National group demands end to prayers at Soddy-Daisy High

[d_r]

Source: Chattanooga Times Free Press

A Wisconsin-based “freethinking” group is demanding that local school leaders quit allowing prayer at public events.

PDF: Prayer letter

At the request of students from Soddy-Daisy High School, the Freedom from Religion Foundation wrote a letter to Hamilton County Schools Superintendent Jim Scales last week, calling the Christian prayers heard over the loudspeaker at football games and graduation ceremonies an “unconstitutional government endorsement of religion.”

The organization’s staff attorney, Rebecca Markert in Madison, Wis., demanded in the letter that the school system begin an investigation into the allegations and take steps to “remedy this serious and flagrant violation of the First Amendment.”

“It’s clearly illegal what they’re doing,” Markert said. “We’ll give a couple of weeks to do an investigation and formulate a response.”

Read more: http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2010/oct/20/national-group-demands-end-prayers-soddy-daisy-hig/#comments

---

It amazes me that some folks really don't seem to be able to understand that prayer in school is the opposite of religious freedom.

[tularetom]

1. I'd be less pissed off about the prayers

Than about having to attend a school named "Soddy Daisy High School" in the first place.

But I'd still be pissed off about the prayers.

[sinkingfeeling]

2. There's a whole town named Soddy Daisy in Tennessee.

[d_r]

3. Apparently it used to be two towns

"Soddy" and "Daisy." But they joined forces.

[calendargirl]

12. Short for Sodom and Goflora? n/t

[MARALE]

30. I liked that one!

HaHaHa HaHaHa breath... HaHaHaHaHaHaha

[tularetom]

18. Spent the first 10 years of my life in Tennessee

Doesn't surprise me at all.

[sinkingfeeling]

4. The high school is in Tennessee but the group making the demand is out of Wisconsin?

http://www.superiortelegram.com/event/article/id/46886/group/News/

"Wisconsin group demands Tennessee school cease game prayers"


And here's a picture of the high school. Looks kinda like a prison to me!




http://www.soddydaisyhighschool.org/

[no_hypocrisy]

5. The Freedom From Religion Foundation is a national group that is headquartered

out of Madison, Wisconsin. They get involved all over the country over Church/State separation issues.

[Just One Woman]

16. actually is same design as a prison

And it feels like a prison when you walk in there too.

[marasinghe]

20. goes with the 'soddy-daisy' theme i believe.

the repuke, one-size fits all but the very rich, school of social design.
school gets you acclimatized for prison, or the labor camp they call 'the working class'.
and religion, tv, or junk food, becomes the opium of the masses - to dull them into mindless acquiescence with the designs of the rulers.

[defendandprotect]

32. And, how did that happen? Is there a story behind it? Wow!

[Just One Woman]

57. Not sure

When they built it and had the open house, many of us were saying that it looked like a prison. Then, in the welcoming remarks from the principal, he stated that it was exactly like a specific prison. He told us which one, but that was years ago and I do not remember which one or why. My guess is because it saved money on the architect. The center is an atrium that serves as the lunch room also. The atrium is actually nice, with trees and sky lights. They have added on several times and it doesn't look quite the same as it did when it was built.

I have been quite surprised at how many people have come out in support of the principal's decision. Oh, there are many that are mad, but they think this means that they cannot pray in public. They do not understand that it is the school that cannot lead prayer.

[defendandprotect]

84. Thanks ... and on that last point ....

I have been quite surprised at how many people have come out in support of the principal's decision. Oh, there are many that are mad, but they think this means that they cannot pray in public. They do not understand that it is the school that cannot lead prayer.

Glad to hear that many are supporting the decision ---

The right wing, however, takes advantage of any loophole they can find -- including sending

Christian kids in to circle together to "voluntarily" say prayers!

Don't know what they're doing lately, but they never give up!

:)

[callous taoboy]

6. An associate of mine called the ACLU about our district

for saying a prayer each year at the staff convocation. ACLU warned the district and the district has stopped doing this.

[herbm]

7. I am sorry, they're wrong. I stand quietly and listen to blessings of other cultures and religion

and don't manage to feel threatened. This is a free speech issue. As long as I don't pray "Run for your lives fire and it is the fault of all the (racial slur of your choice), specificaly (sexual induendo of your choice) John Doe, (demeaning disability slang of your choice)Sam Roe and (agist,sexist discription of your choice)Mary Smith, Amen!", I certainly have the right to vocal speech.

