US IT CEOs: Need more H-1B visas

[OhioChick]

Source: Times of India

Mar 11, 2011, 12.40pm IST

WASHINGTON: More than 60 CEOs from Silicon Valley have descended on Washington to meet lawmakers and members of the Obama Administration and apprise them on issues facing the technology sector, in particular H-1B visa and tax reforms.

TechNet, a bipartisan policy and political network of CEOs for promoting the growth of the innovation economy, said in a statement that it supports a complete overhaul of the nation's highly skilled immigration system to better reflect the realities of today's global economy.

This could be achieved "by increasing the number of H-1B visas available to foreign-born workers, speeding up the employment-based green card application process and ensuring that foreign-born students who graduate with advanced degrees from US colleges and universities are able to stay in the country instead of sending home to US competitors," it said.

The TechNet executives are meeting with senior Obama Administration officials and an array of bipartisan Congressional leaders to advocate for a robust innovation policy agenda comprising three critical areas: improving the nation's education system and human capital support; fostering a globally competitive business climate, including comprehensive tax reform; and driving investment for clean technology and 21st century energy solutions.

Read more: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/tech/news/software-services/US-IT-CEOs-Need-more-H-1B-visas/articleshow/7678409.cms

---

Meanwhile.....

U.S.: H-1B workers outnumber unemployed techies

http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9133529/U.S._H_1B_workers_outnumber_unemployed_techies

Recession Rocks IT Profession

http://www.govinfosecurity.com/articles.php?art_id=2066

[Matariki]

1. How about putting money into education in the US, asshats?

[apnu]

3. or training... and they're still asshats. (nt)

[Bardley]

22. there is not, nor has there ever been, a 'shortage' of trained workers

doesnt matter how many times the 'shortage' lie is shouted, it will never be true

[FreakinDJ]

5. We have MANY trained workers - OUT of WORK to fill that job

[CatholicEdHead]

6. Yes we do

I get contacted from time to time from Indian recruiters for contract positoins based in the US. Based on what I heard through networking groups job hunting they just interview Americans to stay legal while the preferred candidate is a Indian already here.

[primavera]

66. If only that were an option!

You're right, we hire H-1Bs because we don't want to have to pay taxes to invest in education, whereas places like India do invest extremely heavily in their educational systems, allowing them to produce highly trained graduates who aren't encumbered in student loan debts to their eye teeth. Unfortunately, this being Amurika, we don't believe in those commie notions of educating our people, so our students have to pay a king's ransom to private entities in order to have a space in a vast lecture hall with 500 other students. The education sucks and the students are totally buried in debt at the end of the process.

Since we're not interested in fixing the underlying causal problem, nor are we willing to do anything that might piss off corporations, the choices we have left are to either hire people from those countries that do subsidize education, or we watch as our corporations outsource their jobs to those countries. I'm not crazed about either option, personally, but I don't see us taking the steps necessary and incurring the expenses involved in really fixing the problem and, of the two realistically available crappy choices, at least the H-1Bs pay taxes and buy goods and services while they're here. If the jobs are outsourced, then it's a 100% total loss of both the job and all of the taxes and consumer spending that accompanied the job.

[ChromeFoundry]

72. Tell us about India's education system again....

Tell us about the study from UNESCO. Where...
- Only 61% of Indians are still in school by the time they reach age 10
- High school drop out rate is over 39%
- 44% of children between the ages of 7 and 10 could not read even a simple paragraph.

Tell us again about the vast differences within states and between social groups how the caste system strongly determines if you even attend school.

They are doing such a bang-up job over there that it sure sucks to be an "Amurikan"!

[primavera]

73. No doubt

But they're still cranking out huge numbers of highly trained IT engineers.

[ChromeFoundry]

76. We would too...

If kids could afford the education. Most of the H-1Bs I have worked with over the years with CS degrees, tell me that spent a total of ~$900 USD for their entire college education. If our schools cost that... then the market would be flooded with too many engineers.

Fact is, corporations will find any excuse to increase their profits. Simple rules of supply and demand show the true picture... and I'm not seeing these same corporations that are bitching, offering engineers $150-200K salaries.

[primavera]

79. We are in total agreement - n/t

[OhioChick]

75. Not entirely so....

"whereas places like India do invest extremely heavily in their educational systems"

Lack of quality education hindering India’s growth

http://www.livemint.com/2009/08/11115840/Lack-of-quality-education-hind.html

"allowing them to produce highly trained graduates"

Looks Like Visa Program For Science & Tech Grads Isn't Really Being Used For The Best & Brightest

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20101119/03105511943/looks-like-visa-program-science-tech-grads-isnt-really-being-used-best-brightest.shtml

Let's end the H-1B best-and-brightest nonsense

http://blogs.computerworld.com/lets_end_the_h_1b_best_and_brightest_nonsense

"at least the H-1Bs pay taxes and buy goods and services while they're here"

India sending 30 Billion home

http://www.rediff.com/money/2009/mar/07bpo-worries-grow-about-obamas-outsourcing-policies.htm


It's all about the cheapest labor...

H-1B visa holders paid less in US

http://www.hindustantimes.com/News-Feed/nm16/H-1B-visa-holders-paid-less-in-US/Article1-147259.aspx

[primavera]

84. You really ought to read the articles you post more carefully

The "India sending 30 billion home" article you reference to challenge the fact that H-1B workers pay taxes states that millions of Indians worldwide - of which the handful in the US in H-1B status are but a tiny fraction - send home 30 billion. Your headline is therefore misleading and, in any event, it does nothing to undermine the fact that Indian nationals who are here on H-1Bs pay taxes and pay rent and buy groceries and gas for their car and all of the other expenses that go along with living.

