New Jersey governor kills rail tunnel project

[DainBramaged]

Source: REUTERS

New Jersey Governor Chris Christie pulled funding for a $8.7 billion rail tunnel between New Jersey and Manhattan on Wednesday, killing what would have been the largest U.S. public works project.

Christie, a Republican, originally withdrew funding for the tunnel on October 7, saying his state lacked the funds to cover expected cost overruns, but he had been reconsidering the decision at the request of U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood.



Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE69P57120101027

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Fucking ASSHOLE

[lisa58]

1. That's my gov - what a jerk

[dgibby]

2. Something tells me Big Eddie isn't going to be amused by this.

Today would probably be a good day to tune in to the Ed Show if you like fireworks!

[Historic NY]

Lets finish closing NY's borders to Jersey.....

:sarcasm:

[Historic NY]

3. Lets finish closing NY's borders to Jersey.....

:sarcasm:

[SOS]

4. USA is # One!

The tunnel in use today between Manhattan and Hoboken NJ:



The tunnel between Paris and London:

[onehandle]

7. Yep. We are heading towards a Soviet Union reality.

An outdated, broken infrastructure choking us to a standstill.

[Roland99]

5. I fear Rick Scott would do the same in FL to the high-speed rail if he wins the Governor's race.

[MrsCorleone]

27. Yep. Meg Whitman came out strongly against the high speed project in CA.

She basically parroted the Chamber of Commerce's position against the very project that will provide so many jobs. Gotta protect the oil industry, I guess.

[timtom]

38. No doubt about it!

I'm voting straight Dem ticket (as I always have) and Devil take the hindmost!

[ThoughtCriminal]

6. Top Priority: Create NO jobs

A deteriorating infrastructure is just a bonus for the GOP.

[valerief]

8. That's their strategy. To hell with Americans. nt

[Beacool]

9. Great, just freaking great!!!

Oh, and the guy is my governor. Yippee!!!

x(

[robcon]

10. Can anyone say: "Boondoggle!"

Good riddance to a stupid project.

[sweetapogee]

12. I agree

The North Hudson Tunnel and the Hudson Tubes are busy, this is a fact. But 8 Billion+ dollars is a little hard to take. And while it might be nice to bragg about how a new tunnel would look shiny like the the chunnel, you can't tell when your in the tunnel because you just don't see anything through the windows.

I think if industry in NYC wants to improve the commute for their workers living now in NJ, they should build a tunnel or have their employees move the NY instead of making NJ taxpayers pay for a tunnel most of them will not use.

[nyc 4 Biden]

14. Clueless much?

Decreasing travel times into NYC would benefit commuter communities in NJ and PA most.

[sweetapogee]

18. perhaps

but 8.7 Billion Dollars will build a lot of low income housing, feed a lot of people, educate a lot of kids and buy a lot of health care. Or it could make a 1.6 mile train ride more convenient for wealthy metro area execs. who work in Manhattan.

[starroute]

20. Only it's not going to get spent on any of those things

Christie is looking for ways to cut spending and taxes, like any Republican. He has no interest at all in spending that money to help people.

[sweetapogee]

21. Any easy way

to kill the project would be for it to be placed on a ballot and put to the voters pointing out the tax burden. That would put the mater to bed I'm certain. Or, if you disagree, in 3 years, there will be another election for NJ Gov., the dems could make it an election issue. I could realistically see where even a lot of dems in NJ would oppose this and I'm having a hard time envisioning the tax-payers getting excited about this project, but I could be wrong.

[karynnj]

25. Christie's own county's paper had many angry people

not happy with this decision. Many Republican. There is not enough capacity between NY and NJ - and we all know it. By the way, Republicans I know want the tunnel - and yes, people in my county pay taxes.

[sweetapogee]

22. a billion dollars

looks like this: $1,000,000,000.00

8.7 Billion looks like this: $8,700,000,000.00

Actual cost of the tunnel will be + 10 Billion

10 Billion looks like this: $10,000,000,000.00

The total population of NJ is 8.8 million

Divide 8.8 million (people) by 8.7 Billion (dollars)

Question: how bad do we need 1 more train track into Manhattan?

