Mormon Parents Rejected For Scout Leadership Post

[BolivarianHero]

Source: Associated Press (via NPR)

A Presbyterian church was happy to have Jeremy and Jodi Stokes as Cub Scout leaders, at least until officials there found out they are Mormons and told them they would have to step down because the church does not consider them real Christians.

The Stokeses enrolled their sons as Scouts at Christ Covenant Church, a Presbyterian congregation about 10 miles from Charlotte, N.C., then expressed interest in volunteering as leaders. Church officials were initially thrilled earlier this month, the Stokeses said, until they saw on the couple's application forms that they belong to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

After two Scout meetings, the Stokeses were told their sons, 6 and 8 years old, could remain in their packs, but the parents couldn't serve as leaders.



Read more: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=130682153

---

So let me get this straight: Collectively, the Boy Socuts of America have a Federal Charter, receive government money, and receive privileged access to publicly-owned facilities and yet certain troops are allowed to discriminate based on religion? I was well aware of the organisation's policy against atheists and homosexuals (which is BSA-wide), but I had no idea that individual troops had autonomy to discriminate on the basis of religion.

Anyone who doesn't believe that America is already a goddamn theocracy is a fucking moron.

[YOY]

1. Let the Mormons suffer a bit.

They dish it out enough...let them take it.

[ET Awful]

3. As you sow, so shall you reap.

:)

[DBoon]

4. They run the scouting program in many places

scout troops are almost an extension of the local LDS church

[oldhippydude]

12. growing up i mormon country

your right... in fact the local ward used called "the gold and green ball" green being the khaki uniforms of the B.S.A. gold, being some girls organization they sponsored.. this was in the early 60's i remember L.D.S. "seminary" being offered by in the school curriculum.. the mormons have no shame in co opting anything, and always have blurred lines between church and state..

i am surprised however that a Presbyterian church had those views.. i guess now I'm becoming convinced that churches at best are simply different brands of the faith industry, and at worst pawns for a theocratic minority

[HereSince1628]

20. LDS have adopted Boy Scouts for their youth programming

Every ward I know had it's own troop...even some little branches had their own troops.

In the old days there was a faith in god medal awarded...on the left (note the Salt Lake temple in the back) and the on my honor award (note the angel and horn) that requires the ward president (bishop) to interview and pass the kid...

[donquijoterocket]

36. their version

Of the Jesuit philosophy illustrated in the quote Give me the child till the age of seven
and I will show you the man." Matter of fact that's pretty much the strategy of the BSA overall. Founded by a British military man it is a paramilitary organization which I've heard leaders brag about the similarity between parts of the Boy Scout handbook and U.S. Military training manuals.They're wrong in several areas and this is one.I would not, however, expect to see the national leadership of the BSA stand up for the Mormon parents against the Baptists.

[HereSince1628]

44. Once upon a time a lot of the professional scouts were mormon

I've no idea what that looks like 40 years later, but mormons because of their very high participation rates in the 70's were influential from the inside of BSA.

[JDPriestly]

70. Lots of churches sponsor scout troops. I was in a troop sponsored

by an Episcopal church. I was not raised Episcopal. That church just sponsored the local troop and gave it a place to meet. Churches sponsor all sorts of organizations -- like AA and others that are not really a part of the church.

[HereSince1628]

80. Yes, I didn't mean to say that they are unique

Sorry.

[hedgehog]

119. Many religious groups sponsor troops and issue awards to scouts:

http://scoutleaderawards.com/advance/boyscout/religious.asp

What I didn't realize is that technically, the religious group issues the award, not the Boy Scouts.

[CreekDog]

11. you don't support the first amendment

i'll remember this about you. :D

[plantwomyn]

25. What does this have to do with the first amendment?

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

The Congress hasn't legislated against them. Seriously, nobody is stopping these parents or their kids from practicing their religion. There is no inalienable right to be a scout leader! If there were BSA would not be able to deny gay scouts from becoming leaders. Either BSA has the right to have a religious based group, which can discriminate because of that religions dogma, or they do not. The SCOTUS says that they do. That BSA chooses to discriminate against other religions is not a violation of the constitution according to SCOTUS.

The fact that BSA discriminates at all SUCKS, that they choose to discriminate against the MORMONS is karma.

[CreekDog]

26. fine

:eyes:

[BolivarianHero]

81. Yes but...

What about the federal charter the BSA was granted?

The goverment money they receive?

