White House: Iraq's Sadr Is Allied with Terrorists

[leftchick]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20040405/ts_nm/iraq_usa_shiites_dc&cid=564&ncid=1480

<snip>
CHARLOTTE, N.C. (Reuters) - The White House accused Iraqi Shi'ite cleric Moqtada al-Sadr of being an ally of "terrorist organizations" on Monday and said the religious leader whose supporters fueled a violent weekend uprising was seeking to undermine the June 30 transfer of sovereignty.

White House spokesman Scott McClellan sought to cast the uprising among Sadr's followers as an isolated development rather than a Shi'ite rebellion with sweeping public support.

"What you're talking about is one individual who is seeking to derail democracy and freedom for the Iraqi people. This is one individual who is seeking to undermine the transition process to sovereignty," McClellan told reporters aboard Air Force One as President Bush (news - web sites) traveled to North Carolina.

"This is an individual, I would remind you, that has pledged solidarity with terrorist organizations, Hamas and Hezbollah."

[el_gato]

1. what a joke

fuck off McClellan, go die in iraq

[skooooo]

4. Damn, I'm having a harder and harder time here.

You know, I didnt support going to war. I want us to get the hell out as soon as we can. That ain't going to happen for another year or two. So what the hell do you suppose we do in the meantime?? Sit around and let militias take over police headquarters?'

I know, I'm going to get bashed for saying this. But honest-to-god people, try to have some kind of reasoned response instead of just being shrill and calling the soldiers "nazis" or something. I consider myself moderately liberal, and some of the rhetoric coming from the left is starting to turn ME off.

[Goldmund]

9. I don't know what you're talking about.

The post you replied to was about McLellan, not about soldiers. One of the reasons the poster was pissed at McLellan is precisely because he is a mouthpiece of the administration that sent all those soldiers there to die.

I don't understand why you're equating shrill language aimed at the administration with shrill language aimed toward soldiers.

Isn't that sentiment at the root of the conservatives' mantra that to support the troops is the same as to support their commander in chief?

[skooooo]

13. Guess I'm reacting to what I'm seeing happen everywhere..

Everyone's getting more and more polarized. At this point, I don't see what good choices we have, that's all.

[Goldmund]

22. Well, since we have an administration that is a...

...criminal band of thugs, what do you expect?

I'm sure that you'll react unfavorably to that characterization as well. But I'm not calling them that because I don't like the way that Bush walks or talks or the way that he does his hair. I call them that because of the compound effect this Administration has on America, and the world.

Enough of trying to muzzle people becaue of some imaginary "civility" of discourse. I absolutely believe in argumentation and fair debate, but I also believe in calling a spade a spade. And if you expect me to respect some royalistic "veneer" of the Presidential Office, I will when that office is not just a tool for the lowest of the low human isnticts -- greed and bloodlust.

[skooooo]

33. Why do you think I support Bush?

See, that's part of what I'm talking about. I DON"T support Bush. Never said I did. So this is all insinuation on your part. I'm saying that there is a certain reality that we have to deal with because of the fact that we're over there, that's all.

[Goldmund]

41. Huh?

Where did I say you supported Bush? Nowhere. That thought never even crossed my mind. What I was reacting to is your "it's getting harder and harder for me here" post, in reaction to the post about McLellan -- you were negatively reacting to somebody's shrill language aimed against the administration.

[skooooo]

47. This is what you said....

"...criminal band of thugs, what do you expect?

I'm sure that you'll react unfavorably to that characterization as well. "

=====

I read this as an assumption on your part that I support Bush, since you seem to think that I would "react unfavorably to that characterization".

[Goldmund]

51. You reacted unfavorably...

...to a similar characterization of McLellan.

I didn't say that to mean that you support Bush, I said that to mean that you were offended at the course language aimed at Bush. Not because you support him, but because you would like to hear a more moderate language, and because extreme characterizations turn you off.

[skooooo]

52. Oh I guess.....maybe.

I don't mind coarse language aimed at Bush.

Maybe I should take some time and gather my thoughts.

[wabeewoman]

63. I've noticed it too shoooo

I think its because everyone is getting to their last nerve. The lies from the administration just go on and on and now the increasing death count from Iraq and watching the situation there deteriorate even more is enough to make my head explode! Then there is the fact that in spite of ALL the things bush has done to destroy this country, the people may elect him to 4 more years. Its frightening, frustrating, disheartening and enraging.

