Marines prepare to raid Fallujah

[VolcanoJen]

Much more information at the link below; something is definitely happening.

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/front/2486565

Excerpt:

FALLUJAH, Iraq -- Thousands of Marines surrounded this anti-American stronghold early today in preparation for a complex raid to retake control of the city and apprehend those responsible for last week's slayings of four U.S. security contractors.

The highly anticipated action, dubbed Operation Valiant Resolve, was expected to be one of the biggest military offensives since the fall of Saddam Hussein's government a year ago.

All roads leading to the city of 300,000 were barricaded with tanks and concertina wire. Working through the cold desert night, Marines set up camps for detainees and residents who might flee any fighting.

Before dawn, several Marine positions were hit by mortars and rocket-propelled grenade fire. Bursts of automatic gunfire could be heard in the city.

[nodehopper]

1. this'll end well.

[VolcanoJen]

2. "Operation Valiant Resolve"

From the article:

The highly anticipated action, dubbed Operation Valiant Resolve, was expected to be one of the biggest military offensives since the fall of Saddam Hussein's government a year ago.

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. oh my

we are trying to end this NOW.....

Reminds me distantly, that is, of TET... but more closely of the Great Arab Revolt, OH LORD... many will die before this is over

[TimMooring]

141. Bush at Peidmont CC this moring (CNN)

Fresh from meeting the family of a dead serviceman.. he was trying to look solemn, but there was a visible tic in his face suppressing his smirky smile - he was bragging about having eliminated the "death" tax! I thought I was going to toss it. I hope democrats will not let this pass. I was disturbed hearing Senator Kerry's remark about cheneybush having to carpool - bush drives a four engine 747 and could care less about the price of gasoline. Did anyone else witness this grizzly performance in NC this morning?

[truth2power]

146. I like that....cheneybush. LOL!

Welcome to DU! :hi:

[TimMooring]

150. It's some kinda GMO thing, Wy ragweed and Tx shrub

With tiny little red balls on it

[IndianaGreen]

10. They should have called it Operation Iron Jackboot

a name which best describes the role that our military is being asked to play.

[Sandpiper]

20. Couldn't have said it better myself

Operation Iron Jackboot is right.

This is nothing more than Emperor George sending in the legion to punish the conquered for their refusal to submit to the empire.

[minkyboodle]

33. the names

Valiant Resolve.... Infinite Justice... they are basically self parody.
Scott

[sniffa]

74. caLL me a 'freedom-Lover hater"

but i reaLLy can't stand these absurd names (ie: Operation Valiant Resolve) given to these missions. just reading it, i can hear the drumbeat, see the news crawL, and picture some unknown fauxnews person praising our Latest success.

[progressiverealist]

94. yes... these titles seem to have been made for Faux and CNN

[tedzbear]

135. Also for our troops so they will believe in what they are about to do...

...which is murder hundreds of innocent women and children in the pursuit of a handful of perpetrators.

What is evil is how Bremer is killing Iraqis as a propaganda move to pacify his backers back home, not for law enforcement.

These rebellious townsfolk should be apprehended by local law enforcement, not by our army tanks. Of course, there is NO local police enforcement.

:nuke:

[TankLV]

148. Can't wait for the new logos and theme music!

I bet they have tons of this crap all lined up and waiting to trott out.

More like operation "Oh Shit!"

I really will pray for the safety of our boys tonite - I feel sorry for all the deaths to come and to all their families. They don't deserve to die this way.

We will see more "crispy critters" and worse, I'm afraid.

God help us all.

I would rather they all storm Fred Phelps', Jerry Falwell's & Pat Robertson's "churches" - it'll do a whole lot more good to everyone else on this planet.

[Kinkistyle]

124. VIOLENT Resolve is more like it.

As in: we are gonna resolve this sicha-ashun with lotsa bullets, blood and body parts.

[progressivebydesign]

133. I saw it termed "VIGILANT RESOLVE".

Wonder which one it is? Perhaps they've changed it.. because the name I saw earlier, sounded too much like VIGILANTE RESOLVE! Can these dumbasses do anything right?

[AnnitaR]

3. "Operation Valiant Resolve"???

You have to fucking kidding me??

Burn in hell Bush you evil bastard!

[bluestateguy]

4. It will be a "military victory" for the US

Just like the Tet Offensive was (seriously), as was the Battle of Antietam in 1862, and the fall of the Baath regime in Iraq a year ago. Like those past episodes, we will be the winner on paper only. The casualties, political fallout and limited strategic value which will come from attacking Fallujah will only be evident after it is too late.

[VolcanoJen]

7. The Tet Offensive was considered a "US military victory?"

I know you wrote seriously, but, seriously?? At the time, when Americans learned of it? I'm very curious to learn more about the mood of the country at that time, if anyone wants to share...

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. While you are at it, look at the Iraqi Revolt in 1920

What is going on right now, FROM THEIR POV, is out of that play book

I may add, I still remember an interview on CBC before the war... the reporter was told, this will be another vietnam... of course there are no jumgles, unless you count the URBAN JUNGLES...

[RoyGBiv]

26. Shades of Victory - Tet

It's all in the language and perspective one uses.

Military historians by and large would call the result of Tet a tactical victory for US forces and even a strategic victory if one removes the political fallout from the equation. That is, the US armed forces involved in the operation massively overwhelmed the VC and NVA, ending the offensive and preventing, by and large, the large-scale uprisings of southern Vietnamese against the US that the offensive was designed to incite. From a strategic perspective, as a result of the offensive, the NVA and VC were unable to mount any large-scale offensive operations for some time afterward.

At home, however, Tet was a political disaster. It, more than any other single event, shocked the American public into opposing the war at levels beyond those who had protested involvement in Vietnam previously. In this sense, Tet was a turning point.

