(Congresswoman)Gabrielle Giffords shot in head in Tucson

[Ptah]

Source: Tucson Citizen

US Congresswoman Gabby Giffords from Tucson has just been shot point blank in the head on the north side of Tucson. No word on if she survived.

More as it develops…

Read more: http://tucsoncitizen.com/three-sonorans/2011/01/08/gabrielle-giffords-shot-in-head-in-tucson/

[guruoo]

1. That site is busy

[Ptah]

2. Try this one:

http://www.npr.org/2011/01/08/132764367/congresswoman-shot-in-arizona

U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords of Arizona was shot outside a grocery store in Tucson while holding a public event, Arizona Public Media reported Saturday.

Giffords, who was re-elected to her third term in November, was hosting her first "Congress on Your Corner” event at the Safeway in northwest Tucson when a gunman ran up and started shooting. At least five other people, including members of her staff, were hurt, according to Peter Michaels, news director of Arizona Public Media.

Giffords was transported to University Medical Center in Tucson. Her condition was not immediately known.

Michaels said Giffords was talking to a couple when the man ran up, firing indiscriminately, and then ran off. He was tackled by a bystander.

[MH1]

117. Giffords dead, 6 others dead, per NPR

http://www.npr.org/2011/01/08/132764367/congresswoman-shot-in-arizona

[Ozymanithrax]

191. This is called an assassination...

We demand to know who did this and why he did this.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

361. Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, Sarah Palin and the Tea Party did this

[Kurovski]

392. This is Sharron Angle's "remedy" advice, directly taken.

Rep. Gifford's won against a tea bag candidate by 4,000 votes.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

461. she was probably behind it

indirectly

[Devil_Fish]

404. Who and why...

[JudyM]

203. NPR just announced she's still in surgery : 2:46pm n/t

[Indianademocrat91]

283. MSNBC reported she is supposed to pull through

Just reported 5 minutes ago that Rep. Gifford according to doctors at the hospital is supposed to pull through. Please let this be true!!

[Indianademocrat91]

294. A small child is confirmed dead at the hospital

:cry:

[ElsewheresDaughter]

365. and a Fedral Judge was killed too

[N_E_1 for Tennis]

297. On CNN 4:03pm

Doctor says shot in head one time.
responding to commands, outlook optimistic.

All prayers with her and all.

[breadandwine]

522. Video --- hospital update - Giffords expected to pull through.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olRzqPvcetI&feature=player_embedded


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_congresswoman_shot

Giffords had won a narrow victory against a Tea Party candidate. The weapon was a semiautomatic. The health law was a key issue. "Anger over her position became violent at times, with her Tucson office vandalized after the House passed the overhaul last March and someone showing up at a recent gathering with a weapon."

TUCSON, Ariz. – A gunman unloaded a semiautomatic weapon outside a busy supermarket Saturday during a public gathering for Democratic Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, killing Arizona's chief federal judge and five others in an attempted assassination that left Americans questioning whether divisive politics had pushed the suspect over the edge. The shooting targeted Giffords and left the three-term congresswoman in critical condition after a bullet passed through her brain. A shaken President Barack Obama called the attack "a tragedy for our entire country. "Giffords, 40, is a moderate Democrat who narrowly won re-election in November against a tea party candidate who sought to throw her from office over her support of the health care law. Anger over her position became violent at times, with her Tucson office vandalized after the House passed the overhaul last March and someone showing up at a recent gathering with a weapon. Police say the shooter was in custody, and was identified by people familiar with the investigation as Jared Loughner, 22. U.S. officials who provided his name to the AP spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to release it publicly.

The article also said the gunman outlined his political beliefs on the net. One report I saw said he was targetting Giffords specifically and another said an aide of hers was also shot.

I also saw a report that she is responding to commands.

[breadandwine]

528. Gunman on the web ----

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2011-01-08-jared-loughner_N.htm


The gunman allegedly posted this video on his YouTube account ---

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDiq06K5ZA4


Report on the gunman's rambling right wing postings ---

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdrTDiJky5s

[breadandwine]

533. Giffords awake, talking to family ------

http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-tucson-safeway-shooting,0,4466150.story

[X_Digger]

535. Awesome! n/t

[DesertRat]

312. Giffords is alive after surgery. Surgeon is optimistic. n/t

[SeeWGee]

416. This is my first post here. I am so mad.

I am so mad it makes me sick. I lived in AZ for two years, I met Rep Giffords and she was a sweet lady and a caring democrat, a dying breed in AZ. I moved to seattle to get away from those people. I'm so tired of these gun toting lunatics killing people and waving around the flag like being a murder makes them patriots. The britsh are not invading us, the stupid violent right wing youth is. And they are supported by five generations of NRA corruption and repugantcan warmongering.

I signed up here because this is getting out of control. I want to know why my country gets closer every day to darfur or someplace.

I hope she and her family are okay, I hope they nail the guy who did this and anyone who had anything to do with him or his weapon.



-Stan

[DeSwiss]

427. That contradicts the paper in Tucson:

Neurosurgeons at the University Medical Center in Tucson operated on Giffords and doctors were hopeful she would recover, Dr. Peter Rhee said during a news conference at the hospital. Giffords was following commands, a good sign, he said.

http://tucsoncitizen.com/three-sonorans/2011/01/08/gabrielle-giffords-shot-in-head-in-tucson/">Tucson Citizen

[MH1]

504. NPR had posted she'd died, other outlets were reporting it too; then they retracted it

we are very happy that she is alive and has good chance of survival.

However in the medical part of the press conference it was described as a 'devastating injury'. It seems to me we can expect that survival does not necessarily equal full recovery.

[DeSwiss]

521. As Mark Twain said: "rumors of my death are greatly exaggerated." :-/ n/t

[roguevalley]

497. Sarah Palin has blood on her hands and I hope someone puts

her sorry asshole behind bars. 19 shot, six dead with a child. FUCK HER!

[Dennis Donovan]

3. another link:

http://www.kold.com/Global/story.asp?S=13807677

[Rockholm]

4. Absolutely sick.

Nothing on CNN.com or MSNBC.com yet.

[tekisui]

5. Goddamnit. This is awful. Hope she makes it.

[davidhilton]

I just read she had died.

http://www.npr.org/2011/01/08/132764367/congresswoman-shot-in-arizona?ft=1&f=1001&sc=tw&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

[caseymoz]

108. Poor woman.

My sympathies to her and her family. Death was probably a mercy after such a head wound.

[tekisui]

132. So sad, so tragic.

:cry:

[The Backlash Cometh]

6. I want to know who that motherfucker is that killed her. Make sure he's

being watched by reliable people.

What was Giffords working on?

[Ptah]

7. A public 'Congresswoman on the Corner"

[border_town]

11. ???

What does that mean?

[starroute]

12. She was holding a local event to meet with voters

n/t

[ElsewheresDaughter]

368. Tea Party peeps were harrassing and disrupting the meeting at the time of the shooting

[Ptah]

378. 104.1FM, no doubt.

F them f'ers

[LiberalFighter]

All of the Teabaggers attending should be rounded up investigated.

[Tx4obama]

149. Congresswoman on the Corner = the name of the event she was holding. n/t

[Imagevision]

537. K&R!!!

[Alexander]

8. There's no word on whether or not she survived. Let's not bury her just yet.

[The Backlash Cometh]

10. She was shot point blank in the head.

If she comes through this we'll call her superwoman.

[Alexander]

17. People have survived gunshot wounds to the head.

[The Backlash Cometh]

58. So what is your acceptable scenario in all this?

Disfigurement okay? What if she loses some mental capacity?

[Alexander]

62. Spare me your straw men. We have no idea as to the state of her injury.

All I asked is that you wait for a report before pronouncing her dead.

I in no way stated that any of this was or is "acceptable" and you are being dishonest by suggesting that I was.

[The Backlash Cometh]

81. I guess my point is, the line has been crossed.

The only thing I'm holding out for is to find out what motivated the gunman. I don't believe it's random.

[howmad1]

95. God motivated him. Ask Steve King.

[kelly1mm]

381. According to his Facebook ramble, he does not believe in God. nt

[caseymoz]

125. Well, it's happened, and it's probably a mercy.

The prognosis from being shot point blank in the head from a weapon capable of killing so many people is NOT good.

Fortunately, I think now that an actual Congressman/woman has been murdered as the main course of a spree murder, you might see the rest motivated to take their rhetoric and divisiveness more seriously. They might actually think twice about people like Glen Beck. And the public might as well. It will no longer be a matter of just infotainment. That's what I hope.

This is very sad.

[PavePusher]

78. Wow. Jump to conclusions much?

Breath. Wait. Gather actual information.

[The Backlash Cometh]

84. I've been through too many of these to take it lightly.

I only want to make sure the gunman is kept safe from being suicided and to discover what his motivations were.

[PavePusher]

126. I understand that.

But please don't jump all over people who refuse to draw conclusions from zero data, and don't accuse them of ill-intentions when they are trying to be optimistic.

We're all upset about this, let's stay smart and strong.

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

179. It could be

that he's crazy............... :shrug:

[rucognizant]

256. Yeh!

So was David Hinkley...& you can connect his Father's ( TX oilman) Fundi Xtian camp in S America with killer of of John Lennonl wounder of George Wallace.......link to The Fellowship in DC!
You notice they gave Hinkley Jr. unsuperevised visitation to his Parents home in w's 2nd term.....wonder where he is today?

[Crunchy Frog]

547. It could be that he's crazy and unstable

and particularly susceptible to the messages of people like Sarah Palin and Glenn Beck.

[jwirr]

414. Yes, we do not need another Jack Ruby incident,

[boppers]

341. I went to school with Gabby.

She could lose 20% of her brain function and still be the smartest person in the room.

[The Backlash Cometh]

525. Especially in Arizona.

[TheCowsCameHome]

308. Well, isn't that nice?

WTF is wrong with you?

[AtheistCrusader]

61. That could mean a lot of things.

I don't blame you for imagining the worst, but I'm going to hope for the best, maybe an ear or graze or something.

[The Backlash Cometh]

86. I hope you're right.

[AtheistCrusader]

174. I was wrong. :(

Dammit all...

[suston96]

9. Disgraceful! AZ TV stations - nothing on them.....nt

[PavePusher]

80. Which stations are you watching?

It's all over local Tucson stations.

[Joe the Revelator]

13. Faux reporting that no confirmation that she has been shot...

just that she has been injured...that's coming from a reporter on the ground.

[siligut]

113. A reporter on the ground?

Wait. Faux says it might not be so. Hope is in the air.

[PavePusher]

129. There are a number of reporters from different stations there...

and all are saying the same things, i.e. no-one knows anything definitive yet.

Take out your ire on Fox when there is actual evidence to do so, if it turns out that way.

[caseymoz]

128. Oh, how is Murdoch channel ever going to spin this?

I can't wait to see it.

[Divine Discontent]

289. Fake News has no shame. I posted a thread a couple years ago about the calls for violence against

us all, who believed in progressive views.

Here's just some of the violent statements that have been put out to their followers ---



REPOST from my journal -
Wed Aug-13-08 02:43 PM

Just some of the calls for violence against Democrats/Liberals, Gays, Pro-Choice, etc


1. Rush Limbaugh: "I tell people don't kill all the liberals. Leave enough so we can have two on every campus – living fossils – so we will never forget what these people stood for."

2. Senator Phil Gramm: "We're going to keep building the party until we're hunting Democrats with dogs."

3. Rep. James Hansen on Bill Clinton: Get rid of the guy. Impreach him, censure him, assassinate him."

4. John Derbyshire intimated in the National Review that because Chelsea Clinton had "the taint," she should "be killed."

5. Ann Coulter: "We need to execute people like John Walker in order to physically intimidate liberals, by making them realize that they can be killed, too."

6. Ann Coulter: "My only regret with Timothy McVeigh is he did not go to the New York Times building."

7. Bill O'Reilly: "ll those clowns over at the liberal radio network, we could incarcerate them immediately. Will you have that done, please? Send over the FBI and just put them in chains."

8. Clear Channel radio host Glenn Beck said he was "thinking about killing Michael Moore" and pondered whether "I could kill him myself, or if I would need to hire somebody to do it," before concluding: "No, I think I could. I think he could be looking me in the eye, you know, and I could just be choking the life out -- is this wrong?"


That's just SOME of the spewed filth of the hundreds of incidents where they've advocated violence towards liberals/Democrats, and these are just SOME of the better known repubs doing it - there's hundreds smaller swine of the GOP who've said the same.


There's plenty more of them out there, and even if you can just recall the discussion put it on this thread so we can see it as some people 100% don't believe this goes on, even people on this board.

Here's some other hate -

1. Mel Gibson on Frank Rich: "I want to kill him. I want his entrails on a stick. I want to kill his dog."

2. Fresno City Council Member Jerry Duncan in 2003 wrote in an email that police should "Cap" members of the Human Relations Commission and wrote, "If I had one dirty bomb and I could eliminate all the liberals in Fresno at once." When his comments became public, Duncan said "The response I have gotten from the public on this has been 100% supportive."

3. World Socialist newsletter about how "Republican Right prepares for violence"
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2000/nov2000/elec-n24.pdf

4. Shooter/Murderer wanted to "kill liberals who are ruining the country", had books of Hannity and other right wing GOPers who told they were doing such - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Knoxville_Unitarian_U...

5. Right winger backer and often a TV guest, Ted Nugent calling for violence -
http://vyan.blogspot.com/2007/08/nugent-calls-for-viole...
(some info obtained from http://www.preemptivekarma.com/archives/2007/07/dancing... )


Alert | Add to my Journal | Unlock | Remove thread | Unlink | Save | Move | Combine | Recommend +131 votes

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3790402




Some more...

David Fitzsimmons of the Arizona Daily Star just said on CNN that “the right has been stoking the fires of rage and hatred successfully for so long. And what motivated the attack on Gabrielle Giffords, who was a moderate, shows everything that is wrong with politics in this state.” Giffords barely survived a vicious campaign against a Tea Party opponent who held a rally to “shoot a fully automatic M16″ to “get on target” and “remove Gabrielle Giffords.” Giffords was also on Palin’s “target list” of vulnerable Democrats. Palin also stated on her Tweet, "Don't Retreat, Instead - RELOAD".


How many threatening statements are out there that these extremists have made on websites, Fake News Channel, and their radio hate programs? Democrats and liberals rarely, and I emphasize, rarely say or do things like this... We've had some great Democrats and progressives murdered over the decades, and this shocking violence immediately made me wish the victims well, and pray for them, and made me think of this old post of mine, there's hundreds of threats and dozens of attacks against us...

[dipsydoodle]

14. 3 were shot

http://www.kold.com/Global/story.asp?S=13807677

Yes - sickening.

[Lisa0825]

15. She was on Palin's "target map."

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/onpolitics/post/2010/09/palin-targets-health-care-law-supporters-on-site/1
http://www.takebackthe20.com/

Someone seems to have taken Palin literally.

:(

[GreenPartyVoter]

57. Dang, I had forgotten that.

[lapfog_1]

68. folks, you need to follow this link...

Palin puts a bull's-eye on 20 House districts under a headline that reads, "We've diagnosed the problem…Help us prescribe the solution."

It's not taking them literally, it's taking them (Palin, Beck, tea party assholes) EXACTLY as they intended.

What's Sarah's most famous catch phrase they love so much "Don't retreat, RELOAD".

It's all about armed warfare with and intimidation of the majority of Americans.

This is just one MORE in a long sequence now of violence against Democrats, Progressives, safe and legal abortion providers, pacifists.

[caseymoz]

137. Yes, pretty much an ad for some demented, immoral volunteer to kill them.

Here, here's the source of all your problems and of all the evil in the world. If you've got weapons and nothing left to lose, go here.

So now Palin and the rest will disavow their intent and renounce their hitman as an insane loner who just happens to collect battle-ready firearms like a conservative.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

465. Palin and the rest of them should be arrested!

[vanlassie]

146. Just added it to my Facebook Page.

[Tx4obama]

169. Here's a link regarding Palin and her bull's eye

http://www.usatoday.com/communities/onpolitics/post/2010/09/palin-targets-health-care-law-supporters-on-site/1

And...
Palin reloads, aims for Giffords
http://wildcat.arizona.edu/mobile/perspectives/palin-reloads-aims-for-giffords-1.1654164

[PhillySane]

185. Ms. Fucking Guns and Ammo

better own up to this.