Their preferential access to public facilities (and the penalties to school boards and municipalities that deny the privileged access because of the organisation's discriminatory
policies)?

If they want to discriminate like that, then they should have no relationship of that sort with governments and with the broader public sector.

If you don't get why, you're on the wronge message board.

[YOY]

28. Naw...I just like it when haters get hated on.

:P

[CreekDog]

33. i didn't know being Mormon meant you were a hater

Steve Young's wife lines up against Mormon church on Prop. 8

"We believe ALL families matter and we do not believe in discrimination, therefore, our family will vote against Prop. 8," she said.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/nov05election/detail?entry_id=32216

[YOY]

39. When 80% of the religion votes the one way the church tells them that religion has a problem.

When I've been overlooked for promotion because of blatant and obvious religious nepotism from a particular religion I have a problem.

When it's obvious that people don't want anything to do with my family and become exclusive when we say we have no interest in going to anyone's church I have a problem.

When my family gets woken up at 8 am by a bunch of 18 year old virgins who are gonna tell me 'bout their fantastic version of sky daddy I've got a problem.



Yeah...gonna get a little pissy. Sorry, 'bout that. Never had another religion do that to me...



Sorry, I judge adults on their ability to live without a magical sky daddy.

When a particular version of sky daddy gets even more ridiculous and inseparable from professional and public life than usual the judgery jumps up...

When any religion starts to affect my personal life the gloves are off.


If anything that's more pro 1st Amendment than anything.



Folks like Steve Young's wife and Rocky Anderson aside...I dislike their religion even more than I dislike most religions.

[CreekDog]

59. completely wrong

Mormon Missionaries are 19 year old virgins.

:rofl:

[YOY]

64. Got me.

n/t

[No Elephants]

90. We assume.

[asdjrocky]

47. Yes, but the church itself, funded Prop 8.

If Muslims as a group were trying to do in America what the Mormon church is doing, people would be up in arms.

Mormons are getting away with murder, the murder of separation of church and state.

[CreekDog]

58. Perhaps we should persecute Catholics on the basis of what some priests did

fair, or not?

Steven Colbert for example, is a Roman Catholic. What kind of mistreatment do you recommend for him, since as a Catholic he is responsible for everything those above him do?

[asdjrocky]

62. I just hate it when people use examples like that for bad organizations.

You can always find someone with a few good attributes that belong to a bad organization. I'm sure there are a few members of the KKK or the Republican party that would help an old lady cross the street too.

[CreekDog]

63. well then good luck arguing for fair treatment for Muslims

:rofl:

[asdjrocky]

67. That's where you just went off track.

My very best friend in the world is a Muslim from Palestine. In fact, I'm very close with him and his whole family. They are wonderful, hard working and loyal people who would never think to try to push their beliefs on me. I think much of the Muslim religion is very wonderful, as I do Christianity and Judaism. So many wonderful words and messages.

Then what happens is fundamentalists get a hold of the core of the religion and make it a bludgeon to hit people with. For example, I've often said that the first church to adopt Matthew 25 as it's one and only tenant, gets me as a member.

You've lost your argument, and the laughing little icon is just silly and rude.

[CreekDog]

69. I'm sorry I wasted the irony on you

especially since I thought you would be swift enough to catch it. :D

[No Elephants]

89. What does Steve Young's wife have to do with the Stokes?

[herbm]

18. So all suffering is not bad. Mormon suffering is just fine with you.

[YOY]

24. Like ambrosia to my ears actually!

So they sow. So they reap.

They were the main power behind that Proposition mother fucking 8 on my gay friends.

And I have been on the end of their own discrimination before...simply by the grace of being a Non-Mormon.

Fuck 'em.

[herbm]

50. Just like the big pig said, "we're all free, just that some of us are free-er than others." The Bill

of Rights is for everyone - Mormons and Gitmo detainees, atheists and boy scouts, too.

[YOY]

51. Then perhaps they best read it a little closer.

You see...they keep getting their goddamn religion in my government...

[herbm]

53. We all carry personal values in our life to our positions. Thank G*d for the Bill of Rights - Congre

ss shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, impeding the free exercise of religion, infringing on the freedom of speech, infringing on the freedom of the press, interfering with the right to peaceably assemble or prohibiting the petitioning for a governmental redress of grievances.

The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment has been interpreted by the Supreme Court as erecting a separation of church and state. Even Scalia hasn't given any indication he disagrees.

Works pretty good, so far.