I'm sure some of the veterans I've seen posting here could offer valuable insight into how it was seen by the soldiers on the ground, and others alive at the time could provide personal anecdotes. (I was a year from being born at the time.) My observations above are merely rather sterile renderings of academic conclusions made with the benefit of hindsight.

In the current context, we'll have to see if this is analogous to Tet. In the sense of opening the public's eye to what's really happening over there and to exposing the fact that the Iraqi's resiting occupation are not unorganized and inept, it's looking mighty similar.

[leftchick]

43. Welcome to DU RoyGBiv! Great post.....

"opening the public's eye".... By the time we here in America get our news it is sanitized and spun out of proportion of the reality on the ground in Iraq. Sadly, I am afraid it will be much harder to open those eyes given the state of our media.

[IndianaGreen]

65. The after-Tet shocker: Generals asking for more troops

I think the number was 150-250K more troops, many being brought from Europe and Korea, that the Generals wanted re-deployed to Vietnam to give the coup de grace to the North Vietnamese.

Many of the RA soldiers that had already been in 'Nam, and many more that considered themselves lucky to have been deployed elsewhere, suddenly saw themselves being sent to a war we already lost.

[TahitiNut]

75. I don't think so.

I was drafted right after Tet'68 and in Nam in time to "celebrate" Tet'69. Nixon won the election in '68, partly based on a promise to pull the troops out of Viet Nam. Mid-69 was the high-water mark of the number of troops in Viet Nam. (I know this since USARV Strength Accountability was my focus there.) The military leadership didn't and couldn't ask for that many more troops. Remember, they were reporting success -- both in "body count" and in "pacification" -- against the objectives they were given. (The major problem, just like in Iraq, is that there was no real military objective in any democratic nation's sense. It was, and is, a political objective and one without a democratic synergy.)

Tet'68 was generally seen by the troops in Nam as a complete military victory. The vast majority of guys in Viet Nam were pretty much disgusted that the political spin was that the VC/NVA had "won" that one -- when they suffered massive losses in both manpower and territory.

You have to understand that being a soldier in those days was a very tough role. We reacted badly when it was perceived that folks back home thought we didn't do "our job" very well ... independent of whether that "job" was the right job to be done. The latter question wasn't one we were in a position to deal with, since that's the "job" of the People.

[IndianaGreen]

84. I am merely describing the atmosphere in Europe in February 1968

particularly right after Star & Stripes printed the story about additional troops being send to Vietnam from Germany and Korea.

[jmcgowanjm]

105. yes, it was considered a victory.

I remember, finally the enemy is coming out where we
can destroy him. But LBJ/McNamara knew different.

I was also supporting Nixon then as well.
How times have changed. Nixon would be considered
left wing today.

http://www.vwam.com/vets/tet/tet.html

Giap prepared a bold thrust on two fronts. With memories
of the victory at Dien Bien Phu still in his mind, he planned
an attack on the US Marines' firebase at Khe Sanh. At the
same time the NVA and the NLF planned coordinated
attacks on virtually all South Vietnam's major cities and
provincial capitals. If the Americans opted to defend Khe
Sanh, they would find themselves stretched to the limit
when battles erupted elsewhere throughout the South.

[Jackpine Radical]

113. Actually, Tet probably WAS a military victory for the US

because the Viet Cong (or Viet Minh if you prefer) were pretty much wiped out as a result of that action. Some speculate that this was a deliberate plan of the north, to eliminate the southern guerilla forces so they wouldn't have to deal with them after the eventual, inevitable political victory.

It sure was a Pyrrhic victory for the US, though, because of the political fallout at home.

As a personal note, I was there on the night of Tet, on a small LZ in the Nui Mieu Mountains near the coast, where I could see the Tet celebration fireworks going off in four separate little villages. In one hamlet, and then the next, and then the next, the skyrockets were replaced with tracers in the sky. White Communist tracers & red ones from the ARVN defenders.

[MUAD_DIB]

163. It was a military victory, but a political disaster.

[VolcanoJen]

6. It's the top story on CNN International; explosions heard.

The article says Marine positions were hit by mortars; that could explain the explosions. It seems as though the plan is to close everyone in and go on a manhunt...?

[rumguy]

9. sounds like it could another "long hard slog"

to echo Rummy...

[IndianaGreen]

8. Waffen SS tactics

How marvelous? What's next, air strikes and artillery?

[VolcanoJen]

12. The reporter on CNN-I just said "Bush doesn't have a grip."

He's a commentator talking about the upcoming election, vis-a-vis the weekend's events in Iraq and the ongoing 9/11 Commission hearings.

The whole world is watching...

[RoyGBiv]

28. Not the Whole World

I first got word of this here.

The news stations I have access to are currently airing Larry King Live, NG Explorer, Headline News (what a joke) re-runs from hours ago, and the Beltway Boys.

Thank gopod for DU.

[TankLV]

149. All we need now is to barracade everyone into a mosque and destroy it.

"Bushco is NOT like the Nazis! So stop saying that!"

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

13. "You will kill 10 of our men, and...

we will kill 1 of yours, and in the end it will be you who tire of it. "

-Ho Chi Minh

[BeHereNow]

21. And how-

What the fuck is America doing?
HOW can the people NOT see the dismal repeat of history here?
NO one has ever won against a guerilla army.
Never.
BHN

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

30. I guess the Confederate States of America was an indigenous

resistance with conventional gov't and army but also guerilla elements (Forrest, Mosby's Raiders etc.) that was defeated, but the bulk of the defeat was in the crushing of the conventional army and gov't., and I suppose most of the will of the people to fight or support an underground resistance was sapped in the long brutal war.

It would be interesting to consider what would have happened had the CSA folded its tent early with little losses and a lot of will for resistance left in the people, with a smouldering widespread insurgency against a Northern occupation. I wonder if they might have had greater odds of achieving their political objectives in this way. Probably not, but interesting to speculate.

