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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-02-04 08:26 AM
Original message
Parliamentary honour for Zimbabwe reporter



By Jon Smith, PA News

A Zimbabwean journalist was tonight named as the first winner of the Speaker Abbot award honouring reporters who seek to perpetuate and promote parliamentary democracy. Dumisani Muleya, 28, chief reporter of the Zimbabwe Independent, who has been imprisoned and threatened with his life by Robert Mugabe’s regime will receive his award later this month at Westminster from Commons Speaker Michael Martin. The award was inaugurated to mark the bicentenary last year of the House of Commons Press Gallery. It is named after the Speaker who first allowed reporters access to Commons proceedings, and is made to the journalist who is considered to have made “the greatest contribution internationally to the protection, promotion and perpetuation of parliamentary democracy”. A citation to Mr Muleya from his proposers, SW Radio Africa – an independent station run by a Zimbabwean and based in London – said: “Due to repressive media laws, Mr Muleya’s job is made very difficult. However, he continues to report human rights abuses and highlight the problems that Zimbabweans face, despite threats from the regime.”

http://www.zwnews.com/issuefull.cfm?ArticleID=8987
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-02-04 08:41 AM
Response to Original message
1. If anyone's interested, you can actually hear this man speak:
Edited on Fri Apr-02-04 08:56 AM by AP
http://www.theworld.org/content/030911.wma

Zimbabwe interview (4:15)
A plane has been impounded in Zimbabwe.  Authorities say the plane was carrying "military material."   Theories as to what was going on are flying.. some say the men in the plane were plotting to assassinate the president.  Others say they were merely security guards going to work at the mines.   Host Lisa Mullins speaks with Dumisani Muleya, a reporter for The Zimbabwe Independent newspaper in Harare to find out more.

It's from this site: http://www.theworld.org/latesteditions/20040309.shtml


Here's an explanation of the government's most recent problem with him:

http://www.cpj.org/cases03/africa_cases03/zim.html

(They say he fabricated a story. He was brought in for questioning, released on bail of $25, and was supposed to have a trial on Jan 29th. Since he's been reporting since then, it looks like the trial hasn't stopped him from doing his job.)


And here's a more elaborate statement of what the government doesn't like about him:

"The newspaper ... is forever flippant insulting in all its coverage of Africans except sell outs and uncle Toms. Even their senior reporters like Dumisani Muleya write stories in which nouns are always personalised and in which all verbs are replaced by insulting adjectives," said Moyo.

"At the moment there is no difference talking to Learnmore Jongwe of the opposition Movement for Democratic Change spokesman and Dumisani Muleya. They have the same interests and the same approach and that is dangerous for journalism," said Moyo.

"No one should expect us to answer questions from Leramore Jongwe and by the same token answer questions from Dumisani Muleya and the rest of the bandwagon until they become professional and ethical in their conduct as journalists," said Moyo.

http://www.misa.org/oldsite/alerts/20010808.zimbabwe.0.html
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-02-04 08:59 AM
Response to Original message
2. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-02-04 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Huh?
I'm relying on others to get the ball rolling? That's a bad thing? Search the archives if you want to see what issues interest me so much that I'm willing to start posts about them and then search for my replies to posts to see where I think either that DUers badly need another perspective or that I'd like to throw in a "here, here."

I have to admit I'm totally baffled by the logic of your post. I guess it appears that there's a theme that you're interested in pursuing, and I know you don't want anyone to think you have an editorial agenda, and I know you prefer to present the impression that you're just posting things as you discover them. Whatever. I don't care.

The fact that I'm almost always posting a response that's critical of, or tries to present the other side to what you're citing could possibly suggest some difference between our personal opinions of these issues. But why do you so desperately want to read into this a personal conflict when your entire premise is that these stories you post don't reflect anything personal about yourself? Why don't you just accept that I'm responding to the article itself?

I think it's very revealing that you post a story in LBN with no commentary, I respond ENTIRELY to the article, and say nothing about you personally, and then you respond with somethign that's little more than a personal attack on my posting activity here at DU. Pot meet kettle, eh?
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-02-04 09:07 AM
Response to Original message
3. Parliamentary Honour for Zimbabwe Reporter
“However, he continues to report human rights abuses and highlight the problems that Zimbabweans face, despite threats from the regime.”

His citation said: “On a weekly basis he deals with general issues of repression, as well as almost daily human rights violations.

“Specifically, he wrote about the plight of farm workers in 2001 and as a result was arrested and charged. The case is still pending.

“Last month, he was arrested and charged, together with Iden Wetherell (editor), Vincent Kahiya (news editor) and reporter Itai Dzamara for writing about Mugabe’s commandeering of an Air Zimbabwe plane to holiday in the Far East.”

http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=2728856
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-02-04 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. Just for a little perspective:
In 2001, the corporate farmers tried to pretend that it was better for the workers to live with a colonial system that guaranteed jobs, than it was to end the colonial relationship, and actually let Zimbabweans have control of their country.

It was just political spin, and it wasn't very different from the logic that justified colonialism in the first place. If that's the story they use of evidence that he cared about "human rights," you have to wonder WHOSE human rights he cared about -- the human rights of corporate farmers to have cheap land and cheap labor for as long as possible?

I don't know anything about this reporter other than what I linked above, but if the SCOTSMAN -- a British paper -- wants to suggest this guy writes about human rights, they could have picked something more convincing than an article which was probably mostly propaganda designed to promote the interests of European corporations.

As an aside, I also note that that sentence you quote, which descibes the Zimbabwean government as a "regime" also sort of does what Moyo said this reporter does -- "personalizes nouns and terns verbs into adjectives." That's just an aside.

Also, it sounds ominous that this guy gets arrested. However, and this is just a counterpoint -- I don't know what his day to day professional life is like -- he certainly is still reporting, and a $25 bail doesn't sound like this charge was someething that was going to stop him from doing his job, and I also note his trial was on Jan 29 and he's still reporting.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-02-04 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #6
17. Native American Sacred Traditions and Western Culture


(this icon and many others are available from Bridge Building Images)

Westerners confronting the limitations of our own dualistic culture regarding gender, often rush to appropriate Native "two-spirit" traditions ("berdache", etc) as examples of the acceptance and affirmation we long for in our own culture. Yet, in our excitement and ignorance, we often trample on the very same sacred traditions we are trying to honor.

