Slain Contractors Were in Iraq Working Security Detail (Elite Commandos)

[kskiska]

The four men brutally slain Wednesday in Fallujah were among the most elite commandos working in Iraq to guard employees of U.S. corporations and were hired by the U.S. government to protect bureaucrats, soldiers and intelligence officers.

The men, all employees of Blackwater Security Consulting, were in the dangerous Sunni Triangle area operating under more hazardous conditions -- unarmored cars with no apparent backup -- than the U.S. military or the CIA permit.

U.S. government officials said yesterday that they suspect that the men were not victims of a random ambush but were set up as targets, which one defense official said suggested "a higher degree of organization and sophistication" among insurgents. "This is certainly cause for concern."

A Blackwater spokesman said the men were guarding a convoy on its way to deliver food to troops under a subcontract to a company named Regency Hotel and Hospitality. One of those killed was identified by his family yesterday as Jerry Zovko, 32, an Army veteran from Willoughby, Ohio. The three other Blackwater employees were former SEALs, the Navy's elite counterterrorism force.

more…
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A43364-2004Apr1.html

[mhr]

1. For Profit Warriors - No Sympathy Here - Don't Care What Nationality!

eom

[Career Prole]

5. I'm with you there.

I read that some of these guys rake in a grand a day. They weighed the risks and decided it was worth it to them. I hope they didn't assess the risks by watching Faux news. Foolish move if they did.

[saigon68]

67. Mercenary Army of more that !5,000

Yesterday the gloves came off and the fight began in earnest.

Despite what President Cheney and his clueless Sock-puppet say the Iraqis have no interest in democracy as we know it and certainly no interest in our being there. This has become very clear in the last 24 Hours.

Like wise all of those swaggering desert camo flak vest wearers in blue jeans with their M-16 A4 knockoffs, have been exposed as a Mercenary army. They have a face and a name now. I for one never knew who they were. We were told they were State Dept Employees. Now we know they are mercenaries, hired by a number of black ops companies. They are now front and center and will be viewed with suspicion.

That they were there to deliver food in 2 small cars wearing flak jackets carrying their machine guns is ludicrous. They are contact Thugs who shoot first and ask questions later.

These are extraordinary times.

[saigon68]

181. Front and Center--- Your men (mercenaries) in IRAQ

[LiberalFighter]

107. But they didn't consider their families in the risk

[keithyboy]

37. So why do FOX, CNN, and MSNBC keep calling them innocent civilians?

Or just plain civilians is bad enough. They should be refered to as non-military or para-military commandos.

Only the guresome mis-dieeds of others is considered 'barbaric' and 'uncivilized.' What we do is 'sanctified' almost 'holy,'

[saigon68]

55. They are Mercenaries

They care only about personal gain. If they cared about the country they would still wear the uniform and be subject to the ROE and the UCMJ. The regular military loathes these types.

FAUX on the other hand is as close to a criminal enterprise as one can imagine.

[ikojo]

128. If they were any nationality other than AMERICAN

they would be called hired guns or commandos or whatever. Because they are AMERICANS they are seen as totally innocent in whatever they do.

The dangerous thing about companies such as Blackwater "Security" is that it is a private company and not subject to military law. The only thing they are accountable for is to make a profit. What happens if one of their employees commits a war crime such as torturing people? It sure would be convenient for * to have outfits like this around, that way THEY can do the torture and the US military doesn't get charged with the war crime.

[saigon68]

129. Yes indeed This is the issue

Deniability.. We didn't know what they were doing

The Yamashita War Crimes Trial Revisited

http://www.waikato.ac.nz/wfass/subjects/history/waimilhist/1998/yamashita.html


What is not debatable is the elastic expansion of command responsibility for malfeasance and misfeasance the Commission determined. In his appeal dissent Murphy J. of the United States Supreme Court frighteningly argued that:

No one in a position of command in an army, from sergeant to general, can escape those implications. Indeed, the fate of some future President of the United States and his chief of staff and military advisers may well have been sealed by this decision.1

[TankLV]

71. Guess they can kiss their semi-annual/monthly "performance" bonus goodbye!

Oh, wait, they'll probably all get raises - it's the bushco way!

Glad it wasn't someones soldier husband/wife, etc.

It's not just a job - it's a killer job!

Ha!

NO SYMPATHY here, either.

These same bastards will be the ones comming to a demonstration against chimpy here on amerikkka's streets soon.

These "men" are equivalent to the "enforcers" and "hit men" enforcing Mafia Dons and drug dealers. Do NOT EVER compare them to "our troops". They are on opposite side of the spectrum.

They are there to "protect" the looters of the Iraqi people for bunkerboy's pals. Don't ever forget that!

[Name removed]

90. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

96. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

133. IMHO, nobody has that kind of violent death "coming". These guys...

...don't have any other skills than those provided by the military, and being a "contractor" or mercenary pays very well. They also understand the risk, but they have to provide for their families and they're doing that the best they know how.

If you want to blame anyone or any group for creating the situation in which they found themselves, blame Junior and the NeoCons.

[NNN0LHI]

134. "..and being a "contractor" or mercenary pays very well."

Well, that makes everything alright then. :crazy:

Don

[Media_Lies_Daily]

136. What's the point of your rather senseless remark? Did I say anywhere...

...that the war manufactured by the NeoCons was acceptable in any sense of the word? Did I state that what they were doing was good in any sense of the word?

All I was doing was explaining the rationale of the people willing to go to Iraq as mercenaries PARTICULARLY SINCE THERE IS NO REAL WORK TO BE FOUND IN THE STATES THANKS ALSO TO THE POLICIES OF THE NEOCONS.

Do you believe that anyone should die the way that those people died? If you say "yes", then I would have to assume that you believe that everyone that has died in Iraq to date, regardless of their nationality, deserved to die that way. Do you think I should make those kinds of assumptions about your comments, and do you think I would be justified in doing so?

If you can point out anywhere in my post anything resembling your comment of "that makes everything alright then", please post it right here or shut the hell up.

[NNN0LHI]

143. You seem to be reaching for excuses for why these guys became mercs

There is no excuse for the decision these guys made. There can be good money in bank robbing too. The problem is that the drawback of dying in a hail of bullets during the bank robbery if something goes wrong is very high. That is why bank robbing is not the right profession for most people. Same thing here. Good money, but there can be major drawbacks. These guys discovered the hard way that the drawbacks outweighed the good money. I hope others learn something from what happened to these guys, and other do not suffer the same fate.

Don

[Media_Lies_Daily]

144. I don't have to justify why those people become mercenaries...

...any more than anyone else does. Did you read anywhere in my two posts any excuses for why they became mercenaries other than stating why most people do become mercenaries? Do you somehow read that as making excuses for them?

What I am clearly saying, if certain people like yourself will stop trying to read something else into it, is that nobody deserves to die that way. If you believed they deserved to die that way, then you must also believe that the tens of thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians also deserved to die the way they did under tons of American bombs. Is that a fair statement, or not? You can't have it both ways.

One more point...instead of you blaming me for having the audacity to to state on DU that nobody deserves to die the way that those mercenaries did, why don't you try putting the blame squarely on the people that created this mess, namely Junior and his fellow NeoCons?

[RapidCreek]

167. Gee I guess we could say the same about Heroin dealers

Sorry chief, I know how to use a knife and a gun...I know how to kill, but that ain't all I know....and it ain't all they knew either. There are plenty of things I know how to do, which pay very very well but are amoral and wrong. I don't do them because I would have to sell my soul before I did and that wouldn't be the only price. They didn't find themselves in any situation. They put themselves in a situation.

Anyone can create a situation....if no one shows up to the situation...it doesn't happen. If a war is declared and no one shows up to fight it...the war doesn't happen...get it? If a company decides to war profiteer in a dangerous part of the world...and no one shows up to cover their asses while they are busy stealing a country blind...then they can't very easily steal that country blind. Protectors and enablers of thieves are no better than the theives themselves...in fact they are worse. No, if you want to blame anyone or any group for creating a situation you don't entirely blame Junior and the NeoCons. In fact you hardly blame them at all....you blame the stupid, vicious, amoral, greedy, arrogant, self righteous people who enable them by doing their bidding and those who sit by and spout rationalizations for them.

Save the bleeding heart crap for someone who deserves it.

RC

[saigon68]

183. I agree

Its hard to be patient with these people

[skooooo]

130. Hmmm.....this troubles me.

I have sympathy for anyone who's hurt in this war. They weren't going out to kill people as far as we know. Go ahead and slam me for this, I know I'm probably in the minority and not being "politically correct" in my sentiments.

[RapidCreek]

170. On the contrary, you're being very politically correct

Your spouting exactly what Faux, Cnn, Msnbc and Karl Rove want you to spout...what could be more politically correct and righteous than that?

Ex-Seals with in Kevlar carrying fully automatic weapons are not driving around in fajulla to do charity work, are they? If they are...what charitable organization are they doing security work for?

RC

[alcuno]

2. "protect....soldiers?"

Dick Cheney's handiwork; the privatization of the military.

[keithyboy]

3. Hmmm...the Iraqi knew exactly who they were..their intel is better than US

This really should be a cause for concern. Most of the time when US "citizens" are killed in foreign countries when it is said that they were spies, they usually are. Remember the "inspectors" that the Iraqis claimed were spies...they really were spies and Saddam refused to allow them to do their work (these were before Blix). Saddam was right.

[librechik]

4. they sent elite commandos to guard the food?

hmmm....

[Florida_Geek]

7. Does not sound like

they knew how to protect themselve much less food.

[diamond14]

14. definitely a FUBAR in more ways than one....most smart people

would seriously consider cancelling their 'security' contract with 'blackwater' at this time...failure, and also, an international spectacle...totally uncalled for if these top notch security people had checked out the situation, and NOT gone right into a very bad scene...time to get a better security firm....

complete failure to protect anyone else....couldn't even protect themselves....

[0007]

28. Even Kentucky fried chicken can be had if the timing is right.

But guarding food???? By highly trained troops, or whatever they were doesn't make sense?? Part of the story is missing, I believe that we're not suppose to know about.

[NNN0LHI]

126. You are right. Anyone with a lick of sense knows these guys were chosen

And they were chosen for a reason. What that reason was we will probably never know, but it does not take a rocket scientist to figure out they were not killed for handing out candy bars to the Iraqi kids. That is for damn sure.

Don

[saigon68]

127. Sooner or later the Truth will float up

Like a turd in a toilet rises to the surface.

[NeoConsSuck]

26. Yep.

A $1000/day "Meals on Wheels" program. I believe it. CNN said so, so it must be true.

[LiberalFighter]

108. I guess the Navy's Seals are not that elite

Then again, maybe they were the rejects or they had lost their ability due to age and other factors.

[pooltablerepairman]

191. "they sent elite commandos to guard the food?"

No.... To protect the PEOPLE delivering the food.