[jmcgowanjm]

108. You don't think that happened?

The current federal government would be a CSA
wet dream.

The South has picked every President since LBJ.

[polazarus]

121. funny you should mention

"smouldering widespread insurgency against a Northern occupation"
That is how the KKK was initially formed. To run the Carpet Baggers and the Nothern ocuupation out of the south. (the rest of the Klan story is well known and no need to go into detail.) That bit of useless information just popped into my head and I thought I would share it.

[patcox2]

140. Looking at our government, I'd say the CSA is winning.

Took over 100 years, but unreconstructed confederates seem to control the white house and the house, and some of these people being appointed judges sure seem to be the kind who have worn a white sheet in their day. Of course, it wasn't an armed insurgency, but it was orgnanized and tenacious.

[VolcanoJen]

31. I hate to think we've been drawn right into this.

But it sure is starting to look that way.

Kos links to this excellent analysis on BOP:

http://www.bopnews.com/archives/000495.html#495

We should not be outraged at the killings in Fallujah, that is what the attackers want: the obvious signs of a planned attack are in place. The entire situation looks like classic Maoist guerilla fighting - performing an atrocity to make the central authority overreact against a town, and thus securing that town for the guerilla movement.

Being "shocked and outraged" is exactly what the perpetrators wanted to have happen. They wanted us to lose our rationality, and attack in massive force - proving to the locals that the US is a bludgeoning bully who cannot maintain order. The planned atrocity is a classic guerilla tactic: namely, attack the ruling authority in such a way calculated to demand disproportionate response. But the ruling authority cannot find the real perpetrators, and must, therefore, punish the entire town to appease the blood lust of its own people.

More

[KittyWampus]

89. Perhaps The Deaths Of Those Mercenaries Did Some Good

in a peculiar way.

Some people have already changed their attitude towards the Iraq occupation after seeing those pictures. For some, it was the first time they had the gruesome reality presented to them.

If the mutiliation of those 4 men ends up causing an over reaction on the US military's part and that in turn leads to sorrow and outrage on a scale large enough.... maybe the tide will turn.

[okieinpain]

164. now that is deep

[BeHereNow]

14. This is gonna get UGLY...

Okay, I have been truly outraged by what is going
on over there, but now I am officially SCARED.
This is gonna get UGLY now- REAL UGLY.
This is the WORST possible thing that could happen right now.
Absolutely the WORST move they could make.
BHN

[frank frankly]

17. this is all about to get so much worse

they are going to "pacify" a city of 300,000?

DOOMED.

[BeHereNow]

18. TOTAL FUBAR!

People are gonna die here folks.
BIG time.
I've got a REALLY bad feeling about this latest
turn of events.
REALLY bad.
Full moon by the way...
BHN

[Chicago Democrat]

131. Does FUBAR mean Fucked Up By American RepublicanS?

[markses]

15. I posted this elsewhere, but it seems appropriate to repost here

Is another day when (segments of) the population there can

• Propagandize and convert others
  
• Set up booby traps on approach routes, including multiple fields of IEDs
  
• Barricade buildings
  
• Establish interlocking fields of fire
  
• Improve communication and coordination plans for the assault
  
• Establish distance measurements and signals for mortaring
  
• Stockpile supplies and weapons at key locations
  
• Train in urban tactics
  
• Dig tank traps
  

I would say "etc.," but I think it's implied that this list is not exclusive. Point being, we have 4,000 Marines set to clean out Fallujah, and it looks as if they'll be in for some resistance. Could get ugly.

In another analogy, I just saw a commercial for The Alamo. Billy Bob Thorton says "There's several hundred of us, and 4,000 of them..." Yikes.

[jpgray]

16. Did Rumsfeld create an Office of Special Names?

I hate this whole business. :(

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. DoD has always been "cute" with operational names

this is not exclusive to Rummy, though in his case... lets find out if he has not lifted them from Geramn war plans from WW II... he has been known to do that

[Joanne98]

97. Remember last year when the media kept doing a "let's sell weapons

show" The HELLFIRE missile. The DEMON doctors. Why the hell would you invade a country full of Muslims who think your the "great Satan" then name everything after Satan? How stupid is that. Hi Muslims. we're not the great Satan but, see our HELLFIRE missiles. See our medical team called the DEMON doctors. Are they stupid, or just faking it?

[m-jean03]

132. You jest, surely?

That's unbelievable if true.

[VolcanoJen]

22. ABC World News Now - live, talking about Falluja (3:00 am)

Most ABC local affiliates carry this broadcast... much more info on television. They have an NPR embedded reporter discussing what is happening.

My transcript, to the best of my ability

Embedded reporter, a little shaken says: "There are combat Marine units, and unidentified Iraqi enemy forces. There are reports of helicopter gunships firing onto enemy forces, or anti-coalition forces as the Marines call them. There's been, uh, these are the beginning stages of a battle here. Right now it's been pretty quiet, we'll see what happens as the day progresses."

[BeHereNow]

24. I am afraid to know...

Really, I don't think I can take it.
This is SO out of control!
Mothers will lose their children tonight.
Children will lose their mothers and fathers.
And so on...
GOD DAMNIT!
BHN

[Fenris]

23. The Nazis used similar tactics in France and Eastern Europe

Sometimes without reason. Look up Lidice and Oradour.

[Scurrilous]

25. Operation Valiant Resolve?

These guys seem to have a thing for the term 'valiant'...


March 20, 2003 - Operation Valiant Strike launched against al-Qaeda in Afghanistan.


April 05, 2004 - Operation Valiant Resolve launched against Fallujah.


Coming soon - Operation Valiant Retreat from Iraq.

[AnnitaR]

27. Too bad most of those guys no nothing about valor!

People like Rummy & Wolfowitz have no idea!

