Police fear 'war on cops'

[RamboLiberal]

Source: MSNBC

A spate of shooting attacks on law enforcement officers has authorities concerned about a war on cops.

In just 24 hours, at least 11 officers were shot. The shootings included Sunday attacks at traffic stops in Indiana and Oregon, a Detroit police station shooting that wounded four officers, and a shootout at a Port Orchard, Wash., Wal-Mart that injured two deputies. On Monday morning, two officers were shot dead and a U.S. Marshal was wounded by a gunman in St. Petersburg, Fla.

On Thursday, two Miami-Dade, Fla., detectives were killed by a murder suspect they were trying to arrest.

"It's not a fluke," said Richard Roberts, spokesman for the International Union of Police Associations. "There's a perception among officers in the field that there’s a war on cops going on."



Read more: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41235743/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/

[defendandprotect]

1. That's why police departments are for gun control ...and ending the Drug War ....

There's isn't a "war on cops" going on --

thre is a war on humanity going on by the right wing -- and GOP/NRA is a large

part of that war!

We can also become Mexico -- which would also help the right wing take gun violence

in America to a very personal level!!

[duhneece]

11. I'd add 'intelligent, rational" as in

"That's why intelligent, rational police departments are for gun control ...and ending the Drug War ....

Bad cops are beyond horrible, but living in a time & place where there is no law & order makes me appreciate the best that can come from true 'peace officers' or 'PUBLIC safety' officers, of which I've known a few.

[bossy22]

28. police departments are not unanamously for gun control

big city departments are, rural departments are not. and thats only discussing the brass. The rank and file tend to be more pro-gun than the brass. The PBA doesnt really support gun control proposals (they stay out of the issue). In fact the SSPBA (southern states) actually signed an amicus brief in the Heller case askingthe court to find the 2A an individual right and throw out D.C.'s ban

[Kievan Rus]

33. LEAP -- Law Enforcement Against Prohibition -- cops favoring an end to the War on Drugs

They're basically to the War on Drugs what the VVAW was to the Vietnam War.

[molly77]

39. We can become Mexico.

We are already becoming service industry. Got the drug wars and gang wars too.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

42. Not all depts are for gun control

Their political chiefs maybe...

[Hoyt]

48. They will if police shootings keep increasing. The pro-gunners say more guns = less killings. BS.

The pro-gunners are already whining because they might have to walk around in public with pistols that hold less than 30 rounds. Give me a break. If they are really packing for protection/defense, they don't need that many bullets.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

53. The size of magazines is not the issue.

Fixating on it makes clear your agenda and serious lack of knowledge on the topic

If you look at the hit percentage in a gun fight, even by the "pros" 15-17 round magazines are reasonable. Novelty magazines are bulky, not concealable, and fail often.

The one to worry about is the trained shooter with a broken in and well maintained weapon that he is very familiar with and has a suitable number of factory magazines in the 15-17 capacity. However, those are not the people doing the shooting. Instead it is the crackpots and wannabes. Figure out how to stop them without infringing on my civil liberties and I will support you 100%

[Hoyt]

65. Hi-capacity mags are a good symbol for the types of guns we need to get off the streets.

Too many pro-gunners don't like them being called assault weapons -- but that is what they are. Most folks who really/truly carry for protection, use smaller guns often six -- or even five -- shooters. Other pro-gunners, are for the most part obsessed with killing machines. It truly is a love relationship, figuratively (and in some cases, literally).

I too think the issue is not the Hi-cap magazines because the issue is much more than that. But, no rational soul can explain why a person wants a hi-cap mag equipped gun stuck down their pants in Chuck E Cheeze, a bar, a park, church, schools, etc.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

66. Assault weapons is a made up term that some found politically expedient.

Assault rifle has a specific definition, which most of the weapons banned were no where close in meeting, so the anti civil rights bubbas made up "assault weapons" as a meme.

The issue has never been magazine size. Its just a false flag, and those of us who support civil rights recognize it for what it is.

BTW, when I carry, sometimes its a 92f with its 15 round magazine.

[Hoyt]

76. Carrying such guns in public is not a "civil right," and actually demeans real "civil rights."

I don't think most really care what you carry. The fact you can't walk out of your house without a gun, says enough.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

83. If you lived where I do, you would too (remote desert)

Carrying a concealed weapon for self defense is legitimate, as is self defense by using said weapon.