[sasquatch]

6. Hey does anyone have a ouija board(however you spell it)?

Maybe we should call them up to ask if hell is hot enough for them:D

[MinnFats]

8. no sympathy? c'mon, it's sad anytime someone dies by violence.

other than that it appears they were mercs, we don't know much about these guys. But you have to figure somebody loved 'em. (before anyone nails me, I know all the dead Iraqi civilians had loved ones too. I just wish this whole torrent of violence would come to an end.)
perhaps they couldn't afford to remain in the military and with bush's cuts to military pay, they decided to muster out and sign up for much more hazardous duty.


That said, I sure would like to know more about how many mercs are working for the "coalition" and just what they're doing.

[mhr]

9. Supporting Anything Bush Does Is Fraught With Peril

Forewarned is Forearmed.

Too many innocent Iraqi children have been killed and maimed for there to be much sympathy for mercenaries.

Remember that mercenaries are being hired from many countries.

Is it only because these paid killers are of American origin that people are so outraged or is it true compassion.

Instinct and observation tells one that the former not the latter applies.

One didn't see much compassion last spring when innocent Iraqis were being mowed down by the dozens.

One Remembers Rumsfled calling them Collateral Damage.

Seems the Iraqis could cliam the same for the mercenaries.

[DEMVET-USMC]

10. BRAVE MEN BRUTALLY MURDERDED

Perhaps you would rather these men have been U.S. troops. I expect they were former U.S. military personel. They died horrible deaths and I am angry that you and othrers make less of thier deaths because they were so called mercenarys. Would you rather the Gov. reinstitute the draft to fullfill these missions as our troop numbers are woefully inadequate to take on the tasks being assigned them. Please remember all the reservists and Guardsmen that are currently being activated. I`ve been a loyal Democrat my entire adult life and am deeply disturburbed at the cruel disregard being expressed by many in the DU forums towards these men. They died a horrible death at the hands of incredibly cruel people. Speaking of them in such a way does not further the Democratic Parties cause. I wish to note that RANDY on AIRAMERICARADIO made simular statements. This sort of talk will only help the GOP and hurt us DEMS. Do you honestly think KERRY or WES CLARK OR RICHARD CLARKE would in any way support such an attitude toward fellow Americans carring out dangerous difficult missions on the behalf of our Nation. Please , all Democrats, our Nation trully needs to be defefended against people who would kill you simply for being an American and never forget it....Oscar

[kath]

11. "They died a horrible death at the hands of incredibly cruel people" -

so did all the Iraqi civilians who were blown to bits during the bombing.
But the US media wouldn't show pictures of *them*, oh, no.

[DEMVET-USMC]

17. These men did not bomb the Iraqis

They were sent there to secure the oil pipelines. I blame much that has gone wrong with this second Iraq war on both GEORGE THE FIRST`S ADMIM. for failing to support the Iraqi rebellion he himself called upon the Iraqi People to embark upon, and then allowed Saddam`s forces to defeat them with helocopters and tanks which at that time we could have relatively easilly taken out as we had total control of the air and the Iraqi rebels were waging a successful campaign to overthrow his regime at that time. I also fault George the second for ignoring the advice of career military and inteligrnce personell as to how to conduct this current war , and most especially the occupational phase......Oscar P.S. Who do you think these "mercenararies" were? My guess is that they were former infantrymen without great career outlooks. I don`t think they were some wealthy GOP types, do you?.... Oscar

[truthspeaker]

23. But they're working for the people that did

[TroglodyteScholar]

35. Working for the people that did......?

Did you pay your taxes last year? Are you paying them this year? If so, you're working for the people that dropped the bombs, too.

I think most of us agree that we shouldn't have gone to war in Iraq, but to be so callous seems uncalled-for. These were human beings with human families.

[TankLV]

73. Spare us, both of you.

They knew what they were doing. They probably enjoyed killing the "enemy" - that's a typical mercinary type - not exactly your human-rights concerned person.

They got payed plenty for doing a dangerous paid-for job so bunkerboy could look good and not call up the forces necessary to do the job - a job they shouldn't have been in there to do in the first place.

Boo friggin hoo - they are gun crazy - kill em all types. Rejects from police academies, etc.

Look it up.

It's a just an emotionless "job" to kill others - but someone has to do it - and these BLACK OPS MERCINARIES - paid for hire killers - chose to do it.

Just like the Hussians the British hired during the American Revolution.

They are protecting the goons who are over there to loot and pillage the Iraqi people. More like the goons protecting Al Capone. They are NOT "like" our troops. I only wish our troops are safe and sound and HOME WHERE THEY BELONG!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

45. That's the humorous part..they've secured oild but not the people

and wonder why people suspect a hidden agenda

[Blue_Roses]

49. that may be true

"so did all the Iraqi civilians..." but it doesn't make it right. When ANYONE dies a violatal death like this--whoever it may be--it's a sad day. These 4 guys had families who are grieving. This whole Iraq war is despicable.

It just shouldn't be happening. Period.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DEMVET-USMC]

18. Read mhr`s post in this thread#9

Again, I find it cruel on the part of so many DUers to take such a callous attitude toward the fate of these men. ....Oscar

[bobthedrummer]

20. That is your perception of over 42,000 members

not mine.
Good night, btw welcome to DU!

[PaDUer]

117. We certainly have a lot of new

people posting here tonite.

[ConservativeDemocrat]

63. Kill people for money?

Do you have any evidence of that? Or are you just making things up?

Being a security guard does not make you a murderer.

- C.D.

[bobthedrummer]

70. Why are you calling mercenaries "security guards"?

What evidence would satisfy you, if any?:shrug:
I have plenty of anecdotal evidence from people (spooks) that I know and trust, people that have to live with themselves, several are coping the best they can with their memories.

I've had some of them share viewing ear necklaces and scalps for instance, that certainly convinced me of their veracity.
I'm sure not making this up.

Nice try, pal.

[ConservativeDemocrat]

76. Because people who guard food shipments are called that

> What evidence would satisfy you, if any?

A link to any even remotely mainstream source. Something from the BBC, for instance.

Face facts, while the U.S. press has a strong pro-Administration bias, the world press has a strong anti-Administration bias. Some even have an anti-U.S. bias - meaning that they don't even like President Clinton. If there was any evidence that there were mercenary death squads running around terrorizing Iraq, these people would be all over it like syrup on pancakes.


> I have plenty of anecdotal evidence from people (spooks) that I know and trust, people that have to live with themselves, several are coping the best they can with their memories.

Yes, and so they open up to you, your average anonymous poster in a far left chat room, rather than go talk to any of a dozen media outlets who would be more than happy to print the story - assuming they had the faintest amount of corroboration for it.


> I've had some of them share viewing ear necklaces and scalps for instance, that certainly convinced me of their veracity.

Yes, I've seen photos of ear necklaces and scalps too in various magazines. Usually it's a result of gang warfare or atrocities in Africa - which, due to the fact that the Administration doesn't intervene, the far left is happy to ignore.

I wonder what's more likely? You talking to a member of an American mercenary death squad? (Who somehow managed not to get arrested during the Clinton administration?) Or you talking to the left-wing equivalent of a 'fake Veteran'? (These are people - usually Republicans - who falsely claim to have served in various combat hot spots; their stories as as detailed and realistic sounding as they are false.)


> Nice try, pal.

Same back to you, pal.

- C.D.

[bobthedrummer]

77. Actually, I'm a musician. We know all kinds of people.

If you ever get a chance to hear The Books Banned you can talk to me personally.

I'm a public figure in a way, not so anonymous. Not shy either.

See ya around,
Bob

[lordwhorfin]

82. lordwhorfin

Well, I'm not willing to concede that they were just guarding food, although I am certainly not going to get in between you and drummer bob.

Here's a good article on Falluja from the Guardian indicating even further that this should have been no surprise:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1184184,00.html

[Media_Lies_Daily]

137. Do you actually believe that those highly-trained individuals were...

...guarding a food convoy? Do you still not recognize the NeoCons' cover story methodology?

[salin]

19. Welcome to DU, DEMVET-USMC

I, too, think that they died a horrible death. Killing alone is awful, but body descrecation is somehow even more atrocious.

I would argue, however, that the public debate we should have had before the invasion, and should continue to have is very related to what you are saying - but different.

I think there needs to be a discussion of the draft - not because I think we should have one - but because the policies this administration are pushing are far beyond the military capabilities, in terms of manpowr, that we currently have. There was a brief debate, cut off by Rumsfeld, from within top ranks about the size of force really needed for the Iraq operation - and occupation. Much larger than currently present. As a result, those who have chosen to serve are overextended, undersupported, and - apparently, underequipped. Guardsmen who are, in my understanding, meant to be an emergency reserve - either abroad or domestically, are given extended tours that disrupt their and their families' lives far more than could ever have been predicted.

Yet the rhetoric from some corners of this adminstration seems to be pushing for yet more conflicts. A question has to be asked - do we have the manpower? If not (which seems to be the case, given the extended tours) as a public do we want to 'hire out' these duties (at a much more expensive rate than it costs for current military)... or are we as a nation SO committed to these series of wars/conflicts (which ever target they chose next) that we are willing to activate the draft system? If we are not willing, should we really continue to undertake NEW endeavors?

I have been greatly saddened that these questions have not been asked, nor debated in public. From relatives experiences I understand that war and combat is hellish - and the costs of those on the ground - often extend far beyond the time period of the tour of duty (in physical and/or emotional/mental tolls). Our collective disconnect between the next battle versus the real human costs (be they US service members, or be they Iraqi or Afghan citizens) - seems to take the somberness out of the serious nature of war. Lets us as a public watch as if it is a John Wayne movie - and as in a movie shielding us from the real, human costs. It lets us turn our eyes away at the next disabled vet (or lets Bushco cut VA services while creating a large new generation of vets in needs of services.)

So in that context, I think the question of the use of mercenaries in place of our armed services is a question the public should be debating - as it forces us back to ask the question of each next point of engagement...

is this at the high level worth risking the lives of our servicemen...?

are we overcommitted and if so what is the cost to those servicemen (and women) we have committed...?

what is the point at which we can not sustain actions and need a draft - or an extensive use of mercenaries (and again - at what cost)?

The answers to those questions may not fall, in the public's sentiments, where my beliefs fall - but if there were honest public about the costs.. and by extension a public commitment to the final resolve (after real public discourse) - I think we would be in much better shape as a democracy (and I would bet that we would be taking much better care of those who choose and have chosen to serve.)

[DEMVET-USMC]

21. Apreciate the welcome salin

I seem to have gotten off to a controversial if not advisarial start here in the DU forum. It was not my intention but having been an infantryman for two tours as they called it back then < the VIET NAM WAR > I could not help but identify with these unlucky men. This sort of shit would happen to our patrlols time and again. They would be found by RECON in simular states of mutilation. Infantrymen were not taken prisoner. It was war and we killed them < the NVA > AS NECESSARY, and many of them. The outfits I served with did not torture or mutilate them. WHAT EVER.....Oscar P.S. I was posting about the BUSHs ,WALKERS and thier HITLER connection in 2000, during the last election when almost no one mentioned it. Anyone interested in that need only do a google search using :. There are litterally thousands of sites now in many languages regarding all that. Webster Tarpley and AITKINS are the original source for most of the documented info as to THE HITLER PROJECT and the Bush family....Oscar

[Skittles]

51. I'm curious

why did they leave themselves so vulnerable to attack? Surely they knew the danger. Something seems off. I'm not blaming them - I'm sickened by any kind of vigilante justice. I'm just curious if they specialized in security why they did not secure themselves.