[punpirate]

29. Hmmm...

... does anyone remember "Operation Iron Hammer" from Oct-Nov 2003? That one didn't do much to solve the problem. I suspect "Operation Valiant Resolve" is much in the same vein--propaganda for the Bushies.

[Judi Lynn]

32. Thanks for getting the news out on this. Here's more from the L.A. Times

article carried in the Seattle Times:

(snip)
On the outskirts of the city last night, battalions from the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force geared for a battle, setting up checkpoints and camps in preparation for their eventual return to the hostile city. As they braced against one of the season's first blistering sandstorms, several Marines said they were rearing to avenge Wednesday's killings.

"I've got a lot of hate inside me, but I try to put that aside," said Sgt. Eric Nordwig, 29, of Riverside, Calif., a veteran of the battle to topple Saddam Hussein. "We just sit and take it and be mortared." The time has come to "clean up the town," he said.

In Washington, D.C., Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz briefed members of the House Armed Services Committee on plans for retaliation in Fallujah. Rep. Duncan Hunter, R-Calif., the committee's chairman, said the classified briefing suggested that a reprisal may entail the use of U.S. air power.

Inside Fallujah, many of the city's quarter-million residents warned of further bloodshed if the Marines return. In an interview before Friday prayers, a senior Fallujah cleric made no apologies for the attack on the four Americans as they drove through the town Wednesday morning, but he condemned the subsequent mutilation of corpses and dragging of the bodies through the streets.
(snip/...)

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2001894733_iraq03.html

[VolcanoJen]

34. Here's CNN's article; nothing really new here

Marines Lock Down Fallujah

[Neecy]

88. freeper Marine

"I've got a lot of hate inside me, but I try to put that aside," said Sgt. Eric Nordwig, 29, of Riverside, Calif., a veteran of the battle to topple Saddam Hussein. "We just sit and take it and be mortared." The time has come to "clean up the town," he said.

Holy crap! HE'S got a lot of hate? HE does? We invaded their goddamn country! How did they expect the Iraqis to react?

Clean up the town...oh, crap. This all just makes me sick.

[teryang]

110. Reprisals are a Geneva Convention violation

Who's choice of words is this? Wolfowitz? Rep. Hunter's? The reporter's?

[polazarus]

123. I say...

Let them get Saddam back. If they did that to Saddam and his troops, they would not have any hands after that. I am tired of us messing with that country. I say let France or Russia help them out. Or better yet let china take them over. Lets see how they like that. I told Iraq to kiss my butt back in 1990 and I tell them now. I am for human rights and freedom but I have lost all hope for these people.

(Forgive me, old sores left over from Gulf War I)

[Kinkistyle]

126. Gee! How nice of ya! Woulda do that for em?

Even though the Iraqi's didn't even really ask us to go in there and "free" them??

[David Dunham]

35. This "battle" will only result in more GI's being needlessly killed.

[Crunchy Frog]

36. I have a really bad feeling about this.

I think there is going to be a bloodbath, and that the main victims will be Iraqi civilians.

The actual shooters probably consisted only of a tiny cell which dispersed into the general population immediately. The people who dragged and mutilated the bodies were a random mob with many young boys joining in.

In short, there is noone to really target, other than the general population of Fallujah.

The Marines sound as if their main agenda is vengeance, rather than any concrete military objectives.

This whole thing has me really nervous.:scared:

[RoyGBiv]

37. On the List

They supposedly have a list of homes they're going to invade to search for "insurgents." This list was given to them by intelligence officials.

Yeah...a list. Someone else used to make lists like that too.

I can't find right now where I read this. Been speed surfing the last hour or so to try to find something on this to make up for lack of local media coverage.

[Judi Lynn]

50. I read that too, RoyGBiv. Sorry, can't remember where, either.

Too much going on tonight!

I thought at the time, that this would be a prime opportunity for really vicious people to supply names of their enemies as likely "insurgents," as they probably aren't going to knock themselves out trying to make sure they've got the right people before blowing them up.

Just another blood-bath, carried on with a pretense of "righteous indignation."

Incidently, welcome to DU! :hi: :hi:

[truth2power]

147. The US has done that in various parts of the world too numerous to mention

Lists. Usually after we've staged one of our "coups" against a democratically elected govt. the CIA gives the new bosses lists of the opposition and the death squads terminate them.

El Salvador? Iran after Mossedegh? I can't remember either.

[TankLV]

153. Bush is NOT like Hitler! The repukes are NOT like Nazis!

So stop saying that!

[sampsonblk]

38. Kristallnacht in Fallujah

Time to pray for everyone involved.

[Capt_Nemo]

39. Operation Mass Graves underway

"We can do better than Saddam" is new Marines' moto.

[JCMach1]

40. Remember, these Marines are GREEN!!!

They just rotated in...

That is a recipe for disaster.

[BeHereNow]

42. I believe they are referred to as

hamburger?
Raw meat for the empire grill?
WE have to stop this- NOW
BHN

[JCMach1]

44. I think a My Lai type massacre is almost a certainty

:( :( :(

[Judi Lynn]

53. I read some time ago that in the early days in Iraq

officers were encouraged to call on the images of the Twin Towers to their troups to psych them up to do battle against the citizens.

This time they'll have the very raw images of crispy taxpayer supported mercenaries. Very close in time and space, guaranteed to get people wild.

[RoyGBiv]

60. They are a Subculture

I found the following comment from a Time magazine article, and it helped my brain a bit...just a bit, but I'll take anything I can get right now:

"Those Blackwater guys," says an intelligence officer in Iraq, "they drive around wearing Oakley sunglasses and pointing their guns out of car windows. They have pointed their guns at me, and it pissed me off. Imagine what a guy in Fallujah thinks." Adds an Army officer who just returned from Baghdad, "They are a subculture."

