Sectarian strife flares in Egypt, 13 killed

[Yo_Mama]

Source: Reuters

CAIRO, March 9 (Reuters) - Thirteen people were killed in violence between Egyptian Christians and Muslims, the health ministry said on Wednesday, as sectarian tensions that appeared to evaporate in the country's revolution resurfaced.

The health ministry said 140 people were wounded, state media reported.



Read more: http://af.reuters.com/article/egyptNews/idAFLDE72810920110309?sp=true

---

Totally sad. This is the result of a protest by Coptic Christians of the earlier attacks on the Helwan church.

[Warpy]

1. Reminder: this was going on when Mubarak was in power

and happens there periodically.

It's nothing new, in other words. It's deplorable, but has nothing to do with the state of the country post revolution.

[aquart]

2. Yes. It does.

Coptics and Muslims stood together to bring down Mubarak. If they can't find a way to stand together again, they will lose their revolution.

[Warpy]

3. The enemy of my enemy is still my enemy

once the immediate danger is over and I notice he hasn't changed himself to suit me during the course of the revolution.

This is thousands of years old. It has nothing to do with the revolution.

[Alamuti Lotus]

15. well, they're not exactly enemies

if I want to go back a ways, the Coptic Catholic Church stood with the Muslims against the Crusaders (being bitter enemies of the Roman Catholic Church and European proto-imperialism at the time), were very effective (though not universally) in the struggle against European imperialism, etc etc....the Egyptian & Syriac Coptics formed the backbone of leftist resistance to imperialism and zionism (two sides of a coin, now that I think about it) that later supported Nasser and Arab nationalism. The sectarian conflicts were primarily promoted by the Sadat-Mubarak regime and the Saudis as a way of keeping it about the symbol on your necklace as opposed to the money the rulers have in the bank and keeping the people divided in the face of the zionist enemy. Nice to see the military keeping that fine tradition going.

[Yo_Mama]

5. Yes, and the last couple of years it has been really bad.

I think a lot of people were hoping that the violence would die down as a result of the revolution.

It still may. There have been a lot of protests in response to such incidents jointly by Muslims and Copts. This is not what a lot of people in Tahrir Square were hoping for, that's certain!!!

[nalnn]

4. Seems like

The perfect opportunity to move past these ancient hatreds. The revolution that is. Of course given this and the Int'l Women's Day debacle in Tahrir Sq. it's not likely.

[JanDutchy]

6. Throw the net at the other side of the boat said a man standing on land: overview

I wrote the title because, when you place an article you have also to have the knowledge of it.

This morning I placed this content,Source: AP

CAIRO (AP) — Clashes between Muslims and Christian in the Egyptian capital killed at least six people, security and hospital officials said Wednesday.

They said the clashes took place late Tuesday night and lasted several hours. The fighting involved the use of guns, clubs and knifes, they added. The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak to the media.

The clashes began when several thousand Christians protested against the burning last week of a church in a Cairo suburb by a Muslim mob following a deadly clash between Muslims and Christians over a love affair between a Muslim and a Christian.


Read more: http://www.ctpost.com/news/article/Officials-6-killed-i...
---

My opinion remarks:

"over a love affair between a Muslim and a Christian"

I know the times that the same kind of clashes - between a roman-catholic and a protestant lover - (with or without GLBT-feelings)leads to murdering, death, suicide and excel from the group.


---

Now I see the topic-thread speaks of 13 people ( any number is too much)

But I dislike it when untruth, might become 'truth ' . ' 'I use because that's shows that it is an un-throut. Inconveniënt?

Yes, because judgment without knowing facts leads to stigmatization. I only have to point on the ridic investigation on the Christian-Muslim debate in your country which is full of hate.

I'am very disappointed

[Yo_Mama]

8. If I'm understanding you...

A) First report was 4 dead. Then your count. Then this count of 13. That's the official Egyptian government count of dead. Let's hope it stops at that.

B) There was a thread about the Helwan incident a few days ago when it was first reported, but people didn't want to believe it and the thread was locked.

C) The scope and breadth of violence in Egypt is nothing like anything in the US since the civil rights clashes in the 60s and it is becoming far worse than even that. I posted this link to a report on the last two years of religious (sectarian) violence from EIPR in the prior thread:
http://www.eipr.org/sites/default/files/reports/pdf/Sectarian_Violence_inTwoYears_EN.pdf

It's not just Copts. In one of those incidents, a Bahai was attacked.

