Chavez, Ahamadinejad say US is headed for 'the graveyard'

[davidinalameda]

Source: Jerusalem Post

Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez and his Iranian counterpart declared Wednesday they are united in efforts to establish a "new world order" and warned their enemies would be relegated to the "graveyard."

The rhetoric wrapped up Chavez's two-day visit to Iran meant to boost cooperation between the allies in their oil, gas and petrochemical industries.

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said their countries are "united in efforts to establish a new world order" that will eliminate Western dominance over global affairs.

Chavez said any efforts to stop Iran's and Venezuela's progress would fail, and he denounced US "imperialism" saying it is headed for "the graveyard."

Read more: http://www.jpost.com/Headlines/Article.aspx?id=192172

[proteus_lives]

1. These two yahoos are like the kids sitting on the stoop.

Talking trash to whoever walks by.

[Billy Burnett]

93. Cue the oiligarch supporting Chavez bashers.

Hugo Castro
Ahamadinejad
sittin in a tree
K-I-S-S-I-N-G!

[24601]

102. Hah! they're gay! Stone one of them! n/t

[bloomington-lib]

2. I wonder what their plan to create this "new world order" is

[Archae]

3. Hugo groupies in 3-2-1...

'Cuz Hugo can do no wrong, donchu know... :eyes:

[sabrina 1]

14. Lol, and you think that they U.S. is NOT headed toward

third world status due to the actions of the Bush administration and Wall St. criminals? If that is what you think, you have not been paying attention.

Hugo is late in adding his voice to the many others who have been warning about this fact for several years.

But don't let facts stop you from reacting to U.S. propaganda against the leader of an Oil Rich country who had the nerve to nationalize their oil and use the profits for the people who actually own it, rather than hand it over the Global Criminals who have taken down the World Economy and destroyed the lives and countries of millions of innocent people.

Hugo CAN do wrong as can any human, but in the wildest dreams of the Hugo obsessed, propagandized U.S. rightwing, he could never, even if he was actually trying, do the harm that this country has done to itself while in the process of destroying so many others.

Try to avoid falling for distractions. Fox loves it when you buy into the Chavez propaganda from the oil barons.

[Arkana]

18. We survived the War of 1812, Nullification, a civil war that literally

tore the country in half, the military reconstruction of our Union, the assassinations of four Presidents and the in-office deaths of several others, a stock market crash that put almost a third of the country out of work, two World Wars, the bomb and the Cold War, McCarthy, Nixon and Watergate, Ronald Reagan, AND George W. Bush.

And you think an economic recession is going to turn us into Burundi? Hello, hyperbole.

[sabrina 1]

24. Many empires survived many catastrophes but in the end

something became the tipping point and brought them all down. Empires do not have a very long life as history shows. And we are an Empire now.

But no, I do NOT think the financial crisis will bring down this country, but ONLY IF we stop propping up the criminals who are currently running things in this country. And I'm not talking about the government which appears to be impotent at this point.

We can survive the current catastrophes if we start applying the rule of law, to war criminals and to the financial criminals who are still being protected by this government. After which we can begin to rebuild what they tore down. But as long as we continue to bail them out, Hugo may end up being right, because no country can survive what they are costing us, in money, in lives, in the lost trust in this country by the rest of the world. It's up to us isn't it? And so far all we keep doing is bailing out the crooks while they keep on committing crimes. It's like supporting the habit of a drug addict believing him when he says that he really is working on his addiction and just needs one more fix to give him the strength to make the commitment to kick the habit forever. Sooner or later even the most indulgent enabler, finally has enough.

[lonestarnot]

39. +20!

[newspeak]

70. agree, with unfair trade agreements

those corporate elites that have been slowly stripping labor and safety rights. More and more deregulation and carte blanche to war profiteering--our money is being syphoned off shore--we are paying for our own demise--paying money to some of the most sociopathic leeches in the world. There are very few "american" companies left-and fewer corporations who value good, loyal employees. It's all about money and the power it wields.

The Supreme Court also did a major blow to our democratic republic with this newest, corrupt ruling. I'd say in the past eight, nine years they have done more damage to the people and to the constitution. There is no honor among thieves.

[Greyhound]

91. That is both the evidence for and symptom of the collapse of the American Empire.

We ran into an inevitable consequence of rampant criminality throughout the financial industry. Any sane administration would of course address the criminals and outlaw the practices and then we could get about the business of cleaning up the mess.

Unfortunately, we have another administration that feels compelled to cover up and preserve the criminality and to protect the criminals, a hallmark of an empire in decline.

The rest of this sorry scenario is also apparent...
:kick: & R

[LTX]

61. So are you in favor of a "new world order" that is based on

theocracies with clerical dictators, titular if patently rigged elections, and draconian laws targeting women and gays?

[sabrina 1]

94. Of course not which is why I support Chavez

who was one of the first completely democratically elected presidents of Venezuela in elections that were far cleaner than ours, who was not backed by Global Capitalists who for so long backed South American dictators who were brutal to their own people.

He led the movement in S. A. for the independence from Western influenced domination of so many S.A. nations and an end to dictatorships and the theft of these counties' resources.

You are saying than that you continue to support the Reagan era policies towards that region or the world? I am so happy to see them stand up and form their own alliances to protect their countries from ever again being oppressed by Western-backed dictators, and that many U.S. allies, dictators are now being held accountable for the crimes they committed against their own people, the killings, the horrific torture aided and abetted by the CIA and the The School of the Americas which is still very much in business attempting to destablise these emerging democracies.

If you oppose Chavez, and it's hard to know why especially if you are aware of the history of that region, then you support Reagan/Bush and the old Cold War arrogance that claimed the U.S. had the right to steal whatever it wanted, to help torture and oppress any citizen of those countries who dared to stand up for their nations.

We were behind the coup against a very good, democratic leader Allende eg. And if the U.S. could have gotten away with it, Chavez would be dead in 2002. But the people of Venezuela do not want any more of those policies in their country. They went out and brought their elected leader, Chavez, back. Much to the disgust of the Bush crowd who thought they had ousted him and installed yet another puppet government.