<http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101040412-607775,00.html>

Other things mentioned in that article indicate a strained relationship between the military and the mercenaries. (This sounds a little too historically familiar, which is truly frightening.)

So, *maybe*, the military guys realize what's what with them.

Thank you and everyone else for the welcome, btw. It's much appreciated.

[DoYouEverWonder]

41. BBC reporting at 5:30 AM EST

Fresh fighting reported between Iraqi Shias and US forces in Baghdad. More soon.

[MrSlayer]

45. Well, I wish our guys the best in this insanity.

How tragic it is for our Marines and all our Armed Forces to be misused in this way. A lot of those guys are good kids with a bad boss forced into a bad situation. Ah what a mess we've gotten ourselves into.

[JCMach1]

46. The best of what-- EVERYONE is about to lose

:(

[MrSlayer]

47. Yes, I realize that. However...

If there are going to be battles I want us to win them with as few casualties as possible. So, I wish them the best possible luck.

[JCMach1]

48. I have relatives in the military and students who have family

in Fallujah...

I can make no good out of the situation unless it were to stop now with NO killing...

Not bloody likely.



PS I am however glad they are not in the Marine group that is moving into Fallujah...



IT just sucks all around.

[MrSlayer]

54. I agree whole heartedly. It certainly does suck.

The whole thing is a pathetic waste of lives on both sides.

[nonbelief]

49. You know what, folks?

As a non-American, I feel about as much concern for the safety of American marines in Fallujah as I would have felt for German troops in the Warsaw Ghetto

Tough shit.

[AnnitaR]

51. I think your anger

should be directed at the sorry ass American President who put them there and not the troops.

Some of those guys want to be there about as much as you want them to be there. They are just doing what our dumb fuck of a President tells them to do.

[nonbelief]

80. So?

I'm sure plenty of German troops didn't want to be in Warsaw either. But I don't cry for them.

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

81. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ripley]

83. Wow, that was fast nick.

How committed you are to a philosophy I see. :eyes:

[saigon68]

106. adios

[Bridget Burke]

76. So, tell us more about yourself.

Are you foreign-born, living in the USA?

Are you posting from abroad?

[nonbelief]

82. I'm not in America

But I've had two articles published on this site...I've earned my stripes here.

[Ripley]

85. Are you in the DU Militia?

I didn't know we had one. :shrug:

[Name removed]

96. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

125. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[leftchick]

52. A Little more Information here....

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s1081580.htm

There was no official confirmation of the report but an AFP correspondent said US forces have sealed all roads leading to Fallujah, barricading residents inside the flashpoint town

"US forces bombed the Goland residential neighbourhood after coming under mortar attack from unknown assailants," Borhan Abed, a resident of the northern Fallujah neighbourhood, told AFP.

Several people were killed, others wounded and some houses hit, said Mr Abed, adding that he went on to the roof of his house when the fighting started and saw US aircraft overhead.

According to Mr Abed, the fighting erupted at 4:00 am (local time) and lasted 90 minutes.

The AFP correspondent said US forces erected sand barricades on roads and bridges leading in and out of Fallujah.

Meanwhile, the US-led occupation forces said they had closed the highways linking Baghdad to Jordan that run through Fallujah and the neighbouring town of Ramadi.

The roads are normally busy each day with travellers entering and leaving Iraq.AFP

[AnnitaR]

55. Bomb them into submission...

that will "win the hearts and minds" of the Iraqis!

This is sick! I'm so ashamed of what is going on over there.

[MrSlayer]

57. This was all planned and last week's atrocity was the fuse.

I'm sure what happened last week to the security officers/mercenaries wasn't a first time thing. It was a convenient media release to allow these renewed attacks which were planned ahead of time. These are hot pockets of resistance that simply won't go along with the plan and they needed an excuse to start bombing again. The exploitation of those deaths to create more deaths of people who we are supposed to be "liberating" is insane.

[Judi Lynn]

56. Fighting a bogus war for a bogus pResident. What a shame.

Real people are being slaughtered as others lie about their reasons for starting this cheap, brutal nightmare. Low, dirty, unforgiveable.

[theHandpuppet]

59. Remind me...

... just who the "barbarians" are in this scenario.

"US forces bombed the Goland residential neighbourhood after coming under mortar attack from unknown assailants," Borhan Abed, a resident of the northern Fallujah neighbourhood, told AFP.

Several people were killed, others wounded and some houses hit, said Mr Abed, adding that he went on to the roof of his house when the fighting started and saw US aircraft overhead.

Bombing a residential area? How many innocent Iraqis will die to avenge the death of four American mercenaries? Who the hell are we to claim the high ground? No doubt there will be Americans cheering the dropping of every bomb and every death. You can probably find some of them in Freeperville right now whooping it up.

[leftchick]

69. CNN reporting 5 dead....

It is horrible isn't it? Avenging the deaths of US paid killers.

:puke:

[spinbaby]

58. Did CNN just say one was dead?

I'm half awake here, but I think what's her name just said one was dead in this operation in addition to the one who died in the roadside bomb earlier.

On edit: Yep, she said one was killed in Fallujah this morning.

[Dark]

61. 'cough'Mogadishu'cough'

This doesn't look good. 300,000 Iraqis against 4,000 marines? Not to mention that those asinine zealots are fighting for god and our American soldiers, some of them sick and injured, a few even with mental disorders (terrets), yes, Bu$h is selfish enough to use mentally hadicapped people in the military, who were lied to and bullied, are being shoved into this god-forsaken slum. I just hope that everything turns out alright, though I still have that bad feeling.

[twilight]

62. I have beyond a "bad feeling" about this

I hope to hell they aren't planning to nuke Fallujah! This crime will follow America forever. It will only make things 1,000X worse than they already are. WWIII here we come! :nuke:

4,000 Marines against a population of 300,000? GOOD LUCK is all I can say. There will be deaths a plenty.