While usually unintentional, this trend is a modern form of racist imperialism.

Explore with joy -- but if you honor and value the traditions, then please take the time to engage and learn with respect...

Listening to Native Americans: Making Peace With the Past for the Future by John Barry Ryan
An article by a professor of religious studies discussing the need to listen carefully...

Wanting To Be Indian: When Spiritual Teaching Turns Into Cultural Theft by Myke Johnson
An article exploring the ethical questions raised by White peoples' exploration of the religious ceremonies and beliefs of American Indians

Free to be Responsible by Russell Means
In my culture we have people who dress half-man, half-woman. Winkte, we call them in our language, but gay people are dressing up as women in our dances, and that's not the way. ...If you are Winkte, that is an honorable term, and you are a special human being. And among my nation and all Plains people, we consider you a teacher of our children, and are proud of what and who you are. If you're going to sing my songs, and do my dances, then ask us. Quit butchering my songs, my dances, and the things that I am proud to wear. It means nothing now.

http://www.angelfire.com/on/otherwise/native.html
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-02-04 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. The logical next step: Venezuela Denounced at OAS
US Intervention Aimed at Ousting Chavez

The Government of Venezuela denounced before the Organization of the American States (O.A.S.), the intervention of the government of the United States in Venezuela’s internal politics aimed at ousting President Hugo Chavez.



Through a speech before the Permanent Council of the O.A.S., the ambassador of Venezuela before that organization, Jorge Valero, denounced actions by the government of the United States that violated Venezuela’s sovereignty and articles 3 and 19 of the O.A.S. charter.



"The Bolivarian Government denounces in a responsible manner before this forum, that the U.S. National for Endowment Democracy (NED) has been used - and continues being used by the Government of the United States, to support undemocratic activities of groups of the opposition in Venezuela," Valero said.



The ambassador stressed the democratic and peaceful character of the Venezuelan process of changes led by President Chavez." The Bolivarian revolution has a democratic and peaceful character, but it is being opposed irrationally by minority sectors that, allied with international interests, who fear losing their immoral privileges," Valero stressed.

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=1242
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-02-04 09:24 AM
Response to Original message
5. 10,000 'died of hunger' in Zimbabwe
Andrew Meldrum in Pretoria
Sunday January 11, 2004
The Observer

Amid claims that up to 10,000 Zimbabweans have died from malnutrition in the past year, President Robert Mugabe has been accused of raiding his country's dwindling coffers to fund an extended holiday in Asia.
The charges against Mugabe came as police yesterday arrested three senior journalists from the Zimbabwe Independent newspaper for reporting his winter break.

Editor Iden Wetherell, news editor Vincent Kahiya and senior reporter Dumisani Muleya are being held on charges that the newspaper criminally defamed Mugabe by reporting that he commandeered an Air Zimbabwe jet for his three-week trip.

'I told police that we stand by our story,' Wetherell said when reached by mobile phone while in police custody. 'The police say the plane was chartered by Mugabe.'

http://www.guardian.co.uk/zimbabwe/article/0,2763,1120539,00.html

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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-02-04 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. Why do people die in Africa? Because colonialism and postcolonialism
has resulted in a one-way transfer of Africa's resources for over a hundred years to New York, London, Edinburgh, Antwerp, Amsterdam, Rome, Houston, Paris and Berlin.

There is no real middle class, and there are millions of poor, and millions more who have been killed.

The bullshit of colonialism is what Zimbabwe and now Namibia is trying to end through land reform. And the biggest evidence that it's going to work -- that wealth will stop flowing abroad -- is in the anxiety the Western media displays in demonizing governments that try to bring about land reform.

There are leaders WAY worse than Mugabe in Africa, but the media gives them a free pass because they not only aren't a threat to Western corporate profits, but they are totally complicit in the flow of wealth abroad.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-02-04 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. Colonialism in America
1961 American Indian Chicago Conference to promote tribal sovereignty and survival. Later that year, a more militant organization called the National Indian Youth Council is formed. Many other Indian organizations are formed throughout the 1960s, and they all sought an end to termination and relocation policies and demanded self-determination for Indian peoples.
1969 A small group of militant Native Americans calling themselves the "Indians of All Tribes" occupy the (abandoned) island to protest conditions in contemporary Indian America. The occupation lasted for two years and brought national attention to problems in Indian country.
1970 President Richard Nixon formally ended the Termination policy.


1970 The Blue Lake, sacred to the Pueblo, had been declared a national forest in 1904. Taos Pueblo people were not allowed to travel to the lake without a permit from the U.S. government. For the next sixty years, the Pueblo formally protested the government's treatment of Blue Lake. They finally succeeded in regaining possession of the Lake and 48,000 acres around the lake in 1970.
1970 Dee Brown, Bury my Heart At Wounded Knee, published.
1972 "The Trail of Broken Treaties" AIM members and other Indian leaders organize Washington, D.C. protest to demand that the U.S. government recognize tribal rights to self-determination. While in Washington, Indians occupy BIA headquarters.


1973 AIM members and Lakota Sioux occupy the trading post at Wounded Knee Village to draw attention to problems on the Pine Ridge Reservation in South Dakota.
1975 In response to the storm of Indian protests, "the Congress hereby recognizes the obligation of the United States to respond to the strong expression of the Indian people for self-determination by assuring maximum Indian participation in the direction of educational as well as other Federal services to Indian communities so as to render such services more responsive to the needs and desires of those communities."
1975 Two FBI agents are killed at Pine Ridge. Leonard Peltier, an AIM member, is later convicted of the killings and sent to federal prison.
1978 American Indian Religious Freedom Act. Requiring federal agencies to analyze the impact of federal development on Native American sacred sites.

http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:HL1tSnldoOkJ:www.intervarsitynw.o...
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-02-04 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. It's even worse than that.
Edited on Fri Apr-02-04 10:04 AM by AP
Corporations are doing to the middle class in America exaclty what they want to do to your average African citizen.