Do you know anything about Chavez, Venezuela, South American and the brutal oppressive history of the U.S. towards those people, the poverty created by Global Capitalists, the cruelty, deaths, disappearances, torture, murder of its chosen leaders?

How could anyone NOT support leaders like Chavez in South America now especially progressives. To do otherwise means wishing for them a repeat of the horrendous, cruel oppression they endured in the past.

And if you think the U.S. is out of the business of coups etc. you have only to look at what just happened in Honduras.

I support the right of the people of Venezuela to be free from Western dictatorships, to elect their own leaders, to keep their own resources.

As for your comment about elections, you must be joking. The whole world, including people like Jimmy Carter has been observing the Venezuelan elections for years and have declared them to be estremely democratic, unlike our own.

Seriously, you really need to start studying history before making statements like this.

[LTX]

97. I guess you missed the part about Iran being one of the pillars of

the "new world order" envisioned by Chavez and Ahamadinejad. Neither Iran nor Ahamadinejad are even mentioned in your post. Which is rather odd, since their alliance is what the o/p was about.

And somehow you missed the (I thought) obvious reference to Iran in my description (theocracies, clerics, rigged elections, laws targeting women and gays, hint-hint).

And your ironic defense of Chavez is that "he led the movement in S. A. for...an end to dictatorships," although he's now an unequivocal ally of an indisputable dictatorship with which he wants to partner in a "new world order."

Honestly, watching the defenders of Chavez here is like watching a game of three-card monte.

[sabrina 1]

100. I see you fell for the distraction of

the usual propaganda, 'tie a leader we want ousted together with one we already hate' and no more questions need to be asked. Congratulations for making all that money they spend on demonizing leaders of democratic nations who refuse to hand over their resources, work. The inclusion of Almadinijad was intended to trap people into associations that would result in just what you have done.

I certainly did not include Iran in my post as Iran is a separate issue entirely and the attempt to tie them together in this article was a deceptive but very transparent 'trick' to entrap people who know little about either country to get the desired result of 'killing two birds with one stone'. I don't fall for propaganda, I didn't fall for the Iraq lies either.

You otoh, have completely fallen for that trick.

Iran and Venezuela are both sovereign nations. The only similarity between them is both are oil rich. What a coincidence that the U.S cares so much about them.

Tell me something. How do you feel about the dictator of Uzbekistan eg? Does it bother you that the U.S. has paid tax dollars to support this brutal man condemned everywhere for his treatment of his own people?

And what about Colombia? I never see the Chavez haters even mention our alliance with that corrupt and brutal government, nor even a mention of the genocide committed by its government against its own people.

Has Chavez slaughtered his own citizens? Was he elected democratically or not? Has he not improved the poverty level in his country and the iliteracy level?

And what business is he of ours, of yours? Is the U.S. not the foremost aggressor in the world right now? And how many wars has Iran started, Venezuela, how many people of other nations have they killed?

You need to get your priorities in order and you need to understand that people are not defending Chavez as he needs no defense from us. That is up to the people of his country.

What you are seeing is a reaction to yet more aggressing by the U.S. government against an oil rich country which could end in yet another war. If you supported the Bush policies of war then I can understand why you cooperate with the Global Cartels who are currently attempting to do to Venezuela and Iran, what they did to Iraq.

I think we in the U.S. need to stop minding everyone else's business and start trying to save this country and to keep it from engaging in any more brutal wars against people who have done us no harm, and that includes their laterst target, Iran. Are you in favor of invading that country? I could be wrong but you seem to be making the arguments of those who are.

[LTX]

101. Let's cut to the chase.

I agree that US alliances with dictatorships are bad. Now please explain why Chavez' alliances with dictatorships are good.

[SOS]

79. The propaganda emanates not just from Fox

The richest man in the world, Carlos Slim of Mexico, saved the New York Times from insolvency by investing $250 million through his Banco Inbursa SA.
The Times employs a full-time Chavez basher named Simon Romero.
Romero's reports are 100% negative about Chavez. He has never written one positive thing in his many years of "coverage".

Slim bails out the New York Times:
http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/jan2009/db20090118_331081.htm

Little known in the US are the annual Latin American billionaire meetings known as "Fathers and Sons".

Secret Meeting Of Latin American Billionaires
http://www.forbes.com/2003/05/23/cz_kd_0523mexico.html

So what do the billionaires discuss at their outrageously lavish, top secret meetings?
According to the Colombian Embassy in New York:

"Among the topics expected to be at the center of this year’s discussions (is) the future of Venezuela."

http://www.consuladodecolombiany.com/new_page/prensa/2009/MARZO/03092009.htm

Saudi Arbia chops the heads off "sorcerers" while Obiang in Equatorial Guinea systematically tortures and slaughters his political opponents.
Never a word in the New York Times.
But if Chavez nationalizes a business, he's a front page "dictator". LOL

And a footnote: The NYT recently ran a front page story on the murder rate in Venezuela, dutifully reported by Simon Romero.
Yet the murder rate in Colombia is higher! Not a word from the NYT on that fact.

[Judi Lynn]

87. Don't forget to mention U.S. ally, Islam Karimov, of Uzbekistan, who boils political prisoners alive

And Colombia, with its death squad/narcotrafficking/paramilitary/neo paramilitary connection to the Colombian military, to Uribe and his family over YEARS, to the Colombian Senate, to Uribe's entire cabinet, with its mass graves, even crematoria used to get rid of the evidence even faster, good old Colombia is this country's THIRD largest foreign aid recipient, a total black hole sucking up well over $500,000,000.00 annually, has been lauded, clapped on the back, its President even getting his medal of freedom award from _{George W. Bush.} Lovely way to spend hard-earned U.S. tax dollars.

http://www.cbc.ca.nyud.net:8090/gfx/images/news/photos/2009/01/13/alvaro-uribe-cp-6085007.jpg http://www.caracaschronicles.com.nyud.net:8090/userfiles/Uribe_Bush.jpg

http://avatarfarm.com.nyud.net:8090/avatarimages/movies/laurelandhardyavatar.gif

[Atomic_rooster]

104. It's all same politics Repub/Dem We're NOT the World's Police. Get Out!

[sabrina 1]

96. Thank you, I am familiar with Simon Romero's biased reporting

and never bother reading anything he says anymore.