You are right, they'll take just about anyone they can get into the military. The dumber the better too. They follow directions and succumb to the authority figures much more easily. They tend to be complacent and idiotic. Oh yeah ... bring 'em on! Bring 'em on!

This whole thing is SICK!

Bu$h*t should be impeached and tried for war crimes!!

Pope John Paul II was right damnit! No one bothered to listen to him!

The acts we are about to witness are the faults of our country and we as American citizens are indeed responsible because we let them steal our country without any resistance ourselves!

DAMN THEM ALL TO HELL WHERE THEY WILL ROT!

:dem: :kick:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

101. I don't think they're THAT stupid

The USA would become isolated to an extent that would make apartheid-time South Africa look like a model world citizen. Worldwide, massive boycott of everything American. In less sympathetic quarters, outright confiscation of American property. They WON'T do this. I bet my left nut on that.

[TankLV]

154. But they will listen to some old fat "celebate" closet cases when it comes

to gay marriage and abortion and family planning - especially looking into Kerry's "record".

My how selective these holier-than-tho-asswipes are!

[progressivebydesign]

136. Which "assinine zealots" are you referring to?

The ones fighting for God? That would be the Bush administration's military, right?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

63. Sounds like a tactic borrowed from the Israelis. Despicable.

[IndianaGreen]

67. Marine officers watched the IDF in Jenin and Ramallah

to "learn" how the Israelis handled the intifada. Someone in the Pentagon knew that we were not going to get flowers in Iraq for long. Our occupation was to be permanent, at least 10 years!

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

66. Pacify the city eh? Does that mean killing everyone in sight?

This ain't going to be pretty.

[Dark]

71. Nah, it means converting them to the Landover Baptist Church

Then they can live out their days in endless ignorance, which, according to the repukes, equals bliss. They can have 2.3 kids, drive one of those suburban tanks, fill it up with oil, and do the patriotic thing and vote for that God-fearing, roughandtough, red american, cowboy G.W. Bush, God's chosen leader for America,(well, the right part anyway.)

[Joanne98]

102. lol good one

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cooley Hurd]

70. Um, nick...

We don't "root" for US casualties here on DU. In fact, there are several DUers who have family members serving in Iraq. Try to keep such comments off this board, okay? :eyes:

[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

77. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

79. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[electricmonk]

78. The average German foot soldier

wanted to be in Russia about as much as the average American soldier wants to be in Iraq in other words not at all. They didn't know why they were sent there other than the propaganda they were force fed but they were both doing what they're fuckhead leaders told them to do.

[Name removed]

91. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[0007]

98. Is your moustache on straight this morning?

[Malva Zebrina]

86. Scott Ritter said on Morning Sedition this morning

that as much as he is biased and loyal to the Marines, having been one himself,he thinks they will lose this. The reason given is because they are an illegal invading force.

[Ripley]

87. Yea! Glad to hear Scott is out there again!

I've been wondering where he was and Blix and Kay and O'Neill and Wilson and geez maybe the gaggle of folks who were right about Iraq and the economy will be seen and heard again.

[Barkley]

103. Thanks Marianne for this post!

I really admire Scott Ritter.

This won't win us many friends or admirers.
We're in a quagmire and can't get out.

The tit-for-tat strategy is a copy of Sharon's
sad legacy and is bound to alienate even more Iraqis
and sharply divide Americans.

We've got poor leadership in America and we're going
to pay for it with our blood and the blood of others.

[JaySherman]

90. Update:

DN reporting 7 Iraqis, 1 Marine.

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=4749740&...

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - A U.S. soldier and a Marine were killed in separate attacks by guerrillas in Iraq, the U.S. army said Monday.

It said the Marine was killed in the tense area west of Baghdad Monday. The soldier was killed by a car bomb in the northern city of Kirkuk Sunday.


http://www.nzherald.co.nz/storydisplay.cfm?reportID=562588&storyID=355...
Violence erupts across Iraq

06.04.2004
12.15am UDPATE

Violence erupts across Iraq

BAGHDAD - US helicopters have blasted targets in Baghdad as a showdown intensifies with radical Shi'ite militiamen challenging America's postwar blueprint for Iraq.

Reuters journalists said they saw two Apache helicopters attacking targets in the mainly Shi'ite Shuala district in the northwest of the city, where a US vehicle was in flames.


http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/3E23D7FF-3065-48E5-9810-BD63DDC...

At least five people have been killed and several others injured after two US Apache helicopters launched an air strike targeting an al-Sadr bureau in al-Shula area of the Iraqi capital, Baghdad.

[demnan]

92. It's time for a massive anti-war protest

that's the most positive thing I can say at this time. :cry:

[IndianaGreen]

93. Aljazeera crew stopped from entering Fallujah

No witnesses!

Aljazeera crew stopped

US occupation forces have prevented Aljazeera's media crew from entering Falluja city.

"We were also prevented from videotaping the area," reported Aljazeera's correspondent.

He added that occupation forces "are based at all gates of the city, preventing citizens from entering or exiting it".

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/3E23D7FF-3065-48E5-9810-BD63DDCB03EA.htm

[Name removed]

95. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[VolcanoJen]

99. That's the scariest part of all.

NPR seems to have an embed with the Marines, but who knows how true that is, or if the reporter will be permitted to speak at all...

[theHandpuppet]

107. Saw clips earlier this morn...

Of our troops next to several Iraqi cars that had been utterly destroyed because people were trying to escape the city. Reporter said they were hit by US rocket fire and the cars were ablaze; no one could have survived. No word on how many people inside the cars were incinerated and blown to bits -- just said they were Fallujans trying to escape the city and any car trying to escape is being destroyed, no questions asked.

Are we claiming the high ground yet?