Of course Tea Baggers carry thier own values to office, too. Once again - thank G*d for the Bill of Rights, specificaly freedom of the press, the right to vote, due process and equal access if they screw up because uninformed voters actualy elect this slate.

We will never become a theocracy.

[YOY]

55. Religion has dick to do with values/morality. The greatest lie of religion is that we need it..

And freedom to religion means freedom from religion.

It has not worked marvelously. Not at all.

End of fucking discussion.

[herbm]

57. We don't need religion - I can agree with that about 90% but we do need G*d. Maybe you don't and tha

t is fine with me. I believe the best gift after Christ that we've been give is free will. My faith gives me peace and hope for the future in spite of the capital C Christians best efforts to make little god robots out of everyone. I'd like the US to christian, not Christian and the quickest way to make me go counter the system would be establishment of the Christian Republic of America. Christian Mullahs would be doing all sorts of unchristian things.

[YOY]

65. I'm afraid we don't need Gad, Gid, Gyd, God, Gud, or Ged either.

You see. Your free will is yours and nobody gave it to you.

Jesus was just a nice guy who pointed out that being nice to others is a good thing.

[herbm]

68. That's your take and so be it. But don't presume to speak for everybody else.

[YOY]

75. Just anyone who's not a sucker.

n.t.

[herbm]

82. Snark and personal attack, no substance. You seem to have a whole lot more interest in what I should

and should not belive in than I have in your own. Are you the thought police, too? Ease up a little its only adult conversation.

[No Elephants]

93. You presumed to speak for everyone else when you posted we do not need religion, but do need God.

[herbm]

109. That's no presumption. Beside, I speak for me. You don't to anything about anything I say.

Can't we all get along, can't we all learn to live together?

[herbm]

110. The one thing I do not get about atheists in general is that in their asserting their correctness

they can't help but trash everybody else. Christianity doesn't need to disprove atheism but each individual's atheism seems to need to disprove or belittle everyone else's knowledge of G*d in what ever manifestation a believing person holds the Deity. I don't think that being atheist is synonymous with being amoral/unethical any more than I believe all Christians are moral and ethical. In fact that judgment either way in either case is not for me to dwell on. I don't 'prove' G*d by demonstrating the emptiness of anything else. G*d doesn't exist because atheism is wrong. Atheism is wrong for ME because I know G*d exists. I don't embrace G*d as an alternative to the false promise of atheism. And that is exactly how atheism needs to promote itself. Proving a negative. Atheism exists because G*d allegedly doesn't. I feel no need to mark you as "atheist". But you seem to need to mark those who are christian. I think you need to be as accepting of me as I am of you. At least if there is a need in you to strike out against certain Christians who've treated you badly, shouldn't those be the ones you attack not every one of us. I bet you and I could sit down drink a beer and talk about stuff and I promise not a word regarding Atheism or Christianity will pop up from me. How about you?

[No Elephants]

92. No, I never insist my personal religious values become the law of my state or nation.

So, please do not lump me or folks like me in with Mormons opposing Prop 8.

[No Elephants]

91. What did government have to do wth iPresbyterians rejecting Mormons?

[Posteritatis]

52. Injustice is okay when it happens to people we don't like? Awesome! (nt)

[YOY]

54. Sure is!

Apparently you've not experienced enough of them!

May I recommend the full on Utah-as-an-outsider experience?

Yet to find one person who has done it that hasn't noticed it...

[No Elephants]

95. You mean when bigots get a relatively insignificant taste of bigotry?

Living your entire life as a second class citizen because of the way you were born and cannot change, versus not being able to have your kids join the one Boy Scout pack that meets in this one particular Presbyterian church because of the religion you yourself choose?

Not saying either is fair, but the two sure aren't any where near equivalent, either.

[Matariki]

97. No. Very wrong attitude.

[Bill McBlueState]

117. there's no reason

that some random Mormon couple, who may or may not agree with their church's position on marriage equality, should be the target of religious discrimination by Christian fundamentalists.

[mudplanet]

2. I've got no particular sympathy for Mormons who are on the receiving end of

discrimination, but the BSA needs some serious attention.

[Recursion]

5. I've got issues with BSA but this definitely isn't something the national org would approve of

Per wiki...

You'll notice there's an LDS religious emblem called "On My Honor".