I was not aware of the bailout of the NYT. Our media has to be the worst in the free world. No wonder you see people here joining in the propaganda against Chavez. You'd think on a democratic board people would be a bit more skeptical of the MSM especially after the eight years of lies they helped propagate to get us into two wars.

[Name removed]

105. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SOS]

4. The use of the future tense is peculiar

Didn't Bush and the Wall Street banks accomplish this two years ago?

[Pavulon]

5. He is busy fluffing the nut in iran, does that mean his domestic power generation

and milk supply is all fixed? The graveyard is in the hills around Caracas.

[Ian David]

6. You have no chance to survive make your time HA HA HA HA

[hendo]

30. I thought all his base belonged to US.

[No Elephants]

52. LOL!

[Peace Patriot]

7. Jerusalem Post, eh? I think I'll wait for objective translations.

This article contradicts itself. First, it says (without full quotation) that Chavez and Ahmadinejad said that "their enemies will be relegated to the 'graveyard.'" "Enemies" is not in quotes. (They both said this? They spoke together at the same time? And WHAT did "they" actually say?)

Then the article says that Chavez said (also without full quotation) that "US" (not in quotes) "'IMPERIALISM'" (in quotes) "is headed for" (not in quotes) "'the graveyard'" (in quotes).

Manipulations like this--chopped up, selective quotation--are a sign of misquotation. Good journalistic practice is, if you are going to quote somebody, at least give them a full sentence, to express their idea in their own words.

As to the latter sentiment--IF it is an accurate quote--I tend to agree. U.S. imperialism is very bad news, indeed. It is the Forever War. It is our ruination. We should not be invading other countries and slaughtering tens of thousands of innocent people, to steal their oil. We should not be breaking international laws that we helped to create, by IMPERIAL wars, torture and other horrors. That IS imperialism--aggression, domination, imposing our will by force.

As for a "new world order," I don't like the phrase. It smells too much of Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld ("Project for a New American Century"). And I don't know that Chavez or Ahmadinejad used the phrase. I don't trust this translation. But I do agree that there is a "new order in the world" consisting of multilateral resistance to U.S. domination. That is unquestionably true. The Bush Junta cost the U.S. much respect in the world as well as busting our economy.

Bear in mind that the president of Brazil, Lula da Silva, also visited Iran, and hosted Ahmadinejad in Brazil. Chavez is not alone in seeking a multilateral world and in declaring Latin American independence from U.S. foreign policy and other dictates. Bear in mind also that Iran sells oil to Russia, China and others. We need to face this reality that the U.S. is a declining power, much like the late Roman Empire, due to the miserable, militaristic, violent, lawless, undemocratic and extremely corrupt policies of our leaders. It could have been otherwise. And maybe it still can be otherwise. We are in a "decline." I won't predict a "fall"--because I have never lost faith in the American people and because our democratic tradition is very strong. But we are in peril--as a country and a democracy. Will we create a better course for our nation? Will we correct the course we have been on? Will we throw off militarism and our corporate rulers and war profiteers, and restore our best, most cherished values--fairness, justice, the common good?

I hope we lose the "imperialism." I hope it gets buried for good. It is NOT us. It is an imposition by the very greedy and the very rich and powerful.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ronnie624]

40. Thank you for posting on Democratic Underground.

Your messages are rare nuggets of lucidity, logic and truth.

[Posteritatis]

9. Trolls troll, film at 11. (nt)

[davidinalameda]

12. you're calling me a troll?

[Posteritatis]

22. Ack! No, sorry! I meant those two. (nt)

[davidinalameda]

23. LOL

all is forgiven

:toast:

:rofl:

[ixion]

10. putting the word imperialism in quotes when referring to the US is disingenuous.

I believe the US has show it has every intention of acting in an imperial manner. What else is Pax Americana? That is imperial by definition.

[ProudDad]

35. Imperial since 1607...

The USAmerikan Empire...

[No Elephants]

53. We were latecomers.

[The abyss]

11. Not a bad analogy

The US government is far above the eyeball stage of debt.

There is no manufacturing base onto which they can fall back. There is no engineering, nor “new technology”, to seed a future. All outsourced long ago.

The people that created this great nation are spinning in their graves. We have become a people that invade essentially helpless countries for purposes of occupation and theft of natural resources; no different than the Nazis of the last century.

I hope that the people of the United States wake up before it is too late to save anything of the ideals that created this nation.

[boppers]

47. I'll let Google, Microsoft, Cisco, Apple (etc.) know.

I hear that over in China, they even invented a global computer network!

:sarcasm:

[LTX]

64. Ah, yes, the persistent myth that the US has "no manufacturing base."

http://www.census.gov/manufacturing/m3/adv/pdf/durgd.pdf

Manufacturing is more than assembly of the plastic baubles on the shelves of your local Target.

[davidinalameda]

13. see the Chavez apologists have hit the unrecommend button

keep up the good work folks

[sabrina 1]

16. Thanks for reminding me. I have unrecommended this propaganda

Are you aware that you are spreading bought and paid for propaganda meant to do what was done before the War in Iraq was approved by a majority of the foolish, easily influenced by lies, American public?

Just what does anyone have to apologize for in terms of Chavez? What exactly has he done to this country other than agree with the general concensus of the world's population that his country is clearly on a downward slide which doesn't seem to have a bottom? Has he threatened to send some Mushroom Clouds our way? Oh wait, they already used that on that other Oil Rich country.