[No Elephants]

9. You have a right of free speech. Government, in the form of a public school, does not.

Making people choose between subjecting themselves to prayers they have no wish to hear and attending a graduation violates the Constitution of the United States. Whether you or I feel threatened is irrelevant. It's not about our feelings. It's about the Constitution.

www.lc.org/resources/memogradprayer.pdf

[herbm]

13. I have free speech in front of my government. I can speak freely at public schools. Govt has no righ

t of prior restraint. As long as I use no hate speech, slander or cause public out cry that violate public order, I can speak on religion or gov't, or the price of chicken wings. Again, as long as my speach breaches no public order, I can say what I want WITHOUT prior restraint. Another one of those "congress shall enact no public laws" only in this case (prior restraint) is covered under "due process and equal protection."

[elleng]

19. First Amendment:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

[defendandprotect]

35. It's a public school funded by government deciding to create organized prayer ....

what is happening is that is being brought to an end.

[COLGATE4]

22. The government cannot endorse any religion. Having religious activities

sponsored by a government funded institution (in this case schools) violates the First Amendment. You fail to distinguish between what you as a citizen can do and what the government can (and cannot do).

[callous taoboy]

25. Hah- Care to give loudspeaker praise to Allah before my local football game?

You'd better have a good getaway car. Get my drift? And this isn't about me. I could care less who people give praise to.

[callous taoboy]

69. I see that this response gets no argument.

[PassingFair]

28. You don't have a right to use a SCHOOL PA system to lead a prayer...

to captive public school children.

You can stand and shout any nonsense that you want,
but the SCHOOL cannot.


Free "speach" indeed!

[defendandprotect]

34. This is organized prayer coming over the loudspeakers ... if YOU, personally,

want to go to a football game and begin praying out loud THAT would be your

free speech.

[Lance_Boyle]

96. You may be able to speak your god-talk freely at public schools (in reality, you can't), but

the schools themselves may not speak god-talk at all. You're pretty much dead wrong here.

[quakerboy]

108. You do

a public school does not. It is not a private person, with the same rights as you have.

[callous taoboy]

23. +1 It is amazing how many folks do not get what you succinctly spell out.

[defendandprotect]

36. Exactly -- Also need to get rid of taxpayer subsidies for "faith-based" religious organizations...!!

Bush began this, evidently as a favor to Popey who needed money for his pedophile

lawsuits!

Obama has INCREASED the funding!!

But we can't afford MEDICARE FOR ALL -- !!!

[Ratty]

10. I'm guessing Soddy-Daisy wouldn't be so sanguine

About invocations to Allah or a reading from the sacred Book of Shadows over their loud speaker. Just guessing here, perhaps I'm way off base ;)

[herbm]

14. Muslim clerics have opened Congress as recently as W's sorry excuse of an administration and it may

helped save the Republic. Only G*d coulda saved us from Cheney, and his little dog W, too.

[greiner3]

11. I might say you are correct with the free speech issue;

But only if each major world religion has a prayer said in some sort of rotation. Say Hindu this week, Islam next, christian next, so on...

[herbm]

15. Maybe. But I've found looking for the Jesus in everybody has taught me it doesn't matter what prayer

its praying that does the work. And if you are Muslim I hope you can find the Mohamad in me. And anyway it is, we can pray together. And if you are an athiest, I'll listen to you read a pertinent section "Jonathon Livingston Seagull" or timely selection from "Reader's Digest" feature of "My Most Unforgrtable Person". Its all good.

[callous taoboy]

24. As an atheist, I don't need you to interpret what atheism means to me

nor do I want any religion in my face unless I choose to put myself in the position of having religion in my face, say at a wedding or funeral.

[herbm]

42. It seems to be one way with you. Ignore theism, certainly your right. My right is to speak fr

eely of Christ. I promise not to interfere with your free speech. And I promise to give you fair hearing.

[AndrewP]

46. I can agree with this actually

As long as a person doesn't push whatever version of Sky Daddy they have on me after learning I'm an Atheist.