Your "Lack of quality education hindering India" article speaks about inadequacies in general education, but doesn't say anything about the quality of the graduates of the country's computer science programs, which constitute the flagship of India's educational system and which produce graduates whose credentials are widely respected.

Your computerworld blogger article addresses an article prepared for the Center for Immigration Studies, the alleged "think tank" branch of FAIR's consortium of racist anti-immigrant organizations who all share the same board members and funding sources, mostly the ultra right-wing Scaife Mellon Foundation and the nazi eugenics foundation, the Pioneer Fund, whose stated goal is to carry on the good work of Joseph Mengele.

Look, if you just want to be mad about something, great, I can relate, I do the same thing myself vis a vis the right-wing: I believe absolutely any conspiracy theory from any source that makes Republicans look bad. but, if you really want to understand the situation with H-1B program - which, incidentally, I am the first to admit is not without flaws, just not quite as many flaws as you would have us believe - you should consider some more impartial sources.

[OhioChick]

92. Your Logic

Labels anyone that sides with US workers over allowances of corporate greed (the Libertarian/Republican way) is somehow racist, anti-immigrant and ultra right-wing. Thanks for the links to back up your opinion...:shrug:

[ChromeFoundry]

93. as Norman Matloff stated....

"As a long-time Democrat myself, let me state it bluntly: The Democrats are not any more sympathetic to American programmers and engineers than are the Republicans. The only difference between the parties is that the Democrats pretend to be sympathetic while the Republicans are openly hostile. BOTH parties are hopelessly in league with their corporate campaign contributors."

Right-wing or left-wing...really doesn't matter. The government shills are on the side of big business, not the interests of the US workers. We can now add Obama to those ranks as well. He has backpedaled on all of his campaign promises on outsourcing and the h-1b program reforms.

[OhioChick]

97. Agreed....

Found this of interest early on:

India Inc. gets White House meeting on H-1B visas

A delegation from one of India's largest business groups visited Washington last week to make a case for the H-1B visa program, among other political topics. And it was a group with enough clout to meet with top White House officials.

The meeting likely would have gone unnoticed had it not been for reports in the Indian news media.

http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9130258/India_Inc._gets_White_House_meeting_on_H_1B_visas?intsrc=hm_list

I'm pleased that Durbin, Grassley and Sanders have been on this issue for years now...

Senate's H-1B foes begin new attack

The the senators wrote, "We are deeply troubled that DHS has no idea how many H-1B visa holders are working in the United States at a time when millions of Americans are unemployed."

http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9207458/Senate_s_H_1B_foes_begin_new_attack

[Lydia Leftcoast]

123. While only about 40% of its people finish school, India has a surplus of

university-educated people and no jobs for them, so they are eager to export the problem to us.

(This is the same reason that the Mexican government is always urging looser immigration laws. They have more people than jobs.)

I am sympathetic to the individual immigrants, but the governments of these countries are passing their unemployment problem on to us rather than fixing their own economies.

[primavera]

100. Oh, that's what was missing!

A slogan! You misquote dubious sources and anyone who calls attention to that is unfairly labeling as racist the saintly champion of the worker against corporate greed. A.) You haven't established yet that you are "siding with US workers" - for all you know, you could be inadvertently harming US workers. B.) Whether or not you are, in fact, such a righteous champion of the downtrodden, your advocacy would be more effective if you didn't misquote dubious sources in support of your positions. C.) At no time have I said that you are a racist, nor have I said that the H-1B program was perfect or beyond reproach, those are still more misquotes. If you feel so passionately about this topic, perhaps you should try to educate yourself a bit more about it, or, at the very least, don't misquote marginal sources and simply hope that no one will notice if you spout enough emotionally provocative slogans.

[ChromeFoundry]

104. Help me catch up...

Did something get edited here, and I missed it? Your post seems rather heated, and I have no idea what you are talking about. I pretty much agree with Grassley and Durbin's bills on H-1Bs... It's not a perfect solution, but a step in correcting the program. And for the most part, I agree with the so-called dubious sources referenced in the previous posts. I've also agreed with you in a few other areas on this thread. I love a good debate (both reading an participating) - But honestly, I have no idea where you are going after reading this post.

[Skittles]

106. you have no clue

NO FUCKING CLUE

[primavera]

109. Actually...

... with graduate degrees in law and in public policy and nearly 20 years of experience in the immigration field, I think I do have some clue.

[Skittles]

110. LOLOL

:rofl:

I have 31 years in IT and have long worked with and trained offshore "talent" and that by FAR trumps all your fancy-ass "experience"; you are what we call an "offshore whore"

[primavera]

112. Yet I don't feel the need to laugh at others' experience

So I guess that makes being an "off shore whore," whatever that may mean, not such a bad thing. If the only lesson that you have learned from your 31 years is that immigration is a simple matter suited to easy solutions and slogans, perhaps you have not learned as much from your experience as you believe.

[Skittles]

118. LOL

every offshore whore I know thinks its "not such a bad thing". That's because they're making money off of it and the future of America be damned. Bite me.

[primavera]

119. Spoken like a true intellectual

With such thoughtful commentary and witty rejoinders, who could question the compelling authority of your position? :eyes:

[Skittles]

120. CERTAINLY NOT YOU!!!!

:rofl:

[primavera]

121. No indeed

Rest assured, the primacy of your position of vulgarity and hysterical laughter faces no challenge from me!

[Skittles]

122. *yawn*

I am forced to deal with offshore whores at work but off-work, I can fucking CUT THEM OFF. Over and OUT!!!

[mrdmk]

2. This is just sad, poor little CEOs cannot have all of the money

:+

[Phlem]

38. ...from his bonus

unless he ships out all jobs from his IT department.

Let's see, more US workers replaced by underpaid staff. Hmm, less money collected from taxes, so the rest of the working class can make that up. He gets his bonus. Does that mean the tax payers just paid for his bonus?