[On the Road]

122. You're Kidding --

I mean, this is exactly what everyone is so outraged about! An unwarranted, deadly attack on a car full of civilians. And our troops are showing the fatal results to the media? I guess it's OK to kill as long as the bodies are not desecrated.

[theHandpuppet]

127. Nope, I'm afraid it's true...

There's a mention of this in post 117 with a link to the news blurb. The news report is bare-bones sketchy, but the report on TV this morning said several vehicles full of fleeing Fallujans were destroyed. I saw the footage and the only thing left of them were the skeletal chassis. They were hit by rocket fire and whoever was in those vehicles was incinerated.

[On the Road]

142. In Each Case,

a car full of civilians was hit and destroyed, killing all inside, based on the assumption that they were guilty of horrible crimes.

So what is the moral difference here? Other than the fact that the Iraqis at least lived in a beseiged area, and the civilians are part of a military occupation?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

100. Anakyn Skywalker starts his irreversible descent into the Dark Side.

Sorry, just caught SWII:AOTC yesterday on cable. I see parallels.

BTW, Joe Lieberman is Jar Jar Binks.

[Kool Kitty]

137. Don't insult Jar-Jar Binks.

I think he has more credibility and brains than Lieberman. And he's better-looking.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

138. Totally duped by Palpatine. No brains at all.

Although I have to agree with you on the looks department.

[Kool Kitty]

139. I prefer to think that he was too trusting,

not stupid. Naive, perhaps. But not dumb. ;-)

[keithyboy]

104. Using Israeli-like tactics will result in Israeli-like peace: none!

We have begun destroying homes and killing whomever we decide is the enemy. I am not proud to be an American today.

[Aidoneus]

109. Grozny on the Euphrates?

they'll need more than 1,200..

[tlcandie]

111. Given the snip below, I would say that more shock and awe is incoming

since this admin seems to feel that the Iraqis have forgotten who their leaders are...

<snip>
The highly anticipated action, dubbed Operation Valiant Resolve, was expected to be one of the biggest military offensives since the fall of Saddam Hussein's government a year ago.
<snip>

If they are looking at this as one of the biggest military offensives since the fall of the government a year ago, then it will be brutal in visual as well as physical IMO. Most likely all the stops will be pulled out and even these marines might be saddened and shocked beyond belief once it's over and all the dead bodies are lying around where they can visually see the destruction they created.

I just do not understand how human beings can continue to massacre each other and consider it good or as necessary justice. Add to that I do not see how this world can continue, it's becoming one HUGE black sucking hole....an alternative universe that we've been sucked in to!

NOTE: Bold-face type mine for emphasis.

[tlcandie]

112. More links to incoming info from Fallujah....from Electronic Iraq...

Rioters kill 8 U.S. troops

http://www.sunherald.com/mld/thesunherald/8356750.htm

Shia protests spread to Basra



http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3599839.stm



{b]U.S. Forces Seal Off Fallujah

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-3941681,00.html
This article states only 1200 Marines... ?

<snip>
Some 1,200 U.S. Marines and two batallions of Iraqi security forces were poised to enter the city to arrest suspected insurgents, said Lt. James Vanzant, 2nd Batallion, 1st Marine Expeditionary Force. He would not say when the troops would enter the city.
<snip>

8 Americans killed as Iraqi violence surges



http://www.dailybulletin.com/Stories/0,1413,203~21481~2063159,00.html

[Kinkistyle]

128. Viva le Revolution...

Looks like "the mob" is in full frenzy. Religion + alot of angry proles = Heads will roll.

How ironic. So we topple Saddam because he beat down the Shi'ites and now what are we gonna do?

[atreides1]

114. More Like "Operation Lidice"

Many innocent civilians will die in this operation. But om the bright side at least they'll be free(sarcasm)

[leesa]

115. Only "terrorists" target innocent people...right. We are terrorists.

Another idiotic plan to destroy a large number of people to catch one or two who may or may not be involved. DUH!

[milkyway]

116. Some Dems have to lay their asses on the line and speak out

against this NOW! bush* is about to light the fucking fuse and nobody's saying a damn thing that I know of. Whoever has the guts to stand up to this will be vilified for "not supporting the troops while they are in harm's way," but the best way to support the troops is to stop bush* from getting them killed for no good reason. I know it won't be Kerry to stand up to this, but we need a respected Dem to step forward.

[edzontar]

118. Has Kerry said anything yet?

I haven't seen or heard a word.

Bet he won't denounce it.

[IndianaGreen]

119. He is waiting for the focus group

and then he will have Ted Kennedy test the waters.

[edzontar]

120. I hope you are wrong. He used to be a hero. He had kahunes.

We need leadership on the PRESENT situation in Iraq from him....and we need it NOW.

[leftchick]

117. AP Update: U.S., Iraqi Soldiers Surround Fallujah !!

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040405/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_fallujah

<snip>
U.S. troops closed off entrances to Fallujah with earth barricades ahead of the planned operation, code named "Vigilant Resolve." Military patrols entered the outer suburbs on reconnaissance missions and to broadcast warnings on loud speakers to residents to stay indoors until Tuesday.

Iraqi police in the city visited mosques, dropping off Arabic leaflets from the U.S. military, telling residents that there was a daily 7 p.m. to 6 a.m. curfew. It ordered them not to congregate in groups or carry weapons, even if licensed. It instructed people that if U.S. forces enter their homes, they should gather in one room and if they want to talk to the troops to have their hands up.

Some 1,200 U.S. Marines and two battalions of Iraqi security forces were poised to enter the city to arrest suspected insurgents, said Lt. James Vanzant, 2nd Battalion, 1st Marine Expeditionary Force. He would not say when the troops would enter the city.

"The city is surrounded," Vanzant said. "It's an extended operation. We want to make a very precise approach to this. ... We are looking for the bad guys in town."

