[VolcanoJen]

110. Thank you for that crucial, heartbreaking post, llmart.

The beautiful thing about DU is that we are people of many ages, colors and experiences. We choose to come together out of anger, and out of hope. We are here to learn, we are here to listen, and we are here to talk.

What makes the Iraq War all the more tragic is that it is being waged by those who are around your age, and who experienced the Vietnam era. None of them fought, mind you, but they remember. Unfortunately, they do not remember the mistakes of the past, and we as a nation are condemned to repeat the horror, thanks to an unelected administration.

I've never been more angry. I've never been more distraught.

Thank you, from the bottom of my heart, for reminding all of us that which you experienced. The saddest legacy of this war will be that it was unnecessary and immoral, and even our own Congress did not lift a finger to stop it.

I keep thinking of what John Kerry said, as a young Vietnam veteran:

"How do you ask a man to be the last man to die in Vietnam? How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?"

History repeats itself. I truly did not believe, until one year ago, that this would happen in my lifetime. I curse myself for my own naivete.

[llmart]

131. I just wrote from my heart

My sister was in VietNam as a USO volunteer coordinator. She was never the same person again and I didn't recognize the person who returned. I visited her for two weeks when she worked at a naval hospital with paraplegics and it was a life changing experience for me. I was the same age as the guys she dealt with who had various physical problems and mental ones also. My apartment roommate's fiance came home in a flag draped coffin and I remember how she looked when they came to the apartment to tell her he had been killed. There were guys from my high school graduating class who came back and committed suicide a few years later. Or they'd be drinking heavily and crash their car into a tree and die because they couldn't adjust to civilian life. These were just kids who most of the time couldn't afford to go to college or didn't have the best grades to get into college (or the money that the Bush family had to keep him out of the service)and they were good, decent kids who came back (or didn't)never to be the same.

War is not a solution. Surprisingly, WWII veterans were mostly opposed to this fiasco. Those who have actually seen war are the least likely to support it.

[rfkrocks]

107. No exit strategy-No plan-No clue-America at war under King George

The continuing worst foreign policy disaster since the war of 1812 faces our republic-in Vietnam we screwed up but the world had to worry about the Russian bear and forgave us-today there is no Russian bear and we are flying solo-we are fighting a guerrilla war which if my history serves me right-occupying powers NEVER WIN unless they are willing to completely exterminate the enemy ala the romans to the Jews in 70 ad or the native American wars of the USA-beyond the obvious moral problem-we can't eliminate the Sunni-they are 1/3 of the population of Iraq (which was strung together with gum by the Brits)-in the American revolution 1/3 of this country supported Washington and the revolution-we beat the most advanced military of the day (within only 1/3 of population support) despite losing fixed battle after battle-the Brits had to send a stretched military overseas to resupply their forces-we face a committed minority of a population-an insurgency can stop all progress in a country-on June 30th Bush now will turn government over to a unrecognized and illegitimate group (according to the Iraqis) and then the place gets worse-we can't win and the morons who thought this war up are ignorant of history plus smoking wacky weed-

[mulethree]

132. There is a plan

The Plan was bomb the heck out of them, appoint some leaders, and Presto! We have a democratic nation that will eliminate the biggest threat to Israel; Will sell us oil and in turn buy American stuff like corn, guns, pharmaceuticals and Bulldozers?; will form a non-sectarian democratic blockade in the middle of Islamic Extremist Arabia and Iran.

What's a few dozens of thousands of casualties compared to that greater good? Whats a few Billion Dollars, It's only a 30% increase in the Deficit for a few years.

The problem is ... Yeah all that stuff you said.

But I don't think they're on wacky weed, then they would have started moving the pins on the map to form smiley faces and horsies .... ooh maybe thats where the "but Iraq has better targets than Afghanistan" came from.

Never mind

[Barkley]

136. Red, White 'n Blue: These Colors Don't Run!

... the world

[tenten420]

111. I thought those killed were mercs and deserved it

Why would we avenge the rightful killing of mercenaries?

[bushbegone04]

138. I agree they were mercenaries BUT

But NO ONE deserves to die like they did. Being new here, I'm sure I'll be so unpopular now, but I have to put my foot down on this one. No matter the sins of these men, they had families that have to live with those graphic images and the brutality of what happened. Where's the humanity on this thread? The children of these men have no body to bury, no more father (no matter what he did for a living - children are innocent and now they will be fatherless) Can't we look past the politics for once?

[Malva Zebrina]

112. Yes, in order to defend these mercenaries

we might, a la Sharon, use our superior military apparatus to smoke em out, make em run, and bomb twenty to get one.

Yup--sounds real tough.

The fact is that we have the superior military apparatus--we showed em alright when we dropped thousand and thousands of bombs within a period of 48 hours and killed tens of thousands of their civilians as they slept in their beds. All on lies

and now, we are outrages that this superior military apparatus, cannot protect the mercenaries that are there protecting the corporations who are there, in their greed, exploiting the deaths of those civilians, by grabbing the spoils and using the invasion as a form of American imperialism

and they dare to fight back? In their rage, and thier impotence, they have begun to fight back with what resources they have at hand. It is not anything near the superior forces and military apparatus the US brags of and yet,, here they are--making a dent--making headlines.