Say it ain't so!

...maybe it is.


-p

[FreakinDJ]

4. Ya - Why the FUCK would we pay US Citizens to do that job

[nebenaube]

7. Enough already!

So sick of this bullshit!

[sinkingfeeling]

8. Then why is IBM letting people go at RTP?

[slavenck]

9. I have plenty of unemployed IT friends...this is crap

More H-1B???

Hire the unemployed IT workers in the US first!!!

[City Lights]

10. Time to outsource CEOs!

:nuke:

If only I ruled the world...

[No Elephants]

131. Have you seen the sitcom Outsourced?

[BenzoDia]

11. This is a tough one. My industry is highly competitive and often looks to bring talent

into the U.S. to fill an insatiable demand.

We need better educational opportunities and training for Americans in some cases.

[ixion]

15. it has nothing whatsoever to do with skill sets, and everything to do with compensation

please don't further the myth that it has ANYTHING to do with education.

[BenzoDia]

19. I'm talking about my specific industry, and not IT has a whole.

And for us, it has everything to do with skillset.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

45. We are in that boat looking for people with language skills.

Our frustration is finding people with useful language skills, and contrary to popular belief having taken French in middle school or knowing how to proposition women and order beer in several European languages isn't what is typically considered fluency. Although invariably that is what they call it on their resume.

We can find Chinese speakers with the skills were looking for fairly reliably in the US, sometimes Spanish but not always but everything else is more or less a black hole.

Our other area of difficulty is people with European legal and accounting backgrounds. Believe it or not you can become an accountant in America without learning the French tax code.

[sledgehammer]

39. Actually, more than compensation it has to do with commitment

The majority of H-1Bs are paid in line with anyone else hired at that position. There is a significant amount of abuse though, and that's concentrated heavily in the "body shops." And there is some abuse at corporations as well.

However, the biggest advantage to companies is that H-1Bs can't easily leave the company and are basically tied up for 3-4 years or more. Companies take full advantage of this. Companies have no problem paying them the same, as long as they stay for a long time. Many H-1Bs also tend to worry less about things like promotions, work life balance, etc. mainly because they don't have other options.

If the restriction on moving between companies for H1Bs was taken away, the scenario would be totally different.

[ixion]

43. Actually, that is not commitment, it's slavery

and that's the way many of the companies treat their H1-B's. I've seen this first hand.

Anyone who commits to a corporation is a fool, because they will NEVER reciprocate, unless you happen to be a CEO.

[sledgehammer]

48. Yes, I was using commitment in the legal sense

i.e. you are "committed" to working for X number of years. Not in the sense of personal commitment.

I totally agree that anyone who personally commits to a corporation is dumb. You can do as much work, but when it comes down to it you are just an employee ID number.

But my point is that this legal "commitment" is the greatest reason companies (especially the large ones) want more H-1Bs, much greater than the cost factor.

[primavera]

67. There's been a lot of talk about that in the policy community

The problem is that the whole H-1B program is predicated upon the notion that a specific employer needs a specific skill set to perform a specific job at a specific location. And you can see from this thread and so many others like it, there remains the widespread perception that the program is unfair to US workers. If you eliminated the required linkage to that specific job and simply let H-1B nonimmigrants go work wherever they pleased, the belief is that the heads of the program's critics would simply explode.

[No Elephants]

132. Maybe it has a little to do with education.

What % of seats in our institiutiions of higher learning are reserved for foreign students? Quite a few, in the Northeast, anyway.

And don't our tax dollars subsidize those institutions?

[Abukhatar]

21. we need better education

instead of whining how about start by helping get higher scores in math and science - we pay too much for athletes ad entertainers and not enough to teachers

reality is in the tech industry if you don't have the knowledge base and the education, you don't qualify

[Bardley]

23. if we need 'better education', then why are the foreign workers going to school HERE?!?!

there has ALWAYS been a SURPLUS of 'STEM' trained workers, PERIOD

we do NOT need more 'education', we need LESS BLATENT DISCRIMINATION against CITIZENS!!!!!!!

[Abukhatar]

25. becuase our kids are dumbed down

they come here because they are more motivated, and have the skills to soak in what colleges are teaching - our kids are so bombarded with jershey shore, charlie sheen, football basketball and a family unit that don't spend enough time on getting kids focusing on the proper areas - we ranked very very low in the world in science and math and that's a fact - when you have high school graduates barely able to solve basic calculus questions, how can you expect them to learn engineering principles

[Bardley]

27. bottom line is, there's a SURPLUS of STEM trained kids

quit spouting the 'education' straw man propaganda

[BenzoDia]

28. Dude, in my particular field, we can't find enough qualified people to fill spots.

If someone had the right skills, they could apply tomorrow, and in a few weeks they'll be in the office next to mine.

[Bardley]

31. i've never respected the opinions of someone who addresses a stranger as 'dude' nt

[BenzoDia]

33. lol, okay, friend.

;)

[Abukhatar]

36. LOL -Dude I'm with you - a lot of engineers including myself use 'dude' a lot

[Bardley]

40. you dont need to address someone as 'dude', 'friend', 'ace', 'sport' etc

if your are debating in good faith

[Patiod]

62. BenzoDia - can you be more specific?

It might help the conversation.

Do you work with people who have physics PhDs? Because if you do, then yes, we do not have enough Americans with that sort of training right now, and it's not like you can get a physicist up and running in a few months. I used to do research for an educational publisher, and it's scary how few physicists we're producing in the US.

On the other hand, US Citizens are being laid off in a host of other areas, and if the tech CEOs just want to find workers they can pay less to, fuck them.

So we can have a more productive conversation if you specify exactly what sort of people we're short on.