Marine 1st Lt. Eric Knapp said the troops will target the killers of the four Americans as well as rebels who have attacked U.S. forces and Iraqi police in the past month. "Those people are specially targeted to be captured or killed," he said.

A Marine officer, speaking on condition of anonymity, said U.S. forces had a list of targets for raids. He would not give details.

A witness reported that a U.S. helicopter struck a residential area in the city early Monday, killing five people. The bombing damaged five houses, said the witness, Mohammed Shawkat. There was no immediate U.S. comment on the report.


Another witness, resident Ali Jasim, said there was shooting near one of the U.S. barricades on a road out of Fallujah and some Iraqis who were trying to leave the city were hit. It was unclear whether they were killed or wounded. Roads to a hospital in Fallujah were blocked to all traffic except ambulances.

[Zero Gravitas]

129. Good Luck

They'll need it.

[KansDem]

130. "apprehend those responsible for last week's slayings"

We know who these are, but not where the WMDs are???"

I've got a bad feeling about this. :scared:

[progressivebydesign]

134. I am feeling for the residents there right now...

It must be totally frightening to be in that city now. The infomration I read about the offensive said that citizens were to "remove themselves to one room of the house if the soldiers enter their house", and "put their hands up if they'd like to talk to the soldiers". In other words.. we're going to blast down your doors and start shooting... It's easier to find all the targets if they're in one room I guess.. speeds up the killing. THis should be termed Operation Bloodlust...the interviews with our soldiers over there made much of revenge against the people of this city for the killing of the mercenaries. Media will be barred, of course.. to hide the civilian carnage. Know that photos will get out.. those of families shot to death or hit with rockets... somehow the photos will emerge.

I support our troops, theoretically, because Bush lied to get them there. But this type of carnage makes me ashamed of our military. Bloodlust, indeed.

[DoYouEverWonder]

143. Terrorizing civilian populations is a violation

of international law.

This type of excessive use of force sure qualifies as terrorism in my book. And people say Bu$h shouldn't be compared to Hitler? Don't worry, Bu$h has only been in power for three years. He's just getting started, he'll catch up soon enough.

[Ilsa]

144. ABC News just said the four "Contractors"

were securing the delivery of flatbed trucks, not food.

Why were they telling us they were delivering food for days on end? Can we believe anything the military is instructing the media to say?

[daleo]

145. And what was on those flatbed trucks?

It seems likely that they were delivering something to the marines besides empty trucks - perhaps to be used in the pacification program (which was surely planned all along, even before the 'contractors' were killed).

Anyway, this makes more sense than delivering pizza in an SUV.

[Ilsa]

151. This has to be the fishiest stroy of the year.

Nothing they have said about it makes any sense yet. First they were contractors rebuilding Iraq. Then delivering food. Now delivering nondescript trucks. It's easy to be skeptical of our military's release of information and disinformation.

[The_Casual_Observer]

152. Face it, these "contractors" probably act as goon squads

whose purpose is to intimidate the local populace. Why else would otherwise high profile guys like that be involved other than to get some kicks "kicking some terrorist ass". Why else would they be treated so singularly bad by that very same populace? They were probably well known in that area, so far nothing else makes sense, and nobody is talking.

[TankLV]

155. Careful, the truth will get you many insults from a few posters here.

I know, it happened to me. But I guess he knows better than us "unpatriotic" muricans because as we all know, everyone on this board is sick of us and our attitude and "crap" we've been posting!

I guess just having about 99% of the posts agreeing with us don't count, either!

[The_Casual_Observer]

157. It might be insulting to some, but it probably is true

We live in joyless times, brought on by reckless louts.

[IndianaGreen]

159. I think they were part of a death squad

their civilian cover would give Paul Bremer plausible deniability if they got caught murdering or torturing someone.

[The_Casual_Observer]

161. It HAD to be something like this, since the reaction was

of the crowd was singular. Was the 4th body ever identified?

[IndianaGreen]

162. I don't know about the fourth body..

I thought they were all identified. Perhaps another poster has additional info.

[IndianaGreen]

158. Now that the "food deliveries" cover story is debunked

they now come out with flat bed trucks.

And we continue to believe what we are being told? Why do we have this compulsion to believe the official story?

[daleo]

165. Latest I heard (in the valiant Blackwater merc's save Marine story)

Now they are saying it might have been food, and it might have been kitchen supplies - they just don't know. They take the phase "everything including the kitchen sink" pretty literally when making up stories. And I don't believe the fourth person has been identified yet.

[tlcandie]

156. More updates from Electronic Iraq...

An Iraqi Shi'ite supporter of cleric Moqtada al-Sadr celebrates near a burning US army truck April 5, 2004 in the Shula neighbourhood of Baghdad. The top US administrator in Iraq declared al-Sadr an "outlaw" Monday after his supporters rioted in Baghdad and four other cities in fighting that killed at least 52 Iraqis, eight US troops and a Salvadoran soldier.


An Iraqi Shi'ite youth tests the eyepiece of a rocket propelled grenade launcher in the impoverished Baghdad suburb of Al Sadr City April 5, 2004, a day after clashes in the area cost the lives of seven U.S. soldiers and 28 Iraqis.


U.S. Army soldiers place barbed wire across a street in the impoverished Baghdad suburb of Al Sadr City April 5, 2004.


Supporters of Iraqi Shi'ite cleric Moqtada al-Sadr cheer as they occupy the governor's residence in the southern city of Basra April 5, 2004.

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2004-04/06/content_320834.htm

Fierce clashes across Iraq kill dozens
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2004-04/06/content_320824.htm

Iraqi Judge Issues Warrant for Cleric
http://www.sunherald.com/mld/sunherald/news/columnists/stan_tiner/8362322.htm

[The_Casual_Observer]

160. "U.S. Army soldiers place barbed wire "

The liberators hard at work.