EDIT: fix link (the parentheses were killing it)

[Xithras]

83. Oh no, the national org will be slapping these guys down quickly and violently.

The Mormons have had the BSA by the short hairs for more than a decade. Mormon churches are the single largest source of new scouting recruits (and therefore, funding) for the BSA, and have been since some time in the 1990's. At one point, during the atheist suits, there were actually some public moves by the BSA to discuss a relaxation of their prohibitions. The Mormons freaked out and immediately threatened the BSA, stating very bluntly and publicly that they would withdraw all of their units from the Boy Scouts and establish a competing "Christian" scouting organization. The numbers vary, but it would have eliminated about a quarter of the scouts nationally overnight, and might have led to a 40% loss of scouts within a year of the pullout. That would have killed scouting in the U.S.

So the national org caved to the Mormons. In exchange, the Mormons funded the BSA's legal fight to maintain the prohibitions.

[realisticphish]

6. The hilarious part is that BSA is pretty much run by the Mormons

seriously, they are a MAJOR, MAJOR backer, and one of the primary reasons the anti-homosexual and anti-atheist policies exist.

[closeupready]

7. Shrug.

K&R

[Happyhippychick]

8. Sweet justice served to the creators of Prop 8. Not one tear will fall from me.

[_ed_]

9. Boo hoo

You reap what you sow.

[CanonRay]

10. Banning Atheists IS religious discrimination

and should not be allowed, if they want to continue to receive my tax dollars.

[HereSince1628]

14. Boy Scouts get $upport from government?

I wasn't aware of that.

[realisticphish]

19. I'm pretty sure they don't, actually

but i'm not 100% sure. At least not money that's different from any other "faith based initiative" type of charity thing

[oldhippydude]

40. actually

a large part of their funding comes from united way... plus as i remember paying a dime a week dues (early 60's)

[herbm]

21. I agree strongly with you, but go further - all discrimination over race, religion, ethnic, gender,

religion, special needs is just plain wrong.

[The Straight Story]

41. So girl scouts should allow boys? (nt)

[herbm]

46. Too late, they do. I had to join the Girls Scouts to take my Scout daughters' troop on

field trips. Never joined the BSA, but I was a Girl Scout as a 30 year man when we lived in Nebraska. And I know there are female members of the Boy Scouts. I think since the late sixties.

[Xithras]

84. Yes, there are female Scouters.

Women can, and do, serve in any position within the Scouting hierarchy. I've known two female Scoutmasters.

The only thing a woman can't do is join the Boy Scouts or Cub Scouts as a child. That mostly has to do with sleep-space issues on campouts.

[herbm]

86. Young women can join Explorer Scouts.

[No Elephants]

98. Are you okay with discrimination based on sexual orientation?

[madmom]

13. I had a cub scout come to my door last week to sell their over priced popcorn, when I refused the

mother acted like I personally insulted her and her son ( I said nothing about why I refused). When she pressed it I told her that I didn't agree with their discrimination of others. She said "we allow blacks and other minorities". I asked about atheists, she just turned and walked away.:nopity:

[herbm]

22. As a christian I think you acted out of conscience. Good for you.

[Gore1FL]

101. I am a Wood Badge Trained Adult Leader Eagle Scout and I won't buy the popcorn.

It's a rip off.

As far as the National Policy of banning Homosexual or Atheist youth, rest assured it is not practiced at the troop level by numerous troops in the organization.

Those policies come from the LDS domination of the BSA (having the LDS use the BSA program as their youth program probably sounded a lot better before they started overly influencing policy.

The Boy Scouts is an excellent Youth program, you just have to find the right troop.

[Poll_Blind]

15. I know I'm going to take heat for this but I AGREE: Scouts have a long tradition of...

...being molested by good old-fashioned Christians.

And it should stay that way.

One of my three boys is in the Boy Scouts right now and if he were molested by a Mormon it would just taint the authenticity of the cultural experience we've got him in there for.

PB

[herbm]

16. That's pretty ironic. The LDS are stong supporters of BSA.

[demwing]

17. Thanks for calling me a fucking moron

Becaue I don't believe we live in a theocracy.

However, I do think people who would insult others for not believing such a thing, are themselves stupid fucking dipsticks.

[herbm]

23. Who in the world called you that?

[demwing]

27. The last line in the OP

"Anyone who doesn't believe that America is already a goddamn theocracy is a fucking moron."