[tpsbmam]

302. You're kidding, right? Nevah! Here's her response so far:

Sarah Palin on Saturday, January 8, 2011

My sincere condolences are offered to the family of Rep. Gabrielle Giffords and the other victims of today's tragic shooting in Arizona.

On behalf of Todd and my family, we all pray for the victims and their families, and for peace and justice.

Read more: http://thepage.time.com/2011/01/08/giffords-reax/#ixzz1ATqYV0M0

[PhillySane]

315. Yea, I Know

it's not her fault. And of course, she quickly dashes behind the curtain of religion to protect herself.
Complete hypocrisy.

[tpsbmam]

343. Oh but piety is the sine qua non of Republicanism, doncha know?

You're not supposed to look at the reality behind the false rhetoric. Silly PhillySane. Targeting (literally) Democrats, offing innocent animals for the fun of it, and all of SP's actions and behaviors are right in line with the piety exhibited here. Anything bad that happens (as the result of her behaviors and actions) aren't her fault, they're god's will. Sheesh, you can't diss SP like that PhillySane!

:sarcasm:

Firedoglake nailed it: Metaphor no more.

Oh, and welcome to DU!

:fistbump: :hi:

[PhillySane]

369. Glad to be here!

Palin is a killer. Plain and simple. Whether is be poor defenseless animals or Democrats she likes to put her sick "sights" on. That is a clear sign of her true inner feelings. So don't start bringing the Lord into this Sarah, when your ass is in the hot seat! Man up!

[tpsbmam]

380. Amen!

:evilgrin:

[PhillySane]

395. Take Back the 20 site is offline now!

tried to go there, says unavailable. Either its getting a lot of traffic, or coward Palin can't own up to her own disgraceful actions. Come on Sarah, where's your spine? You opened this can of worms. Put up or shut up!

[tpsbmam]

426. It could be either, though I suspect it's been taken temporarily offline...

it was unavailable when I tried to access it hours ago.

[caseymoz]

193. I'd say Palin's career might be over.

One good thing that might come of this.

[madinmaryland]

76. Is there a way to cache a web site, in case they decide to delete the site

due to its nature?

[Goldom]

102. For a single page

You can just go to file>save page as. It'll make an html file and then a folder that has to go with it.

For entire websites, it's a lot more complicated, and can't be done within your browser.

[boppers]

345. Internet archive.

http://archive.org

[madinmaryland]

367. Cool. Thanks!

[SpiralHawk]

85. Palin had 'targeted' her - and encouraged her followers to aim at the target...?

that totally sucks -- gives Republicon values a whole uglier side...

[WinkyDink]

93. I have NO DOUBT.

[MrMickeysMom]

170. Included among Palin's Democratic targets...

(she is quoted as wanting North Dakota's at-large Rep. Earl Pomeroy, Southeast Arizona Rep. Gabrielle Giffords and Virginia Rep. Tom Perriello.)
Reference: http://content.usatoday.com/communities/onpolitics/post/2010/09/palin-targets-health-care-law-supporters-on-site/1

"Join me in standing against those who stood with Obama and Pelosi in voting for this disastrous bill," Palin writes on the site. "Let's replace them with good conservatives who will vote to repeal and replace Obamacare."

So, you see sister Sarah? When you combine dangerously stupid with impressionable stupid you get some young guy with a gun to do the work for you...

You piece of shit.

Edit: added reference, I still think SP is a fucking piece of shit who should be linked to this assassination.

[eppur_se_muova]

175. So, when will Palin be charged for inciting violence and murder?

If the producers of a movie can be charge when someone imitates a scene from the movie, hothead wingers who call for violence should be even more culpable.

[DissedByBush]

400. Apparently shot by a leftist, Jared Lee Loughner

It's over on the front page of Kos.

It appears he's a far-left type, probably shot her and the judge because they weren't left enough for him.

Wackos are wackos, regardless of their political leaning.

[grahamhgreen]

210. Shocking graphic (Pic), can you repost as an OP?

Or may I? Everyone needs to see the graphic with the gunsites.

These people are inciting violence, and it must stop.




CACHED - http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:koF70deULPgJ:www.takebackthe20.com/+take+back+the+20&cd=8&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:fbAiPed1ZVAJ:www.takebackthe20.com/candidates+http://www.takebackthe20.com/candidates&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a

Originals - http://www.takebackthe20.com/


http://www.takebackthe20.com/candidates

[stockholmer]

222. threat on Giffords from a campaign event message board

While there is no hard evidence at this point to suggest that the shooting was politically motivated, Matt Yglesias points out that an anti-Giffords event was held in June with the billing: "Get on Target for Victory in November. Help remove Gabrielle Giffords from office. Shoot a fully automatic M16 with Jesse Kelly."

http://twitter.com/mattyglesias/status/23817848610627584

http://topsy.com/www.blogforarizona.com/blog/2010/06/jesse-kelly-event-is-this-wording-intentional.html

[grahamhgreen]

235. That is outrageous. Perhaps Obama needs to appoint some Progressive Federal prosecutors.

[Chakab]

240. Even if he decided to appoint any real

Progressives, they'd get held up for confirmation in the Senate.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

382. the gunman killed a Federal Judge too

[zalinda]

260. The website has been scrubbed. n/t

[grahamhgreen]

347. Why would thye take it down if they felt they were innocent?

I hope we prosecute this, or at least investigate - they are playing extreme RW hardball, rolling over on this will encourage more of the same.

[harun]

267. Save it off, they'll be cleaning this. (Edited to inclued image)

Here's a link to one:



I saved it and will post it if this disappears.

[grahamhgreen]

350. This is damning.

I've saved it as well.

I suggest we re-post as OP's, everyone needs to see this.

[harun]

495. Yes they do!

[james0tucson]

373. 20 years in a supermax:

Palin should face 20 years for her role in this assassination.
18 USC Part I Ch 115 Sec 2385

[Catherina]

"Oops! Internet Explorer could not find www.takebackthe20.com"

How recently ago did you see it? It is worrisome that "Internet Explorer could not find www.takebackthe20.com" this soon.

[grahamhgreen]

539. They scrubbed it.

I posted about 4pm EST, Sat, 1/9 I think...

[Catherina]

542. What's bizarre is that even google cache was scrubbed. There was nothing there.

I believe you but I'm perplexed about the cache being gone so quickly.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

469. they should be arrested

[spotbird]

226. Bet you a dollar that we'll be among the

few Americans who are reminded of these thinly veiled calls for violence by the extremest right.

This is exactly what the Tea Party was invented to accomplish, but they thought there'd be more and it would happen sooner.

[RSillsbee]

475. But it appears that the shooter was an extreme leftist NT

[spotbird]

480. Based on the fake Facebook accounts?

Or is there a real indication?

[harun]

265. Wow, could this be the start of the Left vs. Right wars?

[newspeak]

278. actually it will be the ignorantly duped funded by corporations and wealthy

against the rest of us plebes.

[harun]

281. Correct, it hasn't been R vs. L for a long time.

[Incitatus]

290. That second link seems to have been taken down. nt

[tpsbmam]

305. Posted to facebook with a whole lot of really pissed off commentary from me. nt

[leftieNanner]

415. On Palin's Target List

It's time to go to the courts for some remedies here. Sarah
has a few bucks in the bank now. Let's see a lawsuit come from
Gabby's family, or the Judge's, or the 9 year old's. Sarah,
Glen, Rush, and all of them need to be held accountable!

[Exultant Democracy]

16. This is so sad.I got to know her and her staff after the 2006 election they are all in my thoughts

I'm just heart sick over this. Grijalva better get some serious protection, if Gabby was in danger, then we have to assume he is a marked man too.

[TheOther95Percent]

18. Congresswoman Giffords Shot (D-AZ)

Source: NPR

Looking for more news on her condition.

Read more: http://www.npr.org/2011/01/08/132764367/congresswoman-shot-in-arizona?ft=3&f=1003,1004,1007,1013,1014,1017,1019,1128

[XanaDUer]

19. Holy shit.

Prayers out to her and her staff and everyone hurt. Well, this should be interesting.

[slay]

20. MSNBC is covering it right now

so is ABC.

[beyurslf]

21. Craziness!

[ailsagirl]

307. Insanity-- what has happened to our country????

:grouphug:

[lastone]

22. Gabrielle Giffords Shot: Congresswoman Reportedly Shot In Arizona

Source: Huffington Post

Gabrielle Giffords, a Democratic congresswoman from Arizona, was shot today, according to NPR.

Read more: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/08/gabrielle-giffords-shot-c_n_806211.html

---

Not much more info available yet...

[warrior1]

23. dup look up

[tabatha]

24. On Breaking News Twitter:

JesseRodriguez From KPNX RT @brahmresnik: Dem Party in Tucson saying Giffords taken to hospital, 5 others also shot. Shooter apparently in custody.

http://twitter.com/breakingnews

[dkf]

27. Shooter in custody? Why no better description than he was a male?

[Tansy_Gold]

63. MAYBE THAT'S ALL THEY KNOW AT THIS TIME. n/t

[tabatha]

67. Because it is 140 characters on Twitter.

[Schema Thing]

74. wtf? get some perspective dude.

[ehrnst]

103. 4 confirmed dead. (nt)

[IScreamSundays]

25. Point blank in the head

doesn't sound survivable

[tabatha]

26. I guess she is in surgery right now -

hence no updates on her condition.

[boppers]

349. point blank in the head is survivable

Depends on the round, angle, etc.

[Hello_Kitty]

28. Oh my god.

:cry:

[SoCalNative]

29. Who will be surprised

when it's revealed the shooter is a proud teabagger? Not I.

[XanaDUer]

36. Nor, I.

And, ten to one, he is on some type of entitlement program.

[tsuki]

120. The AZ Tea Party Leader: Giffords is Toast.. nt

[quakerboy]

213. Link on that, please

Thats the kind of thing that needs to be remembered, assuming you are reporting a fact not a conjecture. Granted it would be a fair assertion given the kind of people we are dealing with, but at times like these, separating the two seems important.

[AtheistCrusader]

242. It's from earlier this year.

http://www.news1130.com/article/print/38895

[Wednesdays]

333. OMFG. That's damning.

Unfortunately, in this Survivor/Dancing with the Stars/American Idol-steeped ignorant country, that'll just rate as a ho-hum.

[AtheistCrusader]

388. Well, that is out of context. The full paragraph certainly indicates nothing sinister.

"Giffords is toast," said Tucson tea party leader Trent Humphries. "She's going to have a lot of problems, especially since she has some really good candidates running against her."

[tsuki]

277. Video

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40978517/ns/politics/

[tsuki]

285. Here's one from the campaign via Matt Yglesias

"Help remove Gabrille Giffords from office. Shoot a fully automatic M16 with Jesse Kelly" date 6/12/10 http://twitter.com/mattyglesias/status/23817848610627584

[PavePusher]

442. And that is indicative of what, exactly? n/t

[barbtries]

474. so this jesse kelly

actually held a campaign event in which attendees were invited to shoot fully automatic M16's? and this is good for the country how? insane.

[PavePusher]

440. Out of context, much? n/t

[Kievan Rus]

366. Just like the cop-killer in Pittsburgh was

I'm from Pittsburgh and I distinctly remember that morning. As soon as a whackjob friend of Poplawski (the shooter) mentioned something about a non-existant "Obama gun ban," I knew the shooter was a wingnut. And I was absolutely right.

I won't be shocked if this guy is a wingnut too.

[Richard D]

30. Fuck.

She seems a good one.

in the comment section someone said she was shot point blank in the head. I hope that's not true.

[deminks]

31. MSNBC breaking in now. 5 members of her staff hurt including Ms. Giffords also.

Shooter caught at the event.

[endless october]

32. prayers for the wounded.

[still_one]

33. Reports indicate she was shot point blank in the head. Does not sound good

[GreenPartyVoter]

34. Oh my gosh!!

[beyurslf]

35. Local station is saying it is unclear if she was shot but she was injured.

<http://www.kold.com/Global/story.asp?S=13807677>

[harvey007]

37. Congresswoman Shot In Arizona

Source: NPR

U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords of Arizona was shot outside a grocery store in Tucson while holding a public event, an eyewitness reported Saturday.

Giffords, who was re-elected to her third term in November, was hosting her first "Congress on Your Corner” event at the Safeway in northwest Tucson when a gunman ran up and started shooting. At least five other people, including members of her staff, were hurt, according to Peter Michaels, news director of Arizona Public Media.

Giffords was transported to University Medical Center in Tucson. Her condition was not immediately known.

Michaels said Giffords was talking to a couple when the man ran up, firing indiscriminately, and then ran off. He was tackled by a bystander and presumably taken into custody.

Read more: http://www.npr.org/2011/01/08/132764367/congresswoman-shot-in-arizona

[OregonBlue]

38. What are the chances this was a Glenn Beck fan?

[tsuki]

124. Well, it looks like Rupert Roo may have another scalp. nt

[RSillsbee]

477. It appears that the shooter was an extreme leftist NT

[X_Digger]

487. Looks like he was all over the spectrum..

Faux is using the 'selective observation' fallacy to peg him one way, many here are using the same fallacy to peg him another.

I'd go so far as to say his opinions appear to be far from the mainstream of either major political party.

[RSillsbee]

540. My concern in all of this

Is that people will focus on the tool instead of the criminal behavior

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BrklynLiberal]

40. "Second Amendment Remedies"....spreading from Nevada to Arizona.

[Tippy]

41. 5 others shot too.....

A gunman opened fire, shooting U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords and at least five other people.

[Ptah]

42. Local NPR (KUAT/KUAZ) says 7 shot, two dead

[alittlelark]

43. Apparently shot point blank in the head?

That was a headline I just saw.

[tabatha]

44. Yes, here

http://twitter.com/The_Gambit

[harvey007]

45. Tucson TV report

No details yet. Can someone in Arizona tell us what is going on?

http://www.kold.com/Global/story.asp?S=13807677

[Ptah]

46. Local NPR (KUAT/KUAZ) says 7 shot, two dead

[ChazII]

50. No more details on her condition but

the radio news said up to 15 people hurt and this was an event hosted by Gifford.

[lynne]

47. Absolutely horrible . . . . . . n/t

[lapfog_1]

48. I met Gabrielle at a town hall meeting (she did one on ones instead of big audience thing)

the one where the tea party assholes showed up and a gun fell out of one idiots pants pocket and landed on the floor. That made the news back then. This was at a Safeway in Douglas, AZ. I thought then that the level of hate these people had for her and any of her supporters was going to lead to something someday. This is just so sad to hear. She was very nice to me and I visited her office later for more information and they were all so helpful.

Crap.

[PavePusher]

110. I went to one of her events once.

I open carry in a retention holster. No problems.

[Confusious]

49. She's my Rep

Freaky. Too shocked to say much else.

[TeaBagsAreForCups]

51. Looking forward to learning his moniker at the cesspool...

... The "Free" Republic.

RimJob will be establishing a memorial contribution account in his name during the current FReepathon.

"Woo hoo!"

[harvey007]

52. CNN reporting 12 shot

I hope they get the f*cking coward who did this.

[Arkana]

72. They did.

Someone tackled the gunman as he tried to get away and he's in custody.

[Mr. Sparkle]

53. It is time to put the right wing media on trial, imo.

and lock that nut job up and throw away the key.

[Cleita]

54. Apparently, she's a Blue Dog Democrat according to

wikipedia. I hope it's not one of ours who did this. I think Arizona has enough right wing wackos to do this though and having leadership like Gov. Jan Brewer probably makes them bolder in doing crazy and destructive things like this.

[dkf]

56. Could be anyone.

For all we know the Mexican drug thing is crossing the border.

[Mz Pip]

70. True

Lots of haters out there and they hate for lots of different reasons. It could be one of any variety of whackjob. We'll know soon enough.