[Dhalgren]

10. There is absolutely no reason for the US to stay

in Iraq for even one additional day. The Iraqis are grown-up, real, live adults and can take care of themselves. We should pay as much reparations as the World Court thinks we should, we should help the new Iraqi government (whatever it is) as much as they will let us and that is it. We need to get out right now, today. Because everyone here, who will be honest, knows that this is not ever going to get any better, and that one day, wehenever we do leave, there will be frantic flights out with people hanging from helicopters! We don't need to wait and kill and be killed until that time. Let's just "cut to the chase" and get out now.

[skooooo]

16. You're right, there is no reason...

...but you know what? We're going to be there another day, another year. That's the reality. So again I ask, what should we do? We have no choice now but to fight these battles, imo. We can't let some mullah's militia start taking over police headquarters.

[Dhalgren]

27. Why not?

[skooooo]

36. Ok..so let me understand...

Your position is to just let the mullah militia go to town, and for us to get the F out of Dodge. Great! I have no problem with that, except for one fact.

WE'RE NOT LEAVING ANYTIME SOON.

And I guess I think it's a bad idea to let them start taking over and getting more power while our soldiers are over there.

[Dhalgren]

50. You see, you say that

we "are not going to leave". And I say that if everyone doesn't start screaming from the tops of their lungs for us to get out, then you are right and we have no right to question our betters.

As far as the police stations go, the stations belong to the Iraqis who live there. We have no right to "let" them do one thing or another. Just because we are committing the biggest, most heinous(sp) crime of this century is no reason for us to compound the crime with new ones. You can say all day that we have to deal with reality, but if we don't fight tooth and nail to change that reality, then we are no better than neocons, ourselves.

[skooooo]

54. ...good points...let me think.

I agree, but I still think that while we're over there we have to protect our own.

So let me think about it.

[atreides1]

57. Reality Check

We're not leaving in a day, we're not leaving in a year, the intent of this administration was to occupy an oil rich Arab country.

Bin Laden predicted this even before 9/11, this administration has been played.

This administration entered into this war with no intent of leaving Iraq, ever. $87 billion was given to the WH last year, supposedly for
body armor and to put more armored Humvees on the ground. Troops rotating out are being told to leave their body armor behind for the troops rotating in, and while some Humvees are being modified, most are still on the assembly line back here in the states.

Add to that the fact that 15% of that money is being paid to private security firms, like Blackwater, who recently lost four of their "contractors".

Also, the oil that has been taken out of Iraq has not been metered. This means that there are no documents to show where it went, who got it, and how much money was paid.

It's there country, what would you do if the roles were reversed, would you listen to foreign invaders, or would you listen to your own leaders, ask yourself that question!

I'm sure the British had the same opinion about the colonists, "We can't let that rabble get away with destroying property(tea)." It's wrong and we have to fight them to teach them a lesson.

Our Founders were the "Mullahs", of their time and they led the US to form a government of the people's choosing not one picked for us by a foreign occupier.

You cannot bring democracy at the point of a bayonet or the barrel of a gun, you cannot force people to accept something that they may not want.

[Bridget Burke]

14. What do you find offensive in this thread?

Who called our soldiers Nazis here? It appears that the White House spin is that "terrorists" are behind the rebellion. Don't you think that some of these people just want the occupation forces out of their country?

Our government is building permanent bases in Iraq. They plan to set up a puppet regime as soon as possible--definitely before the election--but will not relinquish power.

Why doesn't Bush go to the UN (or other international bodies) with hat in hand--and begin planning US withdrawal ASAP? Is it to protect the Iraqis or to protect our geopolitically advantageous foothold in the Middle East? Of course, lots of his contributors are making money, as well.

[skooooo]

18. Ok, to be fair, I'm reacting to a lot of things...

I don't know what the answers are, I just don't think taking a simple minded approach and I do see a lot of BS rhetoric coming from the left. Guess I'm spending too much time at Yahoo.

We're there. That's reality, and we're not leaving tomorrow.

[DBoon]

21. I agree with #14

Apologize to the UN, try to establish a multi-lateral security force, transition ASAP to a new government.

Iraq is sort of like swimming in a shark tank. When your arm is in the shark's mouth, your options are limited. The first instinct is to cry out, "You dummy why are you swimming in the shark tank? Get out immediately" And you say, "I can't, my arm is being chewed off by a shark!"

[skooooo]

42. I agree with this as well.

[markus]

30. Why we *should* be angry at Bremer and Bush

They are responsible for every dead American soldiers, or civilian mercenary, for that matter. We are there for no good reason except Bush*'s desire for revenge, and the warped PNAC Pax Americana.