[Submariner]

150. Darwinian selection weeds out the weakest

they had to be very careless to dare ride in unarmored vehicles without bullet-proof glass. They had no way to protect themselves while the vehicle is moving and the Iraqi's know that vulnerability.

They should have known better.

[saigon68]

57. For the third Time--These are Mercenaries not soldiers

They do not wear the uniform. Apparently all of them did once,, but for reasons only known to them they decided $$$ was more important than duty, honor, and country. If their company told them to go to Bumfuck Egypt and do this they would.

They are not governed by the ROE or the UCMJ. They are in it for the money, the rush, whatever. They got their asses kicked. They knew the consequences. Unlike, OUR WAR they were not DRAFTED

No sympathy here ---sorry

[PaDUer]

120. one was a fitness guru

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-3931675,00.html

[poppabear36]

22. Yes, I would

wish they reinstitute the draft. It would make Americans confront the true price of what they overwhelmingly supported - the invasion of a sovereign nation. We aren't protecting ourselves against those who would kill any American by being in Iraq - in fact we're provoking them to more brazen and heartless acts of violence.
These folks were mercenaries. They were former soldiers/sailors. They had no oath to serve America's interests. They were being paid handsomely to serve a corporation's interests.
BTW, I am a veteran, as is Randi Rhodes.
I picture myself just a few years ago being eligible to be called up for this Charlie Foxtrot and it pisses me off to know end to know that my brother's and sister's are over there, sitting ducks, being picked off every single day by roadside bombs, with no end in sight.

[Malva Zebrina]

27. they are not our troops

they are hired guns. Hired guns know what the risks are when they take on the job. Further, encouraging and making heroes out of hired guns, also encourages the use of a private army under George Bush. It can be considered his own army, loyal to him and the use of the same or the encouragement of the same will lead to dangerous siturations--as in Hitler's private army. These mercenaries are in effect, Bush's private army--they take no oath to defend the USA--their loyalty lies in the corporation that hired them and that corporation is most likely a Bush buddy.

Sure it is too bad they died or were killed, but ten thousand innocenets died who were not involved in any way with the fighting or were not in any way troops--we killed them all on the llies of Bush.


We are making such a big deal out their deaths--and no big deal about Bush's lies or the 600 troops who died. We ignore them and make a big sensational deal out of the deaths of four hired guns--

oh the humanity

[TroglodyteScholar]

39. Are you kidding?

"We are making such a big deal out their deaths--and no big deal about Bush's lies or the 600 troops who died. We ignore them and make a big sensational deal out of the deaths of four hired guns--
"

Surely you're being sarcastic. Our dead troops and the dead Iraqi civilians are constant topics of discussion here. Maybe you missed it?

[bloom]

41. The whole news establishment

as well as DU seems to be paying a LOT more attention to this incident than most Military deaths. In fact 5 military personnel were killed the same day as this incident (near Fallujah). They are barely mentioned.

The dismemberment - the riot - the hanging of charred bodies... has people paying more attention than usual.

This incident also seems to have a lot more people saying we should NUKE or flatten the town - Fallujah. That is some people's "answer". Not people at DU, at least - that is the difference.

[Malva Zebrina]

42. relax please--take your finger off the trigger--

perhaps I was not as clear as I needed to be or perhaps a lot of us are getting more anxious and stressed as the slaughter coninues in Iraq. I know I am.

"WE" in my post, meant the USA -- and by implication the Bush administration and his cronies--ie like Bremer.

[0007]

29. I think these are good questions for your Commander In Chief

I don't support the lying Commander Chief or the war your fighting any shape way or form.

But if we must, lets enact the draft today then let's get the show on the road and knock off all this secrecy that this administration harbor's and let the American folks know what the fuck we're doing.

Foreigner don't kill Americans simply for being an American, they kill us for policy that the U.S. has made that suppresses them. That is pure propagada and nothing more.

Why can't we learn from the Brit War in Iraq in the 1920's? Didn't they try to do the same we're doing today?

I think you ought to re-think your position Oscar.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

31. Before you get flammed or banned, let me help you brother Marine

Mercs know what they are getting into. Or should.
These guys clearly did.

Other cars with foriegners were not attacked in Faluja that day.

They were not killed just because they were driving through.

Obviously the crowd knew who they were, and what they have done. And we can only speculate on what that is....

the short list:

black ops of some kind
reprisials against family members of detainees
drug dealing
extortion
antiquities selling or buying
prostitution enforcement

or any number of other things that poorly=supervised semi-soldiers can and do get involved in whenever given the opportunity.

[bullimiami]

48. SORRY VET.

>>>Perhaps you would rather these men have been U.S. troops. I expect they were former U.S. military personel. They died horrible deaths and I am angry that you and othrers make less of thier deaths because they were so called mercenarys. Would you rather the Gov. reinstitute the draft to fullfill these missions as our troop numbers are woefully inadequate to take on the tasks being assigned them. <<<


NO.
WE WOULD HAVE RATHER THAT WE WERENT IN IRAQ AT ALL.
MILITARY ARE ORDERED TO GO, THEY DO WHAT THEY ARE TOLD, THEY SHOULD ONLY BE SENT TO RISK THEIR LIVES AND TAKE THOSE OF OTHERS AS A LAST RESORT.
THESE GUYS CHOSE TO BE SOLDIERS AS A LUCRATIVE WAY TO MAKE CASH.
THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN DOING THIS SOMEWHERE IN THE WORLD IF NOT IRAQ, THATS THE OCCUPATION THEY CHOSE.

I THINK YOU ARE OFF THE MARK HERE BROTHER.

[saigon68]

54. I agree with you

They are Mercenaries, and like or not the DARWIN principle applies, they are now out of the picture because of their own stupidity.

[mike1963]

86. Bullshit. They were killed instantly. Dead bodies don't feel pain.

A brother of one of these soldiers of fortune said on TV "he was just trying to do the right thing...return Democracy to Iraq..." More bullshit. If that's what these assholes want to do, they could do it in the military or in other ways for WAY less $$$$$$$$$$$$.

Bah.
No sympathy from this veteran.
:grr:

[Media_Lies_Daily]

135. "Horrible death at the hands of incredibly cruel people"??...

While as a former serviceman myself I agree with MOST of what you said. But your comment noted above tells me a lot about what you think about the Iraqi people. Speaking of "incredibly cruel", did you happen to see any of the pictures of the dead and injured Iraqi civilans after our bombing raids on their cities and towns? Would you also classify those actions as the products of "incredibly cruel" people, PARTICULARLY SINCE THEY WERE INNOCENT PEOPLE AND EVERY SINGLE REASON THE NEOCONS HAVE STATED FOR GOING TO WAR IN IRAQ HAS BEEN EXPOSED AS BALD-FACED LIES???

Would you be "incredibly cruel" to enemy troops if the U. S. had been invaded and occupied by a foreign power? I'm guessing that under those circumstances we all could be driven to doing things we might not have ever thought possible.

I also have a great deal of difficulty believing that our military, much less the mercenaries, is doing anything "on behalf of our Nation". Our troops are under orders to be in Iraq, a place in which they very much do not want to be, and the mercenaries are doing their work in exchange for a great deal of money.

You want someone to blame for this mess? Blame Junior and the Neocons, not the Democrats and others that are just beginning to protest this war.

[louinc]

156. Working for a great deal of money

At a great deal of risk, you don't work in a war zone for minimum wage, unless you're in the miltary.

louinc

[Media_Lies_Daily]

164. And your point is?

[louinc]

155. I was losing hope I was the only democrat who felt bad for these men.

Mercenaries: are typically soldiers hired by who ever to fight their cause. These men were security guards over there trying to make a difference for the people of Iraq. It shames me that there are those of you who sit comfortably and safely at your computers terminals making fun of the horrible and unnecessary way they died.

louinc

[bobbyboucher]

187. They chose to be there.

For whatever reason. This board is overwhelmingly anti-war, period. Don't come in and pretend to speak for Democrats and use words like "shame" and "sit comfortably at their computers" with regard to this illegal war.

Congress did not declare war, pal, and the American people, especially those here at DU, do not approve of this idiocy. And when you prance out some poll about how this war is approved, remember, it was put forth upon the American people based upon lies, half-truths, and fear mongering, and the facts about what is going on are still being hidden.

This whole thing stinks like a mother-fucker. And nobody is making fun, troll, so quit saying it. Some, and I repeat, some people here have little or no sympathy for mercs. I have a hard time being sympathetic for people who choose a career where killing is the product.

[davekriss]

159. I don't agree

"fellow Americans carring out dangerous difficult missions on the behalf of our Nation"

These were not altruistic men carrying out a mission on behalf of the American people. They chose to pursue a lucrative paycheck in a dangerous field with a for-profit corporation, most likely because they glorified violence and the use of brutal force. Alternately they could've chosen to become mailmen, accountants, or social workers. So I do not put their deaths, horrible as they were, on the same moral footing as a U.S. serviceman who believed, by joining the U.S. armed forces, they were protecting Liberty for all of us back home. In fact, my moral compass leads me to question what the f**k they were doing over there in the first place.

[leftchick]

24. according to the US Military about 15,000...

and since they lie about all of their stats it is probably double.

[BiggJawn]

52. Hey, even Hitler was loved by SOMEONE...

Does that mean he deserves sympathy? I don't think so.
as for how many, I heard the figure "15,000" stated today on Diane Rehm's show.

And a thousand dollars a day. And maybe they just liked the idea of making a LOT of fat cash and have authority to kill people, too.

Having sympathy for Mercs is like having sympathy for the Devil, IMO.

[skooooo]

131. I agree...

I don't defend the reasons they are over there, but I don't like to see anyone die this way. We don't know anything about these men who died. They may not have even fired a weapons since they arrived.

<shrug>

[The_Casual_Observer]

12. Elite - I love it when they use a word like this

Yeah, they looked elite hanging from that bridge. If they were foolish enough to intentionally strut around that place like hard asses then they might of had it coming. What Hubris!

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lucky777]

13. Same story thru history

I was watching the Mel Gibson movie (ugh) called The Patriot, and it was about how a colonist (played by Gibson) brutally mutilates and hacks to death some English soldiers who kill his kids. We are supposed to understand his pain since the occupiers killed his kids. I don't see how this is so different. I was disgusted by the actions of the Iraqis too but I guess I might do something like that if my family members were killed and I saw America as an invading force in my backyard. The Vietnamese did the same thing too. Best solution -- don't invade and occupy another country.