[BenzoDia]

101. Sure thing.

My industry does not care if you have a PhD, Masters or Bachelors. It can help get your resume noticed, but that's about it. One of our top developers (way above myself) did not attend a university. We just need applicants who can perform the work up to a certain quality level. As I mentioned elsewhere, we simply cannot find enough qualified people. Our universities are pumping out graduates that fit the requirements on paper, but it's a different story when we interview them.

Me personally, I had the hardest time getting a job right after I graduated from my university. I did not know my stuff, so I was unemployed for a while. But I took a job as grocery store cashier (with a Bachelors of Science in Computer Science), and studied on my work breaks, after work, even between customer check-outs. My school had not prepared me properly, so I had to make up the difference on my own.

A little side note, an old coworker hit me up a few weeks ago. He switched industries but is still a techie. His company is hiring and the salary range made my eyes bulge out of my sockets. All the applicants need to do is be personable and pass their technical tests. They're having trouble filling those spots as well.

[Patiod]

113. Thanks for the claification.

I don't have any skin in this particular game - my skills are more old school (market research) but my brother was laid off several years ago. I suggested certification "boot camp", and my father offered to pay.

His state was offering people in his industry re-education, so instead, he opted to go with the state's offer of an associate's degree in comp sci, which offered one of the lower-level certifications as part of it (sorry - I'm not fluent in the jargon). End of story, he's now working retail for minimum wage.

When you say you studied your ass off, I'm assuming you're talking about these various certifications, or no?

What could the average US tech worker or recent graduate do to get themselves up to snuff? (it's too late for my brother, but I'm still curious). What should the country to doing to get our people up to standard, vs looking overseas?

Thanks for keeping the conversation civil. These issues aren't black and white, and we should all be interested in finding out more about the shades of gray which are involved when we have someone who actually know something about the topic under discussion.

[BenzoDia]

114. I was really studying just to learn the things that my University did not teach me, not for any

certification. I graduated with a pretty solid GPA, but the interviews were not going well. Usually interviewers just give you (or at least me) the cold shoulder with no explanation. Finally, one straight up told me I was weak in a few areas and that I needed to focus on those. It stung a bit to hear this, but he was right.

I think many U.S. schools need to:
1) Raise the bar a lot higher. Students should having working knowledge of the subject, not just bullet points on their resumes. Microsoft/Apple/Google/etc will not be impressed unless you know your stuff inside and out. And, they're all fighting over the same small pool of qualified candidates.

2) Help students understand where that bar is exactly. We go to school b/c we don't know this. I don't believe a lot of my professors actually worked in the private sector before teaching. Some were covering material that they found fascinating and not what the job market was asking for.

3) For comp sci, students need to understand the difference between writing a program that just does the job, writing one that is optimized for speed, and writing one that is optimized for memory. From what I've seen, Microsoft doesn't care that one can just do the job, they wanna see it done using the fewest possible resources (or at least an explanation of the trade-offs).

Also, students need to take more personal responsibility. Don't just finish your assignments and go play frisbee golf and party. Start-up your own hobby projects in your area of interest. Go to professional forums and ask for advice. Don't let your ego hold you back from learning. If someone burns you, at least consider what they're saying. Don't just automatically fight it.

[Sonicwall]

44. I'm a qualified tech analyst and a consultant

I can telecommute easily! My salary is quite reasonable. $60-70k range. I want vacations, benefits, medical, dental, eye paid for. I have over (gasp) 13 years of IT experience.

Isn't that so HARD to ask for?!

[boppers]

49. Yes.

You are as skilled as a high school drop-out.

[primavera]

65. Relocating also gives immigrants an advantage

You may graduate from a good school, possess the skills required for a job, but if the company that needs your skills is on the other side of the country, you may not want to uproot your life, leave your family and friends behind, and move to a new place. In contrast, if you're an immigrant, you've already decided to move halfway around the world, at which point, one place is pretty much as good as another, so you can go wherever the job happens to be.

[Abukhatar]

29. Fact - US high school kids score LOW on Math and Science

then explain why our science and math test rank very low?

stop trying to position my argument as a talking point - i am just pointing out a fact and a path to a solution - stop pretending our kids (as a whole) can compete in the world stage in math and science - we will continue to perpetuate this deficit if we don't admit the problem and move to a solution

[OhioChick]

42. Myth.....

College enrollment in computer science, engineering on the rise

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/2009-03-17-engineering-computer-enrollment_N.htm

The Science Education Myth

Forget the conventional wisdom. U.S. schools are turning out more capable science and engineering grads than the job market can support

http://www.businessweek.com/smallbiz/content/oct2007/sb20071025_827398.htm

[Abukhatar]

47. dont use 4 year old data here's a more recent one

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125552998655384945.html

Fewer than four of 10 fourth- and eighth-graders are proficient in mathematics, according to a highly regarded federal test given in early 2009, adding to recent evidence that the U.S. drive to become more economically competitive by overhauling public education may be falling short.

[ChromeFoundry]

55. Don't try to use fourth graders as the competition

maybe they are allowed to work in China and India for slave wages. They cannot apply for an H-1b here.

Here is something a bit more recent:

Posted February 14, 2011
AP Science and Math Enrollment Surges
More high school students are getting college ready through AP courses

Though recent studies have suggested the majority of American students lag behind foreign peers in math and science education, a report released last week highlights the positive strides U.S. public schools have made in advanced math and science education during the past decade.

The number of Advanced Placement test takers—and high scorers—in public high schools has increased significantly since 2001, according to the College Board's "7th Annual AP Report to the Nation." High school student involvement in advanced math and science courses, in particular, has surged. In 2010, 312,803 pubic high school seniors had taken a math AP test at some point in high school, up from 166,905 students who had in 2001. Science fields also saw a strong boost in AP test participation; 288,554 public high seniors in 2010 took an AP test in a science discipline in high school, more than double the 134,957 seniors who had taken a test in 2001.

