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alp227 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 03:37 PM
Original message
Caligula's tomb found after police arrest man trying to smuggle statue
Source: The Guardian

The lost tomb of Caligula has been found, according to Italian police, after the arrest of a man trying to smuggle abroad a statue of the notorious Roman emperor recovered from the site.

After reportedly sleeping with his sisters, killing for pleasure and seeking to appoint his horse a consul during his rule from AD37 to 41, Caligula was described by contemporaries as insane.

With many of Caligula's monuments destroyed after he was killed by his Praetorian guard at 28, archaeologists are eager to excavate for his remains.

Officers from the archaeological squad of Italy's tax police had a break last week after arresting a man near Lake Nemi, south of Rome, as he loaded part of a 2.5 metre statue into a lorry. The emperor had a villa there, as well as a floating temple and a floating palace; their hulks were recovered in Mussolini's time but destroyed in the war.

Read more: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/17/caligula-tomb-found-police-statue
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 03:42 PM
Response to Original message
1. can't wait to see what they find. nt
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dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 03:45 PM
Response to Original message
2. To verify claims made against against Caligula
you really need to watch the version with Dutch sub-titles. :rofl:

Must confess I hadn't realised he was only 28 when he died.
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DavidDvorkin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #2
20. 28! I feel like such an underachiever!
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conspirator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Don't feel. He was already born in a golden cradle. Julius Caesar on the other hand
only became an achiever at the age 50.
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social_critic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-11 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #20
34. His grandmother Livia put him in power
Caligula was Marc Antony's great grandson, great nephew of Emperor Tiberius, great grand nephew of Emperor Augustus, son of the great Roman General Germanicus, nephew of Emperor Claudius, etc, etc, etc.

His grandmother Livia felt Caligula had a flawed character, which she could maneuver to achiever her political aims. Thus it is suspected she had Caligula's father, Germanicus, poisoned to allow Caligula to take over at a very young age.
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #2
24. But Look At Everything He Achieved!
:)
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 03:49 PM
Response to Original message
3. wow. what a historical find. I wasn't aware that he was buried in
a tomb after they murdered him.
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CatWoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-11 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #3
37. I read that he was cremated after he was murdered
and that his sisters gathered his remains and buried them???
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UTUSN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 03:50 PM
Response to Original message
4. K&R #5. Wow, I love this stuff. n/t
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stubtoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
5. Hope the grave robbers didn't make off with too much.
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SpiralHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 03:55 PM
Response to Original message
6. Republicons Declare Caligula's Tomb a Holy Site
Edited on Mon Jan-17-11 03:59 PM by SpiralHawk
Republicon's Prepare First Class Pilgrimage to Worship at the Tomb of their Special FatCat Spoiled-Brat Chickenhawk Hate-filled Roman Hero.

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Submariner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. They will brag that GW Bush is a direct descendant
and I will believe them.
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bengalherder Donating Member (718 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #6
14. No fair putting Malcolm's pic there, however!
Mr. McDowell is actually quite liberal in real life. :D
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tanyev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #6
17. Little Boots 2.
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conspirator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #6
21. Probably also draft dodger n/t
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blackspade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 04:03 PM
Response to Original message
7. Cool find.
Too bad it was discovered by a looter.
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Confusious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. They're always discovered by looters

Almost without fail.
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AlbertCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 04:25 PM
Response to Original message
10. Caligula was described by contemporaries as insane.
Edited on Mon Jan-17-11 04:33 PM by AlbertCat
There are few contemporary accounts of Caligula. Many written later were by his enemies and not that reliable when it comes to his crimes. Like Richard III and Marie Antoinette, he has been given a bad rap.

Not that he wasn't a monster, it's just all very subjective, his history.

from Wikipedia:

Scandals

Surviving sources present a number of stories about Caligula that illustrate cruelty and insanity.
The contemporary sources, Philo of Alexandria and Seneca the Younger, describe an insane emperor who was self-absorbed, angry, killed on a whim, and who indulged in too much spending and sex.<92> He is accused of sleeping with other men's wives and bragging about it,<93> killing for mere amusement,<94> purposely wasting money on his bridge, causing starvation,<95> and wanting a statue of himself erected in the Temple of Jerusalem for his worship.<89> Once at some games at which he was presiding, he ordered his guards to throw an entire section of the crowd into the arena during intermission to be eaten by animals because there were no criminals to be prosecuted and he was bored.<96>
While repeating the earlier stories, the later sources of Suetonius and Cassius Dio provide additional tales of insanity. They accuse Caligula of incest with his sisters, Agrippina the Younger, Drusilla and Livilla, and say he prostituted them to other men.<97> They state he sent troops on illogical military exercises,<66><98> turned the palace into a brothel,<43> and most famously, tried to make his horse, Incitatus, a consul and a priest.<99>
The validity of these accounts is debatable. In Roman political culture, insanity and sexual perversity were often presented hand-in-hand with poor government




"I Claudius" is a novel, y'know... and that film with Malcolm McDowell is just plain crap.
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crim son Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. He is a standout among poor Roman emporers, then.
And "I, Claudius" is a great novel, not just a novel. But you make an interesting point. Most people associate Antoinette with her supposedly heartless comment about eating cake, but don't know she was also accused of being a lesbian and of sleeping with her own son. I find her life story to be rather heartbreaking and wonder if some day I'll feel pity for Caligula. It's very hard to imagine him as anything other than batshit crazy!
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bengalherder Donating Member (718 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Well to start with most of his relatives including his father were killed by his
Edited on Mon Jan-17-11 07:04 PM by bengalherder
predesessors to the throne, and it sounds like he was reasonably sane until he suffered a series of severe illnesses about a year or so into his reign. The lead dishware and relative lack of sanitatation could have had a lot to do with it as well. It might be possible to feel sympathy for Caligula the human being.

Absolute power does corrupt absolutely and a good number of Roman emperors started out fine and grew tyrannical as they went along, however, Caligula's excesses were probably played up by his successors to make their claims to the empire more legitamite.

I always thought the horse in the senate was a good touch. Our modern senators are, for the most part, merely the posterior end and not the entire animal.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. Schizophrenia hits men in their early 20s, women in their early 30s
Occasionally you have people outside these age groups, but this is the tendency.

Remember Schizophrenia is disordered thinking. In its mild forms it can be as simple as 1+1=B (B is the second letter of the Alphabet). Most people would reject that logic, but in mild forms of Schizophrenia it is common (And what I mean by mild is when no medication is even being suggested let alone being prescribed). In more severe form it can be severe (See the Wikipedia comment below):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizophrenia

I go into the difference for Psychologist do a better job as determining the present mental state of a person then Psychiatrists. The main reason is Psychologists are trying to see what the person being examined can do today, while the Psychiatrists are trying to aid that person is living with the mental condition AND "curing" that mental condition. This is do to Psychologists coming out of the Business Community to see what a person can do, while Psychiatrists came out of the Medical Community and its efforts to cure such mental conditions.

Caligula appears to have almost all of the problems of a person with Schizophrenia AND had been to young to be a threat to Emperor Tiberius (Who had killed off his Father). Claudius was spared by Tiberius for he had severe birth defects that indicated to the Romans his unfitness for the Throne (Until Caligula was killed and the Imperial Guards found Claudius hiding and realized Claudius was the Uncle of Caligula and the brother of Caligula very well liked father Germanicus and thus of the right blood to claim the imperial throne).

People forget Tiberius was disliked for having killed off Germanicus and the Roman People then liked the idea of Germanicus son becoming Emperor when Germanicus himself could not (For Germanicus was dead). Thus Caligula played up to Tiberius and made sure he was in the best position to succeed Tiberius on Tiberius's death.

This support of the people was widespread and it took four years before anyone even thought of overthrowing Caligula. The chief problem with the Conspiracy that killed Caligula is he had kept the troops well paid (Something Tiberius had NOT done, so the troops had more money under Caligula then they had ever had since the early days of Augustus's rule almost 100 years before). Lets remember that the Legions were NOT under the Government, but retain the system that existed under the late Republic, i.e. each Legion was paid and organized by their "Dux" who from the time of Augustus on had been the Emperor (The actual Commander was the Unit's "Dux" lieutenant, the Emperor's "Legate". This was also true of the Praetorian Guard. The Emperor paid the troops himself out of his own money whenever he could (If the Emperor could not, then the Legate would, but out of the money of the Emperor).