Right now I'm just hoping for the survival of the congresswoman and all the others who were wounded.

[timo]

97. i was thinking the same thing

but i dont think the risk to gain ratio is right for the cartels to bother...I might be wrong but they seem to be loathe to really get things stirred up on this side just yet...

[chrisa]

189. If it was the cartels, I promise that the vultures for the rest of the year will not go hungry.

That's why I doubt they would try such a thing.

This seems like the act of a right wing wacko.

[ChazII]

112. KTAR 92.3 has interrupted

regular broadcasting and is covering the shooting and what happened. They are saying she is one of four who were fatally wounded.

[Whoa_Nelly]

268. The Tea Party in Tucson is pretty big (this is my town, my local personal area where this happened)

Jesse Kelly, running against Giffords, spoke as a Beck dittohead all along throughout that campaign in November.

All of Giffords' campaign signs were obscured by hate rhetoric signs everywhere.

Hate Radio and all other dittoheads need to be stopped. There is Free Speech, but there is already law that defines hate speeach...these asswipes need to be nailed.

Am deeply affected by all this right now...this is my home, this is my stopming ground..this is my representative.

[DeadEyeDyck]

270. I just reviewed her voting record. She is very Blue-Dog...

She is more Right than many Repugs.

But this is also the land of drug cartels.

[Wednesdays]

338. Ah, so THAT'S what the Faux Lies spin on it will be

Thanks for the heads-up.

[jwirr]

421. Many teabaggers are too stupid to know what she votes like. They

just know she is a Democrat.

[pam4water]

55. I guess her opponent last fall was in the tea party. See looks young for congressman.

"In November, Giffords defeated Republican Jesse Kelly to win her third term. Kelly mounted a strong challenge with the help of activists in the small-government Tea Party movement. Giffords' margin of victory was just slightly more than 1 percentage point."



http://content.usatoday.com/communities/onpolitics/post/2011/01/democrat-cut-congress-pay/1

[MadMaddie]

88. She is 40 years old

I hope she survives.

[erodriguez]

79. She was on Sarah Palin's "Don't retreat, reload" hit list

[Kali]

135. THIS

needs to be shown all over the fucking place!

[zogtheobvious]

257. agreed

I agree - and it needs to be shown along with this:

[Hatalles]

209. Wow.

...

[james0tucson]

218. Palin, Accessory.

I hope Sarah Palin is forced to account for this in stark terms of her being an accessory in an assassination.
What I mean by that, is Sarah Palin facing a death penalty for a capital crime due to her direct involvement in the assassination of an elected official.

[astroBspacedog]

247. I hope she gets her ass sued

of every dime she she makes from here to eternity.

FUCK YOU SARA !!!!!

sorry, ---- just had to cut loose, ---- time to take my dog for a hike and cool down.

[aquart]

59. This was an assassination attempt?

Because this is insane Arizona. Where they kill their own.

[beyurslf]

60. Local news says she was injured but it is unclear if she was shot.

I am not sure I would go by a Twitter post saying she was shot point blank in the head.

<http://www.kold.com/Global/story.asp?S=13807677>

[MineralMan]

71. Early reports on this sort of thing are notoriously inaccurate.

Usually, it takes about an hour before what actually happened is available. In the meantime, we have to wait and see what actually did happen. I used to jump all over these reports, but I've learned to wait before saying too much.

The biggest problem, for me, is that there are half a dozen active threads already on this...all of them all over the place with facts, rumors, and other stuff. It's hard to find the truth in all of that.

[madmax]

64. Unbelievable. Maybe not.

This polarization of our government has got to STOP. Republicans must speak out and heard the crazies into mental hospitals to seek help.

Granted we don't everything yet but, I'll bet this is some wingnut.

NO GUNS near our President as have been in the past. Take your Second Amendment Right and shove it up your ass!

[AngryAmish]

65. It's a teabagger

Bet on it.

[feslen]

89. prayers to all those innocent good folk involved

100% accurate its one of Palin's minions who did this. (no need for "facts") as this is a hateful crime which that shooter I am sure is proud of.

[beyurslf]

66. Streaming video from local station at the scene

<http://www.kold.com/global/video/flash/popupplayer.asp?vt1=l&d1=0&ClipId1=mms%3A//a1925.l2053733750.c20537.n.lm.akamaistream.net/D/1925/20537/v0001/reflector%3A33750&LiveURI=mms%3A//a1925.l2053733750.c20537.n.lm.akamaistream.net/D/1925/20537/v0001/reflector%3A33750&h1=KOLD%20live%20stream&at1=News&LiveURITitle=KOLD%20live%20stream&LaunchPageAdTag=News&fvCatNo=undefined&secure=undefined&akPort=undefined&akProfile=undefined&rnd=86889839>

[MineralMan]

82. Thanks! Finally I can get something to follow on this.

Thumbs up!

[Whoa_Nelly]

69. This is about 3 minutes from me...I shop there. Am watching CNN now.

I hope all are okay. During election time, there were all sorts of hate signs posted always in front of her re-election campaign signs.

[AC_Mem]

73. Praying for all involved

My heart is broken for everyone touched by this horrible event.

What has happened to our country? I am praying for the best possible outcome. My God, what is happening to us and when is somebody going to stop this madness?

Weeping,
Annette

[Odin2005]

75. Good God!

[No Passaran]

77. Sarah Palin's bullseye map? Congresswo­man Giffords was on it n/t

[sakabatou]

83. Yikes

[TeaBagsAreForCups]

87. Can't wait for the Tweet from Wasilla on this one! ...

... I doubt it will it admit that Palin should hang her god damn head in shame as a vile excuse for a human being.

[JohnnyRingo]

321. I'm betting she'll give a general statement....

saying she's opposed to this kind of violence on both sides.

[No Passaran]

90. #4 on her map. I'm sick to my stomach

[felix_numinous]

148. Palin's map needs to be front page nt

[zogtheobvious]

269. And this, from her opponent in the election-

[JenniferJuniper]

445. From USA Today in September

"In a website launched on Thursday, the six-month anniversary of the health care law, Palin puts a bull's-eye on 20 House districts under a headline that reads, 'We've diagnosed the problem…Help us prescribe the solution.'"

Giffords was one of the 20 in the bullseye.

[beyurslf]

91. KOLD just reported that the AP has confirmed she was shot in the head.

No word on her condition.

[ehrnst]

100. NPR says she died.

[greatauntoftriplets]

92. That;s absolutely horrible.

NPR has been following her Congressional career and she's quite impressive.

:cry:

[alp227]

94. and i just heard on NPR right before wait wait don't tell me she's died n/t

[Kali]

111. oh fuck

no

[alp227]

352. but now apparently she's actually gone through surgery

and is in critical condition, and someone named Jared Laughner got arrested, i'm listening to All Things Considered online right now

[truth2power]

118. Ptah's second link above says she died. They probably updated the original. n/t

[dipsydoodle]

96. ABC - as many as 12 people wounded

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/rep-gabrielle-giffords-shot-grocery-store-event/story?id=12571452

[bigworld]

104. members of her staff shot as well

says BBC. If this isn't purely political, I'll be very surprised.

This was an assassination.

[Kali]

98. OMG I just got an e-mail about this - wasn't on DU

came to look

WTF?

[caseymoz]

99. The same idiot state that allowed a guy to carry a rifle at an Obama rally.

This is why guns are not to be considered expressions of one's right to free speech.

I hate to point this out during this horrifying tragedy, but it's the first thing that came into my mind.

[PavePusher]

134. I've carried guns to plenty of political events.

And that had absolutely nothing to do with a crazed man running up to an event and shooting people.

[caseymoz]

190. Well, how different would this scenario have been without the gun?

I'm thinking the congresswoman and at least several others would still be alive if the guy wasn't armed inappropriately for the occasion. That has something to do with it.

And I'm thinking: you weren't brandishing and flourishing the gun, and perhaps it wasn't a rifle-- a bit more low-key, am I right? Slightly off topic, but you weren't making a threat of murder to prove that you were "serious" about your political statement, were you?

Guns are tools. They kill people and animals, just as hammers drive nails. You take them to an inappropriate place, it's either 1) because you're an idiot, 2) because you're paranoid, 3) because you think you're skilled enough to defend yourself in a crowd without hitting the innocent bystanders (see 1), 4) because you want to threaten, 5) because you want to kill, or 6) more than one of the above.

Period. End of story. Let the gun lunacy stop, now.

[PavePusher]

201. Your train of thought is off-track.

In the worst kind of irony, the man was armed appropriately for his occasion. The point is that his purpose was vile and despicable, his choice of tool was essentially irrelevent.

I carry everywhere I am legally allowed. I usually open carry because it is more comfortable. I do nothing to draw attention to myself or brandish or flourish. At what point am I "inappropriate", an "idiot", "paranoid", "threatening", or "want to kill"?

I suggest if you want to continue this sidebar that we take it to the Guns forum, I'll be happy to meet you there.

[caseymoz]

229. You don't bring a pistol into a crowd of people.

Nor especially to a political rally. I don't care how pure your intentions are. I don't care if you're licensed. It's irresponsible, and they even knew that in the Wild West, where you checked your guns when you entered the town, it was common sense. At what point did we become so dumb? Is it industrial pollutants?

What if this person had a license, he was carrying as innocently as you, and all of a sudden, he just got so angry? If he hadn't had the gun, he would have had the chance to think again, or the moment could pass. You could have a bad moment, too.

While you're carrying the gun into a crowd, also drive drunk. You know how to do it responsibly. Hell, why don't even rally for the right to it?

And I'll connect back and say, you're only slightly better than the person who carries the gun to the rally with ill intentions. With you, it's that something could go wrong. Even if you have great intentions, if you wear it in the open in a crowd, somebody could take it off you.

PS. I was right, you weren't brandishing or flourishing it, then, like the guy at the Obama rally. Thank you for showing that you have a little common sense, unlike the state of Arizona.

Maybe I'll show up at the Guns Forum. Depends on if you answer, but I think I'm out of posting time today. Maybe tomorrow.

[boppers]

363. She had a pistol, as well,

She didn't have time to draw it.

[caseymoz]

523. And how would she? They say there's two kinds of people in a gunfight

Those who knew beforehand that there's going to be a gunfight, and those who don't. If you don't know, you lose almost every time. If your surprised and your armed, you won't have time to draw. It just happens that quick. See what good it did her?

And what if it had happened slower, if she had a chance to draw, nervously, and say wounded or killed several other people? In a civilian gunfight, it's hard to aim under that kind of pressure when your life is already on the line. Hands tend to get shaky, you could practice at a range all you want, but it still doesn't prepare you. Only being a soldier, or surviving a gun battle prepares you.

Carrying a gun for general safety is a stupid myth, that is, unless you know there's going to be a gunfight. So, I think she was dumb for carrying a gun in the crowd, too. Poor lady, sorry to say that.

Would be interesting to see if she does it after this.

[Katya Mullethov]

387. The headless armless fellow wasnt brandishing either

It was slung over his back . I look forward to the witty reparte .

[caseymoz]

532. I don't quite know how you carry an assault rifle and not look like your brandishing.

I guess technically, it wasn't quite a brandish. Looking at the picture, I think he could get it ready to use in a few seconds. Doesn't that count for something? And if he couldn't, I fail to see what point he was trying to make. Maybe guns are suppose to communicate messages now, I mean, since everybody says they don't kill people, I assume that as tools, they have some other function. But I just don't have the vocabulary to understand what that gun was saying. If the point were to give a "message" why not mock-up?

I don't know what you mean by headless and armless. The news didn't mention that, and in the picture I've found, he doesn't look like he's wearing prosthetics.

In other words, I don't understand your witty reparte. First rule of it is to be clear.

[Katya Mullethov]

543. Vocabulary is not a problem

It is merely a matter of perception


Growing up in rural South Texas and having just caught the tail end of the ward schools , an image like this says to me.
"You've come a long long long long long way baby ! " He is a full citizen and is not required to mock up or shut up anymore .

And seeing as how the black folks weren't even allowed in the Mexican ward schools where they were shitting in a box (1) not 30 feet from a sewer main* , I see his photo and can't help but grin . He is a citizen like me , I wouldn't shoot me . Neither will he . So I grin . To immediately assume otherwise is irrational and illogical but justifiable bigotry to me . Even if he were an avowed "Maoist Fuckstick" , intent that we only need 100 million people to run this country so "a few" (2) will have to go . I would still grin as we are still truly free . Imagine if he were to do that in Progesso even before La Violencia .

Here is one not 500 yards from my house , in the right foreground . Our glazier now lives in the white high school in the background . 4 rows of brick , 15 foot ceilings and his wife is completely enamored with it . Ironically enough they are Hispanic and had no idea about "the rest of the story" until I filled them in . It got a little misty , but I dont think they noticed as I pretended to sneeze .



But if you crop his head from a photo taken from an angle where his hands are obscured , and then blink the photo on the boob toob while basting it with breathless innuendo

Many will see "Racists hate black president" as they were supposed to .
Many saw through it immediately , but the media kept at it for a few days until it started producing a little pain .


footnotes and corrections
(1) I have photos of said shitter and sewer main as well ,if need be . It is completely full so I have to make two corrections ,as they were shitting on the ground and it should read headless and HANDLESS man .
(2) I don't grin long , especially if it turns into "kill they babies"

As this has ended up in the backwaters of yet another massive moral panic thread , it has earned it's own place in The Gungeon .
We have steaming pigs ! And our carving style is well rehearsed .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cw05xgp5Gw8

[caseymoz]

546. I guess it's an indication, but why is it a victory here?

To carry a gun the way most black male does in the Congo? That bastion of gun liberty where every black male has a right to carry guns, (not true for black women) and where they seem to be terribly available? And guess what? It seems that other liberties are not well protected there.

Now, you might try to call me a racist for making that point with the Congo, but I thought it might be important to point out that the freedom to walk the streets with guns is likely not the civil rights blacks had in mind throughout the 20th century, and where it has happened for black males, the results have been . . . questionable.

Also, I'll say the same is true of Iraq, or Colombia.

Guns can protect you or they might protect liberties. As the original intent went, it also guaranteed that somebody could hunt for food, and also enabled whites to slaughter and dispossess the Indians.

We no longer have the last two, but the point I'm making: it's not a liberty in itself. Being in an environment where you must constantly have the ability to kill another human being is not liberty. However, guns can make other liberties possible, even if their record on that is mixed. Societies don't tend to get more tolerant of other rights once guns are introduced. Why? Because the government is organized while the people usually aren't, and it will always hold the most and best guns, along with worse weapons.

[PavePusher]

438. "The guy at the Obama rally" was not brandishing or flourishing either.

He carried it on a sling over his shoulder, unloaded, as a legal exercise of both the First and Second Amendments.

If Civil Rights are not useable in public, where? When? Just because you disagree with it doesn't mean it's wrong.

The only reason I don't carry a rifle is because they are cumbersome and heavy... and I'm a lazy bastard who's had to carry them in my field of work on occasion.

[caseymoz]

529. Um, it looked like brandishing to me.

Looks to me like he could fire that thing with a couple seconds of prep, but then again, I don't know how you bring a rifle to a political rally and not look threatening. Also, the police officer who has to watch this guy then can't spare to time to maybe spot a real assassin. If you're really making just a political statement about how serious you are, why not just a replica? Fact is, if it's not unusual to be armed at a political rally, how do people then have a chance to spot a real assassin? Rather than, say, just some guy who's alluding to assassination by carrying a rifle, just for exercise?

"If Civil Rights are not useable in public, where? When? Just because you disagree with it doesn't mean it's wrong."

The statement about shouting "fire" in a crowded theater applies here. People have agreed, socially and legally, that that isn't protected speech. You don't have the right to do that, but it makes a good analogy to your argument: if you can't practice your right to free speech in a crowded theater, where else can you do it?

Some things just are common sense to me. Fasten your seat belt, don't drive drunk, and don't carry guns in crowds where your wild shots can have many terrible consequences. You might say, it's a little more than rude. At the very least, I know you don't have my best interests at heart.

I don't believe I made the argument that because I disagree about guns at political rallys then it's wrong. I'd call that a straw man, and a rather lazy one, ignoring every argument I've made.

