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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-10 09:20 AM
Original message
O'Donnell questions separation of church, state
Source: WaPo

WASHINGTON -- Republican Senate nominee Christine O'Donnell of Delaware is questioning whether the U.S. Constitution prohibits the government from establishing religion.

In a debate at Widener University Law School, O'Donnell criticized Democratic nominee Chris Coons' position that teaching creationism in public school would violate the First Amendment by promoting religious doctrine.

O'Donnell asked where the Constitution calls for the separation of church and state. When Coons responded that the First Amendment bars Congress from making laws respecting the establishment of religion, O'Donnell asked: "You're telling me that's in the First Amendment?"



Read more: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/10/19/AR2010101902501.html
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-10 09:22 AM
Response to Original message
1. she is really stupid...but people will vote for her.
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Betty Karlson Donating Member (902 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-10 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #1
21. 1/3 third of all Delaware voters, roughly.
Let's not overestimate Ms O'Donnell's impact.

Winning Delaware is, unfortunately, one of the least of our problems at this point. Chris Coons is entering the realm of sure-to-win candidates like Schumer, Gillibrand, Leahy.
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-10 09:24 AM
Response to Original message
2. Jeebus Fracking Cripes n/t
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Arkansas Granny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-10 09:25 AM
Response to Original message
3. Oh, my. I just have no words.
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harvey007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-10 09:38 AM
Response to Original message
4. Dingbattery
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-10 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. Idiocracy was a documentary.
Sad but true.
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SomeGuyInEagan Donating Member (872 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-20-10 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #8
47. My wife said the same thing just yesterday, but about a different issue. n/t
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JustABozoOnThisBus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-10 09:39 AM
Response to Original message
5. Enjoy your fifteen minutes, Christine
Well, unless she's Sarah's running mate in 2012. Then she gets another fifteen minutes.

:hi:
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Tansy_Gold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-10 09:42 AM
Response to Original message
6. Grasp of the Constitution? How 'bout her grasp of reality?
From the OP article --

"You actually audibly heard the crowd gasp," said Widener University political scientist Wesley Leckrone, adding that he thought it raised questions about O'Donnell's grasp of the Constitution.

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Brother Buzz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-10 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #6
31. It was hardly a gasp, it was more like a guffaw
and the one lady continued laughing way after it happened, barely managing to catch her breath. It was a gay crowd.
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-10 09:50 AM
Response to Original message
7. Yep, the very first one, dumbass
Geez. She's got teh Stupid so bad it hurts.
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Kablooie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-10 09:55 AM
Response to Original message
9. This is why Plato thought democracy would never work. The idiots would take control.
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Phoonzang Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-10 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #9
25. Plato was right. nt
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-10 10:03 AM
Response to Original message
10. This may explain why she had three senior years in college - and still did not
Edited on Tue Oct-19-10 10:04 AM by karynnj
have everything completed for graduation.

This is in the NJ high school curriculum - and in the middle school one too (I think).
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herbm Donating Member (980 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-10 10:14 AM
Response to Original message
11. This is what happens when a candidate confuses talking points with fact. She needs the 'Bill of Righ
ts for Dummies" book.
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backtomn Donating Member (424 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-10 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #11
36. ????
CONGRESS shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.
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h9socialist Donating Member (584 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-10 10:21 AM
Response to Original message
12. If being an idiot were illegal . . .
. . . Christine O'Donnell would face capital punishment in the sentencing phase!

Reagan opened the doors to mental institutions, so he could dump the patients on the streets -- that way he could cut taxes for his rich buddies.

This version of conservative Republicans have opened the doors to the rest home for the hopelessly insane in order to recruit a new generation of candidates.