Fact: I moved out of NJ for PA because I couldn't take the property/school taxes any more and the state has about 20 billion in debt. But I still work in NJ, Do I think anyone living in Monmouth County cares to replace the Rt. 22 Bridge over the Delaware (Phillipsburg/Easton)? That crossing is old and over burdened also.

[SOS]

26. 8 billion dollars = 4 weeks in Iraq

Since the attack on Iraq in March 2003, the Federal government (with no taxes from the state of NJ)
could have built 91 tunnels.

Instead we have the decrepit Hudson tubes and no jobs.

[Scruffy1]

48. or about 4 days at the pentagon

[No Elephants]

36. Why should people in NJ pay to help you take their job and then pay taxes and spend $ in PA?

[MadMaddie]

29. Do you really think that this Republican Governer would

spend money on low income housing? Bets are good that the citizens won't see any of that money.

[Demoiselle]

23. They're not building a replacement tunnel....this is an ADDITIONAL tunnel.

To ease the congestion between NY and NJ. A lot of ordinary working people travel to and from those states, every day.

[No Elephants]

34. Even better: privatize all tunnels.and bridges that link the two states.

:sarcasm:

[happyslug]

39. The tunnel is aimed at FREIGHT more then passengers

The present tunnels can NOT carry double stack trailers, which is becoming the "Norm" when it comes to fright traffic (It is so much of a norm, that Pennsylvania paid in the mid 1990s, for the enlargement of the Allegheny Tunnel and the New Portage Tunnels in Gallizin PA the old Pennsylvania main line so that Norfolk and Southern could ship double stack trailers east and west on the old main line (Which is still the busiest line in the US).

The biggest hurtle to using double stacks in the east Coast are the tunnels from New Jersey to New York City. Furthermore, when the Pennsylvania Railroad built those tunnels in 1904, the PRR was still planning of shipping much of its cargo by barge to to shipped out of New York Harbor. While that is still an option, almost all ocean traffic is 8x8x40 Inter-modal container. You have only two tracks between New Jersey and New York AND the tunnel was built for low speed small (by today standards) Trains. These tunnels and the tracks that go through them can NOT carry the number of fright trains hauling Inter-modal containers.

For more on Inter-modal container see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermodal_container

For more on the Gallitzin Tunnels in Pennsylvania:
http://www.gallitzin.info/tunnels.php

My point is the push for these new tunnels is NOT for passenger service, that would be an additional plus, the push is to carry the increased FREIGHT Service. Furthermore one of the way the Railroads are getting around the restriction do to the limitations of the existing tunnels is to take the inter-modal containers off the trains in New Jersey and ship them across New York by Truck. It would be cheaper and faster to do it by rail BUT THEY CAN NOT RAIL TRAFFIC EXCEEDS THE CAPACITY OF THE EXISTING TUNNELS.

[DainBramaged]

15. Good riddance to a stupid post

[seafoamrider]

19. Chrisite is right on this one.

Boondoggle is exactly right and you can't squeeze another dime from NJ taxpayers. Property taxes are already through the roof.

[Ginto]

11. 8.7 Billion seems like too much for this.

If this is what it costs for a single tunnel, then I fear that there is no hope for us.

[Blue_Tires]

13. well to be fair, they do have to dig over, under, and around a lot of stuff

?x=400&y=313&q=85&sig=TFBeWMIZrq1kejcQwALnDg--

If the Governor is that worried about cost overruns and not the actual price, then why not penalize the contractors by withholding payment?

[Ginto]

16. Still seems like a lot.

I do think that these type of projects should be capped in pmts or charged to the federal government. These type of projects help all people and we should all contribute.

[DainBramaged]

17. One term stupid fucking asshole Repuke

and that's that.

[No Elephants]

35. Morning Schmoe has been hyping Christie for POTUS. (Before

that, he'd been hyping Barbour.)