I had to laugh when the pentagon said it was "insurgents" but on TV it was kids and guys with bicycles coming out of stores to join the mob -- they looked like average joes, not military types.

[NNN0LHI]

25. But I thought they were delivering food to the needy Iraqis? n/t

[Babel_17]

30. This leads me to suspect

the presence of a mole(s) or insiders playing both sides of the game.

Related to this: I've been railing for a while against the notion that the Iraqis are political novices. There history is redolent with the practice of intrigue and even their recent history strongly suggests that their political process required a lot of skill.

Much in the way it has been suggested that "Yankees" tend to underestimate the shrewdness of anyone with a southern accent here in the USA I fear our administrators have been discounting the ability of the Iraqi resistance to anticipate and respond to our far from subtle attempts to pacify that nation.

[lordwhorfin]

83. Damn good point

The human rights workers killed last week were killed by people who were dressed as Iraqi police. They may even have BEEN Iraqi police.

[Layman]

145. Excellent tidbit of analysis

"You mean to say somebody not raised on McDonald's protein and American holiness could outsmart us? Are you kidding? Are you out of your cottonin' pickin' mind? You're one of those bleedin' heart liberals, ain't ya?.. thinkin' if you're white and you just up and die that's best for everybody all around? Right? Well, I'm a true blue American and I ain't rollin' over for no one. That's the trouble with you pinko limp wrists lefty deep thinker types. Man, you guys roll too easily. Why any day now those sandniggers are goin' be droppin' to their knees but instead of praising Allah they'll be crying uncle, Uncle Sam that is. Instead of facing Mecca they'll be kissin' ass to the red, white and blue. That's right. Praying to the capitol of American power, Washington D.C.. Or is it New York? Always get that confused. Anyhow, if they don't like it, well, we'll just take'em out. Damn straight. And I ain't talking about treatin'em to no Mickey D's happy meal, if you know what I mean, moonbeam. I mean we ain't the biggest baddest buttkickin' military machine on this planet Earth for nothin' jellybean."
To be continued.

[DrBB]

32. $1000 a day per man to guard food convoy?

Ex-Navy Seals tasked to guard food trucks, when food convoys, acc. to what I've been reading, are not targets the insurgents have been going after? At a cost of $1000 a day per guard?

Gee, I wonder if they're just giving us some kinda cover story. Ya think?

[sistersofmercy]

33. TO All DUERS WHO SOMEHOW BELIEVE THESE 4 MEN GOT

what was coming. I am deeply sadden by your views. These 4 men were human beings, fellow Americans, who were doing a job in order to provide for their families. No one deserves to die for this criminal war. We may not agree in principle with what they were doing but we must refrain from a callous attitude towards any and all American deaths as a result of this criminal war. Do you also condone the maiming and killling of our soldiers? Citing Iraqi civilian deaths by the US military presence is not a valid argument for lending any support for the Iraqis who did this deed. All if this blood is on the bush* administration's hands. We must not allow our anger with the maladministration to drift to those men and women who are just employees.

[Spentastic]

34. Yeah

Just like those normal Germans doing a job to support their families.

If you bomb a country and steal it resources don't turn up exmpecting flowers.

[NNN0LHI]

38. Are you suggesting that these 4 men deserved equally not to die...

...as some kid in Iraq who had a bomb dropped on his house while he slept during Shock And Awe? The bomb that hit the kid helped create the job these guys were doing in Iraq. No one deserves to die. But lets face the facts here. These men took money to take up arms against Iraqis who feel they are fighting for their country. This was dirty money these men were taking. This was not just a job. They were profiting from others misery. Do you understand that?

Don

[sistersofmercy]

64. I suggested no such thing

I am stating that I refuse to take such a perspective regardless of whether I disagree morally with their decision in employment. I completely understand the Iraqi perspective, they are nationalists, its their country and they want us out. We should have been there to begin with. I feel for all of those on both sides who have lost a son, daughter, mother, father etc as a result of this crimal war. I will never believe anyone had any of this coming to them, except of course, when bush co are in the Hague being tried for crimes against humanity.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

168. Let's face some more facts, shall we? If not for the actions of the...

...NeoCon Junta getting us into these Middle Eastern conflicts in the first place, nobody of any nationality would be dying such violent useless deaths, would they?

The NeoCon Junta, and their corporate pals, is the only group that I believe is profiting from this madness.

Do you understand that?

[Nihil]

40. There's a big difference between a soldier and a mercenary

> These 4 men were human beings, fellow Americans, who were doing a job

Unfortunately, that "job" definitely involved being armed (& armoured)
in a war zone and a willingness to discharge their weapons in the
process of delivering the service for which they were hired.

These little details set them apart from the average Jack or Jill in
the USA, your true fellow Americans. The mercenaries are (fortunately)
a different breed and, as such, are treated differently.

> ... we must refrain from a callous attitude towards any and all
> American deaths as a result of this criminal war.

So any other nationality is fair game then? Thanks a bunch.

You have just (unwittingly?) underlined one major reason *why* so many
people in the world are quick to pounce on American misfortunes.
News flash: Non-Americans really ARE as important as Americans.

> Do you also condone the maiming and killling of our soldiers?

Certainly not. Moreover, I seriously doubt whether any of the people
who have displayed a "callous attitude" towards the mercenaries would
even fleetingly support your suggeestion.

Why do people love this hyperbole, this binary argument that is so
common these days?

Why do Democrats increasingly resort to the use of George Bush's
approach, "You're either with us or against us"?

Nihil

[Finder]

46. Well....

"Those who choose to live by the sword...must be prepared to die by the sword." comes to mind.

[lumpy]

195. I am one who saves my tears

for the innocents who are killed and maimed in the almighty name of bush.

[Malva Zebrina]

43. nice bit of equivocation--no one is happy these people got killed

and no one here, as far as I can see, wants more of the same. The whole Iraq slaughter is a nightmare for everyone. Ten thousand Iraqi dead civilians, however, were not even making a thousand dollars a week to protect the interests of coporations who ran there to greedily soak up the spoils. These hired guns were there to see to it that the corporate interests that took over the land and assets of the Iraqi people, are not harmed by those Iraqis who resent the taking of their national assets and the killing of their families all on the lies of Bush, who we all know and certainly they know, was done so that those national assets could be handed over to Bush's rich buddies like Halliburton.



you are trying to equate them with our troops. They are NOT our troops. They are in effect private troops--hired guns--mostly retured military men, but men who take no oath to the US to defend the constitution or any of that. They are privately concripted hired guns and so are not in the same catagory as the troops. Apples and oranges

Thinking that through, who exactly do they owe their loyalty to if they are not there in the capacity of US troops?

[bobthedrummer]

47. Here is who they are "loyal" to, Marianne

Post-war Contractors Ranked by Total Contract Value in Iraq and Afghanistan
http://www.publicintegrity.org/wow/resources.aspx?act=total

Campaign Contributions of Post-war Contractors
http://www.publicintegrity.org/wow/resources.aspx?act=contrib

I wonder if these mercenaries had not been Americans would there be this much interest, because Blackwater employs a number of them from Chile, South Africa, and other countries.

The bottomline is that they choose to do this for the $$$, and there are some very sick puppies among them, including some pathological cases that were drummed out of military, law enforcement and intelligence from all over the world imo.

[theHandpuppet]

91. It made me sick yesterday...

... to find out that the Daschles, of all people, are profiting from the privatized military corporation industry -- Linda Daschle is a Washington lobbyist for one which landed a big fat contract in Iraq.

I'm profoundly disappointed and dismayed that there seems to be no end to the corruption and greed for blood money in Washington, even within our own party. :(

[sistersofmercy]

59. perhaps I wasn't clear when I labeled them "employees"

I understand perfectly the difference between US soldiers and private contractor employees. I will reiterate, "No one deserves to die as a result of this criminal war" even private contractor employees. Furthermore, I never wrote that some were happy about the incident but rather view this tragedy in the harsh manner of "they had it coming." No one had any of this coming to them, not the Iraqis, not the US soldiers and not the private contractor employees. Again, "All of this blood is on the bush* administration's hands." I hope to see the whole bush* co gang in the Hague sometime in the not to distant future for crimes against humanity.

[mike1963]

87. Would you grieve so eloquently at a similar demise of a Mafioso hired to

murder your parents? I don't think so.
:eyes:

[PaDUer]

119. Yes, they were retired navy seals. n/t

[saigon68]

53. Sorry I don't buy it

These people are mercenaries in an ugly illegal War. They knew the risks and unfortunatley showed up a little early for the barbacue.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

84. Me either, and I have seen these types up close and personal

in another war zone... VietNam.

Which was no where near as illegal, dirty, or ugly.

[saigon68]

132. Hard to believe that Nam was less illegal, dirty, or ugly.

But upon reflection you are right.

No one I have hear about was stomped, burned, dragged and hung up on a lampost by the VC in Nam, almost live on tape.

How about more "Stupid" than Nam ?

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

148. More blatent.... yes stupid even.... certinaly more inflammatory

I am sure there were such attrocities during our time, but there was no live video feed out in the villes.
I do recall there was one group of VC who liked to string up elders and disembowel them, then turn the pigs loose. But that was pretty much one sick VC commander's idea of fun, IIRC.

But, we did not have all these "contractors" running around then either, doing God knows what.

[saigon68]

154. Actually Laos was over run with them.

They were Air America, Continental Airways, Cat and a number of others. The USAF had some "Civilians" at secret bases

http://www.ravens.org/ LINK

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

160. Yeah, but not in the numbers and everywhere like this shitpit

CIA had lots of operatives in and around Saigon too, and there were the security guys for plantations and such.

[saigon68]

162. Got to agree--- there are 15,000 "Contractors" they admit to

Probably another 20,000 they won't admit to. Maybe even more--one thing for sure the Genie is OUT of the bottle.

[BiggJawn]

56. "Ich vos onlik vollowing oders!"

Diodn't wash at Nuremburg, doesn't wash here.

These men were Mercenaries. Mercs get paid to kill people and destroy things. part of the reason people hire Mercs is that they operate outside the law.

"Private Security Specialists"...Yeah, and the guys who rounded up the Jews for Himmler were "Urban Relocation Specialists"...

Nobody held a gun to these men or their families to force them to be what they were. Only greed and perhaps some psychosis made them Mercenaries.

Surely they didn't think they were getting a kilobuck a day because they were so HANDSOME????

[saigon68]

58. Not handsome Now

[BiggJawn]

61. Definitely not.

Hope they enjoyed their money.

[saigon68]

65. This says it all

Les enfants responsable de la guerre sont des criminels

[rasputin1952]

85. Good post sisterofmercy...

our objective is to bring our people home in one piece. To equate these deaths with anything but sorrow and horror is to ensure we will be there longer than we need be.

I would think that most progressives at DU would find it within themselves to realize that these were no less human than those who died in uniform, or the thousands of civilians that died in Iraq.

Death is death, regardless of who or how. To make light of it, demeans us all.

