French pension protest turnout 1.1 million -govt

[Joanne98]

Source: Reuters

The French Interior Ministry said 1.1 million people took part in nationwide protests against pension reform on Tuesday, slightly below the 1.2 million that the ministry reported joined protests last week.

The CGT labour union said 3.5 million people turned out for Tuesday's protests, matching last week's turnout on its count. Government estimates tend to be well below those of unions. (Reporting by Gerard Bon, editing by Tim Pearce)



Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSPISJLE6AL20101019

[defendandprotect]

1. Just came to post this ...

Pres. Sarkozy is rigidly sticking with his agenda --

Can they get him to resign?





here's another link on the story ....

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/eu_france_retirement_strikes

[Bragi]

2. Resignation not the real goal

The real goal is to make such an outcry that Sarky will conclude that, in the future, he will look for other ways to practice "austerity".

It's the opposite to the situation in the U.S., where a well-trained and docile population makes it easy to target middle and low income people whenever the MIC wants to show them who's boss.

[defendandprotect]

5. Sarkozy is fairly right wing ... don't understand how they put him in office ... but

doesn't sound like he's changing his mind --

Sarkozy has nothing to lose IF toppling him isn't one of the possibilities -- ???!!!

I'm not really familiar with how French government works - who would be up next -- who would

take over, etal? And who might be pressuring Sarkozy from within the government???


:)

[KillCapitalism]

21. Fairly right-wing?

He'd make politicians like Sarah Palin & Ronald Reagan look like far-left liberals.

[defendandprotect]

23. I can agree with that .... HOW did he get elected .... ????

In fact, how did we elect Reagan .... ???

Don't think we did!!

:evilgrin:

[CJvR]

39. How he got elected?

IIRC it was an amusing display of political incompetence by the French left that was so divided that they managed to eliminate all their candidates in the first round of voting.

[reggie the dog]

48. wrong election, that is how chirac got elected because t

the left was divided and chirac ran against the racist le pen

sarkozy beat socialist woman candidate mme royale by 6 percent 47 to 53 and i think sexism is to blame, had the socialists ran a man there probably would have been a 6 to 10% swing giving the socialists victory with 53 to 57%

we got fucked by stupid largely old sexists while you in the usa got past racism and elected a non white Democrat!

[reggie the dog]

47. not at all, he is way left of president obama

he wants to keep our national health care but make people pay a bit more for it

he wants to partially privitize the national utilities but not make them 100 private

he wants to eliminate financial pardises as he stated at the g8, g20 and un

he wants to tax financial transactions in all the worlds stock markets

he thinks abortion is a right that need not even be discussed

he thinks financial institutions need regulation lest they become monopolies and stamp out competition which he thinks is essential for capitalism

he thinks the death penalty is horrible

he talks shit about unions which is like reagan or thatcher but he does not want to do to france what reagan or thatcher did to the usa or the uk but we dont want to budge any way in that direction so we protest

sarkozy does not invoke his religion as an explanation of what he does and very very very rarely even mentions religion

he LOANED money to the banks with interest during the economic crisis

he is right wing for france but the right wing here is pretty far left

the only issue he really has in common with the right wing is being part of a government which is anti immigrant but he himself does not speak badly of immigrants as his father was an immigrant from hungary

[reggie the dog]

9. goal 1

get the senate to refuse to take on the political hot potato and therby block the vote
goal 2 show the govt who can shut down the country

goal 3 show the govt who can burn and loot city centers if pushed too hard

goal 4 total collapse of the govt with new elections!!!!

[Bragi]

16. Sound about right to me /nt

[defendandprotect]

24. Well, the French have been thru this once before ... !!

Americans, as well -- don't know if they remember that?

Did notice Sarkozy supposedly told police enforcement to go easy on them --

That's not what would be happening here, I bet!

[reggie the dog]

34. good cop bad cop

the pres, sarkozy says go easy on them

the interior minister says he will use force to break strikes near petrol depots

anyways lots of actions all round france today, roads ports and raffineries blocked, riots in several cities, students on strike, trains and planes not going, a third of gas stations are dry, less goods at the supermarket, trucks on strike

[defendandprotect]

38. Are they trying that . . . "who's really being hurt here?" argument .... ????

The French have til now fairly well succeeded in protecting their safety net --

How have these things usually ended?

Meanwhile, how did Sarkozy get elected?