. . . How hard is it to learn Swedish?
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A HERETIC I AM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-10 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. Being an idiot should simply be painful.
If it were, O'Donnell would not be able to leave the house.
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h9socialist Donating Member (584 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-20-10 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #15
50. The problem is that it already is painful -- for all the rest of us!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-10 10:26 AM
Response to Original message
13. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
herbm Donating Member (980 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-10 10:31 AM
Response to Original message
14. I e-ed her a 'copy' of the First Amendment, she actualy has a "fact checker" button on her site!!!!
Edited on Tue Oct-19-10 10:31 AM by herbm
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-10 11:07 AM
Response to Original message
16. The First Amendment nullifies the first four of The 10 Commandments.
Edited on Tue Oct-19-10 11:14 AM by Ian David








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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-10 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. LOL.
:thumbsup:
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-10 11:26 AM
Response to Original message
18. Damn
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-10 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. Damn indeed. nt
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sakabatou Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-10 11:29 AM
Response to Original message
20. Too few people know about the Establishment Clause
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backtomn Donating Member (424 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-10 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #20
34. Apparently not at DU either.....
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof".

This really doesn't say "separation of church and state"......not is that what it means. That was a Thomas Jefferson quote in a different writing (ie. "wall of separation.."). It says that Government cannot establish a religion or prohibit free exercise of religion. The Bill of Rights explain the limitations of Government.....not citizens.

O'Donnell is a buffoon (and maybe a witch), but is technically right here. It was amazing how few people at this debate (AT A LAW SCHOOL) understood this.

We really need to focus on differences between candidates (which we win).....not this silliness.
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dogfacedboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-20-10 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #34
42. The very line you quote creates the separation. Think it over again.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-20-10 07:41 AM
Response to Reply #34
43. The Constitution means what it says, not what you think Jefferson meant somewhere else.
A text is a text. The text is about Congress, the national legislature, and it restricts what it may do, it may not favor ("establish") any particular religion, and it may not prohibit the free exercise of any religion. There is actually a big loophole there, since it does not say what a "religion" is, and that loophole has been exploited endlessly since then, you can never close all the loopholes in the law. But anyway, THAT is the "wall of separation". "Wall of separation" is someone else's phrase, the Constitution doesn't say that, it just say Congress should stay out of it, something which Congress has repeatedly failed to do, and which failure the USSC has repeatedly overlooked.
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mahatmakanejeeves Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-10 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
22. You're jest one o' them
smarty-pants snobs, with yer smart-alecky book-larnin' and thinkin' you know everthing jest a'cause you know about readin' and sech.

You betcha.
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6000eliot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-10 12:37 PM
Response to Original message
23. Stephanie Miller played this on her show.
The entire audience laughed right in her face.
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brooklynite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-10 01:20 PM
Response to Original message
24. The way to explain it to her...
...is to point out that 400 years ago, without Church/State separation, the Government would have burned her at the stake -- being a witch and all...
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Viking12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-10 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
26. She was clueless about the 14th, 16th, and 17th Amendments too.
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-10 03:16 PM
Response to Original message
27. K & R to give her stupidity greater visibility.
:kick:
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ozymandius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-10 03:40 PM
Response to Original message
28. To think a candidate for the U.S. Senate would fail 9th grade Civics.
Words fail to express my bewilderment.
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auburngrad82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-10 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Would Bush have passed?
The GOP seems to worship stupidity.
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grilled onions Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-10 04:51 PM
Response to Original message
30. To Her It's More Like Church and Stake
At this point she will say anything to get the votes.
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Daemonaquila Donating Member (413 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-10 05:19 PM
Response to Original message
32. Christine O'Donnell Questions Separation Of Church & State
Source: Huffington Post

Republican Senate nominee Christine O'Donnell of Delaware on Tuesday questioned whether the U.S. Constitution calls for a separation of church and state, appearing to disagree or not know that the First Amendment bars the government from establishing religion.

The exchange came in a debate before an audience of legal scholars and law students at Widener University Law School, as O'Donnell criticized Democratic nominee Chris Coons' position that teaching creationism in public school would violate the First Amendment by promoting religious doctrine.

Coons said private and parochial schools are free to teach creationism but that "religious doctrine doesn't belong in our public schools."

"Where in the Constitution is the separation of church and state?" O'Donnell asked him.