See you at the gun forum sometime tomorrow. I'm too lazy to open it tonight.

[PavePusher]

534. Don't rush, I opened a thread for us and it got locked as a "calling out".

I'm trying to get it reopened, or start another one.

I'm off to bed myself now.

[Edweird]

227. Please explain how a law against carrying a weapon would have prevented this.

If a law would have stopped him from killing her, murder should be illegal. Why isn't there a law against murder?

[caseymoz]

244. Did I mention a law?

But, though it's not really my point, first, how would he have gotten it? Would he have been prepared, had fresh ammo for this rally? And as far as you know, if he would have owned it illegally, he could have been arrested long before this. And do you even know he could have obtained such a good weapon? Contraband generally carries a high price.

So, it's very conceivable that this wouldn't have happened if it were illegal. I believe I've refuted you on this point.

As for your comparison against murder, here's the problem with making that argument: we don't have a world without laws against murder to compare to ours. Unlike gun laws, such a world is hard to imagine because all of history would be different, but everybody thinks it would be much harsher, and murder and assault would be much more common, which is why we have laws against it. In other words, we presume that it makes murder far less commonplace, and we live in a better world because of it.

Many people are denying that about guns now, but some laws, not even laws against them, regulations, or even such common sense courtesy, would prevent many incidents from happening, or would reduce their severity. Like I doubt that you'd have a dozen people wounded or killed here. You ask how courtesy might have prevented this, well, it might be seen as more unusual or disdainful to carry a gun at a rally. Spotting somebody with one or knowing somebody carried one wouldn't be shrugged off, it would alert people.

So, I think I've refuted you on your second point too.

And I'm not saying guns should be banned. I know we have a Second Amendment (though I don't agree with the current conception of it.) Or just at least think clearly about guns and their appropriate use.

(Edited to add some sentences; sorry if this has confused things.)

[Edweird]

253. You haven't 'refuted' anything. Criminals obtain weapons easily.

Weapons they aren't allowed to possess.

"Contraband generally carries a high price."

You have no idea what you are talking about.

[caseymoz]

275. lol. And yes, I believe it's often the case they get them from legal dealers.

(Probably want to reread what I wrote because I edited it-- sorry.)

In other words, we have a legal/illegal market, a hybrid, rather than a fully illegal market. so, what would prices be like in a totally contraband market. People won't be stealing guns so they could undersell the legal market. Let's look at drugs for a comparison.

So, contraband doesn't carry a high price? So, how much do people pay for a shot of heroin that costs about $3 to produce and distribute. I guess your right. Contraband doesn't carry a high price.

Now, guns aren't like tax-abated stolen cigarettes. They're attraction in a purely illegal gun market won't be that they're cheaper. But again, I never brought up illegality, I'm just telling you that the questions you've asked to poke holes in what I've said are real softballs. I'm surprise gunnuts think they're zingers.

So, I guess I failed to refute another one of your arguments.

Frankly, I think you're just mad because you never thought of any of what I've presented.

[beevul]

263. "So, it's very conceivable that this wouldn't have happened if it were illegal"

I'd wager it WAS illegal.

[caseymoz]

279. You've been baffled by my use of the word "it".

I meant the murders wouldn't have occurred if guns were illegal, not that the murders wouldn't have occurred if murder were illegal.

People could usually figure that out, though. What causes you to go so dumb on the subject of guns?

[beevul]

413. Uh...no not really.

"I meant the murders wouldn't have occurred if guns were illegal, not that the murders wouldn't have occurred if murder were illegal."

You think I don't understand that?

I suspect that it was illegal for the person that committed the murders to possess a firearm. AKA illegal.

Or did you mean illegal for everyone?

"What causes you to go so dumb on the subject of guns?"


You think someone with intent to murder with a gun ILLEGALLY, would have pause to possess a gun illegally to murder with?


And you think I go dumb on the subject on guns?

[caseymoz]

517. Yes, unfortunately, I think you probably are.

First, given that your statement opening lines were sarcastic to begin with, of course I'd get snarky back. Fact is, after that beginning, I really didn't care if you understood or not, either way you meant it, it was dumb.

"You think someone with intent to murder with a gun ILLEGALLY, would have pause to possess a gun illegally to murder with?"

No doubt he'd be willing. But that's not the question. The question is would he be able? So, you missed that point, too.

That's what I mean by guns making you dumber. Why wasn't that clear, either?

No doubt he wouldn't be able to buy it at a Sports Authority, as he reportedly did. Trying to buy a gun from the black market would be at least somewhat more difficult and otherwise risky. Since he bought this at the end of December, apparently he did it to make this attack. Would he have been able to obtain the gun in time, then? Given that he'd be breaking the law just owning one, it would have been a bit more likely he would have been arrested. Not only that, would he be able to purchase a gun that's-- so good, or even afford a gun at all? Presumably, the black market in a world where guns are illegal would make guns more expensive than they are in this world.

But of course, it's rather impossible to compare this world to a world where the US has gun control because the latter does not exist. We can't scientifically test if it would cut assaults and murders, but I'm saying, there's some questions that you're muddying due to ideology, that is, the fact that guns must be legal.

We do have a second amendment, the right to keep and bear arms exists, but no matter how beneficial it is, we should also be truthful about the consequences it brings us.

[beevul]

538. Think what you like.

In spite of reality being conjured otherwise.

"No doubt he'd be willing. But that's not the question. The question is would he be able? So, you missed that point, too. That's what I mean by guns making you dumber. Why wasn't that clear, either?"

Well, lets see.

Shall we list the places where handguns are banned, and then aquired by nefarious individuals in spite of such nonsensical whims? Oh and used to commit murders. Can't forget that.

Ooo I know one. Chicago. Handguns were banned there...and yet Chicago made the murder capital of the country several times while they were banned.

You see, I didn't miss the point, you simply thought you had one and really didn't.

"Trying to buy a gun from the black market would be at least somewhat more difficult and otherwise risky"

I'll play. Cite please. Your claim, support it.


"But of course, it's rather impossible to compare this world to a world where the US has gun control because the latter does not exist. We can't scientifically test if it would cut assaults and murders, but I'm saying, there's some questions that you're muddying due to ideology, that is, the fact that guns must be legal."

Questions that I'm muddying? I think not. It isn't ideology, its common sense.

If they couldn't get guns, they'd use bombs. Watched the news lately? They're using them now in spite of gun availability.

"We do have a second amendment, the right to keep and bear arms exists, but no matter how beneficial it is, we should also be truthful about the consequences it brings us."

I'll make you a deal, I'll ponder the consequences of the second amendment, and you ponder where America would be, what America would be, and even IF America would be, without them.

[caseymoz]

551. I could tell your like George W. Bush about pondering.

It upsets you to your very core. And yes, I have pondered "where America would be, what America would be, and even IF America would be, without them." I have mentioned that in a previous post.

And even there, it's irrelevant, because the question should be not if we needed guns in the past, primarily, to massacre the Indians (yes I've pondered that), but how and why do we still need them, carried around routinely, in public.

"Shall we list the places where handguns are banned, and then aquired by nefarious individuals in spite of such nonsensical whims? Oh and used to commit murders. Can't forget that."

Chicago adopted their gun ban after things already got out of control, and pretty much, out of desperation, but when you pretty much have a huge murder rate and rampant crime, how can you blame the authorities for trying something, anything to bring it under control?

Instead of looking at cities where guns are banned in a country where they are legal (I mean, how can a city really enforce that?) why not instead look at countries where guns are controlled? And compare them to countries where guns are absolutely available, like say, Somalia, or the Congo, or Iraq. It doesn't seem to me that pouring guns into them has resulted in a free society.


"If they couldn't get guns, they'd use bombs. Watched the news lately? They're using them now in spite of gun availability."

I don't know who "they" are, first, you didn't include that from my post, but I will say, bombs don't really replace guns. Such as, we'd arm our marines only with grenades and not rifles. You also don't find bombs used instead of guns in hold ups or carjackings, because the crooks know that a threat to blow themselves up and take you with them is not so convincing. Also, in making explosives, there's a little problem of blowing yourself up, and possibly your family and friends, unless you know what you're doing.

In other words, yes, you can try to replace guns with bombs in all ways, but if the replacement were really that good, people would be using guns equally with bombs for their nefarious activities, or self-defense.


"'Trying to buy a gun from the black market would be at least somewhat more difficult and otherwise risky'"

"I'll play. Cite please. Your claim, support it."

Uh, but I'm not going to play. For what and how? Do you also want a citation that the sky is blue? Do you agree that buying pot or heroin would be easier in legal or illegal market? How many people do we have in prison from drug convictions?

And I know, that's drugs, not guns, and everything depends on the resources put into enforcement, so I'm not going to cite shit about this. You can believe what you want despite facts, despite common sense, despite even every day truth. You could deny every fact or figure I give or make your own exceptions to them about guns. Knowing this, and knowing you get nothing out of what I say, just satisfaction that you have the ability to deny any of it for any jackass reason you want, I think this discussion is at a close.

[Atypical Liberal]

342. Not necessarily.

>I'm thinking the congresswoman and at least several others would still be alive if the guy wasn't armed inappropriately for the occasion. That has something to do with it.

He could have just as easily plowed a car into a crowd at 90 mph.

>You take them to an inappropriate place, it's either 1) because you're an idiot, 2) because you're paranoid,
>3) because you think you're skilled enough to defend yourself in a crowd without hitting the innocent bystanders
>(see 1), 4) because you want to threaten, 5) because you want to kill, or 6) more than one of the above.

Any place where a person is allowed to carry a firearm by law is an appropriate place.

[caseymoz]

531. Just as easily. lol.

That's like saying you can just as easily hammer a nail with a screw driver. Have you ever heard the saying: use the right tool for the right job? Now you have the common sense to know that hammers drive nails. Why don't you have the common sense to know that guns kill people because that is what the tool is made to do, and not say, to use for your commute to work? What is it about the pro-gun propaganda that has damaged your thinking process on this, because it is damaged. Guns either kill people or animals or they are the only tool human beings have ever produced that have absolutely no use.

Okay, first look at the strip mall. Where would he accelerate to even 45 miles per hour from? Through a maze of parked cars? Would he even be able to spot the Congresswoman at that distance? And say he accelerates through the crowd, what are the chances in the chaos he creates that he is going to be able to keep her in sight?

And which is easier to dodge? A car going at 90 miles per hour or a bullet going at 600 feet per second? Again, you have the common sense to know this.

Plus, there's a good chance that he would wreck the car and kill himself. And he would know this.

But I'll agree, with luck, he might hurt or kill as many people, but the problem is, he wanted to get the politician; the rest were innocent bystanders, and he knows he more than likely couldn't do that with a car. No, he needed the proper tool. He could also use a knife, but let's just say, I bet he would hurt only four, kill nobody, and never the congress woman.

No, for selectively assassinating somebody, there's no substitute for the proper tool.

"Any place where a person is allowed to carry a firearm by law is an appropriate place."

So, not even manners and decorum apply to guns? Oh, what can possibly go wrong with that? You can't yell obscenities in a public square, but you can show everybody your gun?

Again, in the Old West, people had common sense about guns. You checked them in when you entered the town. We're now dumber, and we have far better weapons.

[Atypical Liberal]

541. Law trumps manners and decorum.

>Okay, first look at the strip mall. Where would he accelerate to even 45 miles per hour from? Through a maze
>of parked cars? Would he even be able to spot the Congresswoman at that distance? And say he accelerates
>through the crowd, what are the chances in the chaos he creates that he is going to be able to keep her in sight?
>
>And which is easier to dodge? A car going at 90 miles per hour or a bullet going at 600 feet per second?
>Again, you have the common sense to know this.
>
>Plus, there's a good chance that he would wreck the car and kill himself. And he would know this.

We can speculate the what-ifs until the cows come home, but it appeared to me that this gathering was held outside in front of the store. It sure looked to me like it would not have taken much to plow a car through the crowd. Could people run away? Sure, but a crowd doesn't move very fast and I dare say you could kill or injure quite a few that way.

My point is simply this: Taking away firearms won't stop things like this from happening. People will just resort to other means.

>So, not even manners and decorum apply to guns? Oh, what can possibly go wrong with that?

Lots of things can go wrong. But we are a nation of laws, not "manners and decorum". The reason is because between any two people manners and decorum might differ. But the law is the law.

>You can't yell obscenities in a public square, but you can show everybody your gun?

It depends on the law. Some places do not allow open carry as it is considered "brandishing".

[caseymoz]

549. To your point: it might not stop "things" from happening, but . . .

Here's what it will do:

1) It will cut down on the number of assaults that result in homicides, simply because compared, say, to a wound from a knife assault, a wound from a firearm is five times more fatal, and a wound to a vital organ from a firearm is many times more fatal than that with a knife. Those are the statistics say.

2) It will would cut down drastically on the number of impulsive homicides resulting from a "bad moment" with a gun, since many gun homicides are not premeditated at all but result from bad decision over a split second. That decision takes place much too quickly and easily with a gun. With a knife you have to work at it, same with a car. Death isn't so push-button.

3) It would reduce mass deaths from school and public shootings. Nobody is going to kill thirty people in a few minutes without a firearm, or bomb.

4) It would reduce the number of gun accidents, particularly for children.


I'm not against the Second Amendment, but freedoms have consequences, sometimes high consequences. If you want guns so free and available that they're carried casually by the public, well, every couple months; you're going to have school or workplace shootings; you're going to have gun accidents often, and many times they'll frequently wound or kill children; and your going to have a higher number of assaults the result in death. This is all guaranteed, at least with current gun technology, and it's the price you pay for the gun freedom you think is important.

Also, every now and then, some crazy is going to gun after an abortion provider or politician. For the former, BTW, it undercuts a woman's right to choice, for the latter, it removes elected politicians from contact with the public. So, you'll have a suppression, not an enhancing of other rights.

No, I'm not against the Second Amendment, I just hate the way people simply deny these facts, to support gun rights. If you you're for the right to keep and bear arms, fine, but don't try to claim that we don't pay a price for it, because the facts say otherwise.


"We can speculate the what-ifs until the cows come home . . ."

In other words, you don't want me pointing out how flawed your scenario is. Please. You're the one who speculated first by giving the speculative example. Now that I've pointed the flaws in it you want to say "well, that's just speculation."

If cars were so good at homicide, people either wouldn't be bothering with guns, or the assault rate and homicide rate for the two of them would be equal. Same with knives, same with poison. No, despite what the NRA and the Gun nuts say, guns kill people, and if people don't admit it they certainly behave in real life as though they very well know it.


". . .but it appeared to me that this gathering was held outside in front of the store. It sure looked to me like it would not have taken much to plow a car through the crowd. Could people run away? Sure, but a crowd doesn't move very fast and I dare say you could kill or injure quite a few that way."

But would you really get to your target? And if it's such a good idea, why do assassins chooses guns instead? Would you? And in countries where guns are actually controlled, what is the vehicular homicide rate? Just guessing: I don't think it's much higher. I'd like to ask you also, if you were in a pitched gun battle, would you rather have a gun or a knife? You know which is more effective, so quit bullshitting about it.


"Lots of things can go wrong. But we are a nation of laws, not 'manners and decorum'. The reason is because between any two people manners and decorum might differ. But the law is the law."

I know we're a nation of laws. I talk about manners and decorum precisely because we know law can't handle every single situation in human relations in our lives. We have them precisely because we don't want laws to bother us about it, and don't you agree that an over-reliance on law is bad, or are you willing to pay the costs and take the hassle of having the courts brought into everything in your life, including whether you eat your salad with your dessert fork?

And there's noting eternal about laws. They do vary. We wouldn't have case law, and we wouldn't have high priced lawyers and legal scholars making huge salaries trying to figure out and argue what the law means or whether the lawmakers had their heads up their asses making it. The more situations you bring the law into, the more of that will be necessary.

[neverforget]

101. Unbelievable! I hope she and everyone else who was shot, will be ok.

[nyc 4 Biden]

105. New York Times...

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/us/politics/09giffords.html?_r=1&hp

[chrisa]

106. Reports that she died. RIP if true :-(

[dipsydoodle]

127. Yes - its all over UK TV News too.

:cry: So sad.