:)

[reggie the dog]

44. sarkozy got elected by idiots

who didnt want to vote for a woman, she lost 47 to 53 percent and i imagine that at least 3 percent of that vote came from sexists. the right wing is not synanomus with destroying their welfare state, it was put in place largely by the right wing charles de gaulle but yes the current govt is trying that "who are you really hurting" shit but 71 percent of the country supports the strikes in spite of shortages that it is creating!

[defendandprotect]

57. Does France use computer voting? And, for some reason what has just

popped into my mind is Bove -- the guy who was fighting for their food supply --

against MacDonald's etal --

Looked like most of France supported him and then somewhere authorities got very

rough with him.

If they are using computers -- and I hope not! -- then it might not have been 3% "sexists" --

but simply an easily stolen election.

I'm rooting for the French -- wish we had some of their get up and go!

[Bozita]

3. Michael Moore line in Sicko: In America, people fear the govt. In France, the govt fears the people.

[totodeinhere]

4. My question is, what is wrong with having the retirement age at 62?

That seems rather reasonable to me, and it's a lot higher in many other countries including the USA.

[defendandprotect]

6. They reduced it to 60 years in order to alleviate UNEMPLOYMENT problems ... jobs are the question...

throwing older workers back into the work force isn't helpful --

and it's something we here in America should also be thinking about --

65 years olds should be RETIRED, not working at MacDonald's!

Graduates aren't able to get jobs here in America -- twenty year olds!!

And, all of the pension systems have been near-bankrupted, from what I've been

reading over years.

Many American workers now reach their late 30's and 40's without being invested in any

private pension. That's because steady lay-offs have damaged any avenue to retirement

for young people. This makes Social Security an even MORE necessary safety net!

Our safety nets are what block SLAVERY in America -- and we should understand that.

[uppityperson]

10. They are trying to raise it to 62 to pay more into the system than take out

Money is also the question.

65 yr olds should not need to work at McDonald's, but there are other options also. I get tired of "retire or work at McDonalds"

[defendandprotect]

20. Issue is the same as in America ... elite/right wing desire to destroy safety nets ....

Young workers put money into the system --

if you look at America, we're taxing the money seniors get when they return to work --

and they still pay FICA on those wages!! It's insane.

Are you kidding -- 70 years olds -- and even older are out there -- many at MacDonald's,

many in department stores -- !!

Are you hiring 75 year old?

[uppityperson]

26. Sole proprietor here, no employees. Will probably work 'til I'm 70 also

I've friends in 70's still working at their decent jobs. No, I'm not kidding, people do work late at decent jobs as well as McD's.

[defendandprotect]

29. Generally after being let go, seniors work part time -- not full time and certainly NOT

at salaries they once enjoyed -- unless you are self-employed.

And, they don't have extended benefits -- they have Medicare -- nothing adds to it.

They have Social Security -- no future work increases it.

After 40 years or more of work -- to age 65, I would think that people would like time

to do something else. Working longer should not be a necessity -- it should be a option --

a less attractive one.

[uppityperson]

30. "after being let go". Most people "after being let go" don't have salary/benefits

they once enjoyed. There are seniors who have not been "let go" and hence you see other options. I've an engineering friend who still works and is 80. He enjoys it and wants to work and no, is not working for himself.

I agree that people would like time to do other things if they want to. Just disagree that working at McD's being the only option for work.

[defendandprotect]

31. Yes .. executives often stay on longer ... the average guy, not usually....

And, yes, one of my neighbors was an engineer and worked for decades -- and decided

after he reached 67 or so to work only part time. This neighbor has continued to work

because he is concerned about the economy. So there are stories and there are stories.

Again, no one should have to work past 65 out of need -- only as an option.

Right now, with 25 million unemployed, I don't think we have a survey of what is being

offered to seniors. OFTEN, their companies let them work to 67 and that's it.

And, again, when they do get another job it's usually part time -- and they receive less

in compensation than other employees because they don't get medical benefits or pensions.

PLUS, they pay taxes on their earnings -- and FICA.

That's an advantage for employers.

We also have to understand that this depresses the job market further for our youth.

We also have many employees working longer hours than 9 to 5 out of fear of being laid off

or dismissed. And, many often check in on Saturdays. It's an insecure employment picture

which does harm to the nation and to every American.

[uppityperson]

32. no one should have to work past 65 out of need -- only as an option.