Read more: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/10/19/christine-odonnell-church-and-state_n_767910.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+HP%2FPolitics+(Politics+on+The+Huffington+Post)



Just... wow. She has a serious case of teh dumb.
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-20-10 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #32
46. She has a serious case of seperation of brain and body. nt
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Jeneral2885 Donating Member (598 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-20-10 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #32
48. No, she's right
She is privvy to Top Secret Information that the Constitution doesnt say that.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-10 05:35 PM
Response to Original message
33. Palin said the Constitution says marriage is between a man and a woman.
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backtomn Donating Member (424 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-10 05:54 PM
Response to Original message
35. The Establishment Clause
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.
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dimbear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-10 06:35 PM
Response to Original message
37. Is this what our foremothers struggled for, Republicans?
Really? The new face of feminism?
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Volaris Donating Member (479 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-10 07:20 PM
Response to Original message
38. I just saw the video, and
Chris Coons has WAYYYY more patience for this brand of American Stoopid than I would have, I would have ripped her apart for continuing to FAIL high-school level Civics, and then probably chucked something at her head. In a Just and Perfect world this level of patience alone should qualify him for the U.S. Senate. I really don't know that I want to vote for any of those cowards that sit the D.L.C., but if it serves as a great big Fuck You to those religious lunatics who would "dissappear" MY version of Republican-ism (you know, the kind that freed the slaves and USED to like Science and Stuff) well then So be it. They need to be taught a lesson that NO PARTY in this country is going to be to allowed to abuse the intelligence of the smartest of us simply to garner votes from the dumbest.
Peace out, and happy voting to all=)
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-10 09:06 PM
Response to Original message
39. The American Doctrine of Separation of Church and State is built on quicksand
Edited on Tue Oct-19-10 09:09 PM by happyslug
First the Bill of Rights, as passed by Congress and the States only apply to the Federal Government. That is clean by the worlds used in the Bill of Rights and the intention of Congress and the States when it was passed.

This changed when Congress adopted the 14th Amendment which extended "Equal Protection of the Laws" and "Due Process" to the States. Even after the 14th was passed, the Bill of Rights was held NOT to applied to the states UNLESS we are talking of Equal Protection of the Laws (Which the Supreme Court then restricted to rights in the Constitution itself NOT the Bill of Rights) OR some sort of denial of Due Process of Law.

In 1905, in the infamous Locher vs New York Case, the Court adopted the concept that Due Process was broader then what happens at trial, but it would be a violation of the Due Process Clause if the State would force a person to violate a right protected under the US Constitution. In Locher the issue was the right to enter a Contract, a Right stated in the Constitution itself NOT the bill of Rights. The Court ruled that it was a denial of Due Process for a State to prohibit a worker to enter into an employment contract to work 24 hours a day at starvation wages (Thus striking down a Minimum wage and Maximum hour law of the State of New York). Thus was born the "Substantial Due Process" Concept.

After WWI, the "Substantial Due Process" concept was expanded to included Freedom of Speech and Assembly. IT was soon expanded to Religion and other groups on the grounds it was a violation of Substantial Due Process for the State to prohibit speech and people to assemble. Thus the Bill of Rights was equaled to the Right To Contract.

The problem with this trend is that in 1938 in the case of Jones and Laughlin Steel Company vs NLRB, the Court over turned Locher and said the States and the Federal Government could put restriction on one's right to contract as to wages and hours. Thus the case that set up the incorporation of the Ten Amendments was struck down as no longer good law, but it is the case that the whole concept of incorporating the Federal Bill of Rights to the States is based on.

Remember the concept of Separation of Church and State is based on a letter of Jefferson, but not a letter in regards to the Constitution but how government SHOULD be set up. The concept, in the letter, is NOT based on anything in the Constitution nor any comments on the Constitution of his time period. It is more a comment how things should be NOT how there were.

Now, the Supreme Court has long ruled that the Bill of Rights is incorporated to the States via the Due Process Clause of the 14th Amendment. It is part of the policy of the Supreme Court to make Civil Rights an important issue for the Court, as opposed to the Supreme Court traditional policy of primarily protecting property rights. Prior to the Supreme Court decisions starting in the 1920s, the court REFUSED to protect People Civil Rights, leaving such protections to the Congress and then restricting such protections if such protections interfered with property rights.

