Pope calls Christians the most persecuted

[NoGOPZone]

Source: Associated Press via Yahoo! News

Pope Benedict XVI says Christians are the religious group that suffers most from persecution.

He expresses his worry in the Vatican's annual World Peace Day message for the new year. He laments that this year was again marked by "terrible acts of violence and religious intolerance."

Benedict said he is especially thinking of Christians in Iraq, where an attack on a Catholic cathedral in Baghdad in October killed two priests and more than 50 other faithful.

The Vatican on Thursday released the message, in which the pope equates lack of religious freedom with threats to world security and peace.


Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101216/ap_on_re_eu/eu_vatican_religious_persecution

[trotsky]

1. ...

:spray:
:rofl:

Give me a freaking break.

[TlalocW]

2. He says he's thinking about the two priests and 50 faithful killed

But he's really pissed off about all the people upset over his pedophile priests.

TlalocW

[Bragi]

3. Do the data bear that out?

I think he may be right, and that statistics would show that Xians are the most persecuted religion.

Anyone know of another religious group they think is more persecuted?

(No agenda here, I'm just religio-curious.)

[QC]

5. Christians are persecuted in much of the world, but there is always a Pavlovian response here

to any mention of Christianity at all, esp. if it also involves the Pope, so you can expect a lot more foaming at the mouth like the above.

In the incident in Baghdad referred to in the article, two priests were beheaded on the altar of the cathedral where they served. This is just one incident in a campaign that has resulted in at least 60% of Iraq's Christians being killed or driven out of the country. Then there are the killings in Pakistan, to say nothing of Sudan and China.

I am not an RC and not a fan of Benny16, but he could well be right about this one.

[yellowcanine]

15. hmm, IMO the Pope's critics have a point here, given Benedict's tepid response to the sexual abuse

scandal, his coddling of holocaust denying Bishop Richard Williamson, and his actions allowing the beatification of Pope Pius XII to move forward, who clearly could have done more to oppose Hitler's persecution of the Jews in Germany. Moral authority does not come by virtue of one's position, it must be earned. There is nothing "Pavlovian" about making that observation. Criticizing the Pope does not equal criticizing Christianity, and neither does opposing the display of creches on courthouse lawns or saying "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas." There are plenty of Christians, including RCs, who are troubled by Benedict's apparent tilt toward the Catholic right wing. Any pronouncements made by the Pope are going to be scrutinized in light of that perception. That is the nature of the beast and probably reason enough for Benedict to resign and make room for a Pope who has a better understanding of church history and more tolerance for other points of view.

[QC]

19. As I said, I am not a Roman Catholic and I am no fan of Benny16. n/t

[nxylas]

16. I think the response comes partly because of the debased definition of "persecuted"...

...put about by some Christians, particularly in America. When American Christians complain of being persecuted, they're usually whining about things like Wal-Mart greeters saying "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas". When you live in the comfortable West and you hear The Pope complaining about Christians being persecuted, it's easy to fall into the trap of believing that's what he's talking about, whereas a more global perspective would take into account the large areas of the world where Christians genuinely are persecuted: executed, imprisoned or otherwised deprived of their human rights because of their faith. I don't feel qualified to say whether they're the *most* persecuted, but to deny that they're persecuted at all shows a blinkered, US/Eurocentric view of the world.

[QC]

20. Exactly, it is a matter of perspective, and both the "War on Christmas" types and

the mouth-foamers on this site make the mistake of thinking that the world is their country writ large.

Being told "happy Holidays" is not persecution. Having armed thugs break into a church during mass and slaughter 50 congregants and behead the priests on the altar is persecution.

[glinda]

38. Especially when they want to persecute everyone else that believes differently.

[QC]

41. Very true. But I do not think that the Chaldean Catholics in Iraq

have been trying to persecute anyone.

Few things are more obscene than people like Pat Robertson claiming to be persecuted, but that is a whole other thing than what is happening to Christians in Iraq, Sudan, China, Pakistan, etc.