[Joanne98]

13. Good point.

[reggie the dog]

8. we already can retire at 60 IF we have worked enough years

why would we want to REGRESS back to working to 62 as we had to decades ago???? retirement ages are meant to get lower, not higher, as a society becomes more civilized, plus i want 50 or 55 as the retirement age like they have in Greece not the 67 or whatever you have in the USA. We dont want to retire at 62 because today we retire at 60, plus making people work longer will make unemployment WORSE as more young kids come up and the jobs are not opened by the old.

[totodeinhere]

12. I'm not sure if a lower retirement age is all it's cut out to be.

My grandfather is 73 and still working. When we ask him why he doesn't retire he says that he enjoys his work and doesn't know what he would do with himself otherwise.

[reggie the dog]

15. too much self identity through work

"doesn't know what he would do with himself otherwise."

do anything, visit your kids and grandkids, go to a country you have never visited, have lunch with friends several days a week (invite people one week and be invited the next) play cards with friends, go for a walk, go fishing, read, go bowling, play golf, sit in the shade and talk, sit in the sun and talk,

i could go on and on, there are many many low money hobbies out there

that is what most old people do here in france anyways

[Bragi]

17. Quite so!

[uppityperson]

27. If he is happy doing what he is doing, why not continue even if he gets paid?

Seriously. Why bash someone for doing what he loves just because it pays him?

[reggie the dog]

37. if it is indeed their hobby that makes them money

then i see nothing wrong with it, some kind of craftwork would be like that, carving etc. but working for lack of something better to do??? hell i would rather ride my bicycle or smoke weed and go hiking than go to work anyday.

[totodeinhere]

53. Well, some people actually enjoy their work. He is a lawyer and does quite a bit of pro bono work

by the way.

[defendandprotect]

25. "Idleness is the beginning of all wisdom" ....

Think too many people are really frightened of the future -- the economy --

and not willing to let go of any employment they may have.

Suburbs, IMO, have lead to boring lives --

between work and families, very little time for personal creativity.

By the time thoughts of retirement arise they can be quite confusing!



IMO, we should also recall that Americans have never really been political --

they've been admonished that we should "not discuss politics or religion in polite society" -- !!

Imagine that!?

And after the Youth Revolution of the 1960's which was about sex and everything else --

complete challenge to authority -- the elites also decided that Americans had far too much

time and money on their hands! And they went about fixing that.

[AngryAmish]

40. Thank god we have you here to sneer at the suburbs

I don't know what we would do without you.

[defendandprotect]

22. Is Greece at 55 ... didn't know that -- !! And, agree with you .... on all points ....

[reggie the dog]

7. I trust the CGT over the cops any day

we had 3500 in my town of 35000 today, i took my 2 year old girl with! about a quarter of the gas stations have no fuel, all raffineries are closed in the country, truck drivers, teachers, train drivers, port workers, raffienery workers, supermarked workers, civil servants, ALL ON STRIKE TODAY AS WAS I!

sarkozy is far right wing for france but would pass for a hard left democrat in the usa,

PLUS THE HIGH SCHOOL KIDS HAVE BEEN STRIKING AND RIOTING FOR DAYS! riot police are called out to de block the front doors of schools and the kids respond by burning trash bins and throwing molotovs!!!! plus today people from the poor housing project neighborhoods came to downtown LYON and started burning cars and shops!!!!!!

i have a side of me that likes when the black flag of anarchy meets the red flag of communism!!!

keep up the pressure union folks!!!!!!!

[billlll]

11. 65 is fullpay French retire age NOT 60. 60 is for partial pay

So don't say "why they complain about 62?"

65 upping to 67 is the complaint.

MSM has really slanted the story by omitting this "little" fact.

[reggie the dog]

14. here is how it works

you must work for 42 years

and be at least 60 to go on full retirement

if you are 60 and have not worked for 42 years you go on partial retirement until you are 65 or work until you get your 42 years in or turn 65 when everyone gets full retirement

hence the 60 to 62

or 65 to 67

[uppityperson]

28. You must work for 42 yrs in France vs 10 in USA for retirement?

40 quarters of work are necessary in USA to get social security benefits. In France it is 42 years? Or do you mean when you turn 65 you get retirement benefits even if you've worked, say, 20 yrs?

Thanks for the clarification.

[reggie the dog]

33. you get partial benefits if you worked 20 years

and full benefits if you worked 42 years, if you only work 10 years you get a retirement but it is not a full retirement

[uppityperson]

41. Thanks, it is difficult to figure it out. Do you know % @ 10 or 20 yrs?

42 yrs is quite a while to work, not much time off in there.

[Tansy_Gold]

42. Not much time off? Ask how many weeks of vacation the

average French worker gets per year. How many holidays. How many hours worked.