...

And domestic students who succeed in advanced placement science and math courses have higher proficiency levels than most foreign competitors, according to an often-cited report from 2001 released by Boston College's TIMSS Center.

Source: http://education.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/education/high-schools/articles/2011/02/14/ap-science-and-math-enrollment-surges

[primavera]

116. Good source

Urban Institute does very solid work and they're fairly nonpartisan. Good choice, that definitely is a study worth taking seriously.

[Bardley]

30. stimulus to 'create jobs' while rigging the labor market against citizen workers leads to national

bankruptcy and massive unemployment

the fact is, BOTH parties are committed to spending massive amounts of money on a problem they have NO INTENTION of solving, these tech CEOS want the problem larger, not smaller, and they want it larger so they hold all the cards

it's like driving with your foot on the brakes and the gas, all you do is burn up the gas, engine, transmission and brakes

it is the EXACT same thing!

[Abukhatar]

34. These tech CEOs focus compete in delivering technology

stop lookign at this in overly simplistic way - it's not all about reducing costs - I've been in the tech industry for close to 30 years - the way to grow your business is about innovating and coming out with new products - only employees with the know how and innovation can get you there

do you think Apple would be content with iPad 1 and keep reducing the price and lowering it's cost? No is short order competitors will come out with something better - ipad 2 is here and now with more innovative features - a result of technology not necessarily just cost reduction

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Aerows]

54. The problem is pay

they don't want to pay anything. There are plenty of people to do the job, but that's okay - you do it for minimum wage - I won't.

[OhioChick]

60. Communication skills are also vital

we need better education

instead of whining how about start by helping get higher scores in math and science - we pay too much for athletes ad entertainers and not enough to teachers

reality is in the tech industry if you don't have the knowledge base and the education, you don't qualify

Things like punctuation, capitalization and proper grammar are very important in tech fields.

Just saying. :shrug:

[sendero]

96. Moronic libertarian bullshit.

.... it's not about SKILLS its not about EDUCATION it is ABOUT SALARY.

Why don't you shut the fuck up if you don't know what the FUCK you are talking about?

[raouldukelives]

12. Can we get some H-1B CEO's?

Who will work for half price?

[somone]

13. Unemployed Americans come first. Period.

No buts ands or ifs.

[boppers]

50. Yay, A Whig, or a No Nothing.

Hint: we don't do that now.

[ixion]

14. No. Just plain no. H1-B visas and outsourcing are destroying the IT field in the US

it needs to stop.

[primavera]

74. Is there even an IT industry left to destroy?

I honestly can't remember the last time I saw a computer or electronic device that wasn't made in China by guys who make way, way, waaaaaay less than H-1B workers in the US make. I don't know, H-1Bs may have some impact upon what's left of the US IT industry, but it seems like a drop in the ocean next to the jobs that have been lost through outsourcing to third world sweat shops.

[ChromeFoundry]

83. Unfortunately, IT software and services

don't require a country of origin tag to be affixed to it. There is no way to gauge how much of the US IT industry has been destroyed by a lot of different forces.

[avaistheone1]

16. Those CEOs are huge lying sacks of crap.

We have families and cities that have been turned upside down by giving our IT jobs to these H-IB Visa workers.

k&r


Is there any lie to big that they won't tell it?

[Bardley]

17. they would NOT make up something like this, the shortage must be very real

there has always been great hesitation in the tech community to ask for more immigration, so you know the need must be great when they do

[Bardley]

18. in other news, Tony the Tiger is urging people to eat Frosted Flakes-tm

and you know he rarely does that

[blackspade]

20. US workers are more than capable of filling

these positions.
The issue for these corporate assholes is labor costs.

[boppers]

51. US workers who know about IT?

I need a programmer who speaks PHP and Ruby.

[ChromeFoundry]

61. I know of at least 10 qualified (PHP, RoR, Java & C++) to fit that spot

Of course, they would expect to be fairly compensated (not bargain basement H-1b salaries) for their skills.

Problem is... they won't talk to pesky, annoying recruiters that only understand the name of the different languages. Most recruiters cannot properly screen candidates because all they do is look for is a keyword-match against a database of resumes. Recruiters that actually participated in the field can ALWAYS find excellent candidates. Good recruiters have a network of people in their target placement area which they have placed in the past. If your recruiter doesn't have this...there is an obvious reason why your spot is not filled.

Replace your current recruiter; If they cannot find these individuals... plain and simply put - they suck at their job.

[boppers]

94. Recruiter actually isn't the problem, location and talent pool is.

It's a bit in the backwoods of Oregon, and you have to be blindingly amazing to get a telecommute spot. They've already soaked up *all* of the best in their fields within a 50 mile radius, and currently recruit all across the west coast... but you have to be the kind of person who is willing to move into a outdoors recreation town. (Bend, Oregon).

Oh, and not RoR, (or PHP on some other framework), they need Ruby and PHP folks of the caliber that can *write* such frameworks (the framework is very much custom). The latest effort to find talent involves sponsoring a Ruby conference, which serves a two-fold purpose: Getting a bunch of talented Ruby folk in one location, and letting them make an informed decision about the location and work culture:

http://ruby.onales.com/

As far as recruiters go, I have run into that story before, where they didn't really know their field, but in this case, it's a different issue.

[ChromeFoundry]

95. I'd have to say

that I don't think the answer to the company's decision to locate in the middle of nowhere, is to bring in h-1b workers to fill the positions. If you offer enough incentive, there are many Python or Ruby bit-heads willing to relocate to areas like this... the more remote the better!

I ask around through my circles and see if I can help you find someone. I hate to see a good job get left on the table because of lack of exposure.