Well, that group includes me, because I don't believe that America is already a goddamn (or any variety of a) theocracy, and it pisses me off when people make such obviously untrue, insulting, and emotionally overcharged statements

[herbm]

48. Well I happen to agree with your post. Civility is running a little thin here lately.

The only way to possibly turn me atheist would be to set me in a theocracy -Christian, Mormon, Aqua-Buddah or whatever. I am interested in the bong manifestation of Aqua-Buddah, though.

[Freddie Stubbs]

29. How much 'government money' does the Boy Scouts of America receive?

[herbm]

49. Directly none accourding to what I can tell, but they do use public blds -schools and civic bldgs

they also recieve some support from govt agencies inc police and sheriff depts and military bases. Some of that may inc donations but generaly run to providing leaders and meeting space and camp grounds.

[MsPithy]

30. Here we go!

In the end, there is only one outcome when religions start saying one kind of religion is better or truer than another. People will die! The christians who delude themselves into believing the First Amendment actually means we have a national religion, coincidentally THEIR religion, are uniformly too stupid to realize how dangerous that belief is.

Throughout history you can count on one hand the times different religions in a society were not trying to annihilate each other. The US used to be one of those societies.

[herbm]

61. As a christian I think you got it about right. More Romans got fed to lions by Christians than the .

other way around.

[No Elephants]

99. Sorry, I just don't see this one Presbyterian church starting to kill Mormons.

This was not the Presbyterian religion saying Mormons are not fit to join Scout packs that meet in our buildings; it was only the one church--and I bet that one church backs down in a minute and a half.

Most religions believe they are better than other religions. And yes, there have been religious wars, but there have been wars over land, water, and all kinds of things. If people didn't fight over religion, my guess is they would find something else, like blue eyes over brown eyes.

[kestrel91316]

31. Back in the 1940s when my dad was a very active Boy Scout in rural Nevada,

the troop he belonged to was run out of the local Mormon church. My dad's family were "jack" Mormons - nonpracticing. When it cam time for him to be promoted to I think Star Scout (the one just below Eagle Scout), his troop leader, the local Mormon bishop, told him that he sure would like to promote him since he had done a great job meeting all the requirements, but that he couldn't because my dad was not going to church.

Daddy walked out and never went back. He wasn't bitter, just sad that people could be so narrow-minded.

[Taverner]

32. At some point in the 80's, the religious wackos took over the BSA

I don't remember it ever being like this when I was in

[FSogol]

34. That Church is violating the BSA's own rules. Scouts cannot discriminate against any religion

as long as there is a belief in a creator. (I acknowledge that they discriminate in other ways.)

[wizstars]

35. This is action by this Presbyterian Church, NOT the BSA.

as a long-time Scout leader myself, I can say that this is emphatically NOT the policy of the BSA. It is the sponsoring organization (here a Presbyterian church) that selects/approves the pack leaders.

[YDogg]

66. This.

The chartered (sponsoring) organization (school, church, VFW club, etc.) is not obligated to approve individual leaders to administer the Scouting program in their troop. These decisions on individuals are not BSA decisions.

On a not-exactly-related-but-similar point, those chartered organizations own the property the individual units accumulate. When/if a Scout unit folds, the camping equipment, vehicles, buildings, and other swag the Scout unit owned are taken over by the chartered organization. I've always found that to be curious.

[Dappleganger]

79. Yes, but the BSA has no business being an offshoot of any church

at all. It's highly exclusionary and separatist.

[oldhippie]

118. Exactly. I am also a Woodbadge trained Scouter ......

.... and there is no BSA policy that says Scout Leaders have to be "real Chrisitians." Other relegions are accepted. One only has to have a belief in a Supreme Being. Atheists obviously don't qualify (which is why I left Scouting.)

[tomm2thumbs]

37. tables, turned

the organized religions of this world are going to prove their worth on what they accomplish, not by whom they exclude - that's why so many are hollow shells without souls

better to sit on an empty island somewhere and pray

[d_r]

38. We are letting my son be a cub scout

We struggled with it. Honestly.

I talked to some good progressive friends with a child a year older who was in tiger cubs last year.

It came down to this. He really wanted to do it. We don't have this sort of thing at all in our local group, which is in a fairly progressive area of town, for the south. And you change more opinions or things from the inside than out.

What I struggled with was the homosexuality thing. I just do not agree with discrimination.

And I disagree with the organization on the national level. Our local group is pretty much slackers just wanting the kids to have fun, and I don't have any issues here. It boiled down to it was something he really, really wanted to do. And he needed, as an individual kid, some opportunities for success in peer interactions.