[herbm]

52. We can all get along, just like you and me.

[callous taoboy]

60. We could all get along if dogma were to take a back seat to education.

[herbm]

61. That's true. Political as well as religious.

[callous taoboy]

71. So the Constitution is dogma now? It is anti-dogma.

[herbm]

74. Not sure I get your point. The Constitution while a political document goes out of its way to be non

political. In spite of dark times where the Surpreme Court has ruled that blacks are 3/5 human and other dark, dark rulings regarding women, workers' right has alway swung back and been more and more inclusive, including ruling that non citizens have rights while in this country and when in US custody protected by the Bill of Rights. There is no right to not hear something that abridges the right to free speech. No right guarenteed by the Constitution is contradicted by any other right. You have the right to not be compelled to listen - due process would be one right that would prevent it. Do you have the right to stop the kids yelling next door or the ice cream truck bells ringing just because you don't belive in it? Not if the law allowing it is "Constitutional". First Amendment guarentees two thing among four or five others: 1. I can freely practice any religion I want that doesn't break Constitutional civil law. And 2. The government cannot force anybody to practice a religion. You hearing my prayer whether Christian, Jewish, Moslem, Bahai, Zorostran, Buddist, Dao, Tao, Santeria, Wiccan, rodeo clown - whatever does not force you practice anything, but gives you an opportunity to practice self restraint and common courtesy with the other folks on this planet, and share in the muticultural nation we are.

[callous taoboy]

91. Not sure you get the point of separation of church / state.

The government cannot sanction a particular religion. If you are at a public school function and a prayer is said over the loudspeaker, that is the same as state-sanctioned prayer and the supreme court has ruled that unconstitutional.

Bye.

[herbm]

97. I am not so sure you either understand state religion or free speech.

[callous taoboy]

59. Yes, and once again we atheists remain silent, mostly, as the Bible thumpers

thump away. Free thought and free expression of thought, indeed. Can you imagine the shit I'd catch if I challenged my students to consider that maybe there is no such thing as God?

[callous taoboy]

58. I teach. I allow my students to speak freely. I take great care, though, to not

endorse religion. It would be unconstitutional for me, as a public school teacher, to take a position that advocates a particular religion or religious idea. I have had students take the position that God created the heavens and the earth. I do not tell them that they are wrong or that they are right. I tell them that that is one way of looking at it, and since I am a science teacher I'd like to share the scientific view. We do a moment of silence in the state where I teach. A child has every right to bow his or her head and say a prayer, but I cannot lead my class in prayer. This is as it should be. I choose to use the moment of silence to continue doing what I need to do to get my day started with the class. This is not a free speech issue. This is a state-sanctioned religion issue whereby the state, or an extension of the state (me) is not allowed to advocate for certain religious thought. Can you imagine the trouble I'd be in if I spoke freely to my students about meditation, or Zen Buddhism? I'd be out on my ass, and for good reason.

[defendandprotect]

39. As we have seen so sadly and so often, organized patriarchal religions has

not brought peace to the world, but violence.

Look at those who most assuredly display their religious fervor --

W. Bush? Cheney? Rumsfeld?

Ginni Thomas?

Pat Robertson?

Elite religious hierarchies like the Vatican?

If you want to hear comments, perhaps the thing to do is to invite some of the

homeless to speak at these gatherings so they can tell us all of their conditions?

Some of those whose homes have been foreclosed, perhaps?

Women who might like to use the time to speak for equality for all -- including females?

I'd love to hear from peace-activists about ending these cruel and brutal wars that

Democrats have kept going now since '06 -- and which are bankrupting our Treasury!

How about someone speaking out for MEDICARE FOR ALL?

I don't know about you but I can find excellent human value in any of that --

and I'm sure that "Jesus" would be on the side of the homeless, the peace-activists,

and equality for all!

Don't you?

[herbm]

41. I was put out of work during the dot.com bust. I was divorced, lost my home and car. I had custody o

f my two teenaged daughters. We were living in a house we literaly fought the rats over and had no electric or gas. I was four or five weeks before Christmas, two weeks late on my second month's rent and walking 2 miles home with my last $.38 in my pocket. I was approached by a homeless guy who asked me for change. I gave him mine saying it wouldn't help me, maybe it'd help him, that I was two weeks from being under the bridge with him and my two daughters. He said, "Don't worry, buddy, I got your back."

A week later a check from a Canadian company that owed me a consulting fee from more than a year before showed up for $1,200.00. I think I saw Jesus that day dressed as a homeless guy. I look for Jesus in everyone. Sometimes I get blessed, sometimes I am the instrument of blessing.