[GoldenOldie]

178. A class act lady and my Representative

John McCain and Sarah Palin must be so proud at this moment. If that old traitorous bastard dares to extol the virtues of Gabriel Giffords after loosing his Sarah Palin with her "Lock and Load, targets" along with her sicko followers to take aim on Gabriel, I pray he rots in hell.

[lynne]

107. Just heard that NPR is saying she has died. =(

[Faygo Kid]

109. 4 dead, 7 injured

http://www.kold.com/Global/story.asp?S=13807677

[Alexander]

114. NPR reporting she has died.

I feel sick.

http://www.npr.org/2011/01/08/132764367/congresswoman-shot-in-arizona?ft=3&f=1003,1004,1007,1013,1014,1017,1019,1128

[xchrom]

115. recommend -- if this turns out to be a bagger -- then they didn't mishear their marching orders.

just like mcveigh didn't mishear his as well.

but as long as you can get someone like this shooter or mcveigh to do your dirty work -- you distance yourself from them --
right palin, beck, o'reilly?

[nyc 4 Biden]

116. Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot And Killed

http://www.wbur.org/npr/132764367/congresswoman-shot-in-arizona

fuck!

[Arrowhead2k1]

119. The Rethuglicans have blood on their hands.

They stirred the pot and predictably this is the very unfortunate results. :(

[GoCubsGo]

130. That should read....

The Rethuglicans have MORE blood on their hands. They have been drowning in it for decades.

[tsuki]

147. I think this is on Rupert Roo. He's the one that supported and publicized

the Tea Party. He's the one that did program after program calling for violence and giving a national voice to "second amendment remedies".

[feslen]

121. when are we going to arrest and kick out the terrorists Beck, Palin and Fox News?

they're the ones spreading hate, anti-american sentiments and bent on diving this once beautiful country apart.

[DBoon]

214. You better believe they would if the shooter was a dark-skinned Muslim

and who else remembers the report on right-wing terrorism that DHS was going to release?

The one that got retracted after wingers in the media slammed it?

[keepCAblue]

122. Video: Rep. Giffords target of harassment, threats

Video of interview with Giffords regarding threats of violence received from teabaggers and the now-infamous bullseye target Sarah Palin posted on FB, targeting Giffords and other Dems who voted for Obama's Health Care package.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40978517/ns/politics/

[Faygo Kid]

123. +1

[jvanm]

Palin on Jared Laughner Facebook page

Jared Laughner list Palin as other interest on his Facebook home page. He also links to his videos on youtube where he spells his name Loughner -- so I think he's the perp.

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001953724753&sk=info

http://www.youtube.com/user/Classitup10

I get the feeling he watched a lot of Beck and Tea Party nonsense that played into his mental illness.

[chatnoir]

407. Page/profile gone already...

Scrubbing faster these days, it seems.

[jvanm]

429. Yep, it's down

There were other Jared Laughner Facebook pages up that were probably put up by those who think its funny to make fake pages to news events, but this one, imo was authentic. I didn't expect it to disappear or I would have captured it.

[Faygo Kid]

131. She's dead along with 6 others!

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/44/2011/01/reports-arizona-rep-gabrielle.html?hpid=topnews

[williesgirl]

133. NPR just reported she died. How horrible.

[theothersnippywshrub]

136. How very Republican. n/t

[CountAllVotes]

138. US Rep. Gabrielle Giffords Killed During Shooting At Event In Arizona

Source: NPR

>>Update: According to NPR, Giffords has been killed.

Very, very tragic news.

A very disturbing situation in Arizona.

Democratic Representative Gabrielle Giffords was shot among 12 people at an Arizona Grocery store.

According to CNN, she was shot in the head. :cry:

:dem:

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/gabrielle-giffords-shot-2011-1

---

I have no comments except may you RIP Rep. Gifford and the others that have died for no good reason! :(

[auntAgonist]

139. just horrible

:( :cry: :(

[aquart]

140. Assassinated. Not killed. Assassinated.

For NOT being a murderous right wing piece of trash.

[Xipe Totec]

142. Bingo n/t

[patrice]

141. Am I the only one thinking the struggle for the Dream Act is heating up, perhaps? We'll have to

see who is arrested, before we'll know anything, but . . . . ?

[carolinayellowdog]

143. Condolences to her constituents and family

prayers for Arizona and America

[Alexander]

221. As of right now, Congresswoman Giffords is alive and in surgery.

National media have retracted their reports that she has died.

[2Design]

286. Palin facebook crosshair map

http://www.facebook.com/notes/sarah-palin/dont-get-demoralized-get-organized-take-back-the-20/373854973434

[starroute]

144. Does this mean Brewer gets to appoint a replacement?

Talk about adding insult to injury...

[Alexander]

259. No. US House seats remain vacant until a special election.

And Giffords isn't dead as of right now.

[truth2power]

145. That would be a federal crime, wouldn't it? I guess Holder

will get right on it.

ETA> Someone should ask Biden if he thinks the shooter is a "high level terrorist". I wanna hear his answer.

[Hissyspit]

150. FLASH: Congresswoman Gifford Dies After Being Shot in Head at Public Appearance (6 Others Killed)

Source: Reuters

Reuters: FLASH: Congresswoman Gifford dies after being shot in the head at public appearance in Tucson, Arizona

Congresswoman killed, others injured in shooting: report

TUCSON, Arizona | Sat Jan 8, 2011 2:15pm EST
(Reuters) - Representative Gabrielle Giffords was fatally shot during a public appearance on Saturday, National Public Radio said.

NPR said a gunman ran up to Giffords, 40, a Democrat, and opened fire. The suspect was taken into custody, NPR said.

Media reports said about a dozen other people also were shot.

Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE7071IA20110108

---

http://www.npr.org/2011/01/08/132764367/congresswoman-shot-in-arizona

Congresswoman, 6 Others, Killed By Gunman
by NPR STAFF

January 8, 2011
Rep. Gabrielle Giffords and six others died after a gunman opened fire at a public event on Saturday, the Pima County, Ariz., sheriff's office confirms.

The 40-year-old Democrat, who was re-elected to her third term in November, was hosting a "Congress on Your Corner" event at a Safeway in northwest Tucson when a gunman ran up and started shooting, according to Peter Michaels, news director of Arizona Public Media.

At least three other people, including members of her staff, were injured. Giffords was transported to University Medical Center in Tucson. Her condition was not immediately known.

Giffords was talking to a couple when the suspect ran up and fired indiscriminately from about four feet away, Michaels said.

[tabatha]

151. Damn.

[Solly Mack]

152. K&R

[CaliforniaPeggy]

153. How horrible.

Safe passage to her, and to all the other victims of this wicked act...

[ChazII]

154. KTAR 92.3 is covering this story

and has interrupted their regular scheduled programming to cover the story. Gunman is a teen or early 20's according to their reports.

[AC_Mem]

155. Website KOLD says one suspect, possibly early 20's

In custody

http://www.kold.com/global/video/flash/popupplayer.asp?vt1=l&d1=0&ClipId1=mms%3A//a1925.l2053733750.c20537.n.lm.akamaistream.net/D/1925/20537/v0001/reflector%3A33750&LiveURI=mms%3A//a1925.l2053733750.c20537.n.lm.akamaistream.net/D/1925/20537/v0001/reflector%3A33750&h1=KOLD

[sasha031]

156. this is so horrible

[cal04]

157. eyewitness, Steven Rayle on the shooting

Arizona Congresswoman Shot Outside Grocery Store (Update)
http://gawker.com/5728501/

(snip)
We spoke to an eyewitness, Steven Rayle who was on the scene at the time of the shooting and helped to hold the suspect down while waiting for police. Here's what he said:

The event was very informal: Gifford had set up a table outside the Safeway and about 20-30 people were gathered to talk to her. The gunman, who may have come from inside the Safeway, walked up and shot Gifford in the head first. According to Rayle, who is a former ER doctor, Gifford was able to move her hands after being shot.

After shooting Gifford, the gunman opened fire indiscriminately for a few seconds, hitting a number of people, including a kid no older than 10 years old. Rayle hid behind a concrete pole and pretended to be dead. When the gunman apparently ran out of ammunition he attempted to flee, but a member of Gifford's staff tackled him. Rayle helped hold the gunman down while waiting for the sheriff to arrive, about 15-or 20 minutes later. 30 minutes later the EMS came. Rayle said he was "stunned" by how long it took medical help to arrive.

The man was young, mid-to-late 20s, white, clean-shaven with short hair and wearing dark clothing and said nothing during the shooting or while being held down. He didn't look like a businessman, but more of a "fringe character," Rayle said.

[Name removed]

162. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

166. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

173. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[chatnoir]

391. 15-20 mins for the sheriff to arrive, another 30 for the EMS???

Do they not have 911 in Tuscon???? :wtf:

[OKNancy]

158. they aren't reporting the death on CNN or MSNBC

?

[Tx4obama]

161. They are now. n/t

[Yukari Yakumo]

177. Just reported as a Special Report on NBC a few minutes ago. {nt}

[abluelady]

159. Simply Horrible

My congressman doesn't hold "open" meetings. I have always been annoyed by that fact, but maybe I should think twice abour it?:shrug:

[Babel_17]

160. Link: Reuters on twitter

http://twitter.com/reuters

FLASH: Congresswoman Gifford dies after being shot in the head at public appearance in Tucson, Arizona

[marew]

163. Republican 2nd Amendment remedies. Damn them. n/t

[ChairmanAgnostic]

167. Fuck them. Fuck sharron, Sarah, rush, Sean.

Fuck the tea party. Fuck them all.

[lastone]

187. fuck them all - better to shut them the fuck up

they have repeatability called for violence against the left, fuck them after we gag their stupid fucking mouths.

[gademocrat7]

164. This is terrible.

[Liberal Veteran]

165. Bloody hell! My condolences to the families of those killed and injured.

[JohnWxy]

181. I tried to leave msg on FoxNews thanking them for the madness but it locked up when I hit leave

comment 'button'. Will keep trying.

[high density]

168. On air, sheriff on MSNBC says she is still alive NM

[orbitalman]

171. I thot this happened ONLY in 3rd world countries. n/t

[ensemble]

172. correct***

f

[Ikonoklast]

224. Look out the window.

The right wing cannot win fairly, vilolence will increase as their insane agenda for this country fails.

[theothersnippywshrub]

176. Palin probably is reloading right now. n/t

[lastone]

180. STILL IN SURGERY! from www.kold.com

not being a praying man myself, i am praying for her now...

[truth2power]

182. If that guy, Ahlawi is considered a terrorist

for making speeches that allegedly promote violence, what does that make Sarah Palin???

I think it's incumbent upon Pres. Obama to call her out also. Yeah, that'll happen.

[patrice]

183. We NEED to have some kind of tribute to these people. Candle-light vigils and such. nt

[bigworld]

184. Only the 2nd Congressperson ever to be killed while serving

The first was Leo Ryan (Guyana / Jim Jones incident)

[Synicus Maximus]

236. Actually she would be the fourth. John Clayton of Arkansas was

assassinated in 1889 and James Hinds also of Arkansas was killed in 1868, and then there was of course Ryan in 1978.

[Bluenorthwest]

238. Democratic Representative Leo Ryan, to be exact

Also wounded that day was his aid Jackie Spieres who in now in Congress herself.

[Withywindle]

412. Yeah, and who assassinated Ryan?

Brainwashed thugs of a scary, paranoid cult. Not much different from the Teabaggers. And if they get real power, this country won't have much more of a future than Jonestown did.

:cry:

[high density]

186. hospital spokesperson on MSNBC: She is in surgery NM

[Tx4obama]

188. MSNBC: Hospital says she is alive and still in surgery. n/t

[penndragon69]

192. Teabagger TERRORISM !

The tea klanner lost the election to her and now
she has been shot point blank in the
head multiple times.

This is just the start of the reich wing terrorist
war against America.

And so it begins.

[Yukari Yakumo]

194. This is the world the Palin's and the Beck's have wrought. Unfortunately.

They'll deny it of course. But the blood is very defintely on their hands.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

195. we must keep saying it. Put it up in their faces.

Shove it down their throats. Let them know that their words not only caused pain and suffering, they resulted in blood.

[BobbyBoring]

249. It's time

For these hate mongers to start disappearing. Short of that, Hannity, Limbaugh, Beck, etc should be water boarded until they confess that they are just lying shills for the PTB~

[RidinMyDonkey]

196. This was her first Congress In Your Corner. jeez

Her last tweet says
"My 1st Congress on Your Corner starts now. Please stop by to let me know what is on your mind or tweet me later."

It's fucking heartbreaking.



I also don't have cable and not a single local channel has any breaking news reports. wtf! I'm holding out hope that she is alive until the hospital releases a statement saying otherwise. Even if she does pull through this was a fucking tragedy and should never happen again.

[Seedersandleechers]

250. You can watch MSNBC online

http://channelsurfing.net/ Just saying.

[PhillySane]

197. God Bless Arizona: Nazi Land

One of the few states where you can actually walk around in public places with an M-16 strapped to your back. Hope you guys are happy now. It finally happened.

[cal04]

198. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords in Surgery , MSNBC video with hospital spokesperson

Rep. Gabrielle Giffords in Surgery After Being Shot at Public Appearance, Says Spokesperson

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/rep-gabrielle-giffords-shot-grocery-store-event/story?id=12571452

(snip)
She was taken to University Medical Center, where a hospital spokesman confirmed she was alive. But the extent and seriousness of her injuries were not being released.


Hospital spokesperson: Giffords in surgery
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/40978612#40978612

[RBInMaine]

199. They want constiutional purity? Good. How about a "speedy trial" and a lethal injection for murder.

[totodeinhere]

231. Something like this almost makes me want to rethink my opposition to capital punishment. n/t

[totodeinhere]

200. Let me express my sincere condolences to the Giffords family and to the families

of the other victims. Obviously, this is an unspeakable tragedy.

[Desertrose]

205. ..

[npk]

202. FOX NEWS STATES SHE IS ALIVE

For what it's worth, Fox News is reporting they have a source that states she is in surgery and alive, but in critical condition.

[jae1227]

204. Fox says that she is alive in critical condition

(Commercial Break on MSNBC)

[harvey007]

206. Congresswoman shot dead in Tucson: reports

Source: CBC

U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords of Arizona was killed after being shot in the head in Tucson while holding a public event, the National Public Radio reported Saturday.

Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2011/01/08/giffords-arizona-shooting.html

[lyonn]

207. The insanity has begun......

The repubs keep beating their hate filled drums and the crazies get crazier.

[Alexander]

208. NPR and CNN retracted their report that she was killed.

I hope she survives.

[Katya Mullethov]

217. But ahm not dead yet !

Ye soon will be . thump

[Ozymanithrax]

216. Something I found twitter.com

http://yfrog.com/h5p7wp:iphone

http://twitter.com/#!/mattyglesias/status/23817848610627584

Fun campaign event: "Help remove Gabrille Giffords from office. Shoot a fully automatic M16 with Jesse Kelly" http://yfrog.com/h5p7wp

Also mentioned on the http://voices.washingtonpost.com/44/2011/01/reports-arizona-rep-gabrielle.html
in the comments.

[npk]

211. Where the hell is the security for these congressmen and congresswomen

How does somebody just walk up to a congresswoman and shoot them in the head.

[No Passaran]

212. They don't have security

[high density]

215. She was at a supermarket.

What are we supposed to do about this? Is Napolitano supposed to deploy nude-o-scopes and some barrier around these sorts of gatherings?

[npk]

219. Where I live

Congresspeople almost always have at least an off duty deputy with them no matter where they hold an event. I understand this was at a supermarket/store, but I am surprised there was not at least one or two cops near hear. I guess I am just used to seeing that where I live.