It was a tough decision really. I hate that it has to be tough like that frankly.

I find this local groups action deplorable.

FWIW, I submitted the application to be a volunteer leader, I don't remember anything on it about religious affiliation, if it had I wouldn't have had anything to put there and it would have stood out to me.

The problem here is that this church is running it as a church group.

[greiner3]

42. Atheists cannot join the fucking Scouts either.

[pdx_prog]

43. LDS uses the Scouts as their youth program

Obviously, the church is the chartered organization for the scout troop. Applications have to be signed by a chartered organization representative before going to the scout council. If this application had made it to the council it would have been approved as long as the background check of these individuals came back clean. The BSA does not give religious awards. There are religious awards available from the churches or organizations that range from Chrsitian to Muslim to Jewish and everything in between. Being a Chrsitian is not a requirement for being in the Boy Scouts. Believing in a higher power is a requirement.....I chair Eagle boards in our district every Tuesday evening and they have to show a belief in a higher power. They can say, "I topped the hill and looked out at the view and said to myself there has to be someone that created this" and they will pass the requirement. "Revereance" is part of the Scout law but this does not mean religious.

All government money was taken away from the scouts years ago. They rely strictly on families within the program and fund raising events to support the program. The scouting program is still the safest and most rewarding program for a kid that is out there. I have seen some amazing kids come through the program.

[caseymoz]

45. I'm an atheist and I think this is unfair.

But finally, it's not my fight unless it's about government funds.

[Hyper_Eye]

56. It broke my heart to tell my son he couldn't join BSA.

My 6 year old son came home incredibly excited with a BSA pamphlet he received at school. He was showing me the pictures and getting more excited. My wife told him he needed to talk to me about it but I had no intention of leading him on. I told him that he wouldn't understand the reasons, and it is not his fault, but he can't join the group. The look on his face told me he was very disappointed but wanted to hide it and he accepted my answer without complaint. Inside I was torn to pieces.

Living in the middle of the bible belt (Alabama) it can be difficult sometimes figuring out how to explain religion to my children when they have no concept of God or religious belief. I don't think that is unique to my situation. I don't believe there is a 6 year old in this world that really gets it. The explanation is simply easier for religious people because they can point to a book and tell their kids all the answers are inside and it will all be explained every Sunday. With my kids I have to try to explain, not only how things came to be and work (even when the answer is "I don't know"), but why everyone they know believes in something called God and talks about someone named Jesus. I also have to explain to them that they are welcome to listen to what people have to say about these things but that they need to understand that the people they are talking to are not skeptical of what they are saying and have a strong emotional attachment to what my kids perceive to be stories. Of course they don't really grasp any of this yet but I am doing the best I can. My kids have never ask me though where people go when they die or why any of it matters. The consequence of someone dying is something my son may understand within the limitations that come with being a child but he gets it enough that if you ask him how long "someone is dead for" his answer is, "Forever." And I don't want that to be a passive thing for him. I want him to feel the truth in that and understand how valuable each person is as each is a unique life that will cease to exist forever at death. That is an example of morals free of religion.

While telling my kids these things I know there is a possibility that one day they will be picked on for it. That also hurts. He has already had other kids question his lack of belief in God but there has not yet been any negative reaction. The BSA pamphlet was really my first glimpse into the consequences of raising my kids without religious belief. I know this is just the first time they will be left out. It will happen again and it will be just as hard for me to accept and increasingly hard for them. Part of me felt like I should be mad that they handed out pamphlets for an organization that is only open to those with faith. This is part of why my kids are in public schools. The idea is inclusion with no regard to race, religion, or creed. But I am not going to push something like that. If I bore 100% of any consequence I would but I know most of the consequence will be placed directly on my son. I'm not saying there isn't any limit to what I will put up with but this is not enough to make a fuss.

Anyway, I would love for my son to be able to join any group he wants but BSA is a discriminatory group and no progressive should support it.

[d_r]

73. sometimes

I used to live in Michigan and I have a good friend and mentor, who is a pretty well known author in education. At the time we lived a few blocks from a terribly struggling elementary school in downtown Lansing Mi. Michigan had schools of choice - which means you can choose to go to a different school system. One of the central values we have had for our children is that they grow up experiencing a diverse world, and are around people from all backgrounds. We knew we would never send our kids "out in the county" to a 99% white school, but we found ourselves struggling with wanting to send our kids to school in East Lansing. It was still very diverse racially, and somewhat economically, but not the same sort of poverty as the school that was blocks away, next door to a GM plant was. But there were so many opportunities in the East Lansing schools. My mentor said "you can't sacrifice your kids to prove how progressive you are." It was an important point. When we moved here to Chattanooga TN we wanted our children to go to public schools, so we carefully picked the neighborhood that would be most progressive, if that makes sense. Every town has one.