They want all the wealth you create to flow into the bank account of some huge multinational corporation.

It's alll about which direction the money is flowing, and it's flowing up everywhere, except, right now, in Venezuela, Malaysion, Zimbabwe, Namibia, they're trying to reverse that flow. Oh, and San Diego too. In San Diego, they took over the electric company after it tried to rip them off.

edit: redundancy in last sentence.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-02-04 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Native Americans
Abel, Emily K., and Nancy Reifel. "Interactions Between Public Health Nurses and Clients on American Indian Reservartions During the 1930s." Social History of Medicine 9.1 (1996):89-108.


Benson, Todd. Race, health, and power: The federal government and American Indian health, 1909-1955. Ph.D. Dissertation. Stanford Univ., 1994.

Eichstaedt, Peter H. If You Poison Us: Uranium and Native Americans. Santa Fe, N.M.: Red Crane Books, 1994.
NOTES: Includes bibliographical references (p.241-256) and index.


Gidley, Mick. "'The vanishing race' in sight and sound: Edward S. Curtis's musicale of North American Indian life." Prospects: An Annual of American Cultural Studies 12 (1987):59-87.


Goodwill, Jean Cuthand. "Indian and Inuit Nurses of Canada: Profiles." CWS/CR: Canadian Woman Studies / Les Cahiers de la Femme 10.2/3 (1989):117-24.


Hinsley, Curtis M. Savages and scientists: the Smithsonian Institution and the development of American anthropology, 1846-1910. Washington, D.C.: Smithsonian Institution Press, 1981.


Hinsley, Curtis M. The Smithsonian and the American Indian: making a moral anthropology in Victorian America. Washington: Smithsonian Institution Press, 1994.
NOTES: Originally published: Savages and scientists, 1981. With a new foreword.


Jarrell, Robin. "Native American Women and Forced Sterilization, 1973-1976." Caduceus 8.3 (1992):45-58.


Kunitz, Stephen. "The History and Politics of U.S. Health Care Policy for American Indians." American Journal of Public Health 86.10 (1996):1464-73.


Mallock, Lesley. "Indian Medicine, Indian Health: Study between Red and White Medicine." CWS/CR: Canadian Woman Studies / Les Cahiers de la Femme 10.2/3 (1989):105-14.


Prucha, Francis Paul. Documents of United States Indian policy. Lincoln: University of Nebraska Press, 1990.


Sproule-Jones, Megan. "Crusading for the Forgotten: Dr. Peter Bryce, Public Health, and Prairie Native Residential Schools." Canadian Bulletin of Medical History = buletin Canadien D'Histoire de la Medicine 13.2 (1996):199-224.


Twohig, Peter. "Colonial Care: Medical Attendance among the Mi'Kmaq in Nova Scotia." Canadian Bulletin of Medical History = Buletin Canadien d'Histoire de la Medecine 13.2 (1996):333-353.


Washburn, Wilcomb E. Red man's land/white man's law: a study of the past and present status of the American Indian. New York: Scribner, 1971.

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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-02-04 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. time to start tying these threads together...
Edited on Fri Apr-02-04 09:58 AM by AP
into a coherent theory about how the world works.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-02-04 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #15
21. Colonialism in America
1890s U.S. government began an aggressive campaign to "civilize" Indian people by rounding up Indian children and sending them away to boarding schools. The first step in "civilizing" the children was to cut their hair and burn their clothes and replace them with "civilian" or Euro-American style of dress. The children were forbidden to speak their Native language subject to severe punishment if they violated this rule. These boarding schools were a breeding ground for disease, and many Indian children died while at the schools.
1904 Geronimo exhibited along with other Native peoples at the St. Louis World's Fair
1910 After the suppression of the Ghost Dance religion, a number of Plains tribes began to revive the traditional Sun Dance.


1924 Citizenship Act Passed. Declared all Native American U.S. citizens, entitling Native people to the right to vote in national elections. Out of concern over conditions in Indian country, John Collier persuaded John D. Rockefeller to finance a team of social scientists headed by John Meriam to investigate. Their more than 800 page report stated that Indians were living in deplorable conditions of stark poverty, ill-health, and malnourishment. The report criticized allotment policy and recommended that Congress increase funding to improve Indian health and education and encourage the development of Native American art.
1934 Indian Reorganization Act encourages Native Americans to "recover" their cultural heritage. It allows the teaching of art in government Indian schools and ends allotment policy. In order to take advantage of funding under the IRA, tribes are required to adopt a U.S. style constitution. While many tribes do adopt a constitution, many other tribes including the Navajo refuse to do so.


1930s BIA began allowing Indian children to attend day schools closer to home. In addition, the BIA began to allocate funding to reservation day schools for the teaching of tribal languages.
1950s "Termination Policy" involved settling all federal obligations to a tribe, withdrawing federal support (e.g., health services, education) and closing the reservation. Frequently, tribal members were then relocated to urban areas. Eventually, Congress would terminate services to over 60 tribes including Klamaths, Paiutes, Menominees, Poncas and Catawbas. By 1990, more than 50% of Indians lived in urban areas.

http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:HL1tSnldoOkJ:www.intervarsitynw.o ...
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-02-04 09:28 AM
Response to Original message
7. Zimbabwe journalist arrested


The Daily News printing press was bombed in 2001

The editor of Zimbabwe's only private daily newspaper has been arrested after publishing a story that last month's election results were falsified, his lawyer said.
Geoff Nyarota from The Daily News was charged with falsifying and fabricating information and released three hours later, said Lawrence Chibwe.


Nyarota has been arrested five times in three years

Days after his controversial re-election, President Robert Mugabe signed into law measures which greatly restricted the media.

Another journalist was detained on Monday afternoon, his editor said.

Dumisani Muleya from the Zimbabwe Independent was picked up in connection with a story published last Friday, said the paper's editor, Iden Wetherall.