[Gemini Cat]

44. +1!!

[rexcat]

36. And during Saddam Hussein rule...

the killing of a christian priest or other christians did not happen. It would seem that after the US started the occupation of Iraq things really got bad for the christians and for everyone else. I am not saying Hussein was a good person but there was more religious freedom during his reign than there is now. Go figure.

The christian persecution thing goes back to the day when Jesus was executed for his crimes against Rome. The persecution card is played way too much by christians, especially in this country. I have had the opportunity to challenge christians when they say they or their children have been persecuted for their religious views. They have always backed down when I have confronted them. Of course if someone questions the christian faith as being valid most christians who I have know consider that "persecution." There seems to be a low bar with this group as to what persecution really is!

[QC]

37. Very true. One more of Bush's gifts to the world. n/t

[Gemini Cat]

43. For fundies, I would suggest a nice trip to Iraq and other places

Since the American fundies are so confused about what is or is not persecution.
They 'feel' persecuted because someone said "happy holidays." They have no idea what real persecution is.

[Angry Dragon]

10. He could be right to a degree

But them you would have to be able to follow his very twisted mind
Is it the religion or the people that rape children and then try to hide them??
I have always felt that if a religion or god could could not stand up to questions and so called attacks was not much of a religion or god. It must be very weak.

And since when does he speak for all Christians??

Their could be a very good case made that Islam is a more persecuted religion around the world.
Compare the attacks in this country, who comes out ahead??

[boppers]

55. Well, in recent history, it wasn't the Christians herded into death camps all over Europe.

I see the pope's 50, or even thousands, and raise him 6 million.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust

[madmom]

4. I have no words...really it left me speechless.

[ejpoeta]

6. when i think back in history, persecuted is not what comes to mind....

persecutors maybe.... think spanish inquisition..... they've been pushing people around for centuries. they show it when instead of protecing their parishoners they protect themselves and the priests that prey on the kids. they are threat to world peace when they go around trying to force their brand of religion on everyone else.

[RZM]

11. He's talking about now, not the 15th century

Who is 'they?' Some Christians? All Christians? Catholics?

He does have a point here. In some countries where Christians are a small minority and religious freedom is a dicey affair, they do face religious persecution.

[ejpoeta]

22. oh please every time i turn around some christian religious group or person is claiming

persecution. if they are being persecuted in countries where they are a minority, i guess this is a good example of the problem with having a religious state. we do not control these countries so we can't force them to accept christians or catholics or anyone else. is it wrong? hell yes. how do you get another country to leave the christians there alone? how do you get countries to leave other religious groups alone?

[RZM]

46. Some of those are not 'religious states,' at least not on paper

The Iraqi Constitution (produced with US guidance) establishes Islam as the state religion, but also 'guarantees' religious freedom. The problem isn't the law itself, but that fact that the law isn't respected or enforced because Iraq still has a very weak government and an underdeveloped civil society.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_Constitution

[NoGOPZone]

25. He's saying that they are the MOST persecuted though

In countries without religous freedom and few Christians, are they treated worse than Jews, Wiccans, Shintoist, or other religons? I don't think that's been demonstrated.

[RZM]

45. Establishing such a hierarchy of persecution would be difficult

It would take a lot of research and even then, the conclusions wouldn't necessarily be accepted by everybody. I don't care if he said most or not, the point is that in some places, it is tough for them, which illustrates the limited reach of liberal (in the old sense) values around the world.

[Jokerman]

7. All depends on how you define "persecution".

Consider this gem from the article:

"Benedict also decries what he calls "sophisticated forms of hostility to religion," including rejection of religious symbols at times in some Western countries."

So rejecting religious symbols is now "persecution" and a form of "hostility to religion".

Nice.