Christ was about supporting prisoners, the hungry, the sick, the homeless, the helpless - things that only require govt intervention when the church fails to live up to our obligations to our fellow man, christian or not. As a christian I support faith based, but I also know we need our government to support those who fall through the cracks or are ignored or forgotten.

And I agree with you. All these progam killing tea baggers will not lift a Christian finger to replace them with some sort of faith based initiative that they will support. They're against abortion and they don't adopt the kids that number in the 10's of thousands that need home in favor of buying infants from the third world.

But the fact is that we all need to live our faith and values and tea bagging seems to me to be a poor way to do it. The fact remains, Christians can and do make a postive changes to society.

[Scout]

56. "Christians can and do make a postive changes to society."

as do many non-Christians, so what's your point?

[defendandprotect]

81. Exactly ....

"All the saints are in churches and all of the sinners are outside

looking in" --

Of course not!!

:)

[defendandprotect]

80. ANYONE can help create positive change ... You don't have to have religion to do it ....

It's the human spirit which counts -- and the universal human spirit.

Male-supremacist religion has little or nothing to do with any of that, however.

One of the blazing arguments is still over "Jesus'" as a human being -- or as a

supernatural being. Either we teach people what you are expressing, which is that

any of us can do positive things, or we teach people that it is mainly "gods" who

do positive things.

You'll probably also recall that they have tried to bestow "sainthood" on Martin

Luther King, Jr. Same thing as they've tried to do to "Jesus."

The lesson we have to learn is that all of them -- Hitler, Rumsfeld, Cheney . . .

Jesus and Martin Luther King, Jr. were HUMAN. As humans, we are all capable of doing

positive or negative things. Every action begins first on the level of thought.

[defendandprotect]

37. Any organized prayer is a violation of Separation of Church & State ...

If the gentleman would like to exercise his free speech he can go to a football

game and pray -- silently or out loud --

This is organized prayer and should be overturned.

[herbm]

43. Whats so "organized" about a non sectarian prayer? Supporting free speech is not the same as supp

orting the establishment of religion. Please!

[defendandprotect]

82. OP: "Christian prayers heard over the loudspeaker at football games and graduation ceremonies"...

"calling the Christian prayers heard over the loudspeaker at football games and graduation ceremonies an “unconstitutional government endorsement of religion.”

I'm not really sure that you understand the subject you're trying to debate --

[rurallib]

85. Prayer led by tax paid authority figures in a tax paid setting is not anywhere close to free speech.

Why is that so hard to understand?

[defendandprotect]

33. It is a "free speech" issue ... the right to be free from religious propaganda in schools....

and in events connected to our public schools.

We also need to get the "praying" out of our USHR and Senate --

for which we taxpayers, btw, foot the bill!!

As I recall it the USHR preacher gets a salary even higher than the Reps -- and

benefits.

[herbm]

44. Again, the use of a non sectarian prayer or even a sectarian one gets NO tax support

Show me the line item in the budget "prayer - $.50". If yopu don't want to pray - read a book or recite bawdy limerics to your self, text your main squeeze, no one forces you to even pretend you're part of it.

[Scout]

48. look, if you want to think to the invisible man in the sky, do it on your time, at home

or somewhere else. your right to practice does not include a "right" to force everyone else to listen, or to wait for you and do something else, pretend we're not part of it.

if you want to pray, do it ... why do you insist everyone else must do it with you?

[herbm]

51. And if you don't want to, don't push your agenda all over me. Din't yer mom teach you how to be poli

te?

[Scout]

54. LOL! didn't your mom teach you how to think and communicate?

i'm not the one pushing the agenda ... i'm not the one insisting everyone else must partake in my religious practices, or "ignore it" while i practice at public events.

you're the one pushing the agenda, bub.

wah!!!!! i want to practice my religion in public and make everyone else do it to! wah!! poor persecuted christians.... :eyes:

[herbm]

62. I think my mom had better results than yours did. And I have nothing but repect and admiration for y

our mother and fond wishes she might one day know the satisfaction of a civil child.

[callous taoboy]

65. Now that is snarky. But then I'm sure your momma loves you way more than mine loves me.

So put a crash helmet on when you debate this topic. Some of us are fed up with being told that this is a "Christian" nation, that atheists are the lowest of the low.