13-17 round magazines are the norm for modern pistols. Any knowledgeable person would not carry or use novelty magazines in a serious situation. The "10 rounds is normal" is an out and out lie.

I train mostly LBGTQ people in firearms. They are tired of being targets. Its hard to bash an armed person. They have a bad enough time being treated equally, why would you make it worse?

[Hoyt]

94. I empathize with some of those reasons for carrying. But sorry, how many folks do you need to shoot?

There are some folks where a gun might be appropriate -- although not in every public place. I also think there are alternatives to guns, but I guess when you are "tired of being targets" you might prefer to kill someone or seriously wound them rather than Taser, spray or pull out a machete. Packing guns while having a chip on your shoulder (although understandable)is in itself worrisome. But, at least you have a better explanation for carrying than most. In any event, I do not think you need to carry a gun into a crowd and around kids.

Nor do I think you need to be prepared to shoot more than 10 people. Sounds stupid doesn't it?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

110. Actually there are few effective alternatives to firearems

Tasers are bulkier, single shot, and not that effective. In some localities they are more restricted than firearms, same with pepper spray. All are less effective and do not work against multiple targets. Martial arts is a wonderful thing, but it too it more limited

Carrying a weapon does not automatically put you a chip on your shoulder. That is a wannabe thing.

!0 rounds does not mean 10 people would get shot. Other threads have pointed out that hit rates are much lower than many people realize. 10 rounds for 1 assailant is actually close to the right ratio.

I assume you would want these restriction on everyone except uniformed LEO? Active duty LEO? Off duty LEO? Retired LEO? Where do you draw the line on who could carry everywhere

[X_Digger]

69. Go for the full on blather.. Weapons of Mass Destruction!

Give it full bore, double-ought-Hyperbole until all your terms have no meaning, whatsoever!

no rational soul can explain why a person wants a hi-cap mag equipped gun stuck down their pants in Chuck E Cheeze, a bar, a park, church, schools, etc.

You mean like this?

Man Wounded in Gang Shooting Outside Chuck E. Cheese
http://laist.com/2010/10/24/man_wounded_in_gang_shooting_outsid.php

Coroner IDs man shot outside Chuck E. Cheese’s restaurant
http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2010/dec/15/man-shot-death-outside-chuck-e-cheeses-restaurant/

Phone spurs Chuck E. Cheese shooting
http://www.wwlp.com/dpp/news/local/hampden/shots-fired-outside-chuck-e-cheese

Two Men Arrested After Shooting Near Chuck E. Cheese
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/10/AR2009081002493.html

Chuck E. Cheese Shooting May Involve Rap Dispute
http://www.wsmv.com/news/14572453/detail.html

Jury Selection Begins in Fresno Chuck E. Cheese Shooting
http://abclocal.go.com/kfsn/story?section=news/local&id=7307419

Suspects sought in California church shooting
http://articles.cnn.com/2010-02-15/justice/california.church.shooting_1_church-deacon-suspects-bible-study?_s=PM:CRIME

Pastor Killed, 2 Hurt in Illinois Church Shooting
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,506820,00.html

Community grieves following Visalia church shooting
http://abclocal.go.com/kfsn/story?section=news/local&id=7640198

It's typically not in the places you mention that folks run into trouble, it's in the to and fro where problems happen. Of course, it's hard to have the ability to effectively defend yourself, when you've left your tools of self-defense in the car, or at home.

[bossy22]

61. the issue not with 30 round magazines

most gun owners will tell you that they don't walk around with 30 rd magazines; its that the proposed ban caps mags at 10- which is below what many guns carry (most pistols have standard magazines between 12-17 rounds)

[Freddie Stubbs]

71. Every single police department is in favor of gun control and drug legalization?

[here_is_to_hope]

2. Comes with the badge. eom

[right2bfree]

73. The "New Centurions" Enforcing Unjust Corporate Laws. No pity at all from us. nt

[maxsolomon]

3. Your perception is flawed, Officers in the Field.

War implies organization.

[slackmaster]

4. Isolated incidents

Persecution complex, or just exploiting the news in an attempt to coerce governments into increasing funding for law enforcement?

[Countdown_3_2_1]

22. Agreed. I see nothing to tie these incidents together. (nt)

[ixion]

5. Perhaps if they stopped their War on We, the People

the healing could begin.