[boppers]

98. The company was basically founded by Silicon Valley refugees who wanted a different lifestyle.

That being said, a lot of H1-B folks might be unable to mesh with the culture as well. It's very much an outdoorsy bit-head's dream, more so if they like beer and caffeine... and they're hiring more than just bit-heads:

http://www.g5platform.com/g5_careers

[U4ikLefty]

91. Wow Boppers...you are anti-US worker as well?

awesome

[HughBeaumont]

117. Very much so.

That's why he's floating in the RedX Toilet with the rest of the job-offshorer fluffers.

[Bardley]

24. The plain stark truth is, this party supports blatent discrimination against citizen tech workers

and they do it because they get MONEY for it

i want to vomit whenever i hear any party official lecture about 'discrimination', because they SUPPORT it, PERIOD

[CLANG]

26. We're fucked. So what else is new?

[AngryOldDem]

32. It never fucking ends, does it, OhioChick?

:nuke:

Gotta stay competitive!

[Texano78704]

35. Aren't these the same clowns...

who are behind reductions in spending for education?

[Sonicwall]

41. No, you don't dumbass.

Just because you can pay H1-B jerks cheaply doesn't mean that you can't hire more Americans who have been out of work forever and a half.

I'm underemployed and underpaid for the last 7 years. I want a real job. Something that I can support my family with.

I think you need to let go of the concept of 'maximizing profitability' and making your workers happy. Remember, happy workers are productive workers.

You hire H1-B's, you get shit.

[KamaAina]

46. Or how about this? They could use the existing allotment to fill their actual needs

instead of as a white-collar bracero program. :eyes:

[Zorra]

52. "Some days it's not even worth chewing throught the restraints".

OhioChick, that's hilarious. Thanks for the laugh.
:hi:

[No Elephants]

133. +1 One of the best tag lines I've seen since I started posting on boards

[Aerows]

53. There are plenty of people to do the job

...they just don't want to pay them anything. Let's import people in for slave wages to do the jobs we can export.

[treestar]

56. If we could just get rid of H-1B visas

The economy would roar back to life, the illegal immigrants would all go home, English would become the national language, outsourcing would stop and the factories would move back from China, AIDS and cancer could be cured, you could get a very high paying job in IT, the wars would end, poverty would be eradicated, unemployment in areas other than IT could continue (but that's OK), the environment would be protected, global warming would end, and there would be no more terrorism and Israel and the Palestinians would make up and coexist peacefully.

This one issue is the only one that matters, if people could just see that!

[Bardley]

59. i have never understood why people choose to go to threads of issues they consider unimportant

just to say the issue is unimportant

you've really got to have a lot of time on your hands, to do that

[ChromeFoundry]

63. If we could fit some of these people with one of these...

...less of a chance for them to insert their head were it shouldn't belong.

[primavera]

78. If you want to have a private chat...

... you could always try email or, if you wish to have a public discussion limited to only those who will share and reinforce your views, there are plenty of anti-immigrant websites out there. This being a public forum open to all, you just might have to endure people having opinions that differ from your own. :shrug:

[ChromeFoundry]

82. I appreciate the invitation...

but i usually don't give out my email to people I don't know all that well.

[OhioChick]

64. Pssst....

Immigration lawyer.

[primavera]

77. Right

Obviously someone whose opinion should be discounted as they couldn't know anything from dedicating a lifetime to learning about immigration. Far better that this discussion be limited to those who get their opinions from right-wing, high school drop outs who have anti-immigrant blogs.

[ChromeFoundry]

80. or...

dedicating a lifetime to learning about immigration

Could also mean, dedicated a lifetime in finding loopholes in the current laws for their own personal gain.

[primavera]

85. Truly there are some lawyers like that

... but you don't find many in immigration law. Frankly, it doesn't pay well enough to satisfy the lawyer who practices chiefly for the money. If you want to get rich in law, you do tax law or corporate law or class action litigation, stuff that supports either a very high hourly rate or offers a big contingent fee pay off. Immigration doesn't even come close. Clients can't afford to pay more than a comparatively low rate and there is no such thing as a contingent fee in immigration. No immigration lawyer expects to get rich practicing immigration law and the vast majority of the lawyers I know are very conscientious and ethical practitioners. That is, of course, not to say that there aren't a few sleazes out there (there are always sleazeballs in every profession, why should immigration law be any different?), but, by and large, they're few and far between, and certainly not representative of the majority of immigration lawyers.

[ChromeFoundry]

87. I think there are a lot more than you think...

for example, Microsoft is hiring (of course)...

Imm. Compliance Attorney Job
Location: Redmond, WA
Company: Microsoft
First posted: March 06, 2011

Job Category: Legal & Corporate Affairs Location: Redmond, WA, US Job ID: 746125-35102 Division: Legal & Corporate Affairs Immigration Compliance Attorney The Global Migration Group in Microsoft’s Legal & Corporate Affairs (LCA) division is looking for an experienced immigration attorney to join our Redmond-based team. The ideal candidate will play a key role in deploying and maintaining industry-leading approaches and best practices in compliance for Microsoft’s immigration-related programs. The scope of this role includes program oversight of U.S. and international immigration compliance.

http://immigrationattorneyjobs.com/jobsearch/display/92219010?xp=opk4vAyGizwZcdX8nb!8JNDteVZg3ucwyg2JqhAZEsAcM1moRnCBmWAPd2J7Z0ZvRNzMklwHi8mZZLlFv3E!Y3F3PwFYwF9zgKRQv2NVU6tcW5V8X!iWfikO8d5dwBc8FYV8vRGWpkMbUGK7Gj9vrUzUfQ23RZerNn19fLLBHEmZ5IMZuqmOIdhqhnCYcgOq

...

And they don't exactly earn chump-change...