[herbm]

72. The snark calling the guy who disagrees with him snarky. You only have to read any of your own posts

for prime snark, Snarky! Besides I love the snark on DU. But I guess your mamma never told you not to make false accusations, I've never ever claimed, wished for, or want for the Union to be officialy a "Christian Nation" nor have I ever ever had a bad opinion of athiests as a whole though I think you are wearing your atheism on your cuff as an excuse to shoot off some snark in the direction of anybody with the termacity to disagree with you.

On second thought, maybe your mamma ain't going to see you acting civily after all. Shame that.

[callous taoboy]

92. Look,

you need to get a ticket on the clue bus. But I won't be waiting around to see that happen because you will be joining my long list of folks who seem to be stuck on stupid on my ignore list.

[herbm]

98. Snarky personal attack, is that all you got?

[Scout]

102. look who's talking about snark LOL!!! n/t

[herbm]

106. Riiiiiiight.

[Scout]

109. you're the one who started talkin' about people's mamas n/t

[herbm]

110. So THAT'S when the snark entered. Riiiiiiiiiight. And exactly where did your sainted mother

get snarked, Snarky?

[Scout]

112. ROFL, you're pitiful, i'm not wasting any more time on you. n/t

[herbm]

111. Where did you get snarked at?

[Scout]

77. ROFL n/t

[herbm]

90. Life must be hard being forced to listen to stuff. I mean do they use guns or Vulcan mind probes on

you when you are forced to listen to prayers. Are there tests after, are you graded or imprisoned or censured, have you lost a job for not listening well enough? How horrible it is you've lost a few minutes here or few minutes there of your life. Tragic. Cuts into your DU time? Please, for and injury to be redressed, the injury has to at least happen. You have a solopist grasp of the Bill of Rights.

[Scout]

94. right back atcha ... life must be so hard not being able to force others

to participate in your little rituals. must be so hard not to be able to watch a sporting event without asking the invisible man in the sky to pay attention.

get a clue dude :eyes:

[callous taoboy]

99. The ignore feature is your friend. Save your breath.

This person is stuck on stupid.

[callous taoboy]

64. Thank you. I'd be hauled out of the room if I were to start doing armpit farts

during our school district's christian prayer at the opening convocation. The ACLU has, thankfully, helped to put a stop to state-sanctioned prayer at the convocation.

[herbm]

100. How about sitting at your desk reading first period homework or texting or contemplating the wonderf

ul weather outdoors, imagining your selection of lunch goods deciding whether you are going to get jalapinos with your nachos or not, making rude ryhming puns in your mind based on the prayer. I mean how long was that prayer? Did they make you memorize it? Lead it in front of the class? Ask for biblical reference? Say it aloud with the rest of the class? When you are in a restaurant do you chide anybody else who prays at the table? Or have you learned how to go about your life in tandom with the praying person going about thiers? I went to parochial schools and I would never have subjected my kids to one. And I have been in public schools where prayers of other religions have been offered and they never lasted more than a few minutes and sometimes I got something from it and sometimes like others I skylarked the whole time.

My point is that we are getting about as prickly over "my rights" as the Tea Baggers. They want a prayer, let 'em. As long as it isn't compulsery (which does violate your and my first admendment rights). They aren't going to mysteriously convert me. And I don't think you will be converted either.

[defendandprotect]

83. These are CHRISTIAN prayers ... and prayer itself suggests an attempt to influence

supernatural beings --

All prayer IS merely an attempt to influence the fates for some human cause!

[defendandprotect]

88. Again... it's "Christian" prayer ... it's male-supremacist prayer .... and it's not about money.....

except in regard to giving Vatican our taxpayer $$ to support their many "faith-based"

organizations --

It's about the right NOT to be subjected to religious proselytizing ---

religious propaganda -- and/or male-supremacist opinions about a sky "god" --

[DiverDave]

75. I agree

as long as it's not rank proselytizing, who cares?
There are times to get upset over separation of church and state,
but, this aint one of them.

And as long as there are tests in school, there will be prayer.


Move along, there are REAL problems to raise the BP over.

[ThomCat]

87. As long as the prayers are always only Christian

or only the few "approved" religions, then the school (representing the government, as a public school) is endorsing a religion)

Religious freedom requires that government, in any form, including public schools, CANNOT endorse any religion(s).