Let me be quite clear: I am a pacifist, and believe with all my being that violence solves nothing. I think BOTH sides need to pull back and return to being civil.

[KansDem]

6. Agreed.

The spate of taserings, especially directed at grandmothers, children, and men without legs, not to mention the warrantless entries into homes resulting in startled residents who are shot and killed or whose pets are shot and killed, can do no more than lower respect for the police in the public eye.

I'm surprised this hasn't happened sooner...

[RKP5637]

10. I used to have respect for police, now with all of the crap that goes on I'm

quite dubious anymore of police activities and justice..

[NeoConsSuck]

21. Agreed also

I don't think there is a war on cops. Just a bad day of violence.

But cops like the ones in this video sure make things bad for the good, honest cops:

http://www.columbiamissourian.com/stories/2010/05/06/update-swat-raid-prompts-police-review-policies/

[KansDem]

24. Yeah, I remember that one...sickening

Here's another recent shooting that shows police over-reaction:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/18/utah-video-police-kill-man-drug-raid_n_810420.html

They kick in the door, see someone with a golf club, shoot him three times--killing him--then tell him to "get on the ground."

Disgusting...

[RKP5637]

7. It's self-feeding IMO. I agree so much with what you say. Also, this inane war

on drugs we have just sets up the situations for more and more violence and an extremely profitable drug culture. It all just gets extremely dumb, I just can not think of a better description than very dumb.

[chrisa]

16. No way. This has more to do with the economy.

And less funding for police departments, as well as other factors. If you think the police in any way caused this, you've got to be kidding.

This murdering nut is not "We, the People." He's a murdering nut.

[ixion]

27. Oh please...

Police abuse and brutality has been on the rise for years, and the so-called 'war' on (some) drugs have left them power crazy.

To say they're innocent is intellectually dishonest, at best.

[MellowDem]

31. The people killing cops...

are doing it not because they don't like the recent taserings or police brutality. They're either your usual criminals, or they're insane and hate the government.

I don't think any institution is wholly "innocennt", but then, I guess you could say that when anyone gets shot up they weren't innocent, right?

Nice way to justify this shit.

[ixion]

35. I'm not justifying it at all... did you read my OP?

I never advocate violence, and that goes for BOTH cops and criminals, both of which tend to settle things with violence.

[chrisa]

60. Do you really think this guy gave a shit?

He's a scumbag felon who was running from the law, and didn't want to own up to what he did.

It could have been Ghandhi coming to arrest him, and this asshole still would have shot him.

[ixion]

91. Once Again: I am not in ANY WAY justifying what this person did

I abhor violence. Period. And that goes for BOTH cops and criminals.

I have no idea about the motivations of this shooter, nor am I discussing motivations. I'm saying we need a return to civility in our public discourse if we're to avoid another civil war, because that is the direction we're headed at the moment, from what I can see.

[molly77]

40. Troopers retire on 80,000 a year in California.

Entry level cops for Apex NC app. 5 years ago app. 45,000. They drive sports cars and retire to live in mansions in the Raleigh Durham area of NC. I do not see them as underpaid at all.

[right2bfree]

75. BIL goes 85 MPH all the time. Flash the badge and off he goes, Brotherhood of Cops at work. nt

[sofa king]

43. I don't think there are "sides" here.

These aren't politically adept people pulling the triggers, here. They're deeply disturbed individuals who are bleeding warning signs for weeks and months before they strike, but there is no social safety net left to identify them and offer help.

That's certainly a result of conservative assholery, specifically dating to the day Ronald Reagan turned our insane into the streets. But I don't think it's fair to peg the cop-shooters as conservatives. They're the victims of conservatism, just like the rest of us.

[Lorien]

109. Agreed. There's a lot of corrupt cops here in Florida

I'm sure that there's some good ones too, but the bad ones are REALLY bad.

[bemildred]

8. End the drug war now. nt

[Sonoman]

9. I don't blame them. Something has changed the game.

Something has changed the game between cops and Bad Guys. I don't know if it is images of idiots carrying firearms to political rallies, ease of acquisition, idiots on the teevee inciting violence (Bad Guys aren't interested in specifics), or recidivism and the new Prison Mentality.

I don't know why, but I will guarantee that it will get one hell of a lot worse before it gets any better.

There are no coincidences.