The stupidity of the Chavez hatred is beyond belief. Only in American, but then only in America was $4 million dollars spent on spreading hate for Chavez. We have quite a few Judith Millers ready to write negative articles about leaders of Oil Rich countries who dare to not want to hand their oil over to US.

[Catherina]

15. And now for the entire quote as opposed to right wing snippets

...

Venezuela and Iran have denounced US imperialism and called for a "new world order", saying they are united in trying to eliminate western dominance in global affairs.

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, the Iranian president, and visiting Venezuelan counterpart, Hugo Chavez, were quoted by Iranian media as calling their relationship a "strategic alliance".

"We are united and determined to end the current unjust which dominates the world and replace it with a new world order based on justice," said Ahmadinejad on Wednesday.

"Iran and Venezuela are united to establish a new world order based on humanity and justice.

"We believe that the only result of bullying movements of imperialism all around the world, and especially in Latin America, will be the fast decline of imperial power," Ahmadinejad said at a joint news conference, referring to the United States.

...
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2010/10/201010210245244304.html

...

[Arkana]

19. Yeah, because announcing an alliance with fucking IRAN is SO much better

for the so-called liberal, transparent hero Hugo Chavez!

[sabrina 1]

83. Most South American and other nations are allied or seeking

an alliance with Iran. It is business. They simply have better ways of getting the oil they need than we do. We raid countries with bombs and torture etc when they refuse to just hand over their resources. China, Russia, South America et al, make deals and sign contracts with them.

Just because the U.S. has made enemies everywhere doesn't mean other countries have to destroy their own national interests.

The absolute hubris expressed in posts like yours, that just because the U.S. is still on the path of solving all its problems with bombs, that other countries should simply fall in line and back us up. is stunning.

South America, eg, has finally gotten out from under the grip of Western power with its brutal puppet governments and replaced them, country by country with Democratic leaders, like Chavez and others. We helped topple Honduras' democratic government as it's still our criminal policy to brutally stop democracies from growing anywhere as democracies are not as compliant as dictatorships.

Europe is beginning to throw out its neo-liberal puppet leaders also, with Iceland leading the way, now prosecuting its U.S. friendly PM who helped bring their country down.

The rest of Europe are up in arms over what U.S. economic influence has done to their countries and hopefully will toss out their own governments, as Laten America has done.

You need to look beyond the U.S. media to get a picture of how the U.S. is now viewed not just in Latin America. We were hoping, and so were they, that getting rid of Bush would begin to get the U.S. on track to becoming a real partner for peace in the world, but hopes of that are fading abroad.

You are part of a very tiny minority which exists mostly in the U.S. who cares one bit what Chavez says about the U.S. which most of the world's population agrees with. He is popular in his own country and elsewhere, just not here on the far right and now it seems among a small number on the 'left'.

[Peace Patriot]

26. Thank you so much, Catherina! I could smell the mis-quotes in this JP article.

And the full quotes, of course, are very different. They stress a world of justice and humanity. Our corporate rulers and war profiteers are dishing out war, torture and poverty. And I don't just mean U.S. corporate rulers and war profiteers, but all of the disconnected entities--multinational corporations and multinational war profiteers--with loyalty to no one. Some got their start here, exploiting our infrastructure, educational system, labor and whatever else they could exploit, then moved their headquarters to Dubai or Singapore, wherever they can get away with murder, or moved manufacturing and jobs to Latin America, China, Southeast Asia-- wherever they can exploit cheap labor. Some are still U.S.-based but with no loyalty to this country, to our people or to democracy. Others are UK or EU-launched or based. Most are "western powers." The U.S. multinationals are generally the worst, though, as to war, bullying, stealing and fascist policies of every kind--corporations like Bechtel, which tried to steal Bolivia's water, and Exxon Mobil, which tried to steal Venezuela's oil, and Halliburton, which is still prospering from our war machine, Chiquita, which hired rightwing death squads in Colombia to take care of their "labor problem," and the banksters which have looted us blind, and the rest of them. These, our true rulers, are the ones that these critics--Chavez and Ahmadinejad--and talking about, not us, "we the people" here, but the superstructure of power over us and over our military. Our instincts, as a people, are for peace, justice, fairness and compassion. Our happiness resides in our communities, in our children, in our small businesses, in our professions, in our work ethic, in our welcome to immigrants, in our multicultural diversity and creativity and in the common good. We have been overridden. And I think it is damn sad that that is the case. Militarism and the U.S. war machine and the huge corporations that exploit workers and despoil the environment do not represent us. Bigots and those who exploit bigotry to "divide and conquer" do not represent us. Those who want a U.S. empire the world over do not represent us.

Thanks for providing the full quotes. We need to listen to and understand these criticisms. I don't often agree with Ahmadinejad but I agree with him on this. The imperial ambitions, greed and violence of the few--the rich, the corporate, the conscienceless--are doing us in. They are destroying our country and our democracy and greatly harming other people as well. Chavez, I often agree with. He has been making this criticism for some time, and I don't have any reservations about his motives in doing so. He is speaking for much of Latin America, and for many Latin American leaders. They are sick of U.S. interference. The U.S. does not own the western hemisphere. Nor does it own the Middle East, although it is trying to own both. I think Ahmadinejad speaks from fear. That is why I have some reservations about his motives. Chavez I do not think is speaking, or making alliances, out of fear, but rather out of a genuine desire to help create a peaceful and just world. Lula da Silva has also tried working with Iran. They and other Latin American leaders want PEACE. They don't want any more U.S. wars. They want a peaceful, balanced world in which their people can prosper.

[Catherina]

62. +1 n/t

:hi:

[hendo]

31. The last thing we want is Ahmadinejad's brand of justice

Same goes for Chavez.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hendo]

65. And the only response that gets is a deleted one.

Gotta love the mods, I probably would have enjoyed the flaming.

[sufrommich]

50. Ahmadinejad wants a world based on humanity and justice?

He better clean his own house first.