It is impossible for them to have prayers from every possible religion:
Baha'i
Buddhism, Mahayana
Buddhism, Theravada
Buddhism, etc.
Christianity, Anglican
Christianity, Baptist
Christianity, Catholic
Christianity, Eastern Orthodox
Christianity, Episcopal
Christianity, Evangelical
Christianity, Gnostic
Christianity, Lutheran
Christianity, Mormon
Christianity, Etc.
Hinduism, Shaivism
Hinduism, Shaktism
Hinduism, Tantrism
Hinduism, Vaishnavism
Hinduism, etc.
Islam, Shia
Islam, Sufi
Islam, Sunni
Islam, Etc.
Jainism
Judaism, Conservative
Judaism, Orthodox
Judaism, Reconstruction
Judaism, Reform
Judaism, etc.
Rastafari
Shinto
Sikhism
Taoism
Unitarianism
Zoroastrianism
etc.

I know I left off a hell of a lot of religions. These are just the ones I could think off.

And that doesn't even begin to cover any of the indigenous religions.

Or new age religions.

It also leaves out the option to have no religion at all, which is also legally protected. Nobody is required to have a religious faith in this country.

If government can't endorse ALL religions, the only legal option is to endorse NO religion. So that has been the legal judgment of the Supreme Court. Government cannot endorse any religion, lest any religion be placed above any other, or the choice to have no religion at all.

That is why your argument is totally foolish, and doesn't even begin to hold any water.

[asjr]

8. This sort of thing has been going on for

generations in TN schools, and probably in other states as well. It began well before people understood separation of church and state. I remember in school each time someone in authority said "Everyone stand" we knew we were in for a prayer of some sort. Especially at football games. No one ever asked God to help us win but the message was conveyed. If we lost we just prayed harder next game.

[Just One Woman]

17. Been fighting this battle for years

3 of my 4 graduated from Soddy (short for soddy daisy - hill of flowers). Soddy is about 15 miles north of Chattanooga. It is beautiful here but full of teabaggers. These guys are going crazy over this. In the past has been a fairly good school. I had more problem with the bible study classes turning into sunday school. I understand that a group of students have been trying to get this done for several years. I am so very proud of them. Some of the group are graduating this year.

[Peanutcat]

21. Well,

I hope they're prepared for the inevitable death-threats coming their way . . . . .

[Taverner]

26. For those who bash the freethinkers, let me ask you - pray to whom?

If we start every meeting with a prayer to the Christian God, what about the Hindus, Muslims and what not.

Besides, last I checked we were a secular nation

[krabigirl]

27. Exactly. But sadly, it seems that only the Christian prayers are the ones people will defend.

[herbm]

45. I am all for the "what not" leading prayer. Why is this an extreme only for the atheists?

[Taverner]

49. (1) Why should children be forced to pray? How is this anything but religious indoctrination?

(2) How sure are you that a school deep in the heart of the bible belt will have "what not" offering prayer? Even if they wanted to - it won't be so easy of a tast

(3) If you want to make it a true learning experience, why not just have a comparative religion class? Honestly, that's the only way to have an objective class on such a subject.

[herbm]

50. I am against anybody being forced to pray. Who is being forced to pray at that assembly or football

game.

[boppers]

53. People are being forced to listen.

Also see Matthew 6:5:
http://bible.cc/matthew/6-5.htm

[herbm]

63. And this has happened how?

[boppers]

67. By having prayers at public events.

Specifically, government run events.

[callous taoboy]

68. Me, silly, and other like-minded colleagues of mine. Every year at our district's convocation.

That has now been stopped by the ACLU who did a fine job reminding the district that those who receive public monies may not advocate a certain set of relgious beliefs, whether they come in the form of a prayer to Lord God, or the passing out of Bibles, or the announcement to staff of a Bible study group.

[herbm]

89. You've never been forced to do anything in your life. And nobody has ever forced you to listen to

any religeous training at any time, either. You have an impossibly low standard of what it means to be "forced" to do something. I think claiming you been forced to listen to a prayer trivializes the the terrible things people ARE forced to do: slave labor, torture, crimes against the person, "re-education", fight wars, live in polution and so on. Listening to or ignoring two or three minutes of prayer does not even show up on the scale. By the way, I support the ACLU.