Nyarota has been arrested five times in three years

http://www.zimbabwesituation.com/apr16a_2002.html#link1

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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-02-04 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. So what happened at the trial? Was he found guilty of any of the charges?
If he was, it clearly hasn't stopped him from reporting.

If bail is $25 for some of these crimes, what's the fine? $100? It looks like it's probably a price these journalists are willing to pay, no doubt, because there's so much money for western corporations in what they do.

By the way, there was a story posted here recently about how Zimbabwe was tired of having western banks dominate the Zimbabwean economy, so they passed laws to help Zimbabwean banks incorporate and the doubled or trippled the number of banks to 11. The article that was posted here was basically a rehash of an IMF press release in which the IMF criticized the fact that there were so many banks in Zimbabwe, the used language which made it sound like it was chaos, and they recommened that Zimbabwe cut the number of banks in half. Hmm. Wonder which banks they think should go? Probably not any of the international banks headquartered in NY and London, eh?

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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-02-04 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #9
30.  TRAIL OF TEARS
TRAIL OF TEARS

1831-2 Trail of Tears. In two key cases, Cherokee Nation v. Georgia (1831) and Worcester v. Georgia (1832), the Supreme Court upheld the right of the Cherokee to stay on their lands. President Andrew Jackson ignored the court's opinion and sent federal troops to forcibly remove the Cherokee and other Civilized Tribes. The Cherokee were removed in 1838 during harsh winter conditions resulting in significant hardship and loss of life; the Cherokee remember this time as the "Trail of Tears."
1832 Black Hawk's War Black Hawk (1767-1838), also called Makataimeshekiakiak, was the leader of the Thunder clan of the Sauk Indians in Illinois. In an effort to halt the settlers' westward expansion, he sided with the British against the Americans in the War of 1812. When he led his tribe back to settle their disputed homeland in Illinois, two Sauks were shot by a body of Illinois volunteers. This led Black Hawk's War in 1832, a guerrilla conflict waged against the Americans. The war ended the same year in the The Battle of Bad Axe, with Sauk warriors trapped by land and water. Finally, left with only a few warriors, Black Hawk, dressed in white deerskin, turned himself in. Though a prisoner, he was immensely popular, and in 1833 was presented to President Andrew Jackson. Jackson allegedly felt so threatened by Black Hawk's popularity that he released the chief and sent back to the West.



1835-42 The Second Seminole War When Jackson became President, he set about moving the Seminoles out of Florida, leading to the second War between Seminoles and United States. When Seminoles refused to cede their land and were giving refuge to runaway slaves, slave owners and plantation farmers demanded immediate retribution. The American army committed several atrocities, including hunting Indians with bloodhounds, and the capture of the Seminole warrior Osceola while under a flag of truce. It was the most fierce and costly war in America's history up to that time.
1841 The Oregon Trail was a vital passage to the Pacific Northwest Territory. The first wagon train set out on the long trail across the plains and through the Rocky Mountains in 1841; by 1845 more than five thousand pioneers had made the journey.


1848 Gold is discovered at Sutter's Mill, California. The subsequent "Gold Rush" and Euro-American settlement in California results in a drop in California Indian population from about 120,000 in 1850 to fewer than 20,000 by 1880. Gold miners changed the environment so much that Indians could no longer pursue their traditional means of procuring food. Indians raided mining camps for food and miners retaliated. Indians caused such problems for miners, that by 1851 the governor of California condoned a policy of extermination against California Indians.
1848 Purchases the territory which become the states of California, Utah, Nevada, Arizona, and Colorado from Mexico for $5,000,000.


1851 Treaty of Fort Laramie: The U.S. and several Plains tribes including the Sioux, Cheyenne and Arapaho enter into the Treaty. The purpose of the Treaty was to force the Indians to agree to allow Euro-Americans to pass through their territory on their way to the far west, i.e., California, Washington, and Oregon. In exchange, the U.S. government agreed to respect tribal boundaries.


1851 The Navajo considered the site of Fort Defiance to be sacred and thus the fort as an invasion of their territory. A pattern of violent confrontations between the U.S. and the Navajo begins.


1851 The Minnesota Santee Sioux had their lives uprooted when they ceded their land to the U.S. government in 1851. For eleven years, they were entirely dependent on white merchants and government annuities. When the annual payment failed to arrive in 1862, the Santee rioted that August.


1854 The Brule Sioux were especially hostile to the whites who came to Wyoming, and their attacks on white settlers led to war against the U.S. Army, led by General William S. Harney. The conflict started in 1854, after a band of Brules killed an emigrant's cow.


1855 In 1855, Governor Issac Ingalls Stephens, accompanied by translator and artist Gustavus Sohon, convened a meeting with all the tribes of the Upper Columbia River in order to sign land treaties with them.


1860-1864 Tensions between the Navajo Indians and American military forces in the New Mexico Territory resulted in the Navajo War. During a final standoff at Canyon de Chelly, fears of starvation and harsh winter conditions forced the Navajo to surrender to Kit Carson and his troops in January 1864. Carson ordered the destruction of their property and organized the Long Walk of the Navajo to the Bosque Redondo, a reservation already occupied by Mescalero Apaches on the Pecos River.


1861 Civil War Begins. Many tribes including the Five Civilized Tribes (now living in Oklahoma Territory) side with the Confederacy which promises in return for Indian support to respect Indian sovereignty. After the end of the War, the U.S. government punishes the Five Civilized Tribes by forcing the Tribes to cede land.


1864 Sand Creek Massacre. Cheyenne and Arapaho were awaiting surrender terms when attacked; more than 120 people killed--mostly women and children.


1866 "The Battle of One Hundred Slain" In retaliation for the Sand Creek Massacre and other atrocities, Plains tribes banded together and declared war on the United States.


1866-68 Red Cloud leads the successful fight to close off the Bozeman Trail, a pass leading to the gold mines of Montana. The trail crosses over the traditional hunting grounds of the Teton.