Sonoman

[dixiegrrrrl]

13. I see it the same way.

Could be a combination of things.
But there IS a pattern.

Ore, Ind, and Fla. today.
Detroit Sunday.
New Jersery on the 19th.
6 police shooting events, in 5 days.

[Sonoman]

23. You know where I would start looking?

I would check into the shooters' past and see just how many of them have been paroled from for-profit prisons.

Yep, that's what I'd do.

Sonoman

[AlbertCat]

37. Something has changed the game between cops and Bad Guys. I don't know...

... if it is images of idiots carrying firearms to political rallies,....


Or the general public seeing people like Bush, Cheney, Libby, BP.... and so on get away with everything.

I mean, if Cheney can shoot someone in the face while drunk and nothing at all happen to him, why can't I? After all, Bush and Cheney are just good ol' boys you want to have a beer with, right? Can't I start a war too?

[molly77]

41. Iraq vets. given first priority for school to become sheriff deputies

in Wake County NC. Iraq vets do not need to be armed and on the streets right after coming back from Iraq.

[babsbunny]

12. THEN Quit voting for Republicans!!!!!!!!!!!

[AtheistCrusader]

15. But Republicans love the police. Especially when they have their boots on some

liberal protesters neck. Or picking up an anti-war protester off the ground by her hair.

[Kurovski]

30. Some Anti-government far-right-wing-dings don't. (nt)

[Supply Side Jesus]

102. I'm a cop and never voted republican

Sorry if I just blew your mind

[AtheistCrusader]

106. I bet you're a damn dirty Union member too.

Wait.. hold on.. something's not right here.

[Supply Side Jesus]

108. Lol

try to be a damn dirty union member, but our Democrat Sheriff fights against us and refuses to recognize us!

oh the irony

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[chrisa]

17. I hope you were thinking about these cops' famlies when you typed that.

[Hubert Flottz]

18. Depressions create lawlessness...

Same thing happened in the late 1920s and early 1930s. Trouble is, now the banks are being robbed by the people that run the damned things. The only people that do any major time for crimes are poor people. People are getting tired of being lied to and cheated by the people who are in charge of "Justice". Mr Thomas is a tax cheat for example and he won't even get into trouble. If you or I failed to report half a million dollars of income for six straight years we'd probably do ten years. Justice is a joke when you fail to jail torturers and murderers but put someone who can't afford a "dream team" away for years for a few pot plants.

[Webster Green]

25. Exactly!

Your post and the one after it by NickB79 (post #19) have absolutely nailed it. :thumbsup:

[NickB79]

19. Police used to be respected in this country.

Then things started to change. Some of it was not their fault. They were forced to enforce idiotic laws, like the war on drugs. Rather than stopping real crimes, they started busting kids with joints as hardcore criminals. Some of it was their fault, like widespread overuse of Tasers and some well-publicized corruption scandals. None of this was irreversible, but it hurt the institution of law enforcement.

That degraded the respect that police used to have in this country. Rather than seen as those tasked to uphold the public safety and good, they were looked at more and more with distrust and suspicion. Then, the rise of anti-government sentiment in the past 30 years sent things past the point of no return. Police were looked upon as tools of "Big Government". Urban legends started to spring up about police training to work with the UN to kick in doors, seize people's guns and usher in a New World Order. While most Americans saw this as the bunk that it was, a small but dedicated contingent took it seriously. With the rise of the Tea Party, this paranoia has been given new life and a national voice to flourish.

[Mojorabbit]

38. It is true though

that the militarization of police has commenced big time in this country. Miami police are considering getting a drone for F's sake. It was not like this when I was coming up.
Still something is really off about this spate of shootings. I don't know if it is copy cat activity or what.

[BOG PERSON]

46. "police used to be respected in this country"

i assume you are a white person.

[NickB79]

56. Good point that I completely missed.

Thank you. I don't think it changes my overall message though, because now even the white people who used to stand up for them have grown distrustful of police.

[indimuse]

20. this smellz.. n/t

[rug]

26. How many people are killed by police?

http://www.colorlines.com/archives/2007/11/killed_by_the_cops.html

[midnight]

47. Thanks for the link... One person every day in this country is killed...

[M_A]

29. too many guns walking around

guns don't kill people, it's the crazy mo-fo's carrying them that do the killin'.