[jakeXT]

348. I heard talk about malls, but never heard her directly say malls

Next step for tight security could be trains, boats, metro
By Jordy Yager - 11/23/10 02:09 PM ET

Editor's note: This story and its headline have been clarified to show that the Department of Homeland Security has not indicated it plans to use body scanners to tighten security at transportation sites beyond airports.
http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/130549-next-step-for-body-scanners-could-be-trains-boats-and-the-metro-

Maybe the headline has been changed and she mentioned malls before, I don't know





mobile scanners
http://blogs.forbes.com/andygreenberg/2010/08/24/full-body-scan-technology-deployed-in-street-roving-vans/

[grahamhgreen]

220. Is this terrorism, and who will they target next?

[jae1227]

WTF!!! MSNBC says a Federal Judge was killed!

[cbdo2007]

223. CNN shamelessly seeking photo and video of shooting....

"If you happen to be there and have an eyewitness account, or if you happened to capture anything just in some random photos or videos, please send us an email and share that with us..."

Ummmmmm = how about "contact law enforcement"????????????????

assholes. this is horrible and they're just looking for the money shot.

[Concordia]

225. What do you want to bet

What do you want to bet that if this shooter has Tea Party ties, the MSM will be more than happy to either downplay them or completely ignore them? For all I know he could just be one of those genuine crazies, but you never know.

[LaurenG]

228. I hope they can save her. What a huge disconnect between this act of violence

and this act of compassion http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4687987

It's unfortunate we don't have hero's like this on the right instead of the hate filled obscene people who caused this to start with.

[sonias]

230. How awful

My thoughts go out to Rep Gabby Giffords and her family and that of her aide.


:cry:

[Hoyt]

232. I believe that as of summer 2010 AZ law allows concealed carry EVEN WITHOUT A PERMIT.

When will this craziness stop. I'm sure the NRA is on "top" of this and will use it to promote more guns in peoples' pants, in public, schools, bars, churches, parks, etc.

Hoping the Congresswoman and others make it.

[PavePusher]

433. And that change in the law had what to do with this?

Be specific and include supporting evidence please.

[dem mba]

233. press conference at 3:30p est

from what I understand.

[1monster]

234. My son just asked me what party she belonged to. I said I didn't know but would

hazzard a guess that she was a Democrat because only Democrats get assassinated.

Upon looking it up, I find I was correct.

Those hate spewers need to be reigned in before they lead the mentally and emotionally unstable to start a civil war. This country is in for a bumpy ride.

[baldguy]

237. They're blaming Sarah on her facebook page

http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=24718773587&topic=24768

[RidinMyDonkey]

239. That's a bit rash

It's not like I would be surprised if the guy turned out to be a Sarah Palin/Glen Beck loving freak. We shouldn't jump to conclusions about who killed her. It could just be a loose canon.

[baldguy]

251. You did see the target, right?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4688107#4688214

[tsuki]

287. Better look at it quick, it has been scrubbed from the site. nt

[county worker]

255. But if it is a home grown terrorist I sure as hell hope we begin to go after those inciting murder!

[progressivebydesign]

463. GOOD!!!

As the good Sheriff just said in the press conference, the "vitriol" is not without consequences. They believe he is not insane, but unstable, and those are the people that Palin and others HOPE will act on their far from coded messages about "targeting" opponents.

[MellowDem]

241. Sarah's site has been scrubbed

The link doesn't work anymore at least... Anyone know how to bring up the google cache?

[Chimichurri]

246. there's this from HuffPo

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/24/sarah-palins-pac-puts-gun_n_511433.html

[starroute]

254. People keep starting new threads as fast as the old ones are deleted

This is what was at the top when I opened the link a couple of minutes ago:

There was a problem reaching the topic you requested.

Displaying topics 1 - 30 out of 2358.

Palin is to blame for Giffords' murder!
25 posts. Created 5 minutes ago
Latest post by Meagan Roberts Munsell
Posted 4 seconds ago

you
42 posts. Created 17 minutes ago
Page 1 2
Latest post by Lauren Webster
Posted 6 seconds ago

Sarah Palin's Murderous Acts
4 posts. Created 2 minutes ago
Latest post by Samantha Vinc
Posted 8 seconds ago

McCain
16 posts. Created 2 hours ago
Latest post by James Eaton
Posted 14 seconds ago

(sung) Maybe this time... I'll be lucky...
2 posts. Created 38 seconds ago
Latest post by Bigg Slick
Posted 22 seconds ago

Bye Bye Palin
2 posts. Created 2 minutes ago
Latest post by Patti Dent Blocker
Posted 34 seconds ago

Wow, what a momma grizzly
11 posts. Created 7 minutes ago
Latest post by Judith Rodenbeck
Posted 2 minutes ago

Coward
7 posts. Created 5 minutes ago
Latest post by Andrew Cam Trask
Posted 2 minutes ago

Your career is over.
1 post. Created 2 minutes ago
Latest post by Bill Gabriel
Posted 2 minutes ago

[sadbear]

262. fox new is continuously scrolling palin's statement about the shooting

They're certainly doing some damage control for her.

[progressivebydesign]

467. Palin is a private citizen, and I find it sickening that they're treating her like an official.

Her statement made me throw up in my mouth. How dare she try and act so pious now, after using clearly inciting language for the past 2 years? No excuse.

[TBF]

292. Sarah's web folks weren't fast enough -

?AWSAccessKeyId=0ZRYP5X5F6FSMBCCSE82&Expires=1294521411&Signature=MiCBu9uSJVpT8buqf0i%2Fzr1jnhw%3D

From this site: http://twitpic.com/3o7jnn

[Barack_America]

346. Thanks for the twitpic. Link is still good.

I've saved the image and would encourage others to consider doing the same.

No erasing it now.

[Canuckistanian]

243. Her father Spencer Giffords, 75, wept when asked if his 40-year-old daughter had any enemies.

"Yeah," he told The Post. "The whole tea party."
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/ariz_congresswoman_shot_in_head_YFTvsurRHy5OWGSRKnuK8J#ixzz1ATapcbLU

[JusticeWinsEverytime]

252. From what I read, Giffords was a great Democrat

imagine fighting for immigration reform,
renewable energy sources
higher wages

*** Ding ding ding, job creation all of these.

I hope we have not lost a great democrat today...

My deepest condolences to Giffords and family...

[JusticeWinsEverytime]

245. Thanks for Link Ptah, This is a sad day indeed..

This marks the 2nd obvious democratic casualty from the Tea party, (the first was Lauren Valle who got her head stomped at a Rand Paul Rally, and the fella was never prosecuted who did it).

I took the liberty to research the takebackthe20.com website on Godaddy... Let's all call this phone # till it rings off the hook to demand that Sarah Palin stop inciting violence against democrats. *** CALL [phone] *** to demand they stop inciting violence against innocent Americans.

Meanwhile, write an email to "The Learning Channel" to take Sarah off their broadcasts, she is now officially a criminal who is a party to a murder.

Registrant:
Sarah PAC
P.O. Box 7711
Arlington, Virginia 22207
United States

Registered through: GoDaddy.com, Inc. (http://www.godaddy.com)
Domain Name: TAKEBACKTHE20.COM
Created on: 19-Jul-10
Expires on: 19-Jul-11
Last Updated on: 27-Dec-10

Administrative Contact:
PAC, Sarah [e-mail]
P.O. Box 7711
Arlington, Virginia 22207
United States
[phone]

Technical Contact:
PAC, Sarah [e-mail]
P.O. Box 7711
Arlington, Virginia 22207
United States
[phone]

[Ptah]

331. This is personal

She's my congresswoman.

[RedSpartan]

248. Wasn't it Sharron Angle

who said that people need to start looking to their 2nd Amendment remedies?

Utterly and completely sickening.

My thoughts and prayers are with the Congresswoman and her family.

[PhillySane]

258. Maybe this is why they felt the need to read the constitution.

Since the 2nd is the only one they know.

[nolabear]

261. Does anyone know what was going on there? Staffers were also shot.

Why was she there with staffers? A federal judge was also there and was killed!

[JohnnyRingo]

288. As I understand....

It was an open town hall where she could meet & greet her constituents and answer some of their questions. There was a large banner announcing her appearance. These are the kind of events that Tea Party members demand of Democratic politicians. They mostly want to shout in their face and cause a commotion to give the impression that everyone hates the democrat, but it now appears that some have more serious intent.

[old mark]

264. K&R: Link to NYT story. She is reported alive, in surgery. Shooter is in custody,

white male in his 20's, "shabbily dressed". He walked up to her ahd shot her in the head from a few feet away, then shot others nearby, including several of her staff.

Link: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/us/politics/09giffords.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&src=igw

She was holding a meet the public event outside a Safeway supermarket, in a crowd of local people.

Republican right wing politics in action.

mark

[HughBeaumont]

266. RIP and fuck the fucking TeaHadists.

Put every ONE of those motherfuckers on notice NOW. Terrorist bastards.

[Name removed]

526. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[newspeak]

271. per faux snooze

on their ticker-Sarah Palin and Todd offer their sympathy and wish for peace and justice. I think the whitewashing has begun.

Also on Faux, they interviewed congresswoman Lopez, and were discussing that the man may be an afghan veteran. So if he was, he's shooting the people who most likely would help him or shoot the people who didn't create the nightmare? Or did he listen to too much of Pecker. Limpballs and O'llielly-with a true admiration for Palin?

[JusticeWinsEverytime]

272. Twitpic of the Sarah Palin Pac Image with Gunsights...

sqlrmom on twitter voiced my exact sentiments...

Sqrlmom Susan Israel
@rohinnn http://twitpic.com/3o7pgo - Sarah Palin = accessory to MURDER. Guilty as charged.

[GReedDiamond]

282. The picture is already gone...nt

[JusticeWinsEverytime]

291. I saved it to my site in case they try to scrub elsewhere in web

for all to see..

Sarah and her ilk are neanderthal violent extremist christians. As dangerous as the taliban.

[Divine Discontent]

306. good job! she's a violence-inducing extremist. I think the waybackmachine probably will have it, too

[JusticeWinsEverytime]

319. I checked the wayback machine..

sadly it stopped back in 2006.

I guess the google monster wants to keep it's monopoly on cached information.

I hope someone resurrects that awesome site....

[JusticeWinsEverytime]

320. i swear 5 seconds earlier the picture was there

this is creepy. it was posted by a real progressive twitpeep....

[JusticeWinsEverytime]

323. Has twitter gone all Big Brother on us?

ever since this Julian Assange associate witchhunt, I'm wondering if Twitter like facebook
has been bought out by the highest Bidder (in Facebooks case Goldman Sachs). Americans are naive
to think there is any place safe on the internet to share their honest feelings without big brother
reaching into the archives and using it to label one 'enemy combatant' and stick in Quantico without a trial.

[freshwest]

344. The first time I heard of Twitter was on you tube and it was being promoted by Homeland Security...

Or FEMA. They didn't make a big point of it, they just said it was good for emergencies.

So you're correct, but their control mechanisms were in place a long time before they used it publicly.

I wouldn't call it a sell-out, because they already owned it.

If we want to get right down to it, no, there is no safe place to converse on the internet. It's all being recorded. Hope they don't use it to go after us small fry.

And they haven't even truly hurt Assage, just inconvenienced him.

[Weird Liberal Head]

273. This is a sad day for America.

I hope she recovers from this, and I hope we find out who the (would-be?) assassin is, why he tried to kill her, and whether he is connected to the GOP, Tea Party, or another far-right group.

[JudyM]

274. Now being listed in critical condition per msnbc, 2nd hand

Also 18 people were shot, including one child.

[JudyM]

276. Update: she is expected to pull through!!

[Divine Discontent]

309. good news, hope it continues! praying so!

[jumptheshadow]

280. Folks, wait until we get more news

Wait until they start confirming information. There is all sort of speculation. We will get some clearer information soon.

[stockholmer]

284. State Rep. Linda Lopez says shooter was an Afghan War vet Jared Laughner

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2011/01/08/20110108arizona-giffords-brk.html

http://newsbrk.blogspot.com/2011/01/ap-ap-sources-gunman-in-arizona.html

http://twitter.com/RussertXM_NBC

http://twitter.com/CBSRadioNews

[stockholmer]

299. 2nd person arrested, 3rd sought

http://tucsoncitizen.com/mark-evans/archives/389

"Police arrest man near Thornydale and Magee Roads who is suspected of being connected to the shooting of Giffords and others. A third man is being sought."

[Wednesdays]

354. If that is confirmed, then we're officially in conspiracy territory

Wonder how many this involved...and how HIGH IT WENT...

[stockholmer]

390. some initial thoughts on the larger picture

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4688107&mesg_id=4688790

[AngryOldDem]

293. Surgeon giving briefing on CNN now.

1 dead, 5 critical, 5 in surgery. Rep. Giffords -- recovering, doctor optimistic about her recovery.

Was this a random shooting, or was the gunman aiming at her?

[JusticeWinsEverytime]

295. There's a special cell in "The Hague" for Cheney, and Palin

and all the criminals who hold our government hostage from us.

This is not the America I want to live in.

This kind of violence would not exist if we had true Media rules and the old FCC regulating incitement of violence like Sarah and Rush do on a daily basis.

[EmeraldCityGrl]

296. 9 year old child has died.

God forbid

[Divine Discontent]

301. how heart breaking and sad for the family, going to a fun event and be crushed in their hearts by

this hateful act. God bless the family, and I pray for those alive who have been shot to pull through, I want them so badly to live. This action, regardless if he admits to doing it because of specific comments from extremist talking heads, speaks loudly to me about the rampant call for violence against our leaders, and it's very disturbing. I hope the president has already told them to really go after anyone making threatening statements, and I believe Palin should be put on some type of probation for her "target list" (which they're saying has been removed from twitter).

The president is speaking soon I hear... Thanks for confirming the sad news, I thought I heard a kid died, and that was quite angering, so in hearing this, I hope there's no more sad news.

[JusticeWinsEverytime]

298. Palin - Inciteful, Giffords - Insightful (Twitter's Exiledsurfer spelling)

Feel this picture pretty much sums up the 2 women, Sarah Palin and Gabby Giffords.

http://twitter.com/account/profile_image/exiledsurfer?hreflang=en

[N_E_1 for Tennis]

300. Palin's link still active (FB)

You should see some of the comments.

http://www.facebook.com/notes/sarah-palin/dont-get-demoralized-get-organized-take-back-the-20/373854973434

Link found at FDL in comment section

[EmeraldCityGrl]

310. The comments are angry. People have had enough of this

psycho.

[William769]

303. What a sad day this has turned out to be.

My prayers are with Rep Gabrielle Giffords.


waiting for a through investigation to make sure all involved directly and indirectly are brought to justice.

[jimlup]

304. God Damn it!!!!!!!!!!

God Damn it! Why is it always one of us?????????

God Damn it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[JusticeWinsEverytime]

318. because we're the nice evolved progressive guys..

and I wouldn't have it any other way.

What's cool, is she survives, and she becomes the next President of the US.

it could happen. just watch.

[jimlup]

322. Hope so, I don't pray but I'm praying for her

[JusticeWinsEverytime]

324. she'll pull thru

and praying is a good thing.. it's sending positive energy out.

Let's all do this on this Thread..


TYPE THIS:
Gabby Giffords will survive this nightmare. And the perps will be brought to justice..

(that means you Sarah).

[freshwest]

311. After years of vitriol toward all progressives, threats, killings and beatings, sadly not surprised.

I'm so sorry she was killed and the others there with her who believed in the openness of the democratic process. There was an attempt at bombing a Democratic polling place in Arkansas, there have been death threats against Democratic representatives and their families in many states. There is a direct link in several cases to the emotional tirades of Glen Beck and others.

There will probably be some spin put out that is wasn't political, but I won't believe it. Anyone who has followed how Democrats, liberals, progressives, you name it, have been vilified and the calls for their death over the years, can't help but feel we have targets on our backs.

Will the Freepers or the 'Second Amendment Solution' folks take back their words now?

Will this be a turning point in our national dialog?

After years of hate mongering, will it change or get worse?

When I first heard this story, I went through the stages of grief, save the first, shock. No, I wasn't surprised. I'd had to not be paying attention to the rantings of Beck and Palin followers to be shocked.

Then I went to intense anger, and now I'm coming down from that. For right now, today, I'm just crying. For these people and for my country.