[sabrina 1]

106. Yeah, like the U.S. which also says it wants a world based

on humanity and justice! After we kill as many citizens of other countries as we can get away with. Testing our bombs and drones to see how they work! It's business, and it's PATRIOTIC to kill for oil and profit and power.

Ahmadinejad has a long way to go before he catches up with the mess we've made in our own house and other people's houses.

It might be a good idea for Americans to just keep their judgements of others to themselves, and clean up our own house first.

[Arkana]

17. Why people continue to defend Chavez is beyond me.

Does the US have problems? Absofuckinglutely yes it does. Are we going to melt down like the Roman Empire? No.

And as for Ahmacrazyfuck...well...

[HuckleB]

21. It's odd.

There was a time when I supported the guy, overall. But it does not take much too look at what he's done over time. One has to challenge oneself, and following Chavez as blindly as some do is the opposite of challenging oneself. It's the opposite of thinking, when it comes down to it.

[hendo]

32. I am amazed at the size of Chavez's cheerleading squad here on DU

[sufrommich]

51. +1.

[sabrina 1]

77. People who continue to atttack an oil producing country

who has done nothing to this country other than refuse to hand over its oil, and to try to, and to succeed in lifting the poor out of poverty and illiteracy is beyond me. Not so long ago it was only rightwingers who trashed South American countries, but we knew the reasons for that.

The propaganda from the Western press, bought and paid for by the U.S. which just can't accept any other country standing up to them, refusing to hand over their resources, has begun to work on a small segment of the 'left' now that we have a democratic administration.

But the country next door, Colombia, with its mass graves (any mass graves during Chavez' time?) is our ALLY and the same small Chavez haters on the 'left' have zero problem with the government which actually IS corrupt and brutal to its own people. This is propaganda at work. The war criminals are good, those who oppose them are bad.

I have to say I did NOT think it would work on the left. However, the anti-war movement has disappeared also since Democrats took over, as has the opposition to torture, the support for committees to look into the activities of Karl Rove, Gonzales, Cheney et al. And not a word from the 'left'.

Chavez is doing fine for his own people. I recall cheering on blogs like this when he went after Bush, about whom he was right. And outrage over the attempted CIA backed coup.

But $4 million in progaganda money works. It worked on Iraq, why wouldn't try it again? And right here on DU we see how well it works. No real research, just links to the same old, now familiar negative press generally given to those countries who own resources the U.S. wants to control.

[HuckleB]

20. It's like a couple of middle school bullies who skipped class yucking it up before their first bowl.

Idiots.

(And, no, I am not dissing anyone's first bowl, or any bowl for that matter.)

[sabrina 1]

80. You have misidentified the bullies in this scenario.

Has Venezuela attempted a coup of one of our Presidents?

Has Iran threatened the U.S. with nuclear war?

Did Iraq have WMDs and mushroom clouds coming our way? Did we illegally destroy that country and slaughter over one million of its citizens, torture them, maim untold numbers and cause the maiming of future generations?

How about Honduras?

Americans live in such a bubble created by their own Media, keeping them ignorant of the way the rest of the world now views this country and its CIA backed attempted coups in South America, its constant threats against Iran to start another war there, its rape and pillage of two countries and its continuing slaughter of innocents in Pakistan and Afghanistan.

The nationalism that causes the blindness to the views of the rest of the world towards this country has always been a feature of the far right. When this country is criticized by foreign leaders, they go ballistic. But on the left? They truly have begun to blind the entire country. Which ironically is only likely to make the predictions of the downfall of this country even more likely.

There's no real outrage over our war crimes, but boy can we get outraged when some foreign leader dares to criticize us even if it is a democratically, popular leader in his own country, whose life we were willing to take because he really did represent his own people and refused to become a puppet for this country.

However when you visit other nations, most of them agree with Chavez' criticisms of the U.S. He extended a hand of peace to this country. He is not the bully. It was slapped down. I am hoping one day that the majority of Americans will educate themselves about their history past and present, and will stand up against their bullying government and try to restore this democracy to some semblance of a peaceful nation, rather than what it is now, the country, according to worldwide polls, most feared although not respected, by the rest of the world.

[Judi Lynn]

86. We do know who the bullies are by now, absolutely.

http://cryptome.org.nyud.net:8090/brp/pict20.jpg

School Yard bullies? The torture-loving, mass murdering part certainly matches.
It's almost entertainment watching them throw themselves right back daily to reiterate the recycled ((((((( spin ))))))), as if anyone really believes it.

It seems almost harder to NOT understand what has happened than to go to the trouble to look, listen, THINK, research in order to get the truth for oneself.

Thanks for your comments. It takes courage to continue advocating truth in the face of determined, sustained, driven disinformation specialists.

[Taverner]

25. Why do folks have to look at Chavez in a Good v Evil sort of way?

I mean, he did some really good things. He did some really bad things.

He like to bellow in a bellicose way sometimes.

He speaks right to the heart other times.

[Crunchy Frog]

27. He's the leader of some other country. I'm more concerned with my own county's

leadership.

[Dreamer Tatum]

28. Because on DU, you are either good or evil, period.

I thought that was clear.

[No Elephants]

54. In Oz, too.

[hendo]

33. True, but imo the bad out weighs the good

He isn't evil, just wrong.

[hendo]

29. Surprise surprise! 2 fascist thugs want to create a "new world order"

now where have we heard that one before?

[ProudDad]

37. Fascists jail and Kill Socialists

NOT the other way around...

Time for you to study up or you'll further display your ignorance... :eyes:

[boppers]

48. February 4th, 1992.

What was that about "study up"?

[No Elephants]

56. What's your point? A few Socialists here and there may overthrow a failed neoliberal regime

now and again?

[hendo]

67. So you support violent upheaval by Fascist rulers?

You do realize Chavez is a Fascist, right? He is a Fascist in Socialist clothing. How else do you explain the atrocities he has committed, or the fact that he pushed for the removal of term limits.