TG

[uppityperson]

45. I mean years off, not vacation time. Working for 42 yrs straight, without

time off between jobs, seems like quite a bit. Have you worked for 42 years? Let's say you start right out of high school, age 18. Have you been continuously employed 'til you are 60? If you went to college and got out at 21, that means you would work continuously until 63. I know there are people who do that, but know many who don't work continuously also.

[Tansy_Gold]

49. Most working people can't afford to take months or years

off between jobs. Most working people. . . . work.

How many working people do you know who take a year off here, a year off there, six months every now and then?

Indeed, most working people. . . . . . . work. They can't afford to do otherwise.


TG

[uppityperson]

51. I know that, good grief. However, many working people....change jobs, get laid off, etc

I know people who have time between jobs. I know people who take time off also, but for most it is involuntary. Do you seriously know no one who has been laid off and not started working again right away?

[Tansy_Gold]

55. Up until the current economic crisis, indeed most people

worked without huge lapses in employment.

I don't know how old you are. I'm 62, and for most people of my and my parents' generation, steady work was the norm, not the exception. Generally you worked one job and only left it when you had another lined up. You didn't spend months looking for another, unless you had sufficient savings -- or a working partner/spouse who could support you.

Between his high school graduation in 1965 and the day he died at age 59, the longest my husband was "out of work" was the five weeks prior to his death from lung cancer. My father and my in-laws all worked full-time steady jobs, without extended periods of unemployment, right up to and after retirement age.

The French system doesn't require that one work 2000 hours per year; their mandated time off is far more generous than in the U.S. and their system for qualifying for retirement benefits doesn't equate to working without short lapses. But the truth is that most working people work most of the time. They can't afford not to.



TG, NTY

[uppityperson]

56. Not that much younger than you are.

Being underemployed/laid off, I can't afford to not work. Many women do not end up working continuously due to children. I remember being asked my reproductive plans wayyyy back, to determine if a place wanted to hire me or not.

Altogether, mandating 42+ yrs employment seems harsh. That is my point. Not whether or not people have to work, but the mandated 42 yrs.

[reggie the dog]

43. i'm sorry i explained poorly

at 60 your partial retirement depends on how many years you worked for but having worked for even 1 quarter of a year gets you benefits, and 40 years (what they call 160 trimesters even though there are 4 per year) gets you full benefits but that is to be moved up to 42 years for people in their 30's like me already before this new reform. EVERYONE WHO WORKED AT ALL GETS A FULL RETIRMENT AT 65 but they want to make that 67.

plus we work 35 hours for a full work week and have 5 weeks paid vacation not to mention over a dozen holidays off (varies slightly by region)

[uppityperson]

46. Thanks for the explanation.

My French relatives like the 35 hr work week and the paid vacation, have heard much about that.

[bemildred]

18. Nicolas Sarkozy calls for calm as French pension protests gather pace

Cars burned, shop windows smashed and 4,000 petrol stations 'awaiting supplies' on sixth day of French protests

Strikes gathering pace against Nicolas Sarkozy's pension reforms appeared to be pushing France closer to crisis today as fuel shortages were felt across the country and violence erupted on the sidelines of protests by children.

On a sixth day of the national demonstrations, Sarkozy was forced to appeal for calm and "responsibility" after cars were burned, shop windows smashed and at least two photojournalists assaulted in Nanterre, west of Paris, and Lyon. Authorities said they believed those responsible for the incidents were not genuine protesters but "thugs" who had come to disrupt the proceedings.

While the violence was kept on a limited scale, the president could do little to stop the oil refinery strike from biting hard in large parts of the country. Jean-Louis Borloo, the ecology minister, said today that just under 4,000 petrol stations, of a total of 12,500, were "awaiting supplies" – without saying all these were suffering actual shortages.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/oct/19/france-pension-protests-nicolas-sarkozy

[bemildred]

19. French Pension Strikes Escalate as Sarkozy Remains Defiant

So what do we have here, a defiant call for calm?

France's escalating conflict over pension reform entered money time on Tuesday, as opponents of the measure staged the sixth wave of demonstrations in as many weeks. But even as officials of President Nicolas Sarkozy's conservative government claimed the protests were weakening, violent clashes between police and students suggested elements of the movement appear to be radicalizing. With the contested bill slated for final legislative passage by the end of the week — and unions set to meet Wednesday to decide what steps they'll take next — it remained unclear whether opposition to the widely unpopular reform would ratchet up for a seventh straight week, or begin to peter out, as Sarkozy and his backers hope.