I'm getting involved with building a growing group of business owners in states with lots of 'carry permits'. The goal is to ban guns from private businesses by placing a "NO WEAPONS" sign on the door and enforcing thru refusal to serve and requests to exit the establishment. Iowa just made it too easy to get a permit to carry a handgun and I will walk out of any store,restaurant, theater, etc if I see a gun on anyone other than law enforcement personnel. I will promote and patronize all who ban weapons at the door. I am a gun owner, I believe guns should be legal I DO NOT believe they should be carried around in public like pets.

edited for a stupid spelling mistake (there are probably more.)

[X_Digger]

32. And we'll do the same, let's see who's more popular?

I refuse to visit an establishment that chooses to forbid me from protecting myself, yet denies any responsibility for my safety.

Let's see how long those signs stay up.

[Hoyt]

49. By golly, let someone get shot and the establishment sued and a lot more signs will go up.

You guys who think you need a gun in public places are just wrong. And, when folks who believe public places should be free of toters can put pressure on establishments too. And they should.

[X_Digger]

51. As is their right to do so. Bully for them!

Brady tried that with Starbucks. Guess who came out on top.

[Hoyt]

52. Times are changing. If we'd enacted tough controls 20 years ago, we'd be better off today.

[X_Digger]

54. Yes, there's less crime than 20 years ago.. times ARE changing. n/t

[Hoyt]

55. It ain't because people are packing guns in public places like parks, churches, restaurants, etc.

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

86. No legitimate legal cause for action. It will get tossed out and filer made to pay fees

Sometimes the loser pays...and it can be a good thing

[AtheistCrusader]

99. Why would someone sue the establishment for the presence of a firearm

on a private citizen?

Should someone sue the coffee shop in Tacoma, Wa, where 4 police officers were gunned down by a convicted felon who illegally obtained a firearm, walked in and started shooting? I mean, after all, they didn't have a 'no firearms' sign up that would have *cough* prevented said felon from entering with a firearm, or police officers from entering the building with sidearms, to sit down and have a cup of coffee.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

45. A counter to those on the other side who boycott establishments that ban them

Your call, but right now those boycotting stores and restaurants that do not allow them are winning.

I carry a concealed sidearm off my property about a third of the time. I take care to insure that it stays concealed. However, no rig is perfect. I have been asked "Are you a cop" and my answer always is "I am retired". No one has every pressed me beyond that.

[Bragi]

57. Who are you afraid of?

Why exactly do you think you need a lethal weapon a third of the time?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

67. I go through areas where a breakdown could be lifethreatening (extreme desert)

I also prefer to keep the weapon with me rather than leave it in the car or motorcycle. So I carry it well concealed. The CCW makes it much easier to have in with my vehicle should I ever get stopped.

At other times and other places I carried daily. It was the right thing to do at the time.

[Bragi]

93. Why do you need a gun in a desert breakdown?

Do you need to shoot up a cactus? Or is there there someone after you?

Why are you so fearful that you need a lethal weapon? Most people don't have this level of fear.

Do you think you need help dealing way with your fear in a way that is less dangerous to you, your family, etc?

[AtheistCrusader]

98. You realize there are predators in various deserts right?

These are not sanitary wastelands, devoid of the food chain.


I posted this for another person, but here goes again: Firearms are, to the lawful citizen, a tool for the protection of human life.

I carry my firearm for the same reason I carry a CPR shield. I 'fear' the necessity of using a firearm to protect human life, just like I 'fear' someone around me might have a heart attack, and necessitate CPR to save a human life.


For people who ARE NOT MURDEROUS CRAZY FREAKS, firearms are for the preservation of human life.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

112. Mojave Greens for starters

I also carry a repair and survival gear. Where I often go there is no cell phone coverage or available water.

That you assume it is for anti personnel use only shows how little you know about the desert

Its not about fear. Firearms are tools, nothing more.

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[provis99]

80. very bad decision on your part.

If a cop sees you carrying a gun, you're likely to be shot by him, and the local prosecutor wouldn't press charges. You'd be dead for your silly 2nd Amendment rights.

[AtheistCrusader]

81. I've been doing it for years.

No cop has ever bothered me. Not once.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

85. Far from true. There are too many plain clothes or off duty LEOs for that to happen

First of all, if you carry (and cops do off duty), you know what is out there in terms of rigs. You also get fairly good at detecting them. If I am in a mall, I usually spot 2-3 people carrying, and those are only the obvious ones. Carrying it stuck in your pants is for wannabes.