In a functioning democracy term limits on the country's leader serve to ensure continued democratic progress. Heck, even Putin knew that a time would come when he had to step down. Chavez is an ego-maniacal fool.

[Judi Lynn]

68. In a functioning democracy the people elect the person they feel best qualified.

Our own country had NO term limits until after FDR died in office, in his FOURTH TERM, and the Republicans, determined to make sure another successful, beloved Democrat never served that long, leaped to limit terms of office.

That's OUR OWN HISTORY, as modified by the true fascists of this country.

Leave Venezuela's choices to Venezuelans. They will opt not to elect him by wide majorities when they feel he no longer serves the people of their country well. It's THEIR CHOICE, not to be determined by right-wing idiots here.

[hendo]

78. ah, but he pushed to repeal term limits. NT

[Judi Lynn]

82. Why don't you condemn the other countries which don't have term limits for their presidents or prime

ministers, anyway? What difference does it make? Why would it obsess you?

Did you have anything to say when Colombia's President's party BRIBED senators to get them to vote for extending term limits so Uribe could run again? He didn't take any chances on leaving it up to the people for a vote.

OUR COUNTRY HAD NO TERM LIMITS IN THE BEGINNING. The reason we do have limits now is because the slimy, underhanded, fascist, "organized money" Republicans of that era, the same ones who attempted to overthrow Roosevelt found a way to end the original arrangement made by the founding fathers of the country, to completely bar the door for any future Democrat to be able to create multiple society-advancing solutions to poverty, joblessness, and hopelessness.

[bainz]

98. nice image!

[hendo]

66. Fascism is also big on the state run industries. Maybe you need to read up on fascism.

Don't mess with a PhD in Political Science.

[ProudDad]

88. Ah, that explains your obvious ignorance of the subject (n/t)

[Hassin Bin Sober]

38. PNAC?

[ProudDad]

34. So do most economists who don't have their heads up their asses...

They agree that U.S.America is headed for the "graveyard"...

So do I...

[sufrommich]

55. You could buy some Apocalypse food insurance from

Glenn Beck if it would make you feel better.I hear the beef stroganoff is to die for.

[No Elephants]

57. To die for, to die from, potato, pahtahto

[ProudDad]

90. Logic Error!

Unresponsive, irrelevant, snarky and stupid...

A four-fer... :eyes:

[Turbineguy]

41. Chavez

needs to sell high-sulfur oil in a low-sulfur world.

[classysassy]

42. How many countries have Chavez invaded?

[boppers]

49. How many has he threatened to invade?

Honduras and Columbia come to mind.

[No Elephants]

58. 'Cause threatening to invade is no different from actually invading?

Oh, those ever-moving goalposts!

[Judi Lynn]

63. Provide links for your claims. In the meantime explain the recurrent episodes

of Colombian paramilitaries appearing in Venezuela, one time well over 100, living at the ranch of Cuban "exile" Venezuelan Roberto Alonso, near Caracas, himself the pusher of violent anti-Chavez protests known as the "Guarimbas."

These men acknowledged they were hired to get into Miraflores and assassinate Hugo Chavez, hired by the right-wing opposition.

Many of us are not likely to forget the head of Colombia's D.A.S., Jorge Noguera had participated in a plan to assassinate Hugo Chavez, and Colombia's President Alvaro Uribe was obligated to spend six hours in a meeting to apologize to Hugo Chavez over the fact his head of Colombian security had been involved in a plot to kill him.

Just go right ahead and provide evidence for your claims Hugo Chavez has threatened to invade Honduras and Colombia. You'd be educating the progressives here who would otherwise never believe something which makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

[ChangoLoa]

69. Those men acknowledged they were hired to assassinate Chavez in exchange of their freedom.

No trial, as usual.

Official version: 100+ men in military uniforms wanted to assassinate Chavez by marching (?!) into the presidential palace in central Caracas with their rifles.

What about the armored vehicles, the tanks, the helicopters and the very well trained, experienced and equipped Presidential Guard? What about the thousands National Guards in Caracas? Not to talk about the police forces and the militias...

And you say one hundred men with rifles.....?!


Do you really buy that story?

[Judi Lynn]

72. Many of us researched this and discussed it over the years, absolutely.

The Venezuelan elite imports soldiers
by Marta Harnecker
May 23, 2004

~snip~
Since 'the conspiracies against Venezuela do not end with the capture of mercenaries in Caracas,' there must be many other infiltrators in other areas of the country; since this is not an isolated action, but one whose efforts to stop the process continue, one can reach but only one conclusion: it is necessary to prepare oneself for self-defense. This is why the President considered it opportune to take advantage of the occasion and to announce three strategic lines for defending the country. The most radical proposal was a call for the population to massively participate in the defense of the nation.

A week earlier, on the 9th of May, on the outskirts of Caracas, a paramilitary force was discovered, dressed in field uniforms. Later, more were found, raising the total to 130, leaving open the possibility that there are still more in the country. The three Colombian paramilitary leaders of the group are members of the Autonomous Self-Defense Forces (AUC) in Northern Santander state in Colombia.

Some of the captured Colombian fighters have a long history as members of paramilitary forces. Others are reservists of the Colombian army and yet others were specifically recruited for the task in Venezuela and were surely tricked. Among these there are several who are minors.

A colonel of the Venezuelan air force was also detained, as well as seven officers of the National Guard. Among those implicated in the plot is a group of civilians headed by the Cuban Roberto Alonso, creator of the 'guarimbas,'<1> and Gustavo Quintero Machado, a Venezuelan, both who are currently wanted by the Venezuelan justice system.

More:
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=5579

http://www.embavenez-us.org.nyud.net:8090/uploaded_pics/158_2.jpg http://www.embavenez-us.org.nyud.net:8090/uploaded_pics/158_1.jpg

Colombian paramilitaries captured at a ranch owned by Cuban right-wing “exile” Roberto Alonso
Published on Monday, May 17,
by the Agence France Presse
Thousands Protest Colombian Paramilitary Presence in Venezuela
Chavez to Set up 'People's Militia'

President Hugo Chavez announced his government would establish "people's militias" to counter what he called foreign interference after an alleged coup plot by Colombian paramilitaries Caracas claims was financed by Washington.