1867 Treaty of Medicine Lodge. The largest treaty-making gathering in U.S. history, between U.S. and the Cheyenne and Arapaho Nations; results in the removal of the two tribes to a reservation in Indian Territory. Their reservation is created out of lands taken from the Five Civilized Tribes who had been forced to give them up because of their support for the South during the Civil War. Crow, Comanche, Kiowa, Sioux, Apache and dozens of other tribes were represented.


1868 Sioux Indians sign a treaty guaranteeing their rights to the Black Hills of Dakota. Later that year, the U.S. Army led by George Armstrong Custer slaughters an unarmed gathering of Cheyenne encamped at the Washita River--again killing mostly women and children.


The agreement offered the Union Pacific Railroad the right of way through the Green River Valley in exchange for Indian reservation land


1868 Lieutenant-Colonel George Custer fought the so-called Battle of the Washita in November 1868. This raid on Cheyenne Chief Black kettle's camp on Oklahoma was in retaliation for Cheyenne raids on Kansas settlements the previous month. It was part of a massive military campaign to contain all Indians who refused to stay within their newly assigned reservations.


1873-74 The "Buffalo War" A last desperate attempt by the Cheyenne, Arapaho, Comanche and Kiowa to save the few remaining buffalo herds from destruction by Euro-American hunters in Oklahoma and Texas.


1874 expedition led by Lt. Col. George A. Custer discovers gold in the Black Hills, sending a rush of prospectors to the area. The Sioux revolt.


1876 Battle of the Little Big Horn On June 25, Custer attacks a large hunting camp of Sioux, Cheyenne and Arapaho on the Little Big Horn River in Montana. Sitting Bull, Gall, Crazy Horse, and several Cheyenne leaders defeat Custer and the 7th Cavalry. General Custer and 250 soldiers are killed.


1877 After an impressive flight of more than 1,000 miles from their homeland in Oregon, the Nez Perce led by Chief Joseph finally surrender. The U.S. relocates the Nez Perce to Indian Territory, breaking its promise to allow them to return to their homeland.


1881 Helen Hunt Jackson's A Century of Dishonor published, detailing the plight of Native Americans and criticizing U.S. treatment of Indians.


1886 After more than two decades of armed conflict with the U.S. government, Geronimo and his band (including women and children) are sent by train to Florida and imprisoned at St. Augustine.


1887 During the 1880s, Euro-American reformers grew concerned that Indians were not improving themselves and becoming self-sufficient but were sinking into poverty and despair. The purpose of the Act was to force individual Indians to live on small family farms. Every Indian would receive 160 acres of land. Any land left over was sold. One goal of allotment was to destroy Indian "communalism," i.e., the practice of many families living together and sharing property. Tribes affected by allotment were those located in states where land was most sought after for farming by Euro-American settlers: North and South Dakota, Kansas, Minnesota and Wyoming. Within the first ten years of allotment, more than 80 million acres of Indian land were opened for Euro-American settlement.


1889 An act by the U.S. Congress in March 1889 splits the Great Sioux Reservation into six smaller reservations. Some of the tribes begin performing the Ghost Dance, a religious ceremony thoughtto extinguish the whites, return the buffalo, and the former way of life. South Dakota is admitted to the union in November.


1890 Wovoka, a Paiute prophet, defined a new religion combining Christian and Native elements. This religion was dubbed the "Ghost Dance" religion because its followers believed that practicing ritual dance would bring back dead loved ones (both human and animal) and restore the land to Native peoples. The Ghost Dance religion swept through the Great Plains quickly gaining a huge following from peoples devastated by disease, warfare, and Euro-American encroachment. Ghost dancers believed that clothing worn in the dance would make them invulnerable to bullets or other forms of attack. The U.S. government became increasingly anxious about the spread of the Ghost Dance religion because of the large number of Indians who came together to participate in the ceremony.


1890, December 29

Massacre at Wounded Knee Creek The Lakota Sioux held a ghost dance on the Pine Ridge Reservation. When an Indian Agent learned of the dance he requested that federal troops be sent to stop it. Armed troops opened fire on a band of Big Foot's band of Lakota people killing 200-250 men, women and children. The event is often described as the last major conflict between the U.S. Army and the Great Sioux Nation.


1894 U.S. Army imprisons hostile Hopi leaders on Alcatraz Island.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-02-04 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. We were talking about T-R-I-A-L-S (not t-r-a-i-l-s)
If you have a point to make about Native Americans, why don't we discuss it in a new thread. I thought you prided yourself on started new threads, yet all this great stuff about Native Americans is getting burried in these other threads.

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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-02-04 09:41 AM
Response to Original message
10. Mercenaries fall into arms trap
ZIMBABWE state security agents laid a trap for the 67 suspected mercenaries arrested in Harare on Sunday on their way to Malabo, Equatorial Guinea, to stage a military coup against President Teodoro Obiang Nguema Mbasogo, it has emerged.
Official sources said yesterday security operatives, who included the Central Intelligence Organisation, Military Intelligence (MI) and the police, worked with the Zimbabwe Defence Industries (ZDI) to net the alleged soldiers of fortune who face the death penalty if convicted.

Mann and an associate named Nicholas Du Toit were in Zimbabwe in February for the purchase of military hardware. Mann then came back with two colleagues on March 5. Someone identified as Simon Witherspoon was linked to the group.

Mann is an ex-Royal Scots Guard and troop commander with the elite British Special Air Services (SAS). He also worked for the notorious South African mercenaries firm, Executive Outcomes which was absorbed in 1998 into the British private military company, Sandline International.

Executives Outcomes mercenaries have worked with Sandline in Africa, Asia and South America. They have been paid millions of United States dollars, including US$35,2 million for restoring Sierra Leone president Ahmed Tejan Kabbah who was deposed by rebels in 1995.
Home Affairs minister Kembo Mohadi has said information extracted from Mann showed the arrested men were collaborating with the United States' Central Intelligence Agency, Britain's MI6 and the Spanish Special Services in their mission.