[karynnj]

24. I hope every NJ resident who hears the wait is over 30 minutes (or worse)

on the two tunnels and the GW bridge will think about the fact that it will get worse and our governor doesn't think it important to build another route.

What is surprising is that some articles spoke of alternative Lahood offered that would have not had NJ responsible for the overruns. Christie is an idiot - he could have accepted that and emerged a hero - and claim he saved NJ money.

[ProSense]

28. That doesn't stop the Boston Globe columnist Joan Vennochi from hyping this moron

A star on the GOP stage

[No Elephants]

37. Please see Reply #35. (Desperation.)

[Arrowhead2k1]

30. Meanwhile, China puts out the fastest new bullet train on Earth.

This country is pathetic for middle-class people who want to commute.

[madmax]

31. I'm so glad I left NJ.

3 years ago. My son and his family just moved here to NC last month. They love it.

[Ginto]

33. I've lived in NC. Not exactly infrastructure leaders.

Unless you count I-40.

[happyslug]

40. Posted wrong place

Mo Text (N/T)

[CanonRay]

32. Another step on the march to 3rd world status

and we're starting to march faster.

[happyslug]

41. Great, the single greatest impediment in the country in regards to freight transportation

Yes, I see most people here are concern about passenger service, but passenger service is NOT the reason this tunnel needs to be built. It needs to be built for FREIGHT Service. Railroads live and die (in the US at least) on Freight. That was true in the 1800s and it is true today. Passenger service was an additional source of income not why you built a railroad.

The same with this tunnel, you can NOT do double stack inter-modal Container shipments through the existing tunnels. Even Pennsylvania saw this in the 1990 when it paid, then Conrail, now Norfolk and Southern, to enlarge both the New Portage Tunnel (Built in 1854) and the Allegheny Tunnel (Built in 1904) so both tunnels could carry double tracks of double stack trailers with inter-modal containers (The Third tunnel in Gallitzin Pennsylvania, the Gallitzin tunnel, built in 1852 was abandoned since it was the oldest of the three tunnels).

Pennsylvania paid for the above so that Conrail (Not Norfolk and Southern) could ship double stack containers through Allegheny Mountain, thus permitting such double stacking through Pennsylvania. Those tunnels were the biggest obstacles to double stack trailers, and now that honor belongs to the Tunnels between New Jersey and New York City.

Lets be honest, the plan was simple, built a tunnel (or tunnels) for two sets of tracks, both capable of carrying double stack trailers. Once completed, to take the existing two tunnels out of commission and expand them so they can also carry double stack trailers. Thus you would have four sets of tracks ALL capable of taking double track trailers. Take about ten years to complete, but when finished solve a lot of freight problems. Not only would you see twice the number of tracks (and thus twice the number of trains), you could double stack and thus cut the trains length in half, permitting even more trains through those tunnels.

People tend to forget if one of those tunnels is closed for any reason, the trains have to unload they cargo in New York City or somewhere close by, ship the container by TRUCK through New York City, then re-load them in New Jersey (And do the reverse for South-North Traffic). Rail by pass of New York City is Limited, can be done, but limited. Easier to ship the containers (and that is how most cargo is shipped today) by truck or barge (and barges are limited in number and generally being used for something else).

Thus the concern with these tunnels. Better communication and controls after WWII (And decrease in rail use during the same time period) permitted the railroads to survive with the tunnels as they have been since WWII, but since at least the 1980s these tunnels have become a bottleneck in the transportation system. We have to address that problem and the method everyone agreed on was to build two new tunnels. Now New Jersey is backing out for budgetary reasons (i.e. they want someone else to pay for it). An agreement was made and the Federal Government should say that New Jersey and everyone else who signed onto the agreement can not now back out. Lets solve this problem before it gets worse.

[boppers]

42. For 8 billion, couldn't they build more ports?

Why would somebody even bother shipping that amount of freight to/through Manhattan, when they could land it at a port that isn't, oh, a freaking island?