Chavez also said he would boost the strength of Venezuela's armed forces as part of a new "anti-imperialist" phase for his government.

"Each and every Venezuelan man and woman must consider themselves a soldier," said Chavez.

"Let the organization of a popular and military orientation begin from today."

The president's announcement came a week after authorities arrested 88 people described as Colombian paramilitaries holed up on property belonging to a key opposition figure.

More:
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0517-04.htm



Barracs at the property of opposition activist
Robert Alonso where Colmbian paramilitaries
lived for 46 days

12.30pm update
Colombian paramilitaries arrested in Venezuela

Jeremy Lennard and agencies
Monday May 10, 2004

Venezuelan police have arrested more than 70 Colombian paramilitary fighters who were allegedly plotting to strike against the government in Caracas, according to the country's president, Hugo Chávez.
Opposition leaders, however, were quick to dismiss the president's claim, calling the raids on a farm less than 10 miles from the capital a ruse to divert attention from their efforts to oust Mr Chávez in a recall vote.

During his weekly radio and TV broadcast, Hello Mr President, Mr Chávez said that 53 paramilitary fighters were arrested at the farm early on Sunday and another 24 were picked up after fleeing into the countryside.
The country's security forces were uncovering additional clues and searching for more suspects, he said, adding that the arrests were proof of a conspiracy against his government involving Cuban and Venezuelan exiles in Florida and neighbouring Colombia.

More:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/may/10/venezuela.jeremylennard

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com.nyud.net:8090/images/2004/05/paramilitares-baruta5.jpg

The paramilitaries were wearing Venezuela military uniforms.

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com.nyud.net:8090/images/2004/05/paramilitares-baruta2.jpg

One of the paramilitaries gave details of the opposition's
plans, but asked that his face not be seen fearing
retaliations against his family in Colombia

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com.nyud.net:8090/images/2004/05/paramilitares-baruta.jpg

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com.nyud.net:8090/images/2004/05/paramilitares-baruta-barracas.jpg

Barracs at the property of opposition activist Robert Alonso
located in the outskirts of Caracas. Colombian paramilitaries
lived there for 46 days in preparation for attacks on military bases.


Three Venezuelan Officers and 27 Colombians Sentenced for Assassination Plot
A Venezuelan military court sentenced three Venezuelan military officers and 27 Colombians to two to nine years of prison for plotting an assault on Venezuela’s presidential palace and the assassination of President Hugo Chavez.Another 73 Colombians and 3 Venezuelan officers, who had also been suspected of participating in the plot, were freed after spending 17 months in prison.

118 Colombians were captured in May 2004 on a ranch just outside of Caracas, wearing Venezuelan military fatigues. Many of them appeared to be Colombian paramilitary fighters who had been recruited for a mission in Venezuela to attack the Chavez government and to kill the president. Six Venezuelan officers were also arrested in the course of the investigation.

Some of the Colombians were peasants who had been lured to come to Venezuela with the promise of jobs. Upon arriving, though, they were forced to engage in paramilitary training exercises and were forbidden to leave the ranch. 18 of the Colombians were released immediately after the capture and returned to Colombia because they were minors between 15 and 17 years. The ranch belongs to Roberto Alonso, a prominent Cuban-Venezuelan opposition activist. The highest level officer to be sentenced was General Ovidio Poggioli, who had been charged with military rebellion and was sentenced to 2 years and ten months of prison. The other two Venezuelan officers are Colonel Jesús Farias Rodríguez and Captain Rafael Farias Villasmil, who were each sentenced to nine years of prison. The 27 Colombians were each sentenced to six years prison.

When the group of Colombians were first arrested, many opposition leaders argued that the government had staged the arrests, in order to make the opposition look bad. They pointed out that no weapons were found with the paramilitary fighters and that the whole operation looked far too amateurish to have any chance of success. Also, it was argued that it is practically impossible to transport 120 Colombian paramilitary fighters undetected all the way from Colombia to Caracas, considering that there are numerous military control points along the way.

More:
http://www.voltairenet.org/article130297.html


Venezuela's Chavez pardons Colombian prisoners accused in plot
The Associated Press
Published: August 30, 2007

CARACAS, Venezuela: President Hugo Chavez on Thursday pardoned dozens of Colombians imprisoned in Venezuela on charges of involvement in an alleged 2004 plot against his government.

The order to free the 41 prisoners took effect with its publication in the government's official gazette that dismissed their convictions on charges of military rebellion.

Chavez announced his decision to free the prisoners last week as a goodwill gesture as he tries to help broker an unrelated prisoner and hostage exchange between Colombia's government and leftist rebels.

In May 2004, 118 Colombians were arrested at a ranch outside Caracas. Authorities said they were wearing Venezuelan military uniforms and were suspected of belonging to paramilitary group that was plotting to create chaos in the country and assassinate Chavez.

More:
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/08/30/america/LA-GEN-Venezuela-Colombia.php

http://images.usatoday.com.nyud.net:8090/Wires2Web/20070901/434845792_Venezuela_Colombia_Prisonersx.jpg

Three Colombian prisoners, arrested three years ago in an alleged plot against the Venezuelan government, wait at a military base in San Antonio, Venezuela, Saturday, Sept. 1, 2007, after being pardoned by President Hugo Chavez. The 27 prisoners, who were freed Saturday, were among more than 100 Colombians arrested in 2004 on accusations of plotting to destabilize the government and assassinate President Chavez. (AP Photo/Howard Yanes)
Venezuela frees Colombian prisoners
Posted 9/1/2007 8:35 PM

By Howard Yanes, Associated Press Writer

SAN ANTONIO, Venezuela — More than two dozen Colombian prisoners arrested three years ago in an alleged plot against President Hugo Chavez were freed Saturday in a goodwill gesture he hopes will help facilitate a prisoner exchange in Colombia.
The 27 Colombians who boarded a bus to return home after being pardoned by Chavez were among more than 100 men arrested three years ago on accusations of plotting to stage a rebellion and assassinate the Venezuelan leader.