The Average Salary of an Immigration Attorney
Employment-based immigration attorneys often work at a mid- to large-size law firm or work in-house. Most major companies have in-house legal departments, meaning that the companies hire attorneys as employees. Attorneys who handle employment-based immigration cases can earn an annual salary over $100,000.

http://www.ehow.com/about_5368345_average-salary-immigration-attorney.html

Agreed, there are many other areas in law where someone could earn more. But that goes for any field. And this field is fairly specialized, offering less competition for positions. Someone of foreign roots would certainly understand the process and loopholes better than an individual that never had to go through the system in order to find employment in the US.

[primavera]

88. Actually, I'd agree with you about Microsoft

They have a horrendous track record when it comes to immigration stuff and they get away with it because, every time the government challenges one of their petitions, Microsoft immediately hurls a hundred expensive lawyers at the problem, burying the government in red tape until the government finally learns its lesson and just rubber stamps anything Microsoft wants. Truly, they are assholes and their ability to get away with the shit they pull is one of the flaws in our immigration system. But most companies don't have the resources to act in such a heavy-handed way vis a vis DOL and USCIS; most companies will get denials and will get audited periodically.

I suppose it's possible to make 100K+ in immigration law, but, honestly, I've known a great many immigration lawyers and the only ones I've ever met who made anything close to that were the aforementioned assholes working for Microsoft...

[ChromeFoundry]

89. Yep, MS really knows how to game the system! 100%

...in agreement with you there! All of the companies gaining the bulk (top 75%) of the H-1b applicants are right beside the likes of MS.

[primavera]

102. That I can't say

You certainly could be right, I just don't know. The people I know who have received H-1Bs have worked for smaller companies, universities, research institutes - hardly sweatshop kinds of places. But of course, my experience is purely anecdotal, so could be way off base. But I'd want to see some credible stats showing that as great a percentage of H-1B recipients as you suggest are employed by megacorporations as unethical as Microsquid before I accept that your information is any less anecdotal than my own.

[ChromeFoundry]

103. Here you go...

FY 2009:

WIPRO LIMITED 1964
MICROSOFT CORP 1318
INTEL CORP 723
IBM INDIA PRIVATE LIMITED 695
PATNI AMERICAS INC 609
LARSEN & TOUBRO INFOTECH LIMITED 602
ERNST & YOUNG LLP 481
INFOSYS TECHNOLOGIES LIMITED 440
UST GLOBAL INC 344
DELOITTE CONSULTING LLP 328
QUALCOMM INCORPORATED 320
CISCO SYSTEMS INC 308
ACCENTURE TECHNOLOGY SOLUTIONS 287
KPMG LLP 287
ORACLE USA INC 272
POLARIS SOFTWARE LAB INDIA LTD 254
RITE AID CORPORATION 240
GOLDMAN SACHS & CO 236
DELOITTE & TOUCHE LLP 235
COGNIZANT TECH SOLUTIONS US CORP 233
MPHASIS CORPORATION 229
SATYAM COMPUTER SERVICES LIMITED 219
BLOOMBERG 217
MOTOROLA INC 213
GOOGLE INC 211
BALTIMORE CITY PUBLIC SCH SYSTEM 187
UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND 185
UNIV OF MICHIGAN 183
YAHOO INC 183
AMAZON GLOBAL RESOURCES INC 182
THE JOHNS HOPKINS UNIV MED INSTITU 179
DIS NATL INSTITUTES OF HEALTH DHHS 175
IBM CORPORATION 170
APPLE INC 168
UNIV OF ILLINOIS 162
UNIV OF PENNSYLVANIA 162
YALE UNIVERSITY 159
UNIV OF WISCONSIN MADISON 154
STANFORD UNIV 150
HARVARD UNIVERSITY 145
CUMMINS INC 141
TEXAS INSTRUMENTS INCORPORATED 141
MCKINSEY & COMPANY INC US 140
UNIV OF PITTSBURGH 139
EPIC SYSTEMS CORP 133
NVIDIA CORP 130
SYNTEL CONSULTING INC 129
CREDIT SUISSE SECURITIES USA LLC 128
COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY 124
BAYLOR COLLEGE OF MEDICINE 120

The complete list can be found here:
http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9142152/List_of_H_1B_visa_employers_for_2009

[primavera]

107. Okay, but are all of these guys sleazeballs?

Absolutely, there are nationals of other countries working in the US as temporary professionals in H-1B status. The question I thought we were trying to address was whether their employers acted in bad faith with any frequency in employing such people. Many of the entities on your list are universities. I've helped a number of university professors to get H-1Bs and, at least imho, appropriately so. For instance. I once helped someone get an H-1B to teach Urdu at a university. He was a native speaker, native speakers of Urdu are hard to find in the US, and, as a native speaker, he was uniquely qualified to teach it and that benefited the students. Should I feel guilty because I helped him get an H-1B? Could you teach Urdu as well as he did? If you could and wanted the job, I would have advised the university to hire you instead, but no one spoke up and university needed an Urdu instructor, so we got him an H-1B. Do you think there's some reason why we shouldn't have? I guess I'm trying to point out that there are many legitimate purposes served by the H-1B program. Even in software design, many companies make money by marketing their product to other countries, to which end, they will hire software localization engineers who are native speakers in the languages of the countries where they wish to sell their product, to produce localized versions of the product. If Nvidia or whoever hires an H-1B worker from Finland to create a Finnish version of their product, they can sell more product and hire more people to make more product, thanks to having tapped that new market. In such an instance, hiring the H-1B worker may help create jobs for US workers.