[happyslug]

43. Once something hits a port. it has to be shipped inland

New York City is the largest Container port on the East Coast. the 22nd largest in the world:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_of_New_York_and_New_Jersey
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_world%27s_busiest_container_ports

Port Newark is the largest Container shipping point within the New York Region (thus shipments south is important AND shipments back north via the Old New York Central Line):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Newark-Elizabeth_Marine_Terminal

Planning on the movement of Freight across New York Harbor (Remember the overall plan includes improving connections with Long Island AND Upper New York State and New England:
http://www.panynj.gov/about/cross-harbor.html

Port Newark/New York is the 3rd largest by tonnage (Behind South Louisiana and Houston):

http://www.panynj.gov/about/cross-harbor.html

http://www.ndc.iwr.usace.army.mil//wcsc/portton03.htm

If you look at the above two reports (one from 2003, the other 2005) Pittsburgh is a bigger port then Philadelphia. That shows how dominate the New York/Newark port is (it is a clear second to Louisiana/Texas area in tonnage, i.e. Bulk Cargo, but is clearly ahead of the West Coast in the terms of tonnage).

Right now those are your main port areas in the US, Louisiana/Texas is the clear dominate area (oil, imports and exports, Wheat and other agricultural imports and exports).

Now, Container shipments, Southern California (Los Angles/Long Beach) beats out Louisiana/Texas and New York City/Newark (Louisiana/Texas Does not even make the list as the top 20 ports world wide by container, it just beats everyone in tonnage).

http://www.infrastructurist.com/2009/08/11/ranking-the-worlds-largest-ports-why-so-low-usa/
http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?1,1991953

Thus you see the problem with freight and New York City. While Los Angles/Long Beach is the largest Container port, New York/Newark is number two (Three if you count Los Angles and Long Beach as one and two).

One the other hand, if you go by tonnage, Los Angles/Long Beach is NOT even in the running, it is Louisiana/Texas with New York City/Newark number two. Thus New York/Newark is not the top port of the United States, it still remains an important port and a more balance port then Los Angles/Long Beach or Louisiana/Texas. It is HIGH on both Containers AND tonnage. Thus the importance of this tunnel, it is to address the expect growth in Container, Automobiles and bulk cargoes that New York City/Newark can expect in the next 20 years.

Here is a 1999 ranking, but this ranking includes not only the main ports but closely related ports (this pushes Philadelphia over Pittsburgh, for you include all the ports in South Jersey, Eastern Pa and Delaware when it comes to Philadelphia, Pittsburgh has no subsidy ports). LA/Long Beach drops to number Seven on the list, well behind, #1 South Louisiana/New Orleans, #2 Houston Texas, #3Port Charles Louisiana, #4 NYC/NJ, #5 Philadelphia and #6 Corpus Christi, Texas, but beating out #8 Valdez Alaska and #9 Chicago (again this is tonnage, not containers, thus Valdez Alaska is almost all oil).

http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/RSD/coastal/projects/coastal/ports_list.html

[boppers]

44. So, shut down the island ports.

Expand the non-island ports.

That really isn't that complex of an idea.

If your destination is *not* an island, do not ship to an island, and waste huge amounts of money connecting islands.

[davepc]

47. Port Newark/Elizabeth (NJ) is the biggest port in the North East.

Very little goes into Manhattan proper anymore.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Newark-Elizabeth_Marine_Terminal

The only problem is that port is losing business because the 80 year old Bayonne Bridge is too low for modern container ships to pass underneath. The bridge needs to be raised or replaced with a tunnel, but nobody wants to spend the billions it would take to do that.

New Jersey's loss will be Charlotte and Bostons gain.

[tilsammans]

45. That's my gov!

Fucking ASSHOLE, indeed! Makes me wanna:

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:puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:

[davepc]

46. It never ceases to amaze me the number of people I run into who hate the man

yet voted for him.

I always tell them the same thing; "You pull the level for a Republican, you get a Republican."

Corzine was an ineffectual dope who's highlight of governance was getting into a car accident, but at least he didn't get in the way of progress.