:(

[Layman]

146. Pity and Contempt

Cool sister. I can dig it. What's wrong with peace, love and happiness anyway, right? But you know what sister, what goes round comes around.
It's the old ying/yang thing no? Good and bad, love and hate, the spiritual and the physical. Life's filled with all these competing, contrary impulses and it's wrong to deny any of them. So, on the one hand, it's O.K. to feel hate and contempt for one of your paisanos that's turned traitor. But that shouldn't be one's total response. After finishing with the viseral rush of patriotic passion or anti-patriotic passion as the case maybe, we also need to step back and mourn the loss of their lives not becauase of the way they died but the way they lived their lives, working class traitors riding shotgun for a bunch of rapacious, racists Republicans. They turned against their own class, against their own fellow humans because they were brought up in the most sophisticated brainwashing dehumanizing systems ever evolved, the good old U.S. of A.. So yes I pity them sister, I pity their lost lives and I pity all our lost lives. What kind of different of world would we be living in if it weren't for this cannibalistic cabal running our world. But all that doesn't forbid me feeling satisfaction at their demise. When you come down to it, it means 4 less Repugthugs voting this November. And we're going to need every litle bit of help we can get.

[IndianaGreen]

184. The Gestapo were "just employees"

as were all of the bureaucrats of the Third Reich. This did not excuse their culpability for their own role, active or passive, in the horrors of the Holocaust.

We attacked Iraq without provocation. We are the Third Reich of the 21st century.

While I regret every loss of life, I won't join the herd in turning these mercenaries into some sort of humanitarian force, which they were not.

Let's bring all of our troops and personnel out of Iraq, NOW. And for Heaven's sake, keep those Xtian missionaries out of that country!

[abracadabra]

186. No grief here one bit !!-you choose to murder for money-you lose-too bad

No sadness here for any hired killers who work outside the law for those who pretend to represent our government(and by the way do not at all represent our country in any way--only corporate $ )

Mercenaries have nothing to do with the armed forces (retired seals are retired-)-
Tough guys ?-too many Rambo movies growing up-
Shoulda thought about their families first and not the quick buck.

And I blame the corporations who are trying to set up shop and take someone else's natural resources.
It's these greedy pigs that hire these retired navy guys and if the sleeze corporations think they can steal in another country let them defend themselves.

Enough killing !!!
Let them keep their oil !!
Go home-
It's not worth it !!!

[jpgray]

36. Hard to judge these folks without more information

But if Dyncorp in Bosnia is any indication, I would worry about the lack of oversight on these 'commandos' that accompanies their private status.

[theHandpuppet]

92. Sheds a whole new light on this, doesn't it?

US retaliates over war crime immunity demand

By Bill Vann
5 July 2003

In a further bid to place US officials and military personnel beyond the reach of war crimes prosecution, the Bush administration cut off military aid to about 35 countries that failed to meet a June 30 deadline for signing bilateral immunity agreements.

Washington had demanded such deals with all the countries that have signed on to the International Criminal Court (ICC), using the threat of the aid cutoff to impose its will on foreign powers that are considered US allies. At least 90 have reportedly resisted the US blackmail effort. The Bush administration claims that 51 nations have signed immunity agreements, seven of them “secretly.”

<snipping>

Actually, the immunity deals sought by Washington protect not only uniformed soldiers and government officials, but all US citizens as well as foreign contractors working for the Pentagon or other US agencies. Presumably, any American mercenary engaged in war crimes in another country would be immune from prosecution, as would any foreign mercenary working under the direction of US military or intelligence.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/jul2003/icc-j05_prn.shtml

[rinsd]

44. One of them was from San Diego

Local Article:

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20040402/news_1n2scott.html

[PaDUer]

161. Very telling article...

$$$$

[Barrett808]

50. "a harsh, well-thought-out response"

But Baker, a former CIA case officer, added that how the military is "responding is going to be very important. If there's not a harsh, well-thought-out response, they will take that as a complete sign of weakness and they will become emboldened."

Yeah. That'll help.

[daleo]

60. Sorry, this sounds fishy, like there is more to it (CIA connection?)

Too much of a James Bond movie feel to it -

"among the most elite commandos working in Iraq "
...
"set up as targets"
...
"the men were guarding a convoy on its way to deliver food to troops under a subcontract to a company named Regency Hotel and Hospitality".

That last bit sounds like a cover.

[saigon68]

62. It is too good to be true

Buyer of any of these HORSESHIT stories beware!!!!!!

[chimpymustgo]

66. Anyone hear Barbera Slavin (USA Today) on Dianne Rheim this morning?

She implied real scepticism about the "official story" - of who these guys worked for and what they were doing in Falluja.

As always with these crooks, there's more to this than meets the eye. Wonder if we'll ever know the real story.

[saigon68]

68. Keep your eyes open and your ears glued

This story has legs and won't go away

[CabalBuster]

74. Mercenaries from different countries are also being recruited

"The US is hiring mercenaries in Chile to replace its soldiers on security duty in Iraq. A Pentagon contractor has begun recruiting former commandos, other soldiers and seamen, paying them up to $4,000 (£2,193) a month to guard oil wells against attack by insurgents.

Last month Blackwater USA flew a first group of about 60 former commandos, many of who had trained under the military government of Augusto Pinochet, from Santiago to a 2,400-acre (970-hectare) training camp in North Carolina.

From there they will be taken to Iraq, where they are expected to stay between six months and a year, the president of Blackwater USA, Gary Jackson, told the Guardian by telephone."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1162392,00.html

[saigon68]

125. They will then use their torture tactics on the population.

I'm sure they are going to pay "guards" $4000.00 per month. Not. They could hire Filipinos and Thais for $500.00 per month to do that job, stand around with a gun and eat donuts. No, there's more here with the Chilean Commandos than meets the eye.

[bhunt70]

69. Just because they know what they were getting into

doesn't mean they deserve what they get.

Cops know what they are getting into
firefighters know what they are getting into
doctors that do abortions know what they are getting into...

Whatever their capacity, they are still dead. They were american citizens and someones family members. Im not asking that people cry for them or even feel bad they are dead...thats up for each person to decide, but seriously thinking they got what they deserved is ridiculous.

[saigon68]

72. When you go into a bull pen wearing a red Shirt

You get your ass kicked.

It's the DARWIN AWARDS ALL OVER

Sorry but that's the way it is

For $200,000.00 per year employees they weren't the brightest bulbs on the tree!!!!!

[TankLV]

75. How dare you! Have you no shame?!

They are not like our "cops", "firefighters" or "doctors" - all of whom serve to PROTECT AND DEFEND AND CARE FOR AND HELP others in our society.

I would bet my house and life that these guys are sickos who get a kick out of killing and who couldn't hack it or were drummed out of the regular military or civilian police forces.

Certainly, you're kidding when you suggest that some doctors and firefighters are amongst them? I could fathom a comparison to cops and soldiers, but only as an abstract concept to shoot down.

No - these guys are more akin to released criminals on death row who get a chance to "get outside" if they perfoem a "certain job".

You insult ALL of us by you feeble comparisons!

[DoNotRefill]

104. That's pretty strong...

"I would bet my house and life that these guys are sickos who get a kick out of killing and who couldn't hack it or were drummed out of the regular military or civilian police forces."

Do you have ANYTHING to back that up, or are you just slandering the dead because they can't do anything about it?

Hint: To be involved with this kind of thing you need a valid security clearance and State Department approval. If they couldn't hack it or were drummed out of the service, they'd lose their security clearance AND wouldn't get approval to deploy from State.

[bobthedrummer]

110. Not necessarily so.

Just no felony conviction or dishonorable discharge. Resignations, for instance, would be ok.
So are reprimands.
The mercenaries also are old boy networks for a lot of creeps intergenerationally, lots of nepotism.

[DoNotRefill]

112. The SF community....

is VERY tightly knit. If somebody flaked out and resigned, do you REALLY think other people in that community would work with them? Blackwater is run by long-term operators. Do you think they'd hire somebody who had a serious "oops" on their record?

[bobthedrummer]

114. You'd be amazed about it-records are only paper.

Weird things happen to records in this 21st century as we grow more paperless.

[DoNotRefill]

116. You're missing the point.

Since the SF community is so tightly knit, an "oops" doesn't just go on your record or not, people know about it, and word gets around. It's not like you just show your DD-214 and they give you a job....it's a matter of proper networking, and knowing each other, and giving appropriate verifiable references.

[TankLV]

153. Yes I do.

Read the other posts, more extensive than mine, that describe just who these so-called "poor innocent victums" are.

They are not someone I'd be proud to know.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

166. I'm curious how you might feel about these people...

...if you had ever served in the military and had faced combat together. I wonder how you might have felt if one of those people had just happened to save your life in a bad situation.

Once again, I'm going to ask you to cool your commentary on this subject. We have quite a few DUers that have "seen the elephant", and I'm pretty sure they find your remarks offensive to say the least.

[TankLV]

171. You can go stuff your righteous indignation.

I find your remarks extrememly offensive, to say the least.

My father, all my uncles, most of my friends, and my partner and his nephews and son-in-law all served or are serving.

They all agree with me. They all knew people like these goons. They have absolutely no pity for them. They would have watched their backs FROM them.

These "people" have nothing to do with saving other honerable persons or our soldiers.

They are thugs protecting ONLY the Halliburton goons - just like the mob enforcers protecting their bosses.

You should be ashamed.

[pooltablerepairman]

193. "You can go stuff your righteous indignation."

"I find your remarks extrememly offensive, to say the least.

My father, all my uncles, most of my friends, and my partner and his nephews and son-in-law all served or are serving."

I noticed YOU are not on the list.

"They all agree with me. They all knew people like these goons. They have absolutely no pity for them. They would have watched their backs FROM them."

I doubt very much that unless those people you mentioned were part of
the Special Operations community, they knew ANYBODY like those men. I suspect either you or they are being somewhat less than truthful.

Perhaps you would care to tell us WHERE they got to know all these operators.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

140. IMHO, you're going too far to attempt to prove your point...

...you're attempting to lump all of the mercernaries into what you believe to be true about them. Just as not all cops are good people, not all mercernaries are bad people.

I'm willing to bet that most of these people could not find ANY work in the States that would have paid them anywhere close to what they were being paid as mercernaries. Additionally, just in case you hadn't noticed, we are in pretty bad shape economically...with their previous military training where else could that have gotten work?

[TankLV]

152. I don't for a second believe that.

These thugs were "protecting" Halliburton criminals while they loot the country and overcharge US Taxpayers up the wazoo for their "skills".

I don't buy it for a second that these guys are poor "innocent upstanding persons".

Anyone protecting the actions of the single, only, hand-picked FRIENDS and FORMER EMPLOYEERS of the scum occupying our white house, with NO competition, or fair bidding, for an illegal "war" instituted mainly to enrich themselves and their pals as long as someone ELSE pays the price (our soldiers and us taxpayers), will NEVER get any credit, sympathy or anything from me.