The protest over the Helwan incident which caused this latest violence was because the Coptic church was destroyed, and to build a church in Eqypt, the Copts have to get permission from the government. So it is not as if they even have the legal right to rebuild their church which was destroyed by an angry mob.

And the radicalization hearings may be stupid, but no one's going to be killed because of them. What HAS been going on in Egypt is that the government basically doesn't enforce laws against this sort of violence. I quote from the report I linked above:

60. The repeated closure of cases involving sectarian violence, the choice of reconciliation over prosecution (even in cases where this is illegal) and the acquittals issued for all such crimes have made impunity the rule in these crimes. As a result, sectarian violence and the ensuing losses had increased by late 2009 and early 2010. In short, assailants feel a sense of victory twice: once when they are able to carry out their criminal assaults against a weaker party and again when the state stands beside them and protects them from any punishment for their actions. By the same token, this impunity leaves victims feeling like strangers and second-class citizens in their own country. First they are attacked simply because they are Christians and then the state does not bring them justice; it does not even stand by as a neutral party, but chooses to stand with the assailants against them.

Nor do I post this as being against Muslims. There is a growing swell of protest among many Egyptian Muslims against this sort of thing. Many of the protesters in Tahrir Square risked their lives rather bravely, hoping to see a new day. May it come true.

But there are also segments within the country that don't want to see women have their rights under the Constitution or these other minorities. I think this should be publicized, because ignoring it leaves all those who are trying to change things in Eqypt without a voice internationally. I have been reading Egyptian bloggers for years, all of them Muslim, and there are A LOT of Muslims trying to change things. I have also been sickened by their reports of police beatings, etc, and the attacks on women in the street.

[femrap]

7. Did you see what

happened to the "Million Woman March?" The males hurled insults and violated them.

Sometimes I think this whole MENA revolution has been OK'd by TPTB. Why? This creates a Power Vacuum and TPTB want the Muslim Brotherhood or Clerics to step in. Why? The ultimate WW3...The Crusade of Xtian against Muslim. And of course the US has to protect Israel.

I've hoped I would be wrong. But if the people of Egypt, Libya, etc. continue to fight EACH OTHER (civil war), who does that help??? Arms dealers, for one. And Goddess knows that one of the few things that the US exports. TPTB sell to both sides....thus becoming richer.

And then the MSM starts screaming about 'Muslims killing Xians in Egypt.' And people now are so easily manipulated by their religion or patriotism.

I believe the women of Egypt and the women of Islam are capable of removing their chains of oppression...they're the only ones who can.

[Yo_Mama]

9. Not as bad as it was reported some places.

Try this one:
http://bikyamasr.com/wordpress/?p=29941

I think they are dead on about the clash between the women's march and rural men. There is a distinct rural/urban dichotomy in many areas in Egypt.

[femrap]

14. Thank you for the link...

ignorance is everywhere. I wish they had enjoyed a better turn out...but as the reporter said, The March was at a time when women are having to 'make a living' or take care of someone else....you know, women's unpaid work.

[Yo_Mama]

16. Yup

In any case, I do think that many Egyptian women are very serious about this and that they will keep pushing. I was interested to hear some Tunisian women talking about their desire to keep a relatively secular state with religious freedom and rights for women.

[nalnn]

11. Sadly

There is room for sectarian as well as misogynistic conflict over there.

You are right that the women of the Arab world are the only ones that can free themselves and I hate it for them. Not because of the freedom and rights they could attain, but for the blood that is yet to be spilled.

[femrap]

13. I think of the women here in the

US who worked to get The Vote. They would go to horse races and when the horses were racing, they would run out onto the track and block the finish line....just to bring attention to how important it was for them to get The Vote. Some of the jockies would try to run them over.

What bravery.

Susan B. worked her entire adult life and never got The Vote.

Women of the Arab world face such daily oppression. But they are the ones who can and will fight it. It took me a long time to realzie this...but I still hate to see them suffering.

[thereismore]

10. Fuck. Not good. Emotions are high, people are tired. Who benefits? nt

[nalnn]

12. It all makes so much sense now!

:sarcasm:


--From the holy book of islam--

009.029
YUSUFALI: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.