[JusticeWinsEverytime]

314. Freshwest, the long arms of justice will find Sarah Palin some day soon

don't worry Freshwest.

as a progressive with Obama selling us out faster than a cheap talking car salesman, it's easy to get discouraged.

but just realize that all justice (similar to the Nazi criminals that were subsequently prosecuted in the hague many years after their actions).

the long arm of justice might be slow.

the wheels of justice might move way too infinitesimally in the direction of justice..

but one day soon, we will see how this day, marks the end of the palin power tragectory.

her career is finished.

and one day, the folks who matter will get office in the white house.

and the investigations will be held

and the criminals will be brought to justice.

in this I am certain.

[freshwest]

328. Thanks, I needed to hear that.

[DLine]

313. Fox is already spinning...

Fox News is already mentioning every chance they can that she was a "Blue Dog" and a "Conservative Democrat"

[fascisthunter]

329. the Neo-Fascist/Neo-Nazi Channel=Fox News

[Kyad02]

316. If anything positive comes out of this it is the end of Palins"career"

nd hopefully the Douche baggers that worship her as well

[Kyad02]

317. If anything positive comes out of this it is the end of Palins"career"

and hopefully the Douche baggers that worship her as well

[Paul Muni]

325. I shit thee not...

...Fox News just cut to there Phoenix affiliate KGUN! Arizonan's gotta love'm.

p.s. Gabby please stay warm.

[JusticeWinsEverytime]

326. any links on the sheriff's press conference

want to see what they say about the gunman.

[BumRushDaShow]

327. My thoughts and prayers go out to those who became victims

of the lunatic fringe. This was the teabagger's literal "shot across the bow". Let America see how insane the repukes have become. No manners, no decorum, no sympathy, no intelligence, and certainly no hope for any salvation.

[KewlKat]

330. looks like failin has scrubbed her website

i hope the others listed on the list of 20 are being extra careful. She should be liable for restitution of something.

[RhodaA]

332. She was on Palin's "hit list" during HCR debate - See article

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/onpolitics/post/2010/09/palin-targets-health-care-law-supporters-on-site/1

Also:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/08/sarah-palin-statement-shooting_n_806224.html

[RoccoR5955]

334. TEABAGGERS ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS... HOLD THEM RESPONSIBLE!

Caribou Barbie, and the rest of her buddies belong in jail for collusion!

[1American]

335. Arizona evil

THIS IS A DIRECT RESULT OF SHARON ANGLE'S "SECOND AMENDMENT SOLUTION" ----SHE SHOULD BE ARRESTED AND SENTENCED FOR ADVOCATING VIOLENCE AGAINST PUBLIC OFFICIALS.

ARIZONA, LIKE TEXAS, IS A CESSPOOL OF RADICALIZED RIGHT-WING EVANGELICAL INSANITY---AND JOHN MCCAIN IS NO SHINING EXAMPLE OF NORMALCY.

[DFW]

336. This time, it's VERY personal.

I just spent the last week of December with her, hugged her Happy New Year

I am sorely tempted to suspend my opposition to the death penalty. Gaby is a friend. This time, it's VERY personal.

Her husband, Mark, must be going absolutely nuts right now. I don't blame him.

[stockholmer]

337. I found some really strange videos and MySpace page from a Jared LOUGHNER (listed as Tuscon, AZ)

http://www.youtube.com/user/Classitup10#p/f/0/3L1lsLU-kUw

http://www.casttv.com/video/pu4epa8/introduction-jared-loughner-video

http://twitpic.com/3o8ajp

seems like the shooter, really sounds radical

[IamK]

356. Looking at this leads me to believe he is not a Teabagger...

[kudzu22]

358. Sounds like a whole lot of crazy to me.

[IamK]

371. yup... his "twitter friend" claims he was left leaning but had issues with

drugs and alcohol. Had not seen him in person in 2-3 years...

"Catie Parker" says she knew the shooter, and "he was left wing, quite liberal. & oddly obsessed with the 2012 prophecy"

http://search.twitter.com/search?q=caitie+parker

His bio lists his fav books as Communist Manifesto, Mein Kamp, The New Republic etc....


Prob just a nut...

[stockholmer]

372. here is a court case from 2008 he was involved in

?AWSAccessKeyId=0ZRYP5X5F6FSMBCCSE82&Expires=1294526977&Signature=jYbdekpz8cz5InWFg0A7Un7hWPA%3D

[Wednesdays]

370. That's an important find! Copy those videos before they're scrubbed!

Dunno if the videos are from the actual assassin, but that piece of the puzzle seems to fit well. The video maker is almost certainly a college student (same age range as the suspect), who seems to have a major grudge against government, and has some really wacko ideas about the Constitution (police are unconstitutional, as are public colleges)...he says, "don't trust this government."

Edit: make sure you don't confuse the 5 videos he CREATED with the one that he added to his FAVORITES (the one with the American flag). The video with the American flag has all sorts of new comments on it, but that video is from A DIFFERENT ACCOUNT.

[DinahMoeHum]

339. G*D HELP SARAH PALIN AND THE TEABAGGERS

if Giffords dies. It will be open season on them AFAIC.

[LawnKorn]

340. What would you bet it was done by some right wing nut job like Timothy McVeigh

Assignation by some mind numb robot consumed from listening to too much AM talk radio.

[mreilly]

351. The moment I heard this....

... I immediately knew she was a Democrat, just as I know the shooter is a piece of garbage Republican, brainwashed by Limbaugh/Hannity/Beck/Fox News. I've said it before and I'll say it again: the majority of Republicans feel murder is perfectly fine if it's the enemy (making their pro-life claims ludicrous). These people have no problem with killing anyone who says, does, or thinks things they don't like.

Let's expect a lot of nasty remarks from the right-wing on how it's the DEMOCRATS who are the real murderers/destroyers/terrorists by pushing good people into acts of violence, along with a lot of bullshit about how Giffords somehow had it coming.

Republicans are the problem in this country. Not taxes, not immigration, not pollution, not global warming. Republicans. If they all vanished to Pluto overnight this country would find itself a paradise.

[BlueMTexpat]

353. When will hatemongers like Beck and Palin FINALLY be called out

for the terrorists that they are? It's LONG overdue.

[Majikthise]

355. Welcome to Glennbeckistan

How incredibly sad.

[JDPriestly]

357. And the Justice Department is worried about Wikileaks --

which no one would have noticed or been interested in had not so much sheer gossip been categorized as confidential and secret.

Why does our Justice Department close its eyes to what is going on?

[Beacool]

359. How horrible!!!!

There are sick people out there. So many wounded and dead, including a little girl. Why????

Too much senseless death......

x(

My prayers for the speedy recovery of all those who were wounded and for the families of those who lost loved ones.

:(

[laylah]

360. OMG...I just got off

work and saw this thread. :cry: How horrible and enraging! As always, there is so much important information here, how would my fellow DUer's feel if I were to post this whole thread on my FB page? I will wait for an answer. :grouphug:

Love/prayers/healing thoughts going out to victims and their families.

Jenn

[thisMike]

362. It's Not Palin's Fault

Palin did not instigate what happened today.
All she wanted her supporters to do was to walk up to Gabrielle Giffords, hold an automatic pistol to her head- and vote.

[The Wielding Truth]

375. Exactly! Palin is responsible for her baiting! I hate her reckless behavior!

[Pool Hall Ace]

377. What the hell is this supposed to mean?

[thisMike]

434. They Have More Than One Way To Vote

Why do these people equate voting with violence? They talk about "second amendment remedies" and getting "on Target for Victory"- with M16's. Palin could have used any symbol she wanted on her map of candidates but she said "Help us prescribe the solution" and used the cross-hairs of a gun. These people are telling their followers in a not so subtle way that there is more than one way to "vote".

[creeksneakers2]

409. No reason to believe he's even a Palin supporter

From his web postings you can see he's a lunatic.

[Skittles]

441. OMG thisMike

welcome to DU - I absolutely hear you

[WAFoti]

364. A tragic day for all Ameticans but....

I hope the Congresswoman makes a complete and full
Recovery and returns to Capital Hill.

Now to The NRA are you satisfied?
"Guns don't kill people people kill people"
Nob shat Sherlock. For all you right wingers
Get all hand guns off the Streets in all 50 States.
Chang the laws that only a handful of people
are eligible for carry permits let alone own a
hand gun!

[PavePusher]

374. And that will stop criminal violence with guns, amiright? n/t

[FailureToCommunicate]

384. Is this really the time and place to bring up your agenda?

There are other forums here for that, as you may well know.

[PavePusher]

408. I did not bring it up...

...the person I responded to did.

Note: I was having a sidebar conversation earlier about a similar off-topic subject and invited the other person to move our discussion to the Guns forum. That person conditionally agreed. I opened a post there to carry over our discussion and it was locked as "calling out" due to (I presume) aa alert by a person who did not read the referenced original posts.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=353566&mesg_id=353566

[FailureToCommunicate]

448. You brought up the 'guns are innocent' sentiment. And it's hardly an

"off topic" subject since we're following a mass shooting and killing incident, with a man using a (hand)gun.

[PavePusher]

476. I did no such thing.

And I thought the subject better discussed in the proper forum so that people could use this thread to express their feelings and support for the Congresswoman.

[Bold Lib]

484. No, post #364 brought up the NRA is evil and responsible meme.

Apparently you think THAT is an ok thing to do based off this horrendous event. But you apparently DON'T think it's ok to correct that fallacy.

Stay Classy.

[Bold Lib]

422. I think you meant to respond to post 364.

[FailureToCommunicate]

439. Nah, I got it right.

[Bold Lib]

481. Ok, then I see where you come from.

It's ok to make a political point on tragic deaths - as long as it's a political point YOU agree with. Otherwise it's out of line.

Stay classy there.

[PavePusher]

511. Hypocracy... it's not just for Republicans anymore! n/t

[benEzra]

379. Isn't it a little early to be relaunching the Culture War crap?

Not all of the victims are probably even in the ICU yet. But the repubs would love for you to go that route, as it worked very well for them back in the '90s.

For what it's worth, Ms. Giffords is pro-Second Amendment. Not that that will matter to the culture warriors.

[Name removed]

468. Deleted message

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[benEzra]

473. ALL of us are hurting.

I've been glued to CNN since and this thread since this afternoon, OK? Trying to turn this into a "hey let's bash the gun owners" fest is neither helpful nor decent.

Paul Helmke and the MSM talking hairpieces will be out in force soon enough gleefully dancing in the victims' blood. Is it too much to ask to save the "let's ban more guns" discussion for another thread?

[Name removed]

478. Deleted message

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[emcguffie]

376. From his videos, he's obsessed with literacy, grammar, and "conscience dreaming".

But I think he means "conscious dreaming", as in lucid dreaming.

A little irony there?

[whatwasthequestion]

383. Link to the Ramblings of the Shooter

Found this copy of what is purported to be a manifesto from his My Space page. While everything is still under investigation, as the writer points out, this very much appears to be the work of a mentally ill, delusional person.

http://irregulartimes.com/index.php/archives/2011/01/08/full-text-of-jared-lee-loughner-delusional-rant-on-conscience-dreaming/

[ElsewheresDaughter]

389. SHOOTER IS 22 YEAR OLD JARED LEE LOUGHNER...link to his video channels

youtube has some of his videos
http://www.youtube.com/profile?annotation_id=annotation_564778&user=Classitup10&feature=iv

[AnnieBW]

385. The Freepers must be happy today

Not only was Rep. Giffords shot, but the shooter assassinated a Federal Judge, too.

Sarah Palin has blood on her hands, and it's not caribou blood.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

405. Freepers are saying that shooter was commy bible hating liberal

Freepers are saying that shooter was commy bible hating liberal.

(Vanity) Gifford's shooter, was a God Hating, Junkie, LIBERAL!
8 January, 2011 7:26:06 PM · by DGHoodini
Reading through all the stories (Hot just from the libpervs like Daily Kod and that putata Congresswhote that withi\oput any facts blames the "right wing"... It turns out that the shooter was a Left wing raving FreakTard piece of Demn,opGenerate. He hates God, He hates the bible, he hates the Government, Hr was an English major, He believed in the crapt hat FreakPervs like Moulitasis(s?p) put out to enflame all the little pervy freaks that happily foam their mouths for his hate speech, and the hate speech of freaks like Hate Pig Shiltz, and the deviate traitor who we4nt on...

Deranged Leftist Jared Loughner's Rampage
8 January, 2011 7:21:07 PM · by Reaganite Republican
Dead are six others... including a child and federal judge <...> Into Mien Kampf and the Communist Manifesto, those who actually knew him tweeted "nuts" - "definitely Left wing" - "anti-flag" even a "pot head".

[Joey Liberal]

386. I blame Palin, Rush and Faux News. nt

[stockholmer]

393. this whole thing reeks , Loughner has something for each non mainstream group to blame

Loughner was a nutter, but was he manufactured?

Some hints are very subtle, but the endgame of this will be to further terrorize, further justify a police state, further get mainstream left and right to hate each other more and also to stigmatize anyone who bucks the system.


like Tim McVeigh, and so so many others, he is ex military (McVeigh's main doctor in prison was Dr Louis Jolyon West, the Asst head of the CIA's MK Ultra brainwashing programme) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKULTRA

I will be really curious to see if Loughner was in any Black Ops programmes in Afghanistan



there are reports of multiple suspects (remember the disappearring John Doe 2 of Oklahoma?)

http://motherjones.com/politics/2007/07/search-john-doe-no-2-story-feds-never-told-about-oklahoma-city-bombing

http://original.antiwar.com/scott/2010/04/18/murder-lies-and-the-oklahoma-city-bombing/


Loughner lists these books as favourites

1 Communist Manifesto (so the left takes heat)
2 Mein Kampf (so the Nazi fringe gets burnt)
3 Animal Farm (Anti-tyranny in the crosshairs)

he also was anti-fiat currency, so the sound money, Anti federal reserve crowd will feel heat
he espoused vague anarchist views, so they will catch hell too

its so early into this, but it already faces up as possible Black Ops by your government, it so fits the pattern

Nidal Hasan (Ft Hood Shooter), Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab (Underwear Bomber),Faisal Shahzad(Times Square Bomber) 3 of the 9-11 hijackers and many others http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_linked_to_Anwar_al-Awlaki

all had ties to Anwar al-Awlaki, who was hosted in a meeting at the Pentagon right after 9-11 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1322397/Al-Qaedas-Anwar-Al-Awlaki-invited-Pentagon-lunch-9-11-attacks.html

[PhillySane]

398. Or...

just some really quick cover all the bases work before anyone tries to really define this guy's motive. I'm not buying he was a loon or that he subscribed to all these philosophies at once. Who cares. What's really the issue here is allowing people to walk around with loaded weapons.

[stockholmer]

411. if I lived in the USA,many of the armed people I would be most afraid of are the police officers

http://freedominourtime.blogspot.com/2010/12/were-fighting-war-civilian-disarmament.html

http://dissentradio.com/radio/09_10_20_grigg.mp3

tasers too

http://www.amnesty.org.uk/news_details.asp?NewsID=17990

[tnvoter]

403. or he could just be a follower of Palin.

[DireStrike]

428. My first thought was that he was just all over the place

On seeing both the Communist Manifesto and Mein Kampf in his list, one has to wonder if he'd even read both works, or just liked to say he did.

He could be just an unstable guy with mental issues. OR it could be a carefully manufactured Security Spectacle.

[jwirr]

449. As I read through the list of books it reminded me of a list of books

for a lit class. He was an student of language and it would not surprise me that you would read at least parts of all those books.

[AtheistCrusader]

509. Atheist too.

Fuck. I'm going to be hearing about this shit from my freeper co-workers for YEARS.

[stockholmer]

519. from one athiest to another, here is a great quote to make your co-workers sqirm...

"I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

Stephen F Roberts

[colsohlibgal]

394. Latest Reports On Her Condition Are Encouraging.

The doctors seem reasonably optimistic that she will recover but don't know yet to what extent. There are reports that she was alert and talking after she was shot.

Hope and pray she fully recovers, what a miracle that would be after being shot point blank through her head.The judge of course was killed and others have died since, all at the hands of this creep.