We need to just get out of there. Let they have a revolution and fight it out between them. Those who reject that solution are those who, I suspect, really want those corporations to get a foot hold there.

[knight_of_the_star]

114. This is bloody stupid

No one in history has EVER done something like this without it biting them in the ass at some point later on. Slaughtering a bunch of people and declaring them to be militants will NOT help us win the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people.

[NNN0LHI]

116. What made you think we wanted to win the hearts and minds of the Iraqis?

Didn't you get the memo? We are in Iraq because Iraq has the worlds second largest proven oil reserves. We are not in Iraq to win hearts and minds. Fuck hearts and minds. We are there to rip off the Iraqis oil. Anyone who tries to tell you something different will be lying.

Don

[saigon68]

124. Couldn't agree more Don

Its all about the Benjamins.

[northern]

149. They are not insurgents or terrorists...

They ARE freedom fighters!!!! Their country has been invaded by foreigners.
I would probably be doing the same if a foreign power illegally invaded my country.

[m-jean03]

156. I'm sure they would like to "win hearts and minds" if they could

But only because a bunch of blinded & pacified sheep would be easier to exploit than
the angry insurgent type. . . !

[tlcandie]

115. I guess you end up being like Sharon and killing MANY MANY

more than killed you for revenge and just keep on keepin' on till they are all dead? :shrug:

Build a wall, but in the meantime work on killing as many as possible and mowing down their homes and destroying anything that is of value to them including children and loved ones.

That should work quite well, no? It seems to have worked well for Israel and Palestine.

/sarcasm off

I'm with another poster here...can we just suicide the whole world out of this and get it over with? No more nickel and dime stuff. I'm sick to death of all this killing of people and the environment...soon there will be nothing left but dead things and evil people :cry:

When do the bad guys lose that is what I wanna know? Far too many innocents and poor people suffer so needlessly in this world and yet we keep going round and round on the merry-go-round.

[BadGimp]

117. More Winning Hearts and Minds effprts no doubt

wow

simply stunning the ignorance and arrogance this administration shows

we invade their country and then threaten to kill them when they fight back

yeah - this will work just fine..

...

FOR BIN LADDEN!!

[RaRa]

118. Not to condone what happened,

I did see some nasty photos, and I don't mean to suggest those poor folks deserved what they got, but from what I heard, they were employees of the company (don't recall name, something like Blackwater?). That means they were essentially military gone private acting as military escorts. Not exactly the same as shooting a nurse or engineer. Another bullshit excuse for * to escalate this fiasco.

[DubyaSux]

129. What's the problem?

I don't know what the big deal is. We can always beat them into liberation...

[koopie57]

133. Could someone please remind me

what these Iraqi people ever did to us in the first place?

[NNN0LHI]

134. Last I heard was Saddam wished he had WMD's so we had to attack n/t

[m-jean03]

157. I wonder if Our God overheard him praying to His God for these

and alerted Bush? :eyes:

[ProfessorGAC]

140. Huh?

Overwhelming? If you track down those that did it, why would it be overwhelming? Wouldn't be more a police style investigation that brings killers to justice?

Also, it's going to be methodical and overwhelming?

Seems to me that overwhelming means they intend to flatten Fallujah into the earth. Methodical means a disciplined investigation resulting in arrests.

So, Paulie, which is it?
The Professor

[0007]

143. Anything junior does in Iraq doesn't overwhelm me anymore

...this guy junior is capable of using nuclear power on anyone, and it wouldn't surprise me if junior isn't taken out of office he may use that power.

[saigon68]

144. According to Savage he just Might

http://www.homestead.com/prosites-prs/index.html

[0007]

146. Thanks for the link saigon -

Christ, I can't tell 'ya in words how Savage and that website offends me.

Nothing wrong with knowing that ignorance is still hanging around.

[w4rma]

147. Is Reuters trying to blur the line between combatants and non-combatants?

These guys were soldiers of fortune/private security/mercenaries/private soldiers. The term "contractors" implies that they were unarmed and were doing something like engineering.

The press should be concerned with this bluring of the lines, as they too must operate in dangerous areas like this.

[iam]

148. In WWII

When some resistance fighters killed a conservative nazi, the nazis would employ an overwhelming response, they would murder hundreds of civilians. Now I'm sure the US military won't just round up civilians and murder them outright, they will be collateral damage in the hunt for these people. A "this is war, people die" kind of justification. "We weren't aiming at the innocent, we tried to kill only the guilty", but dead is dead and the Iraqis won't give a damn about our rationale.

[northern]

150. Well put iam

The Iraqis will remember this invasion for a long, long time. Bush has given the American people a whole
bunch of new mortal enemies to deal with after his ass is kicked right back to Crawford.

[0007]

152. btt

[swinney]

153. Like these Bush waffles

9-13-01--Bush-"The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin Laden. It is our number one priority and we will not rest until we find him".

3-13-02--Bush--"I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and
I really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority."

Ain't this guy a cool cat.

[LiberalFighter]

158. Bestial act???

This Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt and his cronies must be animals!!!