Demonstrators staged nearly 270 marches across France on Tuesday, coinciding with strikes that forced the cancellation of 30% to 50% of flights at Paris-area airports, cut rail traffic to roughly 50% of normal levels, and disrupted commuter and municipal transport in major French cities from Toulouse to Lille by way of Lyon. As corteges set off in French cities in the early afternoon, union officials estimated that nearly three million people joined nationwide marches on Oct. 12 and 16. Prime Minister François Fillon countered by saying falling numbers of protesters were proof the movement was "starting to fade." He also demonstrated the defiant attitude he and Sarkozy share by refusing to negotiate changes to their reform bill and denying union claims of big turnouts to its protests. "It never achieved significant progress it never drew more than a million people to the streets," Fillon told conservative parliamentarians. "However, it is radicalizing." (See pictures of the French protests turning violent.)

That's something everyone in the dispute agrees on. Earlier in the day, high school students who last week threw their support behind the anti-reform movement engaged in violent clashes with riot police in many French cities, and continued that activity later on the margins of union-led marches. The potential for violence increased elsewhere as Fillon and other government leaders pledged to send in police to force the re-opening of all 12 of France's oil refineries that have been blockaded by workers for nearly two weeks. Yet the government may well be hestitant to risk sparking a violent reaction by refinery workers — thereby fueling the discontent and further radicalizing the protest movement.

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2026431,00.html

[reggie the dog]

35. there are already riots in the cities

if the cops break up the union boys at the refineries there may well be sabatoge of the facilities in the good anarcho syndicalist tradition

i have teacher friends who went and blocked a petro depot with a bunch of unionist yesterday, the coppers stopped some of them in cars but others got though to get to the place to block, others walked an hour on foot to get there!!!

the old and young alike support the strike, 71 percent of the population support the strike even if it means they run out of gasoline or other goods! fuck the government we have large numbers this time, i read that over 90% of the country does not want this reform, thus the 71 percent who support the strike

now England must do their part against their governments austerity plan

[Catherina]

36. This isn't just about pensions

This isn't just about pensions
Axel Veiel


...

Sociologists have already warned of the risk of a conflagration. The nation’s nerves are raw. Emotions are running high, especially since the wave of strikes produced a martyr in the eyes of the resistance movement: 16-year-old Geoffrey Tidjani, hit by a rubber bullet in clashes between youths and riot police, might be left permanently blind in one eye.

...

72 per cent of the French surveyed say they sympathise with the protesters and are in favour of striking indefinitely, if need be, to prevent passage of the amendment. It is certainly unfair that, should the statutory retirement age be raised as planned from 60 to 62, those who start working right after high school will have to slog away for 44 years till they draw a pension, whereas executives can mop up full benefits after only 41.5 years on the job. But it’s hard to believe two-thirds of the population advocate bringing the country to a standstill for that reason alone.

No, these protests are also about the principle of the matter. What is driving millions into the streets is not only a partly unjust pension reform, but injustice per se. Nicolas Sarkozy’s presidency has added abundant fuel to the fire of a deep-seated suspicion: that “those at the top” expect the people to make sacrifices while they themselves are living off the fat of the land.

...

The constitution of the 5th Republic, which took effect in 1958, gave the president quasi-monarchic powers, in the interest of political stability, and restricted “interference” by parliament and political parties to a bare minimum. On the other hand, seeing as only 8% of the nation’s workforce is organised, French labour unions are actually weaker than their punchy slogans would suggest. So, given the dearth of checks and balances, the people, traditionally deeply mistrustful of the powers that be anyway, feel it incumbent on them to rein in the authority of the state.

The protesters have rammed their message home to the politicians. The government, which intends to stand by its pension reform, has declared its willingness to abolish the tax ceiling for the rich: budget minister François Baroin says the “tax shield” introduced by Sarkozy has become a symbol of injustice. Whether that will satisfy the people is another matter, though so far it sure doesn’t look that way.

http://www.presseurop.eu/en/content/article/365181-isnt-just-about-pensions

[reggie the dog]

50. good take on things

just know that ununionized people strike here too!

[uppityperson]

52. Thank you for posting this, good writeup on what the principle of the thing involves

[totodeinhere]

54. It seems to me that the best solution to this problem would simply be to elect

a more progressive president next time would could undo Sarkozy's so-called pension reform. After all, the people elected Sarkozy didn't they? If they made a mistake, correct it at the next election.