I understand what you are saying. I have good friends in Auburn whose son is one year older than mine and was in cub scouts last year. They are liberal good folks. I told them I didn't think I was going to let my son do it the next year, and they admitted they really struggled with it, but that it was such a big thing for him that ultimately they decided to. It really surprised me, because they have always been huge advocates for gay equality; but they said "you know, you have more of a chance to change something from the inside." Now, Auburn city isn't like the rest of Alabama, I know that. And our neighborhood in N. Chattanooga isn't like the rest of the region. If we were living in an area where I knew that the majority of the cub scout parents would be regressive, I don't know if I could have done it. But we are letting our son be a Tiger Cub. And honestly I think it is a good thing for him. He really did need the peer experiences. It has been such a bid deal for him. But like I said above, the parents in this group are just slackers letting the kids have a good time.

I feel for you man. You must have some pretty negative folks around you for you to know that you had to say no to your son that quickly. I know that has to be tough.

[IdaBriggs]

74. Its interesting how you are raising your children, and why.

I am taking a different tack (and it works for me). I am *educating* my children about faith and religion.

We attend three different churches regularly (LDS, Southern Baptist & Modern Christian), visit several others frequently (Christian Scientists, Jehovah Witnesses and Roman Catholic), attend a Muslim school (its preschool, and its AWESOME), and regularly attend Jewish and Wiccan services. We used to go to Hindu temple, but there was an incident with my son grabbing a beautiful braid on a young woman, and I haven't had the nerve to go back yet - LOL!

I want my children to clearly understand and respect the different faiths of the people around them; I don't want them picking one because of the snacks (Southern Baptist=best food) or blessed bananas (Hindu!). Odds are good they will join the Scouts (daddy is an Eagle/Grandpa has been volunteering for 30 years); dear friends are gay, and my kids will be raised with *respect* for same sex couples, too, hopefully seeing equal rights for all before they are in college. I'm clear on my beliefs, and comfortable I will be able to explain why I'm insisting my kids get educated -- and I don't mean CONVERTED.

Its a challenge, and its a lot of work. Sometimes, just being an example of "respecting" is a challenge in itself! But honestly, its important to me - I want them to come to a decision about faith from a place of comfort and understanding. The questions as they get older will be more challenging, but right now, I'm good.

[Zhade]

106. I think you're a wonderful parent. We need more like you.

I also follow the same policy of never lying to my son. He knows that I'm an atheist and thus have no religion, that I don't buy into any mythology and highly value critical thinking. It breaks my heart that he still believes in that stuff, but my hope is that he will grow out of it. Kudos on doing such a fantastic job raising your children!

[NuttyFluffers]

108. Campfire Kids! There's one in your state, too!

Camp Fire

http://www.campfireusa.org/index.aspx

Non-discriminatory group. Check their Mission and Core Values, #6:

6. We are inclusive, welcoming children, youth and adults regardless of race, religion, socioeconomic status, disability, sexual orientation or other aspect of diversity.

Wish i knew about them when i was younger.

[proteus_lives]

60. That's wrong.

[davidinalameda]

71. sucks to be them

but the Supreme Court has ruled that the BSA can make their own rules

[krabigirl]

72. I wont allow my son to join scouts. No way in hell.

[Dappleganger]

77. We didn't allow ours, either...

but it was because I don't trust their leaders.

[Dappleganger]

76. Watch Glen BecKKK turn this around and blame it on Muslims somehow.

If he blames the Presbyterians who are at fault he'll lose a TON of his viewership!

[Dappleganger]

78. If I got the right church, it's in Matthews NC

and a part of the PCA, not the more liberal PC-USA denomination.

BTW, our family used to go to a PCA church and finally left because of a number of issues. They can be pretty damn uptight and are very exclusive (Mormons, Catholics aren't christian, don't mix with other churches, etc.).

[Xmit]

85. Please do not knee jerk the BSA

While I abhor everything the BSA stands for in the instance of sexual orientation and religion, don't paint with such a broad brush until you've been there. I spent a very good number of years as a very active participant in the BSA. I am an Eagle Scout. I NEVER was pushed into any religious activity, ever in my 10 years of ACTIVE scout experience, it wasn't even mentioned.