They will also be responsible for the massive casualties any attempt to "pacify" Fallujah--while minimizing U.S. casualties--will likely entail. I'm not a military person, but I don't know how you root out hundreds if not thousands of armed irregulars in an urban environment with minimal casualties on our side without taking a "kill them all and let God sort 'em out" approach. Why do you think we get *no* information on civilian casualties?

If you agree with that policy, let me ask you this: how many Iraqis equals one U.S. soldier, for the purposes of your calculus? Is killing ten Iraqi non-combatants OK? One hundred? One thousand?

To hell with anyone who places their loyalty to the Bush Administration ahead of their loyalty to the United States. That group, in my view, would include Mr. Bremer.

[skooooo]

40. Christ....! Can't you people get away from binary thinking?

I DON'T support Bush or his policies. I'm looking at the situation, the REALITY as it now stands and I'm asking, what the hell are we supposed to do?? Sit back and let the mullah militias take over the police stations?

That's the question. IT's a bad situation, we're there for the wrong reasons, however, that doesn't erase the reality of the fact that we can't sit around and let the mullah incite violence against us.

Call me crazy, I guess.

[Dhalgren]

53. Why do you believe that we cannot

get out of Iraq quickly. Just wondering. Reality is what we make it - so why is this one so set in stone?

[Joanne98]

32. Nobody called the soldiers Nazis

Where did you get that. Bushco are Nazis. Maybe you're mixed up.

[skooooo]

44. Too much time on Yahoo??

I should have thought before throwing that phrase out, because, you're right, I haven't seen it here. So I apologize for that. Nevertheless, I have some differences with what seems to be the politically correct response to these issues.

These are confusing times.

[Joanne98]

55. They aren't confusing at all. Bush=evil It's that simple

The only thing confusing is getting the evidence that proves whatever the current evil thing is comes from Bushco. That is getting easier lately. The whistleblowers are helping alot. Bless their hearts.

[ChompySnack]

2. This is one individual?

As usual, the big lie. A one person riot and uprising? No, quite the opposite. It is more than one individual in multiple cities causing the biggest problem since the UN HQ bombing.

When, oh when, will we get a White House that doesn't portray a photo-negative of reality to the American public.

[skooooo]

6. Sadr is a religious leader.

And yes, I think one religious leader can sway a relatively large number of people in the Middle East. Not saying there aren't other problems, but you can't totally disregard this fact.

[Occulus]

8. Shoot, that happens *here*.

Pat Robertson.
Jerry Falwell.
shit- "Reverend" Phelps!

The Taliban take their form in this country as the Talibornagain.

[Joanne98]

35. So is Pat Robertson. Why don't we arrest him? He's just bad.

[skooooo]

49. If he incited violence...? should we?

[Joanne98]

56. Who do you think is supplying the arms for the civil war in the Congo?

Where three million people have died. Good ol Pat Robertson that's who. Protecting his diamond mines he stole from the people. But you don't see Pat in trouble for anything do you?

[qanda]

3. Which is why they renamed "Saddam City"

"Sadr City"? :shrug:

[KurtNilsen]

23. They named Saddam City for Sadr city to honour the late Sadr,

who was killed in 99 (I belive) by Saddam Hussein's gunmen.

[IndianaGreen]

39. The Grand Ayatollah Al-Sadr was murdered with two of his sons

Mess with the Shias, and see what happens.

[Dhalgren]

5. How long will these pus-bags be able to play the

"terrorist" card? Good gods, this isn't terrorism, this is a full-blown uprising! These are people - the Shia'a - who will die for their cause by the thousands. Yes they are radicalized, yes they are fanatical, but it is their country, their land, their homes. To try and link this somehow to terrorism is beyond putrid, it is stupidly evil.

[leftofthedial]

7. and so is John Kerry

and Richard Clarke

and the Germans

and the Freedoms, er French

and the people on DU

and Paul O'Neill

and all the liburls.

Who, besides themselves, do they NOT consider a terrorist?

[htuttle]

11. Who do they not consider a terrorist?

Guy Philippe, the F4 commandos, Alpha 66, Louis-Jodel Chamblain, Toto Constant, etc...

I think you get the picture.

[Monkey see Monkey Do]

46. Don't forget Gaddafi -- he's a "Statesman" now! nt

[Jacobin]

12. You forgot the "teachers"

They're all terrorists, too.

[hatrack]

17. Don't forget the NEA!

I just wish teachers didn't wear those black ski masks while walking into school - it's kind of scary for the kids.