Thus on the death of Caligula, the duty to pay the troops fell to his nearest male relative, Claudius. Once the troops were paid (and found that their continued pay was secure), Claudius was declared Emperor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caligula#Assassination_and_aftermath
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 04:30 PM
Response to Original message
11. The autopsy report would be interesting to see
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canetoad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 04:32 PM
Response to Original message
12. See the article link beneath this one?
About the optical illusion mosaic. Here's a link to a picture. Fascinating.
http://archaeologynews.multiply.com/journal/item/471
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Raine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 07:10 PM
Response to Original message
16. This is so interesting
I can't wait to hear more.
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AnnieBW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 07:54 PM
Response to Original message
18. In all fairness...
the horse was probably smarter than today's Republicans.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 09:02 PM
Response to Original message
23. Those Ships Caligula had on Lake Nimi, had some of the earliest Ball bearings known
Edited on Mon Jan-17-11 09:34 PM by happyslug
The Wheel has been around for several thousand years, but to use it on a wagon requires someway to leave the wheel rotate and carry the load on the wheel.

There are two ways to do this, the first is the method used pre-Dark Age method. You put the wheel physically to an axle, and both wheels and axle rotate. Thus you have to have something strong enough to haul the load and move the wheel but also the axle. AND the axle has to be heavy and strong enough to withstand it rotating underneath whatever load was in the wagon.

The other method is to fix the Axle to the wagon so it does NOT rotate, and then turn the wheel around the axle. This requires even more wear the the above method UNLESS you use ball bearings. The Ball Bearings roll around the axle and the wheel, transferring the weight of the wagon to the Wheel BUT not having excessive wear on the Wheel or the Axle. This is how almost all wheels since the Dark Ages have been made.

The issue is when was this first done? Records in the Dark Ages are even less then in the Greek and Roman periods of History, but we have parts of wheels and wagons that clearly show ball bearings being in wide spread use during that time period. We do NOT have that for the Roman and Greek Periods AND even the periods before the Arab Conquest.

Thus most armies prior to the Dark Ages use Oxen to haul their supplies for Oxen is strong enough to haul huge axles in addition to the Wagon and what ever was in the wagon. Horses were used for only light loads, one to two man Chariots or similar light wagons.

Before the discovery of the Ships on Light Nimi, every one was willing to accept that the Ball Bearings was one of those Dark Ages inventions (Along with the Horse Collar, Horse Shoe and Hay) that made the use of Horses possible for heavy hauling (And plowing, but it is clear that the Heavy Iron Plow was know in Asia Minor at about the time of Hannibal, then was taken to Poland or the Ukraine in the late Roman Period, and once introduced to the Slavs, the Slavs used it to spread throughout Eastern and Central Europe, replacing the pre-existing pasture system of the Ancient Germans and Celts, with a higher population Farming society, moving as far South as Central Greece, to the Elbe River in present day Germany, with one tribe making it to England all during the 600s).

Anyway, the above Horse revolution was centered on the Horse Collar (Which permitted horse to haul heavy loads AND to do plowing), Horse Shoes (Which permitted horse to get traction with heavy loads and while plowing), and hay (Which provided Horse with the Food needed to do the above heavy work and plowing).

Oxen stayed around for when it came to endurance and heavy hauling, oxen still could beat horses. One of the best example of this is during the time of the Oregon Trail. On the Oregon Trail horses/Mule trains would pull out and move faster then oxen wagon trains, but the horses and mules would be worked to death in about two weeks (Thus when Stagecoaches were introduced on the trail, the horse and mules were replaced every 20 or 30 miles so to give the horses/mules a rest). After about two weeks the Wagon Trains used Oxen would pass up the wagon trains using Mules/horses do to the horses/mules dieing of over work. Horse and mules can do heavy work for about two weeks, then need a break, oxen could go on for a long longer time period.

Thus, until the invention of the Steam Locomotive, any army (or any other large movement of people) was restricted to the speed of oxen if they wanted to be in the field for more then two weeks. If an army was careful and save its horses till speed was needed, it was a deadly combo, but if the Army used its Horses to much, the army could find itself without supplies and the ability to move. To a good degree Steam Locomotives ended this dual cycle (Horses being used to haul from rail head to front instead of hauling all the supplies the army needed). What Trains did not do, Trucks did (Even the Russian Army, the most Horse dependent army during WWII, used horses only from supply base to front, instead of the nearest rail head, trucks hauled the supplies from Rail head to the Supply base). Since WWII, horses have been replaced in almost every army. Mules are still used in certain locations (i.e. where trucks can not go, and helicopters can not go do to the fact the other side has air superiority OR the base for the Helicopters are to far away).