He said Mann was promised £1 million and oil mining concessions in the Malabo Islands. Equatorial Guinea has petroleum, timber, unexploited deposits of gold, manganese and uranium. The aircraft reportedly flew from Sao Tome and Principe - where US soldiers were said to be currently training - on March 7 with an American crew to South Africa where it picked up the arrested mercenaries.

http://www.theindependent.co.zw/news/2004/March/Friday12/2309.html
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-02-04 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. So let me get this straight. Zimbabwe had a coordinated effort to trap
Pinkertons for oil companies?

No wonder the western media wants to get rid of that government.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-02-04 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. Indian, American Indian, and Native Americans: Counterfeit Identities
In his recent article "The Colonialism of Names" (Winds of Change, Winter, 1997), Dr. Jack Forbes argued for throwing off the names of colonialism and insisted that Indigenous Peoples be treated as human beings worthy of respect. I totally agree with his thinking and suggest we begin by refusing to use "Indian," "American Indian," or "Native American" to identify the Indigenous Peoples of the United States. I believe these words are names of colonialism and reflect the linguistic imperialism that Howard Adams cautions us about in the above quote. Colonialism refers to when an alien people invade the territory inhabited by people of a different race and culture and establish political, social, spiritual, intellectual, and economic domination over that territory. Colonialism includes territorial and resource appropriate by the colonizer and loss of sovereignty by the colonized.

In my most recent writings, I consistently use the terms "Indigenous" and "First Nations" Peoples. For me, using these terms is an important part of my intellectual decolonization and liberation from linguistic imperialism. I prefer using Indigenous Peoples because it is an internationally accepted descriptor for peoples
who are the descendants of the original inhabitants of the lands, and have suffered and survived a history of
colonialism (for example, see the U.N. Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, www.halcyon.com/FWDP/drft9329.html). I like the term because it is accurate and reflects who we really are. For instance, Webster’s New Collegiate Dictionary, 1981, defines indigenous "as having originated in...or living naturally in a particular region or environment" whereas, Indian is defined "as a native inhabitant of the
subcontinent of India or of the East Indies." Adding American to the term Indian does little more than reflect the
more recent colonization of Indigenous Peoples by the United States government. I also prefer First Nations
because it suggests that such persons are the original peoples of the land and hold aboriginal title to the lands they occupy. The term also has a strong spiritual foundation because it comes from tribal elders in British Columbia who maintain the traditions of First Nations include a belief in a Creator who placed their Nations on the land to care for and control them.

The terms Indigenous and First Nations Peoples still generalize the identity of the more than 550 Indigenous groups in the lower forty-eight states and Alaska. However, I believe they are empowering "generalized" descriptors because they accurately describe the political, cultural, and geographical identities, and struggles of all aboriginal peoples in the United States. I no longer use "Indian," "American Indian," or "Native American" because I consider them to be oppressive, "counterfeit identities." A counterfeit identity is not only bogus and misleading, it subjugates
and controls theidentity of Indigenous Peoples.

more
http://aistm.org/yellowbirdessay.htm
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-02-04 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. Fear and Voting in Latin America: A Report from El Salvador and Venezuela
Seven Oaks: You were recently in El Salvador for the elections. How did the Right win, seemingly so easily?



Henry Nava: Yes, I was in that Central American country, responding to the invitation from the FMLN and, look, I don't believe that the ultra-right did win so easily because for this to happen you have to do it by defeating your enemies, with clear rules of democracy, competing in equal conditions, and by convincing the electorate that your proposal is the best.



S.O.: What was the role of the media in creating those unequal conditions?



H.N.: We have always said in Venezuela in April, 2002, that there was the first media coup of the century, but in the country of Oscar Romero they have just executed the first electoral media victory of the century with the support, of course, not only of the United States but also of the oligarchy of the whole continent. As you know, the president-elect is the owner of a major sector and president of a business association, so that should give you an idea of what the people can expect. The media planted terror, assassinating the hopes of a people.

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1145
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-02-04 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. Coercive Assimilation, 1900s to 1960s


Throughout both their histories, the U.S. and Canadian governments have used their dealings with Native Americans to increase federal power. During removal and the Indian Wars, the U.S. government, especially the federal army, grew not only in manpower but also in bureaucracy. Provisioning federal troops, supplying them, and establishing the governing agencies for Native Americans increased the size and power of the national government. Similarly in Canada, the Indian Act and the numbered treaties created large governing agencies. Such bureaucracies—known eventually in the United States as the Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA) and as the Department of Indian Affairs (later the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development, or DIAND) in Canada—exerted powerful influences over the everyday lives of Native Americans, particularly in the late 19th and early 20th centuries

Beginning mainly in the 1880s in the United States and shortly thereafter in Canada, these government agencies instituted programs that aimed to reconfigure the fabric of Native American life. Known as the assimilation campaigns, these policies attempted to transform Native Americans into “citizens” by stripping them of their lands, cultures, languages, religions, and other markers of their ethnic identity. Assimilation brought continued challenges to Native Americans, many of whom had only recently been confined to reservations and reserves.

For many Native Americans, such cultural attacks were as painful and difficult as the previous generations of war. Native American communities lost their children, who were sent to U.S. boarding schools and Canadian residential schools where families were prohibited from visiting and children were punished for speaking their languages. Some Native American religious rituals, such as the Ghost Dance and Sun Dance, were outlawed. Native American men were forced to abandon previous forms of economic subsistence, such as buffalo hunting, for the distant hope of becoming farmers. Many communities were resettled onto reservation lands in the least desirable and fertile parts of their former territories. Everywhere, government control and surveillance of Native American life increased.
The bitter irony of so many of these coercive policies was that those who developed them believed they were acting in the best interests of Native Americans. Many of America’s leading religious leaders and progressive reformers helped lead this assault to “kill the Indian, but save the man.” Senator Henry Dawes, for example, sincerely believed that he was helping Native Americans when he sponsored the Dawes Severalty Act, or the General Allotment Act of 1887. That act divided Native American reservations, which were owned communally, into separate plots of land owned by individual tribal members. Supporters thought the act would “civilize” Native Americans by making them ranchers and farmers and instill individualism.

http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761570777_28/Native_Americans_of_North_America.html#endads
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David__77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-02-04 10:58 AM
Response to Original message
22. British colonialism.
It's without doubt that Mugabe has been corrupted over the years. But I do think that British motives here are suspect. It's the former slavemaster of Rhodesia after all. They want someone in power there who will bend to Western and IMF/World Bank dictates. Mugabe stands in the way of that agenda.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-02-04 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. The IMF has said that Zimbabwe needs to close half their national banks.
Edited on Fri Apr-02-04 11:07 AM by AP
I believe there used to be only 4 national banks in Zimbabwe which dominated the entire economy. They were all foreign-owned. Zimbabwe took steps to open 8 more which were Black-Zimbabwean owned and which were primarily interested in developing the Zimbabwean economy for Zimbabwe.