[daleo]

15. You knew they would play the terrorist card

They accuse him of being an ally of "terrorist organizations" but don't say which ones, or what it means to be an ally. Just a vague statement to reassure the American public that everything is okey-dokey. As long as they brand all resistance to occupation as terrorism, the occupation becomes the war on terrorism, by definition. A head spinning tautology, but one we will hear more and more as it become clearer and clearer what a farce the original justification of the war was. Look for this to really pick up about the time of Condi's testimony.

[skooooo]

19. He pledged support to Hamas....

[KurtNilsen]

26. He sees himself as constituting Hezbollah and Hamas's Iraqi wing.

[daleo]

31. What has Hamas ever done to the U.S.?

My understanding is that they have kept their operations confined to Israel. Also, what does "pledge support" mean? A general sympathy with Palestinians, or actual material support? If the U.S. is going to arrest every political or religious leader in the middle east that is sympathetic to Palestinians, you better be prepared for a huge draft, and World War III.

You might want to source that claim as well, just for the record.

[IndianaGreen]

34. After Sharon murdered Yassin

Blame the pig Sharon and his bloody occupation of Palestine!

[markses]

62. Well that's the giant elephant in the room, ain't it?

That this thing really got heated up after the IDF greased Yassin, and the Shi'a erupted in outrage then. Of course, nobody wants to say anything of the sort, cuz that would be anti-Semitic or sumpin...:eyes:

[Joanne98]

38. If it wasn't for the greedy settlers Hamas wouldn't even exist.

[Chicago Democrat]

70. Hamas came as a response to occupation and the lack of..

...a real LEGITIMATE government. How long are the Iraqis supposed to passively sit by while the US's hand picked non-democratic lackeys run around with $2000 per day mercenaries meanwhile there is no water or electricity or security for the ordinary people?

It is no surprise that after the US closed his newspaper; his followers would go into the streets. It is no surprise that after Bremmer arrested his aid, crowds would throw rocks at the US tanks. Why did the US and Salvadoran forces open fire on these unarmed demonstators killing 24? Remember the Boston "massacre". Things are getting out of hand because of US mismanagement and provocation.

Really./

[Malva Zebrina]

20. my country's leaders are despicable, evil people

they are consummate liars--and jump on this "terrorist" thing now in the hopes that people will once again believe the war was "just" and the US perfectly honorable in illegally invading Iraq, killing their leaders, converting them to Christianity, and taking their stuff by occupying and killing ten thousand of their innocent civilians. How dare these crazed, wild men try to defend their country and their lives.!!

caller on Airamerica--Unfiltered--freeper just said Iraq harbors terrorists. There ya go-there's your answer-this is the target of the latest accusations of terrorists as far as these Iraq resistors goes.Simplistic, non thinking people who want more and more--they got theirs.

Truck driver - drives seventy hours a week--and hey----He said that he got a tax break and that makes Bush wonderful and the war in Iraq a just one.

Yes indeedy--


Do you think people fantasize being perceived as in the same catagory as the very rich one percent who got significant tax breaks? Sometimes I think they support Bush because it gives them some status they desire-ie they are right up there in that upper crust of society--the rich who of course got rich by not giving any one else a damn thing. I got mine.

[jmcgowanjm]

24. There is a mathematical formula

How many casualties will the US take before we
leave Iraq?

All the Iraqiis know this.

This weekend should've been a Mogadishu moment
for America.

But the USMedia censored the pics.

So now it will escalate to a Beirut moment.

If that doesn't work, a Tet moment.

By then we'll be out of credit, and we'll have bigger
problems somewhere else in the world.

[truthisfreedom]

25. err.. umm... hate allied with hate? circles of hate surround bushco...

hey it's not his fault! vote for him! that will solve it!

[Joanne98]

43. Lol circles of hate, offset circles of prayer

Pray harder you fucking fundies. Bush is going down lol

[IndianaGreen]

28. BULLSHIT!

We are doing to the Shias what Saddam did.

We are the terrorists!

[theHandpuppet]

29. Let me get this straight now...

Our own govt awards big fat contracts to professional military corporations whose "contractors-for-hire" in Iraq include apartheid-era South African Secret Police and ex-Pinochet thugs.

And we accuse others of being aligned with terrorists?

[Fire_Wire]

37. I bet he goes down this week.

[daleo]

45. I bet a lot will go down this week

This will be a bad week for everybody, except perhaps those who are eager to sign up for military duty, and join the war.

[bluedog]

48. the Iraqi people

have spoken.they have chosen their leaders.divide the damn country.let them do it and lets us get the hell out..Looks and sounds like Nam to me.......if we go in and missile strike certain buildings and target people.then I think we act like the sharon from Israel

[fishnfla]

58. Sometimes I almost feel sorry for Scott McClellan

He has to lie so often, and he is so bad at it, that it is embarrassing. He cant help it if he is a shifty-eyed little weasel after all. This weeks TNR had a great piece on how bad his job is and how poorly he does it. He's in way over his head. Perfect spokesman for the chimp, come to think of it.