I go into how Oxen and Horses were replaced to show you how important Ball Bearings was. It took over 1000 years before you had something as dramatic as ball bearing axles that actually improved land transportation. It is for this reason Historians are amazed at the use of Ball Bearings almost 700-800 years before we have records of them used in transport.

Back to Ball bearings. The Lake Nimi boats had at least one statute that had ball bearings at its base. This permitted the statute to move around using a lot less power then if the Statute had to move its entire base. This is the key to Ball Bearings and why they are so important. How far did this invention go? We do NOT know. Was it a flash that was then forgotten? Was it like the Iron Plow and the Water Wheel, ignored by the Roman Elite and thus NOT spread except by the peasants talking to each other (This is how the Water Wheel is believe to have moved from the Middle East at the start of the Roman Period, but only reached Western Europe by the end of the Roman Period). Was it ignored until someone else saw it and took it home and started a social Revolution (This is how the Heavy Iron Plow is believed to have moved from Asia Minor to the Slavic people, who then used it to convert Central Europe to Farming instead of Pasture).

What else did the Roman's use Ball Bearings for? Clearly not in wagons, but anything else? More data is needed, but we do not have the data from the period in question. Ball Bearings could explain the spread of the Slaves in the 600s, the Slavs spread because they could (Also can explain why the Eastern Roman Empire, after the Arab Conquest, decided the bigger threat was the Slavs moving into the Balkans NOT the Arabs holding Egypt and attacked north not south from Constantinople). Question, Question, Questions, maybe we will find out in the future.

Horse shoes, earliest record is 510 AD (Some records exist prior to that date, but all are questionable).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe

The Horse Collar, came out of China (834 AD and was in Europe by 920 AD):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse_collar

The Heavy plough know in England by 600 AD, but terms for it tends to be Slavic in origin:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plough

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Raine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-11 04:47 AM
Response to Reply #23
31. THANKS for that info
it's really interesting. :hi:
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-11 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #31
40. Wikipedia give China the Credit, but I read Asia Minor elsewhere
And BOTH may be correct (i.e. invented about the same time, tied in with advance Iron making pioneered in China around 200 BC, but introduced into Europe about 600 AD. Europe had Iron for over 1000 years before that time period, but the Chinese Iron Making Method made more iron out of the same amount of iron ore at lower costs in terms of Source of heat and Labor.

The Chinese Iron Making method quickly became the norm after 600 AD and would remain the norm till the 1860s (When the Bessemer Steel making process was invented). In Rural areas, Chinese Iron Making methods survived till about 1900 in Western Pennsylvania (When the trees used to make the charcoal to operate the furnaces were all chopped down). Starting in the 1860s Iron was increasingly made using Coal in the form of Coke (And even today, the preferred Coal for Steel Making is the Pittsburgh Seam of Coal, which starts in Pittsburgh area of Mount Washington and goes south into southern West Virginia). The Pittsburgh Seam of Coal, when made into Coke is the closest Coke to actually Charcoal, thus its higher price over other coals (In Western Pennsylvania, Coal is imported from the West to be burned in Coal fired electric Generator plants, while the Pittsburgh Seam of Coal is shipped overseas to those buyers who want it for Steel making.

As to the Iron Plow, I read it was invented in Asia Minor, but Wikipedia says China. Now, it is also known that the plow moved into Europe with the Slavic Invasions of the 600s NOT the prior Germanic/Gothic Invasions. Also by the time of Charlemagne (c800 AD) Iron in the form of weapons were more common then they had been previously (even in the form of Shields and Armor, Roman Shield were plywood, which was stronger then the earlier bronze shields of the Greeks, most Roman Armor were also Bronze, through Iron Chain-mail was worn by Romans even at the time of the First Punic War, c250 BC).