In a speech in Caracas, Chavez said he expects to meet soon with a high-ranking representative of the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, or FARC, to arrange a possible exchange of hundreds imprisoned guerrillas for about 45 prominent rebel-held hostages.

More:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/topstories/2007-09-01-434845792_x.htm

[Bacchus39]

71. Chavez threatens military action over Honduras coup link

here you go. it wasn't too difficult to find


http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE55R1S820090628

[Judi Lynn]

73. Easy to find? What kept you from being able to read it?

Chavez threatens military action over Honduras coup
By Frank Jack Daniel and Enrique Andres Pretel

CARACAS | Sun Jun 28, 2009 5:50pm EDT

(Reuters) - Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez on Sunday put troops on alert after a coup in Honduras and said he would respond militarily if his envoy to the Central American country was kidnapped or killed.

Chavez said Honduran soldiers took away the Cuban ambassador and left the Venezuelan ambassador on the side of a road after beating him during the army's coup against his leftist ally, Honduran President Manuel Zelaya.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE55R1S820090628

What kind of reaction would you imagine would any country's President have in this situation?

[Bacchus39]

75. here is more Judy

The socialist Chavez has in the past threatened to use his armed forces in the region but never followed through. He said that if a new government is sworn in after the coup it would be defeated.

"We will bring them down, we will bring them down, I tell you," he said, while hundreds of red-shirted supporters gathered outside Venezuela's presidential palace in solidarity with Zelaya.



why do you like that idiot?

[Judi Lynn]

76. I found this part interesting, from the same Rotters article:

The United States supported a number of military coups in Central America during the Cold War and used Honduras as a base for its counter-insurgency operations in the region in the 1980s.

Who has the violent history in the area, any guesses?

[boppers]

99. Look over here!

Ignore this hand, I'm waving this other one with great flourish!

:eyes:

I know you keep up on South American news, so I won't bother with googling for you.

[ProudDad]

89. Wait, I know that one! That would be NONE! (n/t)

[Akoto]

43. Iran, Venezuela leaders seek 'new world order'

Source: Associated Press

TEHRAN, Iran (AP) -- The leaders of Iran and Venezuela hailed what they called their strong strategic relationship on Wednesday, saying they are united in efforts to establish a "new world order" that will eliminate Western dominance over global affairs.

Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and visiting Venezuelan counterpart, Hugo Chavez, watched as officials from both countries signed 11 agreements promoting cooperation in areas including oil, natural gas, textiles, trade and public housing.

Among the agreements, Venezuela's state oil company Petroleos de Venezuela SA said the South American country was forming a joint shipping venture with Iran to aid in delivering Venezuelan crude oil to Europe and Asia. It said in a statement that the agreement for a joint venture also would help supply Iran "due to its limited refining capacity."

Both presidents denounced U.S. "imperialism" and said their opponents will not be able to impede cooperation between Iran and Venezuela.

Read more: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/ML_IRAN_VENEZUELA?SITE=ORBAK&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

[DJ13]

44. See? GHW Bush should have copyrighted that

How original!

[RufusTFirefly]

45. Sorry, but Hitler used the phrase even before Poppy did. n/t

[Turbineguy]

46. New Order

Empty Plates

[No Elephants]

59. The concept is from the Biblical book of Revelation. (The ruler will be the anti-Christ.)

[ozone_man]

60. Seems like stating the obvious

though it's hard to determine what they actually said from this poor reporting.

It's obvious to me that the U.S. is headed for the graveyard. Endless war, endless bailouts for Wall Street, mortgage foreclosures, high unemployment, reckless monetary policy, huge deficits and national debt, threatening social security,... One would have to not be paying attention to not understand that we are seeing the decline of the American empire.

[bvar22]

74. The sad thing is....they are correct.

As long as the USA continues to finance our Armies abroad by borrowing money from Red China and cutting social programs at home, we will remain an Empire in Decline until we hit bottom.

That IS the undeniable truth.
Crazy or not, they are simply pointing out that the Emperor wears no clothes.

[Greyhound]

92. It is unfortunate that 'we' forced Venezuela to go to the Iranians for their arms.

I'm guessing that Chavez would have preferred to stick with us for his nation's supplies, but our complicity in global destabilization and backing the most criminal regime in the area made that impossible. Likewise due to their fairly precarious position, the Russians can't deal with him directly, so the Iranian government serves as intermediary.

[LTX]

107. Iran is supplying arms to Venezuela? What arms? n/t

[Mudoria]

81. Laurel and Hardy Live!

[sabrina 1]

85. Well, that's a substantive comment.

Propaganda works.

And yes, it is too bad that they, among many others, are right. I hope we can save this country from the fate of all the Empires that came and fell before it. Sometimes you get the best advice from those who are not afraid to give it.

[killbotfactory]

84. Only the US is allowed to have strategic alliances with shady regimes!

Outragous!

[classysassy]

95. The American military fight to secure

land and other minerals in South America,it's been happening for years our uninformed citizens are fed a bunch of lies fed to them b y a compliant media that's owned by criminals that steal the resources of the countries with the help of the local criminals that would sell their mothers for the American dollar,in most cases we the public are stuck with bill. Those that defend the intrusion of the American business men,AKA crooks are just as guilty as the intruders.I find it laughable that we can go around the world starting wars and claim it's in our national interest,which is the buzz word for invading countries when we don't agree with their duly elected leaders.Don't accuse me of being Un American,I love this country,that's the reason I hate the action of some of our past administrations for their heavy handed policies.

[Name removed]

103. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Old Troop]

108. Aren't we all? Eventually.