Only god knows if they got what they deserved - I could care less. I choose to focus my care and thoughts on persons who deserve it. They got plenty of MY money - blood money - doing their "job". They weren't "boy scouts" by any means.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

165. Were you ever in the military? If so, in what field did you train...

...and if you got out of the military, are you still working in that same field? I can tell you for a fact that there was no call for Naval Gunfire expertise when I got out in 1981.

Now, to address the "points" in your post. I've never said that all of the mercenaries are "innocent upstanding persons"...that's your quote, not mine. I challenge you to find anything in my current or previous posts on this topic making allegations even close to what you just stated.

Some of these "thugs" had families. Is it okay to feel bad for them or do I need your permission to do so?

How many Iraqis do you think these "thugs" have killed as opposed to the tens of thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians killed by our regular military and National Guard? Do you believe our soldiers are "thugs", too?

One more point...you need to cool the rhetorical crap you're shoveling onto this board. I'm as much against the characters that are occupying the centers of American government as anyone else on DU. If I feel the need of a sermon, I'll go to church.

[TankLV]

172. Again, stuff it buster.

And you'd best better take your own advice.

We don't appreciate being preached to either.

I will call a spade a spade.

And you would be wise to stop using straw men. I have loved ones in the military. I support all the honest ones. And, in case you've been asleep, there have been proven instances where some of those soldiers are "thugs" and have committed atrocities and hopefully they will be punished for it.

I'm not telling you not to feel sorry for these thugs families. That's your perrogative. "I won't waste my beautiful mind on it" to quote a real bitch - and I have a better reason.

If you don't like what I have to say - too bad - suffer.

There are plenty of other on this board who agree with me.

I could tell you where you could put your shovel.

And, BTW, I do find what was done to these persons horrible beyond contemplation. They still were not "poor innocent contractors" - that is a fact.

[lolly]

80. Faulty Analogy

"People who go into honorable but risky professions who know what they are getting into" and "People who go into violent, dishonorable, and risky professions who know what they are getting into" are NOT comparable.

Being a fireman is risky.
Being a hit man for the mafia is also risky.

Are you saying I should feel as bad for the hit man who is assassinated in the course of his work as I do for the fireman who dies trying to rescue a child from a burning building?

[mike1963]

88. "...cops know what they're getting into..." Usually, but I could write a

book about when I was one working my way through college. The phrase "good cop, bad cop" exists for a reason. I knew cops who bragged about "thumping" on people - for no good reason but they were homeless, drunk, gay, black, or 'other.' Admittedly this was 35 years ago and hopefully it happens less, but it still does.

Point is, there is a huge difference between a policeman performing his duties as prescribed, and some guy hiring out as an unsupervised private commando.

[Joanne98]

78. For profit killers have to be made illegal

A treaty needs to be created outlawing them globally. Then they should be rounded up and put to death. They're evil.

[mia]

79. US NC: Soldiers of Good Fortune

http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v03.n1116.a01.html

SOLDIERS OF GOOD FORTUNE

They fly helicopters, guard military bases and provide reconnaissance. They're private military companies--and they're replacing U.S. soldiers in the war on terrorism...

Indeed, the Bush administration's push to privatize war is swiftly turning the military-industrial complex of old into something even more far-reaching: a complex of military industries that do everything but fire weapons. For-profit military companies now enjoy an estimated $100 billion in business worldwide each year, with much of the money going to Fortune 500 firms like Halliburton, DynCorp, Lockheed Martin, and Raytheon. Secretary of the Army Thomas White, a former vice chairman of Enron, "has really put a mark on the wall for getting government employees out of certain functions in the military," says retired Colonel Tom Sweeney, professor of strategic logistics at the U.S. Army War College. "It allows you to focus your manpower on the battlefield kinds of missions."

Private military companies, for their part, are focusing much of their manpower on Capitol Hill....

(more)

[Logansquare]

81. Blackwater is a bottom feeder in the military-industrial foodchain

that is draining our treasury. The occupation of Iraq is no longer a military operation, but a corporate start-up--one without a viable business plan other than enriching some already very rich men. I thought it was about oil, but really, the oil guys realized it that was almost played out. The real money is in war.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

89. I lament the death of anyone - but Mercenaries feed on blood

They are not citizen soldiers who sacrifice their lives for their country. They would be unemployed if there weren't some dictator to protect somewhere in the world or some stinking blood-letting that requires their services. They flock to death like moths to a flame. Even if they once served under our banner, they gave that up when they printed "Have Gun - Will Travel" on their business card. They don't deserve the same respect or gratitude that one would give to a soldier of his/her country. We shouldn't revel in their deaths, nor should we honor their memory.

[DoNotRefill]

93. G.I. Jane?

I hate to be a gossip-monger, but rumor has it that the 4th "mercenary" (and the only one yet to be named) killed and mutilated was female.

[daleo]

95. One worked on the set of J.I. Jane, but was male

He was a personal trainer type in Hollywood for some years, which included working on J.I. Jane - that may be the reference you heard.

[DoNotRefill]

101. Nope....

I've heard this from two sources that are not in connected "loops". One of the dead was a woman. Expect it to break next week.

[RowWellandLive]

103. All of the dead were men

their names have all been released. The first four are identified with pictures in my post 100 down below. The forth was just identified as a 48 year old male from Hawaii. I'll try to find you a link.

[DoNotRefill]

105. I read your post and looked at the link.

they name THREE, not four.

[daleo]

163. Globe and Mail had profiles of 3 men, used the pronoun he for the other

The fourth wasn't yet identified, but they used the pronoun "he" when talking about that person. I think if there was a female involved, we would be hearing about it by now. It would help to rile up support for a 'punitive action' against Fallujah.

[RummyTheDummy]

94. I guess it turns out they weren't too elite after all.

Sorry to see it happened, but you live by the sword you die by it.

[realdeal22k]

97. Right you are

Want to guess how many of the body burning people survive the next few weeks of pacification? My guess is less than zero.

[rfkrocks]

99. No way

Pacification is not a term for this conflict because we are occupying their country-kill the kids who ripped the bodies apart? Thats just what they want our dumb ass president to do-and he is capable of doing it-it is amazing that in time of national peril we have a stone cold moron as POTUS-the burning bodies were meant to get a reaction-then there is more propaganda because we will kill innocent people and in a tribal society you are obligated to kill the person who killed your family member-our guys shot this town up a week before the killings but that got buried in the neocon press-we can't win this-hell even Schwartzkopf and Powell said we needed hundreds of thousands of troops to occupy Iraq in 1991-what happened in between the years-did the country shrink?-our 100,000 troops can't do it and if Bushco thought it was so important he would order another 200,000 troops to Iraq-but we can't do that without a draft and there well Bush is a wuss

[pinniped]

98. How were they set up?

Did these so-called contractors (mercs) ask someone for directions or something?

[RowWellandLive]

100. The Dead

http://www.jayreding.com/archives/004440.php

I apologize for linking a right wing site but in this I actually agree with the commentary.

These men were human beings with families who loved them. I will not spit on their graves. They were brutally murdered and I will mourn them as we all should.

Comments such as in this post are despicable and a disservice to the progressive cause. I only hope none of their loved ones ever ventures here.

[IndianaGreen]

102. "the men may have been American intelligence operatives"

A Blackwater spokesman said the men were guarding a convoy on its way to deliver food to troops under a subcontract to a company named Regency Hotel and Hospitality.

The US government and military have stated that the four Americans were contractors working for the private security firm, Blackwater Security, and employed to protect food deliveries in the Fallujah area. No explanation has been given as to why they were so far inside the city. AP cameras filmed a US Department of Defence identification card among the wreckage, giving rise to suspicions that the men may have been American intelligence operatives.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/apr2004/fall-a01.shtml

[RowWellandLive]

106. So??

from the evidence I've heard so far there were booby traps set up and these men were just in the wrong place at the wrong time. It doesn't seem as if they were targeted, it could have been anyone killed.

And even if they were American Intelligence operatives, do you believe they deserved to be murdered so brutally and have their bodies mutilated and put on display? Can you not mourn for their humanity and the loved ones they left behind?

[IndianaGreen]

109. No one here mourns for the tens of thousands Iraqis we murdered

under both the Clinton and the Bush Administration, as the following 2000 article by The Guardian's John Pilger illustrates:

Squeezed to death

Half a million children have died in Iraq since UN sanctions were imposed - most enthusiastically by Britain and the US. Three UN officials have resigned in despair. Meanwhile, bombing of Iraq continues almost daily. John Pilger investigates

Saturday March 4, 2000

Wherever you go in Iraq's southern city of Basra, there is dust. It gets in your eyes and nose and throat. It swirls in school playgrounds and consumes children kicking a plastic ball. "It carries death," said Dr Jawad Al-Ali, a cancer specialist and member of Britain's Royal College of Physicians. "Our own studies indicate that more than 40 per cent of the population in this area will get cancer: in five years' time to begin with, then long afterwards. Most of my own family now have cancer, and we have no history of the disease. It has spread to the medical staff of this hospital. We don't know the precise source of the contamination, because we are not allowed to get the equipment to conduct a proper scientific survey, or even to test the excess level of radiation in our bodies. We suspect depleted uranium, which was used by the Americans and British in the Gulf War right across the southern battlefields."

Under economic sanctions imposed by the United Nations Security Council almost 10 years ago, Iraq is denied equipment and expertise to clean up its contaminated battle-fields, as Kuwait was cleaned up. At the same time, the Sanctions Committee in New York, dominated by the Americans and British, has blocked or delayed a range of vital equipment, chemotherapy drugs and even pain-killers. "For us doctors," said Dr Al-Ali, "it is like torture. We see children die from the kind of cancers from which, given the right treatment, there is a good recovery rate." Three children died while I was there.

<snip>

In Washington, I interviewed James Rubin, an under secretary of state who speaks for Madeleine Albright. When asked on US television if she thought that the death of half a million Iraqi children was a price worth paying, Albright replied: "This is a very hard choice, but we think the price is worth it." When I questioned Rubin about this, he claimed Albright's words were taken out of context. He then questioned the "methodology" of a report by the UN's World Health Organisation, which had estimated half a million deaths. Advising me against being "too idealistic", he said: "In making policy, one has to choose between two bad choices . . . and unfortunately the effect of sanctions has been more than we would have hoped." He referred me to the "real world" where "real choices have to be made". In mitigation, he said, "Our sense is that prior to sanctions, there was serious poverty and health problems in Iraq." The opposite was true, as Unicef's data on Iraq before 1990, makes clear.