My point here is the Court has long ruled the Bill of Rights are incorporated to apply to the States via the Due Process Clause of the 14th amendment, but you can make a valid argument in the from how is the Freedom of Speech a Due Process issue? If the state say I can NOT make a speech in the middle of the Street, how are my rights to Due Process affected? Due Process is HOW the Courts handle a case, NOT the underlying law. I can see have my case heard by a Judge and Jury. I can still appeal any adverse decision. All of that is Due Process, but how is how and when I make as speech an issue of Due Process?

Separation of Church and State is even an easier subject, you do NOT have to worry about the issue of a Law saying you can not do X, thus making X illegal and giving you no chance to do X (The classic case of Substantial Due Process claim i.e. the law prohibits me from doing what I want to do without a chance to give me a chance to argue why I should be able to do what I want to do).

A law authorizing a State Religion does not prohibits someone from refusing to join that Church. Thus, the person who does NOT want a State Church can form their own, or protest the state church. Thus such a law does NOT prohibit someone from doing X. The law just provides funds and other benefits to the that church. This type of case avoids the issue of someone being prohibited from doing something, if you do not want to join you do not have to. Taxes will go, but taxes go to many places people do NOT want their taxes to go (For example the War in Iraq and Afghanistan). How is this a violation of a person's right to due process?

Now, the Courts have ruled BOTH of the above examples are violation of the 15th amendment's Due Process Clause. The Issue of Freedom of Speech and Assembly is easy, for in those cases the States were prohibiting people from doing something, that they had no where else to go to perform those actions.

As to funds to churches, the Courts have long ruled that Churches can NOT get tax money except in certain limited circumstances (i.e. where the Church is in the same line as secular providers for the same service). It is a harder call, but that is how the courts have ruled i.e. it is a denial of Substantial Due Process for a State to provide Money for a Church for Church related duties that had nothing to do with the state.

The Courts have also accept as a violation of Due Process for the State to set up religious displays unless such displays can be set up by anyone (and even then restricted i.e. has to be neutral, no nativity scenes for Muslims, Jews and atheists have no equivalent observations).

Given the above, all I am pointing out is that the whole concept of Separation of Church and State is based on the Incorporation of the Bill of Rights via the Due Process Clause of the 14th Amendment. As such it is built on quick sand, for how is the rights in the First Amendment due process rights? The Courts have said they are, but you can make a good argument that they are not.

If you want to read the 14th Amendment:

Amendment 14 - Citizenship Rights. Ratified 7/9/1868.

1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.


(I am excluding paragraphs 2,3 and 4, for those are US Civil War specific clauses)
http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html#Am14

Locher vs New York:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lochner_v._New_York

The actual case:
http://supreme.justia.com/us/198/45/case.html

NLRB vs Jones and Laughlin Steel Corporation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Labor_Relations_Board_v._Jones_%26_Laughlin_Steel_Corporation

Actual Decision:
http://supreme.justia.com/us/301/1/case.html
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dreamnightwind Donating Member (863 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-20-10 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #39
41. Thanks
This is the only post in this thread that I learned anything from. I knew it wasn't as simple as people wanted to make it out to be.

I dislike organized religion and want no sanction of it from my government, I think it's mostly ignorant superstition and distorted history.

However, the establishment clause of the 1st Amendment seems to me to fall far short of what most people on here seem to think it says.
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NoGOPZone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-20-10 08:09 AM
Response to Reply #41
44. I'm glad you learned.
Now forget the part about 'substantial due process'. The correct word is 'substantive'.
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Trajan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-10 10:19 PM
Response to Original message
40. Hilarious ....
Bill Maher will have videos extending into the next century with this campaign alone ....

She has no idea how badly she is doing .... Is there not a single adult in her cortege ?
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livetohike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-20-10 08:22 AM
Response to Original message
45. The entire teabag group has little knowledge of the Constitution
yet they portray themselves as "strict Constitutionalists". This is so embarassing to O'Donnelland she sits there like some 7th grader who has heard this for the first time. Major props to future Senator Coons for patiently explaining it to her.

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and-justice-for-all Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-20-10 11:11 AM
Response to Original message
49. What an idiot...
Of course it does not read as "Seperation of church and state" in the document, The Constitution does not read that easily, but none the less it is a statement of Seperation of church and state.
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