[Taverner]

76. Every single player on that team

The way it works in the bible belt is that you do the team prayer, or you don't play. Sometimes they don't enforce it, but deep in the bible belt, at public schools, they do.

And if someone complains, coach just points out 'He didn't have the heart to play that day' and that's that.

[callous taoboy]

66. My very Christian girlfriend agrees with the separation of church / state.

She was glad to hear that our district has been told to stop doing the Christian prayer at our opening convocation.

[defendandprotect]

79. So you want Wiccans and Atheists leading football "prayers" .... ???

:rofl: :rofl:

:rofl: :rofl:

:rofl: :rofl:


As the Native American wisely tells us, the only real prayer is for wisdom --

And -- a "prayer" is an effort to influence the fates.

[DavidDvorkin]

29. The Constitution wins one, for a change:

http://www.chattanoogan.com/articles/article_186726.asp

[defendandprotect]

31. Organized patriarchal religions NEED this "endorsement" ... if kids feel free

to think or NOT think about "god" it is a danger to them!

We should also be more conscious that what we are talking about is the

teaching of male-supremacist religion which teaches the "inferiority" of

the majority gender: FEMALES.

[Doremus]

38. I remember singing "May the Lord Bless You & Keep You" in public school choir practice

everyday!

This was early 1970s, well after the 1962 SCOTUS ruling.


On the list of things requiring attention, this one falls well below the coordinated assault taking place on innumerable fronts against the working class, and slightly ahead of Sarah Palin's new reality show.

I am not religious, btw. I do recognize smoke and mirrors when I see them, in whatever guise.

[defendandprotect]

40. Actually, I don't think it's a small thing ... Organized patriachal religion seeks to

create a mindset of obedience among worshipers -- respect for patriarchal authority.

We need to be folding these hierarchal structures which control our lives -- and

the influence they too often have over government --

See Pelosi and the US Catholic Bishops and a telephone call from Rome at the time of

of Congress' discussions of health care - including reproductive services.

Catholics want reproductive services -- 73%/83% -- all of them -- including CHOICE of

abortion by 51%. The higher numbers are when Latinos/Latinas are included.

HUGE majority of Catholics wanted single-payer government run health care!!


Male-supremacist religions seek government-endorsement any way they can get it --

encouraging organized prayer over school loudspeakers is simply another way to be

legitimized by government.

In the end it is what keeps organized patriarchal religions powerful enough to have strong

influence on our Congress. Sadly, very negative influence!

[herbm]

47. ALL religions are "patriachal"? That's a broad brush, like all Muslims are ______. Whatever terrib

le thing that happened to you happened at the hands of other humans in a church, not Christ.

[Scout]

55. no, not all of them, just the partriarchal ones ... but all the partriarchal ones

teach the same shit.

again, if prayer is so damn important to you, then do it, AT HOME, in your car, at the football game, but keep it to yourself? why do you have to inflict it on everyone else?

[Star]

73. "Whatever terrible things happened to you.."

How many times have I heard this from believers? So many that, when it is finally stated, I know the end of the argument is near b/c those who use this particular phrase are comforting themselves with the thought that those of us who are non-believers have had some traumatic event in our lives that scarred us forever, which the believers have never had to suffer. Just another example of the "holier-than-thou" attitude so many believers display. After that phrase, no debate is possible any longer.

I am not an atheist because something terrible happened to me at the hands of the church. I am an atheist because I finally came to my own understanding of the possible existence of a god - any god. To me, it is not possible that such a being exists. Period.

I have no problem, no hate, no issues with those who choose to believe, but I have found that those who choose to believe have a problem/issues with me.

[callous taoboy]

101. But it adds up, right? Believing in *magic* and making shit up go hand in hand.

[defendandprotect]

78. We have an ALL FEMALE VATICAN somewhere????

[Zoeisright]

107. Exactly. Those human beings did those things in the name of a church.

What about this don't you understand? That is an unbelievably stupid and weak argument. Most of the 'Christians' I have known through my life have been absolute bullies. They are furious for some weird reason, and they KNOW they and ONLY they are right and they fight anyone who opposes them tooth and nail. They whine when they don't get their way and they see ANY effort at fairness as 'persecution'. They are the least 'Christ-like' beings I know. Christianity is patriarchal. If you can't see that, too bad.