[msongs]

8. the pope's main job is to keep $$ coming in so the vatican won't have to sell its treasures lol nt

[Bragi]

13. Good point

Burning bibles or qurans or the desecration of other "holy" objects may be offensive to some, but it is also protected free speech in America.

I reject the idea that doing this constitutes "persecution."

[mwooldri]

9. Perspective, perspective.

The Pope has a point, and I believe his point is partially valid.

Try standing on a street corner in Riyadh and start reading pages from the Bible. See how long it would happen. Also try hunting down a church in Riyadh.

Then start doing the same in any medium sized US city with the Koran and try finding a mosque.

I only know of one country in the world that is exclusively Christian. Vatican City.

But then the Pope is true because religious tolerance works both ways - other religions are persecuted at the hands of "Christians".

Mark.

[Bragi]

14. Don't agree with the U.S example

You wrote: "Then start doing the same in any medium sized US city with the Koran and try finding a mosque."

Doing so in the U.S would, in principle, be exercising constitutionally-protected free speech.

And finding a Mosque anywhere in the U.S isn't difficult, just check the local telephone company Yellow Pages directory.

But perhaps I misunderstood your point.

[Moonwalk]

21. And yet when Islamics tried to build a community center a block from ground zero...

...and it was called a mosque they couldn't. I agree the degree is different, but it's not so easy for the Islamics to avoid persecution in U.S. cities as you make it sound.

[Bragi]

30. That's politics, not persecution

No-one said that a Mosque could not be built on the site in question. The backers of the project made it into a "Muslim Community Centre" to try to smooth out the politics, not because there was any law that would have prevented them from building a Mosque.

I don't see a strong parallel between this and the actual violence and repression perpetrated against Christians in many countries around the world.

[Moonwalk]

33. You're splitting hairs....

If the "mosque" in question had been a temple or church, it would not have gotten people protesting it to the point of bomb threats. THAT is persecution. It may not have been done by the U.S. government, and the U.S. government can rightly be commended for not having laws to prevent such a place from being built, but these people were singled out and persecuted for their religion--including by politicians, leaders and representatives of the U.S. government who objected to them exercising their rights as U.S. citizens ONLY because of their religion, not because of their politics (i.e. that, say, they were Democrats).

And plenty of different sects of Islam get persecuted for their views and violently blown up, chopped up, etc. in other countries.

So all you've really said is that the U.S. government is more civilized. That doesn't prove that Xtians win the pissing contest of most repressed religion. Nor does it prove that other religions are less civilized. Only that certain parts of the world where such religions currently hold sway are.

[ixion]

12. Oh please...

Not. Even. Close. Bud.

[hunter]

17. He should ask some gay couples what persecution is.

Religious persecution is much like nationalism. It's a battle over turf.

In places where these battles rage people of other faiths and people who are atheists are persecuted too. If more Christians are persecuted overall it's only because there are more Christians.

[and-justice-for-all]

18. bwahahahaha!!!!!!

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

I am sure my reformed Jusuit friend will agree with my sentiment.

[valerief]

23. Oy vey!!!! Spare us your shit, Popey. It's off to Darfur with you!!!! nt

[DirkGently]

24. That's the Pope for ya.

[blackspade]

26. The Pope, as usual, is totally full of crap.

Seriously, who actually thinks this clown is the mouth-piece of the christian god.

[Moonwalk]

27. Talk about playing the "victim" card! So, Xtians are special because...

...they're the most victimized religion? I mean, this is really shameless! He's defined the terms of this "persecution contest" as being about "religion." But as pointed out by others here, if he were to have said that Xtains were the most persecuted "group" then he'd be totally wrong. Compared to women and gays, persecution of Xtians just pales. So he's stacking the deck so that his group gets the "victim" prize by limiting it to "religion."

Women and gays, for certain, are the most brutally and continuously persecuted "groups" of any "group." And they are as brutally persecuted merely for being gay or female by Xtians as by anyone. The very fact that there can't be women priests in Catholicism, and that it's taken till now for the Pope to even consider allowing condoms to protect women from AIDS shows that Catholicism as a religion continues to persecute a particular group even as it decries it's own persecution at the hands of others.