In fact, recent findings indicate that Romans had superior Chain Mail then the Chain Mail of the Dark Ages. For Decades it was believed the Romans did NOT have Chain Mail, for it was rare to find any on any known Roman Battlefield, but in Known Battlefields of the Dark Ages it was common to find Chain Mail pieces. Recent findings shows why that was the case, Roman Chain Mail did a much stronger ring on each ring of the Chain mail then was done in the Dark and Middle Ages. In the weaker Chain Mail it was common for pieces to break off from the chain mail when hit by a sword or other weapon. This weaker design really did NOT hamper its use as armor, for the Chain would break only in small pieces at the edges of the armor (Arms, skirt etc). The person the Chain mail was protected would still be protected.

The Earlier Roman Chain Mail would NOT break on its edges thus no small piece to find on a battlefield. Until the difference in construction was found out, the explanation was Rome did NOT have Chain Mail, with the discovery of the Difference in Construction we know why the pieces do not exist (The armor was more likely NOT to shred small pieces from the arms or the Skirt of the Chain Mail).

One of the reason for the Difference may be the fact the iron used in Roman Times were more expensive and thus the buyers DEMANDED to better ring to ring connection, while in Dark Ages time protection was wanted and minor losses easily repair was viewed as a minor inconvenience not something life threatening (And since Iron was Cheaper, more people could afford Chain mail, thus cheaper version was sell-able for it was better then the alternative, heavy leather).

I bring up Chain Mail for it shows the problem with relying on Archaeological evidence, sometime we have only part of the answer. Another example of this was the recent discovery of Roman Saddles. It was a rare find, the leather had been preserved in one and only one case. In previous finds the bronze plates had been found and dismissed as some sort of trade goods. In that one find, it was discovered the Bronze Plates were plates to build up a saddle without the use of a wooden tree (The Wooden Tree of a Saddle, another Dark Age invention). Notice one little additional piece of evidence completely changed what was thought of something found in Roman Times. One of the things we have to keep in mind when looking back in history we do NOT have a complete record of that time period and new data may reverse what we previously thought.
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Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-11 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #23
36. That is a nice informative post, happyslug.
:thumbsup:
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Kablooie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 09:30 PM
Response to Original message
25. Caligula is still alive and well in the body of John Hurt.
John Hurt was the actor who portrayed Caligula in the excellent 1976 BBC TV series, I Claudius.
I've seen DVD's recently and it takes a couple of shows to get rolling but it did have wonderful performances of intriguing characters.
John Hurt was one of the standouts.
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Raster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. I, Claudius with Derek Jacobi in the title role is an absolute standout production....
...and one of the BBC's finest. I've seen it several times. I still marvel at the acting and the intelligence of the script. I've also read both of the Graves' books: I, Claudius and Claudius the god, both wonderful.
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Manifestor_of_Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-11 02:19 AM
Response to Reply #26
29. john hurt rocks.
I Claudius was an excellent series.
Derek Jacobi was awesome too.

Peter O'Toole's wife and Magenta (yes from Rocky Horror, Patricia Quinn) were in that too. All those British actors and actresses who have serious credentials. Now they all seem to be employed in the Harry Potter series.

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CatWoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-11 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #29
38. a young Patrick Stewart was in it too
he played Sejanus :)
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Raine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-11 04:46 AM
Response to Reply #25
30. That series was TERRIFIC
I watched it again and again, just love it. :thumbsup:
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Aristus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 10:32 PM
Response to Original message
27. I've been a serious scholar of Ancient Rome for years now, and I had always thought
that Caligula was cremated and had his ashes interred in the Mausoleum of Augustus. That was the final resting place for most of the emperors up to Trajan. Even Nero, I think. Nero was buried in a shallow grave after he committed suicide. But someone disinterred him, cremated him, and placed the ashes in the Mausoleum.
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CatWoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-11 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #27
39. see my comment upthread
oh teacher of mine :)
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Aristus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-19-11 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #39
41. That would be two of his three sisters.
One of them, Drusilla, died during his reign, and Caligula is often accused of having murdered her.

I knew THAT, anyway... ;-) :P
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 11:38 PM
Response to Original message
28. Caligula's tomb?
I didn't even know Little Boots was siok.

Oh, that Caligula.
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Nordmadr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-11 06:02 AM
Response to Original message
32. They could've showed us the statue. That would be cool. N/T
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SpartanDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-11 06:39 AM
Response to Original message
33. will cheney be making a pilgrimage?
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felix_numinous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-11 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
35. Ugh, let's leave him buried.
But Noooooo let's dig up the old pervert and revive some caligula mementos....
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