The irony is that the US helped bring Saddam Hussein's Ba'ath Party to power in Iraq, and that the US (and Britain) in the 1980s conspired to break their own laws in order, in the words of a Congressional inquiry, to "secretly court Saddam Hussein with reckless abandon", giving him almost everything he wanted, including the means of making biological weapons. Rubin failed to see the irony in the US supplying Saddam with seed stock for anthrax and botulism, that he could use in weapons, and claimed that the Maryland company responsible was prosecuted. It was not: the company was given Commerce Department approval.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/weekend/story/0,3605,232986,00.html

[RowWellandLive]

115. Do you mourn

for the thousands of Iraqis murdered under Saddam's reign? A family friend of ours father was very prominent in fallujah before that maniac came to power. once upon a time it was a peaceful and prosperous city. Unfortunately for my friend she is Jewish and all her property was seized before she was expelled from Saddam's Iraq. In the meantime her two teen aged daughters were stoned to death. If you doubt this I'm sure she will gladly provide her current email address so you can correspond.

obviously you are against economic sanctions as they affect innocents as much as you are against a war that topples a brutal regime. So what is it that you propose that will protect innocents like my family friend from brutal racist regimes or do you deny they exist?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

138. No matter what happened to people that you knew that lived...

...under Saddam's regime, that DID NOT give the U. S. the right to MANUFACTURE several reasons for invading Iraq and killing tens of thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians. How are ANY of those civilians any different from the individual you described in your post?

Maybe you haven't noticed yet, but here in the States we ARE living under the control of "brutal racist regime", one that seized power in December 2000. Since then, they have detained thousands of Islamic Middle Easterners, deported thousands more, and have killed tens of thousnads in Afghanistan and Iraq.

[scucci]

176. You are hysterical

I do NOT agree with the invasion of Iraq but why can't you see that we are not living under a "brutal racist regime"? Are there still Jim Crowe laws? Are "brown" or "black" people barred from anything? On the contrary! I don't see how letting anyone in the country who asks and giving them benefits is racist. Please explain how you think it is. My spent tax dollars that I worked hard for really want to know! If you can give me any reliable evidence of the US detaining and deporting thousands of Islamic people, I'll eat my stinky slipper. I don't agree with your numbers. People get all crazy over false "facts and figures" they read on the internet.

And yes, thousands have been killed in Iraq. I'm sickened by that but there is nothing I can do about it! If there was I WOULD!!!!

[IndianaGreen]

157. The only supporters of Saddam, outside the Baathists, were...

a succession of American Presidents, Republican and Democratic alike, that feared Soviet influence in the region far more than they cared about the horrors Saddam unleashed on his own people.

So what is it that you propose that will protect innocents like my family friend from brutal racist regimes or do you deny they exist?

Any discussion of "brutal racist regimes" must include Israel's subjugation of the Palestinians and her discrimination against Israeli-Arabs.

The discussion must also include the role the United States continues to play in propping up oppressive regimes, including the "School of the Assassins" that it runs at Fort Benning, Georgia.

[NNN0LHI]

158. Funny how fast people forget the Saddam was our thug for decades IG

Almost like it never happened. Short memories I think?

Don

[DoNotRefill]

111. Huh???

booby traps???? Got a link? It was a busy city street in broad daylight, and they were hit with RPGs. There are four non-tinfoil hat possibilities: Either the Iraqis had excellent intellegence information to be able to intercept a changing path, or they had teams on multiple paths, or there was one team that just got lucky, or the guys had been taking the same path regularly. I'm leaning towards their taking a routine path due to the mission, because it seems to fit all available facts the best.

Your "there were booby traps set up" shows that you simply don't understand the mechanics of what happened, or the things necessary to conduct an effective ambush.

[RowWellandLive]

113. I heard on the radio

that there were land mines planted in the roads in areas where foreigners were known to travel. Maybe that is true, maybe it's not. Even if you are right and they took a routine path, so what? Are you in any way sympathetic that these Americans were murdered, burnt, mutilated, tortured, had their dead bodies danced around with glee, prodded with pokers, and hung from bridges?

Is that an "effective" ambush in your mind? Are you in any way pleased with the result? Where in the hell are you coming from? Is it your belief that these evil mercenaries had it coming?

[DoNotRefill]

118. Ummm...no.

How exactly would landmines select an American target on a road, as opposed to an Iraqi vehicle? Have you seen the pictures? There's no crater, the vehicles are upright, there's no apparent lateral blast marks, et cetera. There's NO evidence that it was caused by either a landmine or a controlled detonation IED, and the published photographs strongly argue AGAINST that possibility.

I'm coming from a perspective of understanding what was done, and how it was accomplished. Also, I'm coming from a perspective of the most likely scenario is one which precludes their being on some kind of covert operation, and instead points to their being on a routine outing to deliver food.

And no, I'm not pleased with the result. I feel that not only was it another tragedy in a long string of tragedies, but the fallout from it will result in a lot more deaths, and other, VERY serious, unintended consequences.

[PaDUer]

121. I didn't hear anything

about "booby traps"..Hope you find a link with that info.
Blackwater Security, based in Moyock, N.C., provides security training and guard services to customers around the world. President Gary Jackson and two other company leaders are former Navy SEAL commandos.

[RowWellandLive]

122. I'll try to find that link I read about booby traps

In the meantime are you somehow content with the brutal mutilations and murders of Americans that were employed by Blackwater Security? Does your post suggest that because they were former Navy Seal Commandos they had this coming? If not then why do you provide this info?

[PaDUer]

123. You said it,

not me. Don't try putting words into my mouth. Apparently YOU must be thinking that.

[RowWellandLive]

124. Putting what words in your mouth?

four Americans were brutally murdered, their bodies burnt, prodded, desecrated, multilated, and put on display. I don't care one whit if they were intentionally targeted because of their security role or if they died from mere circumstance. I mourn for them and their loved ones equally. how they died was brutal and unforgiving,

What is your point? Do you sympathize with their Iraqi killers because they were with an American security firm. Did they deserve this brutal death? Should we not punish their murderers?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

139. How would you characterize the deaths and woundings of tens of...

...thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians? Do you sympathize with their killers because they were ordered to attack a regime you hated? Should we not punish THEIR murders?

What's your point other than exposing your personal hatred of a regime that has already been dismantled and your attempt to justify the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis as if it were a good thing?

[saigon68]

182. You can't argue with this guy

It's a waste of Bandwidth

[PaDUer]

141. We shouldn't have

been there in the first place, don't you agree, especially now with all the info coming out at the hearings? I'm sure most americans would love if you sponsored the biggest "Bring the troops home NOW campaign". As we all can see, this is worse than Nam. How many more of our children won't ever be coming home?

I'm not going to enter a pissing contest with you. DU gets a lot of visitors who don't have a date on Friday nite or when something awful happens. Do you believe in "an eye for an eye" like the freeps? Do you think the freeps will be lined up at the recruiting stations today since they're so upset and want to kick ass and whatever else? If you go, would you take your camera and take a pix and post it here?

Here's a quick look at the threads you posted on recently that shows some members explaining things to you since you apparently didn't understand or had "opposite" thoughts yesterday, and the one about Cynthia McKinney from last week. But, that's alright, you're fairly new at DU, and there's many intelligent members who will help you out since so many people are uninformed. The truth's been finally coming out drip by drip about how and why the US is in this quagmire. --

8 topics match your criteria
Latest Breaking News forum--
Slain Contractors Were in Iraq Working Security Detail (Elite Commandos)
Topic started by kskiska on Apr-01-04 10:48 PM (130 replies)
Last modified by skooooo on Apr-03-04 08:32 AM

Iraq:--Radical Shiite cleric declares solidarity with Hamas
Topic started by Aidoneus on Apr-02-04 06:19 PM (33 replies)
Last modified by Aidoneus on Apr-03-04 08:16 AM

Wolfowitz briefs lawmakers on possible US responses to Fallujah killings
Topic started by Barrett808 on Apr-02-04 04:10 PM (55 replies)
Last modified by R Hickey on Apr-03-04 05:11 AM

General Discussion forum--
barbara bush dirt?
Topic started by carpediem on Apr-02-04 11:43 PM (53 replies)
Last modified by leetrisck on Apr-03-04 06:41 AM

Aftermath of the Fallujah massacre - Future of the US worries me
Topic started by fujiyama on Apr-03-04 02:31 AM (24 replies)
Last modified by BullGooseLoony on Apr-03-04 06:21 AM

Kerry's outsourcing plans are as devious as chimpy's; is this true???????
Topic started by tedthebear on Apr-02-04 10:30 PM (93 replies)
Last modified by Career Prole on Apr-03-04 04:52 AM

If one of the 4 contractors mutilated in Fallujah was a woman...
Topic started by DoNotRefill on Apr-03-04 01:46 AM (22 replies)
Last modified by adjwilli on Apr-03-04 03:26 AM

General Discussion: Campaign 2004 forum--
Please donate to send Cynthia McKinney back to Congress!
Topic started by mouse7 on Mar-28-04 04:08 PM (101 replies)
Last modified by Classical_Liberal on Mar-30-04 01:06 AM

[leftchick]

142. they knew what they were getting into...

that is why they were paid the big bucks with my taxes! It just did not turn out the way they had hoped. "Should we punish their murderers?" No, we should take the BIG Fucking clue they sent the US on Thursday and Get The FUCK out of Iraq! Because once the Shiites join the Sunnis at the barbecue, you ain't seen nothing yet!

[Logansquare]

147. Here's how it works: the Pentagon outsources auxilary services

like providing food to troops. KBR (Halliburton) gets the enormously overpriced no-bid contract. KBR hires Blackwater to provide security for their staff and operations. Blackwater pays $500/day and up to mercenary contractors to provide security, so just guess at what their markup is to KBR. Four American men were killed and mutilated in order to enrich Dick Cheney and his friends. We only got to see the American corpses fed into the KBR grinder--who knows how many Iraquis died.

[JPZenger]

149. No Matter What, They Were Working to Protect Innocents

If the official story is correct, these men were protecting food shipments to civilians. The city of Faluga includes over 250,000 people. Food agencies will not deliver food unless they be assured of basic security for their own personnel. These were very brave, highly trained, highly skilled men who were sucker-punched by two rocket propelled grenades. They didn't have a chance.

If the alternative theory is correct, the men were working for the U.S. military. If so, they were hunting down the insurgents who have been killed thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians - in addition to Americans. (Note - I personally don't believe that story.) Remember many of the Iraqis who have been killed by bombings were simply attending religious services in Mosques.

Either way, I am disturbed by the tone of many of the posts above. The war was unjustified, but now that we're in there, we owe it to the Iraqis to see it through.

If we walk out of Iraq now, it will become just like Afghanistan in the 1990s - when the incredibly repressive and terrorist-supporting Taliban took over.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

151. Key phrase: "If the official story is correct"...

...What's the track record so far on "official stories"?

And who is the "we" you talk about in terms of owing it to the "Iraqis to see it through"? And to whom are you referring when you say "Iraqis"...the folks the NeoCons have installed as a puppet government, or somebody else?

And as far as Afghanistan is concerned, we've thrown that country back twenty to twenty-five years in time to when the Soviets were attempting to subdue that country.

[daleo]

169. I heard that the official story was that they were deliver food to marines

Whatever they were doing, it was not a humanitarian mission to the civilians of Fallujah.

[texasdem99]

179. Agreed

Seems as though those of us that object to the rejoicing are a minority here.