So, on the one hand, I don't think anyone should minimize any group's persecution. It should be illuminated and stopped. On the other hand, I don't think anyone should play the victim card when they've been part of a group that historically and currently is responsible for so much institutionalized persecution. And they really shouldn't do that if, as ruler of the group, they've encouraged it. Let us remember that one Catholic country was considering the death penalty for gays.

If Benedict is so horrified by prejudice and persecution against Xtians, then he should NOT be saying, "We're the most perscuted and therefore get special whining privileges..." He should take this as a holy message to use his power to stop the prejudice endemic in his own faith and, most especially, in himself. This includes his prejudices against religions that he feels are "poaching" away his Xtians (atheists, pagans), and against those who are just trying to live their lives (gays) and those who he views as "unequal" because of their gender (women).

Until he does this, he doesn't get to wave a victim trophy around insisting that he's leader of the most persecuted religion and everyone ought to pity them not criticize them. The crimes of others, even against your particular group, don't excuse your crimes against others.

[Paranoid Pessimist]

28. Those most percecuted Christians are usually those Catholic Priests

who like the diddle the choir boys in the confessional booth. Christians are supposed to forgive these people their trespasses!

[sarcasmo]

29. Delusional.

[bowens43]

31. He has nice hats!! nt

[AndrewP]

32. The Pope is, as usual, full of shit n/t

[Democrats_win]

34. Should the pope be telling lies and spreading propaganda?

Honestly. Christians seem to be doing a lot of persecution themselves. Gays, poor people. (Wall Street which is dominated by "christians" persecutes poor people.) Use that bully pulpit to speak for them. It seems a little self-serving to claim that "christians" are being persecuted.

[Kingofalldems]

35. Christians are severely persecuted in Iraq

Ironically, the people who started that war as a Crusade, don't seem to mind.

[Mad_Dem_X]

39. !

:wow: :wtf:

[Dappleganger]

40. The pope could not possibly give a more inappropriate message during this holiday.

Xmas is supposed to be about PEACE and he is just stirring up the shit.

[DearAbby]

42. +1

Love should have been the message. Loving your neighbor as yourself. Taking care of those who are in need. Forgiving others as you yourself would wish. Message of Peace and love.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

47. yup.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

48. yup.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

49. the poor are the most uniformly persecuted across countries, followed by women and gays

[alp227]

50. well at least he didn't parrot Fox News and include the US

at least from reading this report. I mean we've got atheist bus ads being pulled, no taxpayer funding for abortion, watered-down science education, revisionist history education, millions in wasted tax dollars in abstinence-only education (DOES. NOT. WORK.) etc. etc. etc. cuz of the super-strong conservative Christian lobby in America!

[buckrogers1965]

51. This is how you sell the lies.

You tell people they are being persecuted, then you point them towards the scapegoats you want them to round up and put into death camps.

[lunatica]

52. So the Holocaust was just fun and games?

6 million slaughtered and all was nothing compared to the persecution of Christians? Yeah, dude. Whatever.

Let's not even get into the Inquisition.

[daleo]

53. Not privileging one group's fables over other group's fables

Does not constitute persecution.

"Benedict also criticized what he called "more sophisticated forms of hostility to religion, which, in Western countries, occasionally find expression in a denial of history and the rejection of religious symbols which reflect the identity and the culture of the majority of its citizens.""

In many western countries the majority of citizens are secular, not Christian. Even in the U.S., the majority of the population does not attend a Christian church.

[PufPuf23]

54. Ancient Christian and other pre-Christian sects in Iraq

were collateral damage to the USA decision to invade and occupy Iraq.

Also were many antiquities in some of the most important regions in the history of modern humanity.

The current Pope Benedict is a creep.