If I get stopped by a LEO (in or out of uniform), they will show me their badge and then ask what I am carrying. They know it is most likely a weapon and where, but it is the required script. I could be another LEO so at that point it is always calm and professional. You keep both hands in plain sight, tell them what you have, where it is, and where the permit is. They will then ask you to retrieve your permit which you do and show it to them. They then thank you and its done. Been through that a few times. Always polite and respectful on both sides.

Any other myths you need debunked?

[Bragi]

95. Why are you so afraid of everyone?

You seem to be one of those unfortunate minority who sees threats and danger everywhere, and who thinks they need lethal firepower to protect them in ordinary contact with their neighbors.

So how did you come to be this way? Do you think you should perhaps get help to overcome your unreasonable fear of other people?

[AtheistCrusader]

97. Unreasonable to you perhaps.

Part of it seems to be your apprehension of what a gun is 'for'.

For some of us, it is 'for' the protection of human life. I also carry an airway, first aid kit, and a cpr shield. I keep up my red cross CPR/First Aid certifications, just like my CPL license, and firearms practice.

It's just one more tool in an array of tools and skills that I might need to protect another human from harm. Anyone from just another person, to a police officer in need of aid.

We actually have a specific statute for immunity for people rendering aid to a police officer, up to and including excusable homicide. Pretty much a worst-case scenario, but rest assured, I would not turn my back on any person in need.


I have the same 'fear' of others with nefarious intent, as I do 'fear' that someone around me might conk out and go into cardiac arrest, necessitating tools, and skills to save a life.

Still unreasonable?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

113. I also have fire extinguishers and life insurance too

Hope never to need them them either. They are tools nothing more

Having personal firearms in the home has saved my life.

RKBA supporters are not a minority.

I also notice that you are unable to answer the questions I pose and have resorted to personal attacks and insults...very telling

[madrchsod]

34. univision had a 10 minute news story on the shootings in mexico...

and the usa. i wish i could understand what they were saying!

[Lions_fan]

36. There has been a war on "civilians" by police for years

All cops aren't bad but the majority are. Even if the bad apples are a small minority the ones that know about the bad apples are the majority and they do nothing about it. Their loyalty to the blue wall of silence is more powerful to their loyalty to the oath they take to protect and serve the citizens. Sorry if i don't shed a tear for a couple of cops killed who probably abused or killed, or knew of abuse and deaths of citizens and did nothing. Karma is a bitch and i live in Detroit and i know for a fact how crooked every single Detroit police officer is

[right2bfree]

74. Amen to that. I'd like to see US cops with no handguns like NZ cops. nt

[The abyss]

44. I clearly recall this "cop war" hype from the early/mid-70s

The big scary at that time was for patrol officers to be cautious of an ambush when pulling over vehicles with an upside down flag sticker located in the rear window of cars.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

50. "What they really fear is a real life Mr. Clark"

That is a quote from a old friend who trains cops and does other anti terror stuff in a major western city. It was a reference to a Clancy book where a retired SEAL goes rogue and starts taking out drug dealers, pimps, etc. Mike's nightmare scenario is such a person with silenced 22 rifle. Untraceable and uncatchable by even the best methods. It the police were lucky enough to catch someone like that and conviction would be a coin toss. The Death Wish movies are along the same lines, but less believable. The police can not abide vigilantes and will go after those defending themselves rather than let any support for vigilantism be presumed.

Wannbe bad asses and cowboys are not the real threat and never were.

[AngryOldDem]

58. In the Indianapolis shooting...

...the guy who they arrested for it should not have even been out on the streets in the first place. He was out on parole and he committed a robbery in December. He was arrested for that and put in the city jail, but wires got crossed with this PO and he was not remanded to the state system. The city had no choice but to release him, and here we are. A cop fighting for his life.

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kolesar]

64. routine, hardly.

chill out

[Mortos]

68. Read any post regarding use of force or a police shooting

and see how many people here post scathing hateful things about "all cops." I am chilled.

[Lions_fan]

70. Most cops are bad

Cops know who the bad cops are but they don't do anything to get them fired or disciplined. Looking the other way is just as bad when you took an oath to uphold the law.