Sooner of later the irresponsible wingnut public figures have to be held responsible for their words and deeds. They should all know that will spur even crazier nutjob people to act in a bloody fashion.

Enough with all the "2nd amendment solutions" talk, enough of putting people in crosshairs.

[JenniferJuniper]

396. Palin and Fox cannot be allowed to get away with this.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

397. And Fox news is already reporting that the guy is a commie

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/01/08/shooting-suspects-apparent-youtube-video/

What pieces of shit these Fox news assholes are. Hey Fox, YOU are complicit in this assassination.

[Name removed]

406. Deleted message

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[tnvoter]

399. this is what happens when Palin tells her followers to 're-load.'

the gunman was probably already a nutcase. Palin, Beck, Limbaugh et al are to blame.

[Name removed]

417. Deleted message

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[curiousdemo]

401. This who's Palin is........Gutless tralier trashier

[forty6]

402. OMG !!!GIFFORDS IS ACTUALLY TARGETED BY PALIN THERE!!!! Let's make

sure all the Palin lovers know this!!!!

I'm sure Palin will lose a bit more of her popularity over this!!!

[Name removed]

410. Deleted message

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[barbtries]

418. i want to see it on the corporate news programs

that she was in palin's "crosshairs" that angle went around wildly and irresponsibly discussing "second amendment remedies" and so on. my gawd. 18 people shot, 6 killed. i will try very hard to follow this story over the next days and weeks to find out about the person who massacred these people.

[forty6]

420. Good luck seeing that on Fox News and the other Fox News wannabe's

like all the other corporate shills.

MAYBE MSNBC will do it....they don't shy away from O'Reilly and the baby-killer Dr Tiller stuff...

But I'm thinking I'm glad I get my news from TYT and Democracy Now, and BBC.

[barbtries]

510. yeah i know...

media is about 90% of the problem i've come to believe.

[Name removed]

419. Deleted message

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[stockholmer]

425. Kos did NOT put a bloody RIFLE SCOPE on her district, like Palin did, ffs

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/6/25/1204/74882/511/541568

is all scapegoating anyway, until more facts come out

[Name removed]

431. Deleted message

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[Spyderama]

423. The Palin Matrix at Work

This is what I have been writing about, folks. We as Americans need to get ahead of this problem before it goes any further. We are living in a psychotic nation that desperately needs a psychiatrist!

<http://www.amazon.com/Paradigm-Shift-Matrix-Progressive-Strikes/dp/1456409328/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1294534459&sr=8-1>

[DeSwiss]

424. K&R n/t

[kestrella]

430. Someone spreading rumors that JLL was a DU member

A Republican poster on another forum is starting a campaign to convince people that the AZ shooter was a DU member.

" And more information is coming out about Loughner's political views which lean left and his membership in the Democratic Underground community. "

I registered here because I thought you should know of the kind of sick disinformation that is out there.

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parent-cafe/1067481-arizona-representative-murdered-4.html

[TalkingDog]

435. There is no proof Lougher was a DU member, just as you offer no proof

that the poster at the link is a Republican. Making assumptions (on both sides) merely stirs the pot.

But welcome to DU.

[JenniferJuniper]

436. Oh really? You registered just to spread this rumor?

It's clearly the right wing media that is instigating this culture of violence.

[myrna minx]

432. My heart is with her family. K&R

[X_Digger]

496. +1, and with the other victims' families. n/t

[creeksneakers2]

437. One book on the shooter's favorite book list was an Ayn Rand novel

titled: We the Living

Its an anti-communist novel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_the_Living

Those freepers who are making a big deal about a communist book on his reading list are jumping to unsupported conclusions. His list makes no sense at all.

[JenniferJuniper]

443. And Mein Kampf is about as right wing as you can get

[Name removed]

444. Deleted message

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[joshcryer]

446. No, it's fascist.

[Name removed]

453. Deleted message

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[JenniferJuniper]

455. Yes, it's right wing.

Have you made it through the 8th Grade yet?

[Name removed]

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[JenniferJuniper]

486. That's very nice for you, however

In Nazi Germany, private capitalist individuals owned the means of production, and they in turn were frequently controlled by the Nazi party and state. True socialism does not advocate such economic dictatorship -- it can only be democratic. Hitler's other political beliefs place him almost always on the far right. He advocated racism over racial tolerance, eugenics over freedom of reproduction, merit over equality, competition over cooperation, power politics and militarism over pacifism, dictatorship over democracy, capitalism over Marxism, realism over idealism, nationalism over internationalism, exclusiveness over inclusiveness, common sense over theory or science, pragmatism over principle, and even held friendly relations with the Church, even though he was an atheist.

[Name removed]

499. Deleted message

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[JenniferJuniper]

502. Bubye, Teabagger

Try not to let reality hit you on the way out.

[Name removed]

506. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

447. Deleted message

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[bigworld]

451. Hitler called it National Socialism to try to appeal to the working class

in Germany who regarded (regular) Socialism as quite appealing. He turned the concept on its head. Similar to what the Rightwing does does with renaming and terming things opposite what they really are.

[Name removed]

456. Deleted message

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[jwirr]

454. Once and for all Hitler cooped the word Socialist when he took over

their party and turned it into fascism. Something like how the rw repugs took over the old republican party and now the teabaggers are taking over the rw repug party.

[Name removed]

460. Deleted message

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[jwirr]

494. Like the world today Germany had many privately owned big businesses.

I cannot remember the names of them but one of the companies made weapons, etc. Also our dear prez boooosh's family did business with slave runners in one of the death camps and they were not government businesses. The government and these businesses just paid them for the people in the camps to supply labor. I do not think there was anything socialist about it. Some of our bankers were even funding them. FDR had them all tried for the crime of aiding and abetting the enemy.

[Name removed]

505. Deleted message

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[progressivebydesign]

459. I am not shocked by this in the least.

As I read more about the monster, I saw parallels to the people manning those card tables outside the post offices, accusing Obama of being Hitler. The shooter seemed to have similar beliefs. Just the other day when I had to restrain myself from flipping the card table John Birchers/LaRouche guys, they were babbling about concentration camps, etc. Unlike the Teabagger angry old white men, these are angry young white boys... who get caught up in conspiracy theories.

[Name removed]

450. Deleted message

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[JenniferJuniper]

452. He doesn't have to be a teabagger

He's a nutcase.

And nutcases listen to what their TV tells them to do....

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

466. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

471. Deleted message

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[Liberalynn]

457. Wolf Blitzer just said on CNN

that the Sherrif investigating is saying that the suspect may not have been acting alone.

[JenniferJuniper]

458. The sherrif did say that

Although usually these nuts does act alone.

[timtom]

490. These nuts almost NEVER act alone.

[JenniferJuniper]

492. I guess it depends on how you define "these nuts"

Political assassins in the US usually do act alone.

Czolgosz, Guiteau, Oswald (as far as anyone has been able to prove), Dan White, etc.

Booth is a notable exception, although most of his band was not involved in the direct events of that night.

[Name removed]

464. Deleted message

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[Bernardo de La Paz]

470. Giffords' Tucson office has been evacuated due to a suspicious package.

7:39 PM ET Suspicious Package At Giffords Office

According to KGUN: Giffords' Tucson office has been evacuated due to a suspicious package.

[sweetladybug]

489. The person who did this terrible deed is just following orders from their leader, Sarah Palin

As she says "Don't retreat, RELOAD".

[BanTheGOP]

479. Keith Olberman officially blames the Tea Party

Keith Olbermann is officially going to blame Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, and Sarah Palin in his commentary on Countdown. I am in full agreement, along with the additional incendiary atmosphere produced by the Tea Party, the manifestations of our failure to ban the GOP when we had a good chance to do so. I will be creating my own commentary this evening with my facts and recommendations.

[tsuki]

512. I blame Rupert Roo for corrupting the discourse of this nation. nt

[SocialprogressiveIL]

482. First post

This story is extremely sad. My thoughts are with all the families and frIends right now. I too was shocked at Sarah Palin's map, but since we don't know much now I'm reserving judgement. It's wrong to pass blame when we don't know the reason yet. I hope Mrs. Giffords recovers and keeps her job. What better way to show that people and ideas won't be silenced!

[nolabear]

488. A sad welcome to DU.

You're right. You'll note how upset folks around here are (inc. me) but in general there's an awareness that there's a lot to still be learned.

[cecilfirefox]

483. I pray to the gods for her, the victims, the deceased, and the family and friends. :( nt

[Stuart G]

485. Very very sad, nt.

[savalez]

491. The Sheriff says it best.

"When you look at unbalanced people, how they respond to the vitriol that comes out of certain mouths about tearing down the government. The anger, the hatred, the bigotry that goes on in this country is getting to be outrageous," the sheriff said. "And unfortunately, Arizona I think has become the capital. We have become the mecca for prejudice and bigotry." ~Pima County Sheriff Clarence Dupnik

source: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_congresswoman_shot


This is terrible. Just terrible. Fucken Horrible.

:(

[craigmatic]

507. You know things are getting bad when even the sheriff says that Arizona is getting too prejudiced.

[RamboLiberal]

493. I am so damn angry tonight

I hope the damn Repukes in congress & on the airwaves take a damn hard look in to their souls tonight - but I doubt it.

Boehner instead of cancelling votes next week ought to tell every damn Repuke get on the floor and talk about the need on their side to tone down the rhetoric.

IMHO blood tonight is on their hands and on the hands and tongues of McCain, Palin, Limbaugh, Beck, Hannity, Faux, Murdoch, and all the other RW blowhard haters!

I sincerely hope Congresswoman Gifford recovers with a good quality of life and is able to return to Congress.

And my thoughts are with all those who died today or were injured.

I'm glad this b*stard is alive so we may know what drove his hatred!

[humbled_opinion]

498. This Thread Sucks...

Why are so many making this about partisan politics? This is an epic tragedy, people are dead and maimed. Get a grip everything is not about left and right.... Some people here make me want to reject politics in total.

[JenniferJuniper]

500. Thank you, Pollyanna, and Kumbaya

I guess we should all just pretend that we aren't living in an utterly partisan charged environment that directly resulted in the tragic events of this afternoon. That will solve everything, I'm sure. Crosshairs be damned.

[humbled_opinion]

516. No...

What don't you get? The politicians both left and right would not condone this behavior! People were killed and hurt today, this is not the time for blaming Republicans or Conservative pundits for this. If you honestly believe that political rhetoric caused this then you have lost your mind and should consider re-evaluating where and how you get your information.

[JenniferJuniper]

524. It's not the "politicians" that have created the environment,

How oblivious can you be?

Limbaugh? Palin? Beck? All of Fox News?

Have you completely missed what has gone on these past few years?

It's clearly you who doesn't "get it".

[humbled_opinion]

545. First of all I dont watch that tripe

Second of all if those people you mention condone this type of behavior in any form they would be removed from the airwaves so you are guilty of some hyperbole, I think. Maybe it is you who needs to rethink your motivations, who fills your head with all these crazy ideas? Does political discourse in your world involve hatred on this unimaginable scale? The American people want us all to get along so get along or get gone...

[thisMike]

550. Right On humbled_opinion (as the young folks say)

You are absolutely right humbled_opinion. I watch The Texaco Huntley-Brinkley Report every night on my TV and they never make rude comments about politicians. I will admit that sometimes I sneak over to that Walter Cronkite fella and he can get a little iffy about the war over in the Viet Nam but then I write a letter to my congressman right away.

[rayofreason]

520. Breathe slowly into the bag...

...it will help with the hyperventilation.

Here is more info on the shooter.

http://azstarnet.com/news/local/crime/article_91db5db4-1b74-11e0-ba23-001cc4c002e0.html

Reading this does not indicate any political motive for this atrocity on the part of a wacko shooter. I guess had the DU existed 30 years ago there would be in-the-heat-of-the-moment posts about how the right wing was responsible for Lennon's murder. Certainly much that I have seen on this thread would support such a view.

Like with most things, it is best to wait until more complete and cross-checked info is available. After all, Giffords was first reported to be dead, but now she is responding to commands. And there is a search for a suspected accomplice. When (if) that person is located, more will be know. Perhaps there are other reasons behind the attack and the shooter was just a tool for (left, right, cartelistas, fill in the blank) who wanted her shot. And it would be foolish to blame any particular group until there is real evidence. After all, what if the apparent fact that the shooter listed The Communist Manifesto was used to claim that communists were behind this and that there should be an immediate dragnet and mass arrest of "communists?" That would be pretty foolish, wouldn't it? And it would tell us more about the authors of such a move than any intrinsic reality. Elsewhere on this thread there is someone calling for a legal ban on the GOP. What a moron.

So hold your fire and keep your powder dry in case that evidence does, in the end, point to a political motive that found a willing tool in a young wacko who lost touch with reality. But at this time, there is no there there.

[onpatrol98]

503. I know...

It's ridiculous to blame Palin, Beck, or Fox for what an individual decides to do. Sometimes the rhetoric on DU gets heated. Do we want DU blamed if one day one of its members blows a gasket? Of course not. It's a horrible tragedy. So many people are hurting in so many different ways. This day started as any other for a family and tonight they're suffering a great loss in the heinous murder of a child.

[mommalegga]

508. I agree.

I dont get all this rush to blame a political pov or ANY pov as this case is about a mentally unstable person. Mental illness knows no party.
If people here want to blame a political POV they should tread carefully; this guy does not appear to be right wing. So my advice would be to drop the flamethrower lest ye get burned by it.

[Taverner]

501. Thank you Sarah Palin, Thank you Glenn Beck.

May you fuckers rot in hell

[lilyrl]

513. This is what happens when you breed hate, ignorance, and fear for greed and power

She has been receiving death threats for a YEAR.

FUCKERS.

FUCKERS

[onager]

514. Puke-worthy...

From the Yahoo News report:

During his campaign effort to unseat Giffords in November, Republican challenger Jesse Kelly held fundraisers where he urged supporters to help remove Giffords from office by joining him to shoot a fully loaded M-16 rifle. Kelly is a former Marine who served in Iraq and was pictured on his website in military gear holding his automatic weapon and promoting the event.

"I don't see the connection," between the fundraisers featuring weapons and Saturday's shooting, said John Ellinwood, Kelly's spokesman. "I don't know this person, we cannot find any records that he was associated with the campaign in any way. I just don't see the connection.

"Arizona is a state where people are firearms owners — this was just a deranged individual."

Yeah, all we did was slosh gasoline around the room, then invite a bunch of crazy people in who were holding matches and lighters.

We don't know how the fire started. But we didn't have nothing to do with it.

[tootrueleft]

515. Dear God. My thoughts to the family of the deceased,

I wonder if the shooter was a glen beck viewer.

[mommalegga]

518. *sigh* Probably not....

http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/valleyfever/2011/01/jared_loughner_alleged_shooter.php

[JenniferJuniper]

527. Yeah, a "liberal" Rynd and Hitler fan

Some people will buy anything that's sold to them.

[jtb33]

530. He also had the Communist Manifesto listed...

with the rest of those titles. Look, when you get to the extreme end of either side of the political spectrum, violence is always part of doing business - whether right or left. Those on the fringes (again, left and right) that think violence is a tool to use are crazy. This guy was crazy - whether he was left or right doesn't really matter, does it? Besides, since he was caught alive, I'm sure he'll eventually open his mouth to say something. I'm curious to hear what that would be...

[Imagevision]

536. All Palin cares about is her book numbers dropping...

[Pooka Fey]

544. Well, it has finally happened. We all knew this day would arrive.

[JusticeWinsEverytime]

548. Palin's silence is guilt speaking volumes..

i have un facebooked the 7 people of my 400 friends who LIKED sarah palin.

why?
Because folks , this is nazi germany and sarah Is The worst kind of nazi.

I don't even want to be digitally connected to the kind of brainwashed and violent ignorance that endorses a Sarah Palin.

let's all do that.. unfriend the freaks who support palin.

that is a nice nonviolent action we can all do now!

[nalnn]

552. Here's hoping she pulls through

Here's hoping she pulls through with all the strength she has shown in the past: NYTimes article from last March.