One or two of those banks have closed due to financial problems which shouldn't be any surprise -- they practically opened overnight. Obviously that's no condemnation of the economic logic of having these local banks involved in the economy, at the very least, providing competition to banks whose loyalties lie elsewhwere, and at best, turing the banking sector entirely into something which works for Zimbabwe first.

However, the IMF is using the (again, predictabe) financial problems as evidence that Zimbabw needs to close all but 6 of the banks. Do you think of the banks they think should close are headquartered anywhere other than in Zimbabwe? I doubt it.

The representation of Zimbabwe in the press, and the treatment by foreign governments is 99.9% about which direction Zimbabwe's wealth is going to flow, inwards or towards Europe and it's .1% about what Mugabe is all about.

For comparison, the guy the US supports in VZ -- Carlos Ortega -- was taped saying that he believes that VZ needs 10-12 years of a dictatorship to get back on track. That's the guy we're supporting on the grounds that Chavez is antidemocratic! America doesn't care about democracy and human rights. It cares about the direction the wealth flows.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-02-04 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. I agree with you completely
Edited on Fri Apr-02-04 11:15 AM by seemslikeadream
No doubt. My thoughts are if someone is so passionate about their beliefs they can not be hypocritical in their own existence. If what is good for Africa should be good for America. Give the Native Americans back their land and their self rule. The stealing of their homeland is no more less than the stealing of African land. Which in America has not ended yet, it continues to this day. Live by the sword die by the sword.

And if a person is not ready to do that then he/she should not be reporting to be an authority on how Africans can solve their problems.

Because if you are an American and are not trying to stop this and make amends, you are guilty of the very thing you accuse others of.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-02-04 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. War Against the Weak - Edwin Black
How American corporate philanthropies launched a national campaign of ethnic cleansing in the United States, helped found and fund the Nazi eugenics of Hitler and Mengele — and then created the modern movement of "human genetics."

In the first three decades of the 20th Century, American corporate philanthropy combined with prestigious academic fraud to create the pseudoscience eugenics that institutionalized race politics as national policy. The goal: create a superior, white, Nordic race and obliterate the viability of everyone else.
How? By identifying so-called "defective" family trees and subjecting them to legislated segregation and sterilization programs. The victims: poor people, brown-haired white people, African Americans, immigrants, Indians, Eastern European Jews, the infirm and really anyone classified outside the superior genetic lines drawn up by American raceologists. The main culprits were the Carnegie Institution, the Rockefeller Foundation and the Harriman railroad fortune, in league with America's most respected scientists hailing from such prestigious universities as Harvard, Yale and Princeton, operating out of a complex at Cold Spring Harbor on Long Island. The eugenic network worked in tandem with the U.S. Department of Agriculture, the State Department and numerous state governmental bodies and legislatures throughout the country, and even the U.S. Supreme Court. They were all bent on breeding a eugenically superior race, just as agronomists would breed better strains of corn. The plan was to wipe away the reproductive capability of the weak and inferior.

Ultimately, 60,000 Americans were coercively sterilized — legally and extra-legally. Many never discovered the truth until decades later. Those who actively supported eugenics include America's most progressive figures: Woodrow Wilson, Margaret Sanger and Oliver Wendell Holmes.

American eugenic crusades proliferated into a worldwide campaign, and in the 1920s came to the attention of Adolf Hitler. Under the Nazis, American eugenic principles were applied without restraint, careening out of control into the Reich's infamous genocide. During the pre-War years, American eugenicists openly supported Germany's program. The Rockefeller Foundation financed the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute and the work of its central racial scientists. Once WWII began, Nazi eugenics turned from mass sterilization and euthanasia to genocidal murder. One of the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute doctors in the program financed by the Rockefeller Foundation was Josef Mengele who continued his research in Auschwitz, making daily eugenic reports on twins. After the world recoiled from Nazi atrocities, the American eugenics movement — its institutions and leading scientists — renamed and regrouped under the banner of an enlightened science called human genetics.

http://www.waragainsttheweak.com/
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-02-04 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. Hey, I'm all for that.
Edited on Fri Apr-02-04 11:14 AM by AP
I'm all for righting wrongs. Why do you assume I'm not?

Step right up. What do you want? Let's take it to a court of law. Let's work out the arguments. Let's make reparations. Let's give back land that has bad chain in title. Let's give monetary compensation where possible.

By the way, what happened to all that money (BILLIONS OF DOLLARS!!!) that was stolen from the BIA trust fund?
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-02-04 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. Bad land title?
Dispossession has inflicted on Native Americans an intertwined spiritual poverty as well. You have some whose whole way of life are based on buffalo, but we have no buffalo. This loss causes a kind of grieving in our community.

It is not a question of material wealth, but having conditions of human dignity within the reservation.

Many of the families used to eat 20-25 fish meals a month, It's now said that the traditional Mohawk diet is spaghetti.

Will your reparations give back the buffalo, the fish, or the Native American spirit.

American court system, please!
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-02-04 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. Tell me what you want, and we'll work it out.
You can't let wrongs go unrighted. It's bad for society.

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David__77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-02-04 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #24
28. So what is your program for the U.S.
I think I understand your point. I didn't address the question of U.S. colonialism, which more of a settler-colonialism like South Africa.