[Name removed]

88. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lions_fan]

101. And just like they did during Hurricane Katrina

[Mortos]

100. What do you base your blanket statement on?

Have you met "most" cops and are able to judge them on that criteria? Or have you read a study that supports your allegation. Statements like yours, ignorant opinions as fact could well be contributing to an increased hate of cops. Why comply with lawful orders when you are probably going to be beaten up or shot anyway? Might as well kill a cop. After all, they are almost all bad anyway.

[Lions_fan]

107. Did you read my explanation?

Did you question any of these people who say most cops are good if they've met MOST cops? No you didn't. Do they have studies that support their allegations? I know from experience. Do you think that when cops get caught it's the first time they've done it? Do you think no one in the department knew about it? If most cops know about department corruption, which they do, and do nothing about it that makes them complicit therefore also corrupt.

[Prometheus Bound]

72. -1 for a ridiculous, over-the-top accusation.

[AtheistCrusader]

82. You might notice some posts were deleted.

[Moral_Imagination]

87. Ive never met a cop that i have liked...

Here is suburban VA of all places the cops shot a guy for betting on football games a few years ago... And they didn't even press charges on the pig.

[Skittles]

89. I've never met a cop I didn't like

[Mojorabbit]

92. I have

for sure. Ex BIL. Gives me the creeps just thinking about him.

[right2bfree]

96. Current BIL: Creep, Liar, Cheater. Bully. And he's just the tip of the iceburg. nt

[Dan]

77. Maybe we are seeing the impact of the fraying of society

There will always be those on the fringes doing bad things...

There will unfortunately always be a "few" bad apples within the police department, and the "few" that turn a blind eye to the unjust actions by the bad apples. I remember back in the sixties in a major city - the police were shooting people and seemed to believe it was their divine right : one day, enough was enough and people started shooting back. Everybody dies.

When society has plenty of work or jobs available, then those that are on the edge are able to function, provide for themselves, and in some ways contain or keep in check the potential irrational behavior. As more and more are being dropped from their economic security, when local and state governments make decisions on the backs of the poor & middle class, people, some groups on the margin start to act in ways that are not quite sane.

As more people are marginalized in our society - without hope, without some method to vent the anger - then what we have seeing, maybe just the beginning of what we will become.

And not to attack the veterans of these wars of choice - but that chicken is coming home to roost too. Cutbacks in veterans care and support, no jobs, and limited skills - what are they do? As a nation, we now have more people than jobs (not addressing the issues of that) and we seem to lack the political will to do the right thing. Combined with the proposed budget cuts - to deal with the deficit (as long as it doesn't touch the tax breaks of the rich) what is a person to do?

College students with tens of thousands in school loans, working at minimum wage; older people laid off and no hope for a return to the middle class life - which they expected was their right; loss of benefits, loss of income combined with increases of productivity on the backs of those too afraid to complain (at least they have a job)... what is the breaking point, how much pressure can a society or a person take, at what point are the stresses more than we can successfully manage?

It's not the gun...thats just a tool, its the finger on the trigger and the mind in control of that finger.

My thoughts... and I am not even touching on the legal actions of those that incite via the electronic waves...

[Rex]

78. Great, another war that will cost trillions to fight

and put us that much further into a police state. Just what we need.

[windowpilot]

79. I remember Seattle (Capital Hill) WTO 1999

Karma Police

This is what you get
This is what you get
This is what you get when you mess with us~Radiohead

[DeSwiss]

84. Bad Karma - K&R n/t

[6000eliot]

90. Sounds like an excuse for a crackdown.

[Supply Side Jesus]

103. the best of DU always comes out

Karma....cheering for the death of people....absolute indifference......absolutely disgusting. Ashamed to give money here

[Renew Deal]

104. I think the "war on cops" assertion is ridiculous.

Someone might want to look at the economy, military vets that have lost hope, and the easy access to guns for crazy people.

[Bragi]

105. Officer deaths stats show no increase in cop killings

http://www.nleomf.org/facts/officer-fatalities-data/year.html

[MilesColtrane]

111. I declare a war on "the war on ___".

It is a reflexive, stupid, and hyperbolic phrase used to inflame the worst in people.

[yurbud]

114. I thought this was going to be about budgets!

same thing. Republicans do with budgets what thugs could only dream of doing with bullets: wipe out half a police force with the stroke of a pen.

[applegrove]

115. It all the guns out there.