What I did have pushed on me though were morals, outdoor skills, fellowship, science, marksmanship, survival and community service. These things helped me sail through my coming of age, my military career and made me a much better person, on the whole.

The experiences I had in scouting I would not trade for the world, and absent the dogma, I would wish on every young man in the world.

What one needs to see and understand is that the headlines, don't really mean shit on the frontlines. I never was exposed to the amount of BS I see daily on the news when I was a member. The guys in the units, they generally don't give a shit about this stuff. They are all about bringing young men together to learn life's lessons and celebrate fellowship. This stuff comes from the top generally.

And please do not make comments about Baden Powell and his intent with the Scouting movement unless you are intimately aware of it. To say the Scouting movement is an arm of the military may be feasible but, in modern times it is just ignorant bullshit.

[Dappleganger]

87. Jesus

calm the fuck down. You are putting words into my mouth and I don't appreciate it one bit.

If anything I am railing against that church (and do have a standing since we used to belong to that denomination). And I was giving my OPINION and can say whatever the hell I want about the BSA. If you don't like it then that's too bad. The BSA is documented to discriminate against gays and atheists and shield child molesters. Sorry but that's their history. There's good of course but the negative outweighs the good, in my opinion and many on this board.

I didn't say anything about the scouts being an arm of the military either--you've got your wires crossed pretty badly there, buddy.

[Xmit]

115. Who's not calm?

Because I make a detailed post about MY experience, somehow I am combative?

Get a grip man, merely stating your case is not an attack on you. That is unless, you think it is? Which lends credence to how wrong your statements are. Ambiguous enough for you?

[PassingFair]

88. Would you join a golf club that wouldn't admit blacks or jews?

Don't really see the difference here.

I admit, it's pretty easy for me to shun
the BoyScouts because I only have daughters.

I let my girls attend AWANA at the local Baptist
Church when they were little, because that's what
some of their friends were doing.

Here's a picture from THIS WEEK at that church:



Just for a comparison, I do NOT have a sign
on MY front lawn that says "THERE IS NO GOD".

I say this church is a BAD neighbor.

[No Elephants]

100. They purport to know what God believes? Hubris.

[Gore1FL]

102. Would you live in a Country that doesn't have equal rights for GLBT?

BSA is different at the troop level than the national policies would indicate. I too am an Eagle Scout (since 1980). I am also an adult leader. NEVER in the time of my involvement with the Boy Scouts, youth or adult, was my sexuality or religious values questioned.

I am not defending the National Policies. I am explaining that not only are they not enforced, if you look at what is taught in Scouting program, it's a pretty damn liberal curriculum.

[PassingFair]

103. Tell that to Darrell Lambert.

http://archives.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0211/02/smn.09.html

Lots of people, both youth AND adults, have had their
sexuality and/or religious values questioned.

[Gore1FL]

104. Find another troop when that happens

Many adhere to the Scout Law better than they do National Policies.

[PassingFair]

105. Or stick with Campfire Kids....

they don't have religious litmus tests for children.

[Gore1FL]

107. Well, in practice neither do many units affliated with BSA.

Which has been my point.

[PassingFair]

113. Oh well, then... atheist parents and parents of gay youth should...

immediately start shopping around for a
group that will accept their kids, against
rules that the national organization holds
in "principal", but that MAYBE, some unit
will withhold in "practice".

:eyes:

[CBGLuthier]

116. Do we all have to join the KLAN to understand they are bigots?

The entire organization is bigoted. I have no use for them. Period. I guess you passed the christian smell test.

[Politicub]

94. Bigotry in stereo

Do the Boy Scouts think anyone is pure enough to join the club?

[No Elephants]

96. As I read the OP, it was one particular Presbyterian church, not the Boy Scout organization per se.

Plenty of Mormons are Boy Scouts.

[lunatica]

111. Jesus! The all American Clean Cut Boy Scouts is politicized too?!

First they're anti-gay and now they're anti some religion? No wonder kids grow up to be racists and bigoted.

[underpants]

112. ....aaand cue Glen Beck

[JerseygirlCT]

114. It's interesting

b/c the Mormons have largely overtaken leadership in the BSA, from what I read. A little bit of bigotry blowing back at these folks?

[MX96391]

120. The Boy Scouts should be ordered to end discrimination

or lose access to any government money