How would self-determination for indigenous people in North America be worked out in your opinion?
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-02-04 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. I am a realist
I know that self-determination for indigenous people in North America would never happen. I just find that some folks, not you have a very narrow view of the ways of the world. They can talk the good talk but when push come to shove they would never live the life they expound for others to lead.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-02-04 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. You're talking about me, right?
Push has come to shove, and I'm not sure you've been able to prove your point. How have I failed you.

I've never argued that Zimbabweans need to get their 'spirit' back (which is all you've asked for above), so I'm not sure how that's inconsistent. I have said that the victims of colonialism should be entitled to the law, land and financial redress, which you seem to have rejected out of hand.

If anyone has to get their argument and their view of the world together, I don't think it's me.

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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-02-04 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. AP
You say

I have said that the victims of colonialism should be entitled to the law, land and financial redress.

This has been in context of native Africans.

Native Americans have also been victims of colonialism and should be intitled to the law, land and financial redress. But they are not.
When you talk about what should be done in Africa please think about what that would mean for immigrants to America, are you or your family one of those? Maybe your family has been here for a couple of generations, just like whites in Africa. Put yourself in that position. What would you think of a white African giving the Lakota Nation at Pine Ridge, a Sovereign Nation advise on how to deal with you? You might not like their suggestions.

Well lets start there and see how it goes.

The Birth of the A.I.M

It was to revive the resistance to the white establishment ultimate goal of outright removal of the Indians from the history of this land - resistance that had stood idle for over 80 years - that in the late sixties Dennis Banks, Russell Means and Clyde Bellecourt gathered in Minneapolis, Minnesota, and founded the American Indian Movement.

Set out as a spiritual movement to regain the lost cultural identity through the rediscovery of Indian languages, songs and prayers, and to confront the English only campaign that the US governments had been pursuing, the A.I.M soon became the propelling force of political activities mainly directed to engaging those governments onto the ground of their treacherous Land Treaty Policies.

By 1975, over 75 AIM members had been murdered on the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation alone. Over 300 indian activists have been murdered thenceforth, almost all associated with the AIM, and many imprisoned.

Article Six of the US Constitution states that the Treaties are the Supreme Law of the Land. Yet those governments never abided by any of those. The Lakota Nation at Pine Ridge, according to the treaties of the United States, is a Sovereign Nation. Likewise are all other Indian Nations.

The US Constitution grants all imprisoned indian activists the status of Political Prisoners. Yet the US Judicial System refuses to abide by its own Constitution.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/1088/natives/editorial.htm


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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-02-04 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. Again, I'm having an impossible time understanding your point.
Edited on Fri Apr-02-04 03:09 PM by AP
First thing I should note is that NatAms do get a form of redress (however inadequate): they do have soveriegn nations in some areas, they get to run extremely lucrative gambling casinos, and there was a huge trust fund worth billions which was robbed blind (but it was there, and they should get their money back, and they should try to track down the people who stole from it and get the money back&crimially punish people who took it), and they do get to avoid lots of sales taxes on goods sold in their soveriegn nations.

Don't get me wrong. In no way do I think this is adequate compensation. But it's a far cry from saying they get nothing.

Now, for your argument, like I said, I don't get your point.

In Africa, exiting colonizers totally acknowledged that they didn't have a legal right to the lands they seized. They set up programs to return the land (like voluntary buyer/seller, which they then refused to fund and execute as promissed, which is not unlike the theft from the BIA trust).

We're so far past arguing whether it's sad that a white farmer has to lose the land. What we're up to is accepting that it's the right thing to do, given what we know about, not only colonialism, but also about what happened to Native Americans.

It seems to me that your argument against progress is, 'hey, we didn't do this 200 years ago, so why start with Africa?" My argument is, if we knew the what we know now, we would have done for Native Americans what they're doing in Zimbabwe and Namibia today.

That's progress. Either you can look forward and repeat the mistakes of the past, or you can look forward and avoid for Africa the kind of misery that has been inflicted on Native Americans. You post all those pictures of suffering babies in Africa. You want that to stop? I have two words for you: LAND REFORM.

Get it?
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-02-04 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. AP
You say

We're so far past arguing whether it's sad that a white farmer has to lose the land.

I never argued, never said that it's sad that a white farmer has to lose the land.



What we're up to is accepting that it's the right thing to do, given what we know about, not only colonialism,

How is it your business to accept (not accept) dictate
"the right thing to do" for Zimbabwe when......


but also about what happened to Native Americans.

It is still HAPPENING to Native Americans and you as a citizen of the US lives his life free of concern as to what your government IS doing to them. Proof being you used the word happened(past tense).
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-02-04 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. What? I can't have an opinion?
I think it's interesting that I load these threads up with arguments, and your only response is that it's not my business to have an opinion and an argument.

Why don't you engage the argument rather than dismiss it?

By the way, when I talked about, among other thigns, the Trust fund which has been robbed, and the need to address it, I am talking about the present.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-02-04 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. No doubt you can have an opinion
But it never sounds like an opinion to me when I read your posts, sounds more like "my way or the highway".
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-02-04 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. Huh?
Edited on Fri Apr-02-04 10:09 PM by AP
I'm always willing to respond to responsive posts, and I believe that my posts are responsive to the post to which I'm replying.

Rather than replying with another story (tangential or not), why don't you try taking up the discussion.

And the discussion in this thread is whether your logic makes sense. You think that I can't advocate an end to postcolonialims in Africa if I don't take the NatAm issue on.

I've taken that issue on too. But I still think, as I said, that it's a recipe for never progressiving if you say that, if haven't been doing it for the past 200 years, we can't start behaving responsibly now. It's never to late for social justice. The fate of African vis Europeans and the rest of the world shouldn't depend on how we, in America, deal with Native Americans. And their fate shouldn't have anything to do with me personally, or me and you. And I think I'm always entiteld to talk abou those issues (and you've now takend two sides on that point -- I'm entitled to my opinion according to the post above, but I'm not according to your previous posts.)
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