As far as this Sadr dude, if they arrest him, it will be the final straw in the start of civil war in Iraq

[Cocoa]

59. is he in the deck of cards?

whatever happened to that deck, anyway?

Was that guy that they said wrote that stupid fake letter in the deck of cards?

[leftchick]

60. Update on boy king* speech: Bush Says Sadr Rebellion 'Will Not Stand'

I want to vomit....

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20040405/pl_nm/iraq_usa_bush_dc&cid=615&ncid=1480


Bush vowed the United States would stick to a June 30 deadline for the transfer of Iraqi sovereignty to an interim government. "The date remains firm," he said.

Speaking to reporters after meeting the family of a U.S. soldier slain in Iraq, Bush had strong words for al-Sadr, the religious leader whose supporters fueled a violent weekend uprising.

"In this particular incident with Sadr, this is one person who's deciding that rather than allow democracy to flourish, he's going to exercise force, and we just can't let it stand," Bush said, noting that U.S.-led forces had announced a warrant for his arrest.

"This is a person and followers who are saying: 'We don't want democracy and as a matter of fact we'll decide the course of democracy by the use of force.' And that is the opposite of democracy," he said.

Bush said as the deadline moves closer, it is more likely that U.S. opponents will challenge U.S. resolve. "In other words, it provides a convenient excuse to attack," Bush said.

He had a message for those Iraqis concerned the United States might leave before the country is calm.

"The message to the Iraqi citizens is, they don't have to fear that America will turn and run. And that's an important message for them to hear. If they think that we're not sincere about staying the course, many people will not continue to take the risk toward freedom and democracy."

[wabeewoman]

66. I wonder if bush really doesn't get it....

that 'one person' represents a country of people who do not support our occupation. If you've been reading Riverbend's blog you'll note a distinctive change in tone. If not, go back and read the early posts and compare it to the current ones. To me, she represents the average Iraqi. I understand the argument that the marines have to go in and quell the 'uprising' or they will lose the country. But if they go after al-Sadr many more people will support him. Think of how people supported bush after 9-11. It wasn't because they liked him-it was because he represented our country when it was under attack. What is so infuriating about his " toward freedom and democracy." line is that this started because bush took away their freedom of the press.

[dai]

67. Irony impaired

Bush's quote:

...'we'll decide the course of democracy by the use of force.' And that is the opposite of democracy,"

How is what Sadr is doing different from invading a country and "imposing" democracy?

I mean, doesn't "we'll decide democracy by the use of force" pretty much sum up the neocon vision for the invasion in the first place.

[Yavin4]

61. This Story Sounds Familiar

An occupying force seeks to arrest a religious leader on Passover. Mel Gibson's next movie: "The Passion of al-Sadr".

[IndianaGreen]

65. The murder charges are FALSE - here is the BBC story from 2003

Al-Khoei was not the target, but the other cleric who had been a Saddam supporter.

There was no murder here. The US is lying as usual.

Shia leader murdered in Najaf
Thursday, 10 April, 2003

A senior Shia cleric working with coalition forces has been killed inside a mosque in the Iraqi holy city of Najaf.
Abdul Majid al-Khoei returned to Iraq from exile in London only last week.

He was one of two Muslim leaders hacked to death outside the Ali Mosque, one of the holiest sites for Shia Muslims.

The other was cleric Haider Kelidar, whom according to Arabic satellite channel al-Jazeera, had worked for Saddam Hussein's ministry of religious affairs.

<snip>

He (Khoei) had noticed Mr Kelidar coming under attack by a crowd and gone to help him - but was himself knifed. Both men died.

Other reports said crowds shouted abuse at the clerics, causing Mr Khoei to produce a gun and fire shots.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2936887.stm

[mmm]

68. You are right. Now I remember.

He was in the wrong place at the wrong time and the
crowd hacked him up.

[Mattforclark]

64. There is an old precept which is dangerous to disregard

It goes something like:

"know thy enemy."

The Mattforclark corollary to the 'know thy enemy' doctrine goes something like:

"don't make BS up about thy enemy."

[Magleetis]

69. CBS is reporting

That there has been an arrest warrant issued for Sadr. This has the potential to be very bad.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/02/24/iraq/main541815.shtml

[Moderator]

71. Continue Here

with updated info.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x465513