Which is truly sad. I never thought I'd see the day when fellow Dems are dancing on the graves of anyone, let alone fellow US Citizens, be they guards or mercenaries.

All I can think of is one of the relatives or friends of these men wandering around the Net, stumbling on to DU, and reading this thread.

I feel sicker after seeing how some of the people really think on this forum. I just don't get the hatred that exists in some people.

[scucci]

173. I love how everyone here knows why those 4 humans were there

and know nothing, really about their lives.

I'm coming in late and there will be very few who read this post. For those of you who say they deserved it...I feel very sorry for you. You've now let your hatred of the Bush administration kill your own humanity, your soul. No one deserves to die like that, be they white American males, black Sudanese males or anyone! Some of you have so much hatred going on inside that it is extremely disturbing. You seem as if you're right on the edge of acting in the same barbaric ways on your fellow citizens. You sound as vicious as those people you purport to abhor.
I had to wonder if I was on Free Republic while reading this thread. Some of you really need to get back to why you are a Democrat. Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought it was about helping people, not enjoying the misery of others.

[saigon68]

180. Hey Scucci here is what the Humanitarians at freep republic have to say

Unbelievable folks

To: angkor
I know my heart is hard, but this is a war, not a policing mission. I want them dead. Every face on those videos. Men, women, children, babies, all of them. The children are simply future terrorists. In my eyes it's no more cruel than culling a herd of diseased chickens or cattle to prevent the spread of a deadly disease. Hopefully the Lord would have mercy on the souls of the little ones. To hell with the others.
When I saw this site, I changed:
Angry?


7 posted on 04/03/2004 4:13:05 AM PST by Gerasimov (I am tag line, hear me roar.)
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To: netmilsmom
But what does he mean by leaflet?
Drop a million messages saying "in 48 hours this city will be obliterated. You have that long to exit or die."


8 posted on 04/03/2004 4:13:55 AM PST by Aeronaut (How many liberals does it take to change a light bulb? None - they like being in the dark.)
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To: mewzilla
>>A piece of paper with a happy face and the word Incoming printed in Arabic?<<

LOL!



9 posted on 04/03/2004 4:19:36 AM PST by netmilsmom (Busybody of Free Republic)
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To: netmilsmom
"I heard Savage talking about this and voted.
But what does he mean by leaflet?"

He said we should drop leaflets into Fallujah that warn everyone that we will start bombing it in 3 days.

http://www.homestead.com/prosites-prs/index.html

10 posted on 04/03/2004 4:21:23 AM PST by ThermoNuclearWarrior (Mow Fallujah Down!!!)
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To: Aeronaut
But won't that just get the bad guys to scatter across Iraq instead of all in one spot? I'm not sure this would be in our best interest.

Wouldn't it be better to starve them out? Fence the area, and have only foot traffic out then pick them off one by one? Let's face it, there were kids in on this. Maybe we need to keep them in and find the cruds instead of leveling the city.

Or maybe I'm wrong.

11 posted on 04/03/2004 4:23:28 AM PST by netmilsmom (Busybody of Free Republic)
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To: All
Why not turn the policing action for this area over to the Kurds?

12 posted on 04/03/2004 4:28:07 AM PST by Loyal Buckeye ((Kerry is a flake))
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To: netmilsmom
But won't that just get the bad guys to scatter across Iraq instead of all in one spot?
I wasn't advocating it, just explaining it.

I think they should declare martial law, seal off the whole area, go house-to-house and confiscate all weapons from everyone, and any bomb-making supplies. All known dead-enders would be detained or shot trying to escape. Anyone looks cross-eyed at a soldier or marine gets shot.

But that's just me.


13 posted on 04/03/2004 4:39:08 AM PST by Aeronaut (How many liberals does it take to change a light bulb? None - they like being in the dark.)
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To: netmilsmom
I think history has shown that extremely aggressive action works better in situations like Iraq, than does the way we are fighting now. If we would fight without worrying how we look, we wouldn't be losing as many troops. The number of Iraqi civilian deaths would rise, while the number of American deaths would lower. That's the choice we need to make. Are the lives of American troops worth more to you than the lives of Iraqi civilians? They are to me. I would rather there be more Iraqi civilians dead because it would save Americans. We can't have it both ways. War is hell. We are trying to have it both ways right now and it's not working.

http://www.homestead.com/prosites-prs/index.html

http://www.donet.com/~ewto/

14 posted on 04/03/2004 4:43:06 AM PST by ThermoNuclearWarrior (Mow Fallujah Down!!!)
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MY COMMENT--- REINHARD HEYDRICH WOULD HAVE BEEN PROUD OF THESE PEOPLE, -----actually so is the Devil.

To the poster Scucci, on this Palm Sunday, your mission is to also bring Christ's true message to freep republic

Here is the URL http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1110581/posts

NOW GO GET EM.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

194. It is, but don't tell me that Mercs don't do bad things, cause

I have seen them do it.
Now I am not saying these guys did it, only that the possibility is certainly there, and it appears to me they were not chosen at random, since other westerners were not attacked the same day less than 1km away.
And what do you know about their lives? Ever been to war? Ever been out drinking with SF types? Ever seen attrocities committed? Ever seen anyone take out anger against a transgressor?

I am a Democrat and, furthermore a Christian. I believe in both, that does not mean the mob in Faluja does, nor the "contractors" did.

My main point was disgust at the assumed innocence of these guys in light of what they do for a living and how they were assualted.

[Cat Atomic]

174. Wait a minute.

If these guys were protecting a convoy of food supplies, what happened to the convoy? I've heard nothing about that. Sounds like they were alone at the time of the attack.

I'm not sure if I believe the government's claims on the role of US mercenaries in the Sunni Triangle.

[Eye and Monkey]

175. Shame on me. I didn't fully read the original article posted

"A Blackwater spokesman said the men were guarding a convoy on its way to deliver food to troops under a subcontract to a company named Regency Hotel and Hospitality."

[scucci]

177. What I read was that one food truck got away

even though they were being shot at as well.

[Eye and Monkey]

178. Do you have a link for that?

The link for the UN's IRIN for Iraq is down.

American officials said the civilians were traveling in two sport utility vehicles although some witnesses in Falluja said there were four. ``Two got away; two got trapped,'' said Muhammad Furhan, a taxi driver.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/31/international/worldspecial/31CND-IRAQ.html

[pooltablerepairman]

185. Interesting...

This thread has been an interesting read. What struck me more than anything is the lack of knowledge displayed here regarding the Special Operations community and the use of contractors (particularly former operators) in "hot zones".

I have done this work. Contrary to what many of you would seem to think, I didn't do it because I had no other marketable skills. I didn't do it because I wanted to go to foreign lands and operate without the constraints of the UCMJ or ROE (Incidentally ROE are always VERY clearly defined and probably a lot more restrictive than you think).

I did it for a couple of reasons. Money was certainly one of them. I made enough in two years to return to CONUS and start a business of my own. It still meant living on sandwiches and working 100 hours a week for the first couple of years, but I was able to take that grubstake and create a business that is stable, makes a difference in the community in which I live, and keeps about 30 people gainfully employed.

One of the other reasons is that it enabled me to make a difference in a way the military never would have. The Army taught me to break things. The people I was under contract to protect were working to build things... Among other things, they were trying teach the locals to feed, care and educate themselves without having to crawl for crumbs left behind by the local "warlords". Many of the people I was hired to protect didn't even like the fact that I was there, until they ran into trouble. They were mostly young, idealistic, intelligent folks who seemed to think that everyone in the world thought, reacted, and treated others as they did. Most of them received an even greater education than they gave. I think in the long term, everyone came out ahead.

The guys with the guns and the shades and the jeans who are doing that job today are there for a multitude of reasons, but I can guarantee you one thing that they all have in common... a desire to do a job and to do it right.

The government today contracts out a great many functions that a couple of decades ago would have been done by government employees. Everything from getting the electricity on again to providing clean water to locating teachers and getting the schools open is being done by civilians. Those civilians need to be protected. The military does not have the resources to do it. The skills required are for the most part, not those taught to the conventional soldier. They are rather specialized and they require "specialists" to perform them. That is why in troubled times, men like that are in high demand. Contrary to what somebody here said, it takes a little more than a felony records check and a DD214 to get in the game. The last time I went out I sat on my fourth point of contact for 5 months waiting for the appropriate clearances from DoD and State before I was allowed to go incountry. Guys with disciplinary problems, records that reflect minimal duty performance, etcetera never make it in the door.

What happened to the guys from Blackwater was tragic. Granted, they knew the risks. They took the money (and their chances), but for people to suggest they deserved what they got or to suggest they were there to commit illegal acts under government sanction, is wrong. There are always cowboys who try to worm their way into outfits like that, but they don't get far.

I can't speak for the men who died. I wouldn't presume to do so. I CAN speak with the voice of experience in similar circumstances. The money was most certainly a factor... but I would bet my life (again) that it was FAR from the most important factor. Guys like that had to be at least "3 time volunteers" to even develop the skills necessary to make them needed in the region.I am sure some of you here know what that means.

It is NEVER just the money.

[eridani]

188. Making more in a month than regular soldiers do in a year?

And not even having to buy their own body armor?

[daleo]

189. I am afraid that a vague feel-good story with no details

Will not sway a lot of attitudes here, or in fact, in many places. You may want to repost with more back story somewhere, perhaps the general forum, once you have been around long enough to have posting privileges. Just my own personal opinion, nothing to do with moderators.

[pooltablerepairman]

190. Sway Attitudes?

I doubt that much of anything will sway some of the rabid, hateful attitudes displayed on this thread. That wasn't my attempt.

I posted that response, not to change anybody's mind, but to help make sure that whatever opinion people might hold about the contractors working in Iraq (and elsewhere), is based on fact and not a result of some preconceived and erroneous notion of how that system works and the kind of men who seek and accept these assignments.

Remarks like "not handsome anymore" displayed over a burnt corpse, alongside some of the other invective I saw that actually prompted me to register and submit a post, made me think that the majority of people who spew such venom do so because they are operating under a misconception and actually have little idea of who those men were or what they were doing. Surely no one with a modicum of decency could feel that way toward a group of men who are trying to make a difference in the world the best way they know how?

I can't account for the level of hatred some posters displayed in this thread. Those men who died developed the skills they had, the ones that drew to Iraq in the first place, in the armed services of this nation. Those men who dies were among the best and the brightest this country will ever produce. They had to be in order to get where they were.

Those who choose to insult them and their service to this nation, and celebrate their deaths will not have their minds changed by anything said here, but you can bet they are the same ones who would scream loudest for help, should they ever be faced with danger.

My post was for those who possess enough integrity and intellectual honesty to wonder WHO would take a job like that... to wonder WHY someone would take a job like that... For those people I would answer whatever questions I can. For the rest, well... their hatred puts them beyond salvage. I know I can't change that.

[daleo]

192. I am just saying this thread is pretty worn out

This one has gone quite a few days, and is pretty long. I am sure there will be an opportunity to present your case in a fresher thread soon enough, either here or in the general forum.