[ProudDad]

70. Hear, Hear!!! (n/t)

[Vehl]

86. K&R

“unconstitutional government endorsement of religion.”

I agree. Religion has no place in Public functions/venues/organizations.
Secular democracies are the only way humanity can progress towards a future that is egalitarian

[callous taoboy]

93. Kicking because this needs to be happening regularly.

[callous taoboy]

105. kicking to piss off the god squad....

[and-justice-for-all]

95. Your not suppose to go to school to pray...

your suppose to be there to learn. If you want to pray, then go to a damn church and send your kids to Sunday school.

[yellowcanine]

103. I would hate to be a student at Soddy Daisy High School.

The mind boggles at what opposing fans could do with a name like that at a football game.

[callous taoboy]

104. What, like "Goddy Daisy?"

[Manifestor_of_Light]

113. Santa Fe ISD v. Doe. Loudspeaker prayer at football games unconstitutional.

Facts of the Case:

Prior to 1995, a student elected as Santa Fe High School's student council chaplain delivered a prayer, described as overtly Christian, over the public address system before each home varsity football game. One Mormon and one Catholic family filed suit challenging this practice and others under the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. The District Court enjoined the public Santa Fe Independent School District (the District) from implementing its policy as it stood. While the suit was pending, the District adopted a new policy, which permitted, but did not require, student-initiated and student-led prayer at all the home games and which authorized two student elections, the first to determine whether "invocations" should be delivered at games, and the second to select the spokesperson to deliver them.

After the students authorized such prayers and selected a spokesperson, the District Court entered an order modifying the policy to permit only nonsectarian, nonproselytizing prayer. The Court of Appeals held that, even as modified by the District Court, the football prayer policy was invalid. The District petitioned for a writ of certiorari, claiming its policy did not violate the Establishment Clause because the football game messages were private student speech, not public speech.

Question:

Does the Santa Fe Independent School District's policy permitting student-led, student-initiated prayer at football games violate the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment?
Conclusion:

Yes. In a 6-3 opinion delivered by Justice John Paul Stevens, the Court held that the District's policy permitting student-led, student-initiated prayer at football games violates the Establishment Clause. The Court concluded that the football game prayers were public speech authorized by a government policy and taking place on government property at government-sponsored school-related events and that the District's policy involved both perceived and actual government endorsement of the delivery of prayer at important school events. Such speech is not properly characterized as "private," wrote Justice Stevens for the majority. In dissent, Chief Justice William H. Rehnquist, joined by Justices Antonin Scalia and Clarence Thomas, noted the "disturbing" tone of the Court's opinion that "bristle with hostility to all things religious in public life."

Decisions

Decision: 6 votes for Doe, 3 vote(s) against
Legal provision: Establishment of Religion

[Rage for Order]

114. Bullies

Hey, "national group": suck my balls

[dflprincess]

115. You don't have a problem with government sponsored prayer?

Really?

Personally I think the bullies are those who try to force their religion on everybody else - not everyone who believes wants to be forced to listen to someone else's prayer.

When I was 7 or 8 years old the nun at Catechism told us that we were absolutely not to say the Board of Regents prayer that public schools in New York began their day with because it was not a Catholic prayer. I remember the next day when all us little Catholic kids kept our heads down and tried not to see what the others were doing as we all chickened out and said the prayer. It's an awful thing to be 8 years old and realize you don't have what it takes to be a martyr to the faith. Fortunately, the Supreme Court declared the prayer unconstitutional in 1962.

[Rage for Order]

116. I don't have a problem with students and private citizens praying

The Founding Fathers never meant for religion to be completely eradicated from the public square. George Washington was sworn in on a bible. The Constitutional Convention began with a prayer every day. There are innumerable examples of our Founding Fathers engaging in prayer on government property, both before and after the Constitution was ratified. Were they running afoul of the Constitution they wrote?

[dflprincess]

117. Christian prayers being recited over a loudspeaker at a publc school's

football games or graduation ceremony are in the same vein as the Regent's prayer and are a violation of current Constitutional law.

Washington chose to be sworn in on Bible, he wasn't forced to be but, thanks to the traditon of politicians taking their oath on a Bible, there were members of the religously insane club that thought it was awful & a violation of the Constitution when Keith Ellison used a Koran for his swearing in.

I doubt if there would be many people defending these prayers if the Wiccans were leading them.