Of course, not every H-1B serves such a positive purpose - no argument. But that cuts both ways: not every H-1B serves as sinister a purpose as many here would seem to be suggesting. The question still unanswered to my mind then concerns the proportion of legit uses of the H-1B to sleazy uses. No program is 100% perfect, so that there are some abuses troubles me, but doesn't necessarily delegitimize the entire program. If the program is abused a substantial amount of the time, then that's a different story and you just won a new convert to your cause. But it's not clear to me that a substantial percentage of H-1Bs are, in fact, being misused. We live in a shrinking world with an increasingly globalized economy - tapping the experience of other countries, I believe, is often a worthwhile goal that can ultimately strengthen our economy and create more and better jobs for US workers. At least some of the time when it's not being used simply to undermine wages. So the $50,000 question remains: how often are those visas being used appropriately and how often are they being abused?

[OhioChick]

81. I wasn't aware

That "The Times of India", "ComputerWorld", "Techdirt", "The Hindustan Times" or "Rediff" were right wing anti-immigration blogs.

[sarcasmo]

57. Tell them no more, show some common sense Obama.

[Bardley]

58. the problem is, he does understand the issue very well

the problem is his choice of the position to take

[Vinee]

68. US IT CEOs: Need more profits

That headline makes more sense now.

[AzDar]

69. Full (or nearly) employment for Americans before any H-1B visas are issued.

So sayeth AzDar. :thumbsup:

[sarcasmo]

70. I second the motion AzDar.

[Rex]

71. I wish nothing but unemployment for the CEOs; outsource THEIR job!

From a part time IT manager that can never lose his job to outsourcing; I say - fuck you to all that hurt America by shipping jobs overseas!

FUCK YOU!

[GSLevel9]

86. translation: CEO's want more Masters Degree educated IT folks to work for $30k/yr

[SayitAintSo]

90. Bingo.

[Newsjock]

99. These are the companies of TechNet

http://www.technet.org/leaders/member-companies/

These are the companies that are openly giving the middle finger to America's scientists and engineers, all to save a few bucks and line their own greedy, sleazy pockets with the difference. Some of the members might surprise you.

[Kat45]

105. WGBH???!

Huh?

[lovuian]

108. this is so wrong and so dangerous to national security

plus we need the jobs

[NuttyFluffers]

111. "waah, cheap labor, waaah! why can't i have slaves, daddy! i want slaves now!"

there there, veruca, daddy will get you cheap labor slaves desperately clinging to their work visas, just be patient!

[faz]

115. If you go to the top universities of USA

you wound find majority of the Ph.D candidates are foreigners.

The industries simply couldn't find enough well-trained Americans to do their high tech jobs.

[boppers]

124. "foreigners"

I love how people pretend that they aren't racist.

"I'm not a racist, but they're *foreign*"

[mainer]

130. by "foreigner," maybe he just means non-US citizen

it could also stand for guys from Ireland.

[boppers]

137. You're right, I should have said "nationalist", to be more accurate.

Mea culpa.

[No Elephants]

134. No one outside the U..S. is white? And no one can have a purely economic

objection to things like work visas and offshoring, given how many people on the planet are people of color?

Riiight!!!

[boppers]

138. See #137 eom

[johnroshan]

125. Thats a major truth a lot of people are unwilling to admit around here.

Not just PhDs, even graduate courses in Engineering. I went to SUNY, Stony Brook for my graduate degree in EECS. The number of international students(Indians and Asians) easily outnumbered the number of Americans pursuing graduate studies in Engineering.

However, the H1B VISA isn't used just for those high tech jobs... Maybe the program started with that intent, but it is certainly not the case now. People with very little credentials such as some unknown certification in India get jobs in IT through recruiters and consultancies. This abuse needs to be stopped. It even prevents highly skilled individuals from entering the USA(VISA caps), damages the perception of talent pool of the immigrant's country, and on the overall, creates a clusterfuck by throwing out available US workers.

John.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

128. How do you know they weren't American-born?

[johnroshan]

141. I studied with them. Most of them take a trip home for the summer...

Is there any credible source as to the percentage of international students in graduate degree courses in the STEM area? Most statistics only point out the total enrollment in college level, which obviously would tilt the scales showing more Americans. As far as I've seen and heard from my friends in major Universities around the US, international students outnumber Americans in PhD and other graduate courses in the Engineering field.

[No Elephants]

136. More like major bs. See Reply 132. Americans don't have a prayer of getting those

slots. When you add foreign students (majority of slots in some places) and affirmative action students, only a few seats are left. As a female, I may have gotten the benefit of part of that equation, though I don't know. However, I have a very smart son who will not.

[johnroshan]

142. International students pay full tuition.

They don't get any subsidies from the state. Can you please lead me to any credible source where it states that Universities have more slots for international students in the PhD and graduate level courses? I don't think that is the case.
John.

[No Elephants]

135. See Reply 132. Americans do not even have a shot at those slots.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

140. That post offers nothing but conjecture.

Perhaps posting some concrete figures would help your point.

[DainBramaged]

126. This is why this country is so fucked up

[sarcasmo]

127. Right on ^ .

[mainer]

129. I've heard that Nokia US is hiring quite a few.

so says a friend within the industry. They're hiring IT guys from everywhere, including Europe, which is not a low-wage group of people. But they can't find enough locally.

[ljm2002]

139. "to better reflect the realities of today's global economy"...

...i.e. to better allow them to continue breaking the back of the American work force.

There is no shortage of trained IT professionals in this country. With the current economy you can bet your boots they can find U.S. citizens to do 99.999% of the available jobs, with as much or better technical expertise than what the so-called "necessary" H1B's could do.

I am not trying to talk down about H1B employees. Over the years I have worked with many individuals from around the globe, including a large number of Indians who were here on H1B visas. They had the same range of skills and ability in general as did the U.S. citizens that I worked with.

But how on earth can these CEOs justify increasing the number of H1B visas in the current job climate? I don't believe for one single solitary minute that there are not highly qualified U.S. people in the IT industry to do these jobs.

[w4rma]

143. These CEOs are paid very well to lie convincingly. (nt)