Emotional witness describes horror outside sweat lodge

[Judi Lynn]

Source: CNN

Emotional witness describes horror outside sweat lodge
By the CNN Wire Staff
March 11, 2011 9:50 p.m. EST

Camp Verde, Arizona (CNN) -- The eighth day in the trial of a formal spiritual retreat leader charged with manslaughter after a deadly sweat lodge ceremony concluded Friday with emotional testimony from the roommate of one of the victims.

Self-help author and James Arthur Ray is accused of three counts of manslaughter in the deaths of three people who were in the sweat lodge for the purification ceremony. If convicted, he could face up to 10 years in prison on each count.

Witness Beverley Bunn, who roomed with victim Kirby Brown during the five-day retreat in 2009, went through an exhaustive examination Friday, recounting all eight rounds of the sweat lodge purification ceremony. Each round lasted 10 to 15 minutes. While they were not prevented from leaving, participants have said they were encouraged to wait until the breaks between rounds.

Bunn grew emotional while recalling a horrifying scene after the ceremony ended, describing people tripping over others in their haste to leave the searing hot tent, while others lay unconscious outside.




Read more: http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/03/11/arizona.sweat.lodge.trial/index.html

[NBachers]

1. Ray fled the site of the tragedy and abandoned the participants

Instead of staying to help the victims cope with the tragedy, "The day after the deadly sweat lodge gathering, the remaining participants awoke to find a note on the table from a Ray staffer, "saying James was in prayer and meditation."

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/OnCallPlus/arizona-sweat-lodge-survivor-james-arthur-ray-abandoned/story?id=8897573

"Three people were eventually sent home in body bags and more than a dozen were hospitalized"
Ray left the state shortly after the incident

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-5425826-504083.html

[Maru Kitteh]

2. How cruel and horrible and totally avoidable. Woo kills.

[SpiralHawk]

5. That was not woo

No one does eight rounds in the lodge. Four is the traditional number. This guy was an exploitive assclown who had no training in the traditions, and was unfit to lead such a group.

That was arrogant expolitation - in my book it qualifies not as 'woo' but as Republicon Family A-hole Arrogant Values...

[abqmufc]

19. Thank you....

This was a person CAPITALIZING off of culture and traditional ways.

[Zorra]

37. +1

[Desertrose]

8. "woo" doesn't kill- stupidity & greed kill....

I've been following this since the day it happened since it was in my town and I can tell you, this guy was NOT doing anything in a sacred or traditional manner. It was all about greed & control...sounds like a familiar story, doesn't it.

Greed & power & control...never a good combination.

[onager]

13. Woo is based on stupidity and greed

n/t

[Desertrose]

14. Please, define "woo".

[abqmufc]

25. Second that request, you are using a term I don't know. n/t

[onager]

28. Define it? Sure, here you go...

Woo-woo (or just plain woo) refers to ideas considered irrational or based on extremely flimsy evidence or that appeal to mysterious occult forces or powers.

Here's a dictionary definition of woo-woo: adj. concerned with emotions, mysticism, or spiritualism; other than rational or scientific; mysterious; new agey. Also n., a person who has mystical or new age beliefs.

When used by skeptics, woo-woo is a derogatory and dismissive term used to refer to beliefs one considers nonsense or to a person who holds such beliefs...

Much more here:

http://skepdic.com/woowoo.html

[crikkett]

36. W.O.O. - wonder, occluding objectivity

(derisive term for anything magical or mystical, used by skeptics to dismiss things they can't explain)

[SpiralHawk]

27. What BS

This was 'woo' -- whatever the hell that is -- in your mind only. In reality, it was arrogance and marketing and power and control: inarguably hallmarks of Republicon Family Pharisee Values...

Anyone who has ever been around any of our respected traditional elders would confirm the beauty, power, and efficacy of the Purification Lodge. To debase that as something you call 'woo' is about as wrong and twisted as the 370 broken treaties (every last one of them) that the government has racked up in its dealings with Native people.

This Power Tripping Assclown (R) who mimicked the sacred lodge way for money was just employing mainsteam Marketing Strategy to defraud and abuse people.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sudopod]

30. Scientist and all-round godless bastard here.

Just wanted to point out that you're being an asshat. Genocide is never funny. FYI!

[tabasco]

33. Don't you have homework to do?

It's a little late for a middle schooler to be posting here.

[JoeyT]

34. I'd define it as woo as well.

It wasn't a real sweat lodge, wasn't properly set up, the ceremonies were made up as they went along, and the guy had no idea what the hell he was doing.

[msanthrope]

35. Oh, no, it's woo in my mind, too.

I don't care if it's Native people or faux-Native people, it's woo, supersitition, and belief in unsubstantiated myths in my opinion.

I would not confirm the beauty, power and efficacy of your Purification Lodge, any more than I would 'recognize' the Trinity.

Nope. Mainstream and non-mainstream religions alike--it's all the same kool-aid.

[Codeine]

38. +1

There's nothing sacred about the silly animistic mythology of Native Americans, just as the goofy Bronze Age goatherder bullshit that the Europeans supplanted it with was malarkey unworthy of modern consideration. It's all baloney.

[snooper2]

41. killing and taking native peoples and land

is =

Deriding the mystical magical power of a sweat room :rofl:

[Maru Kitteh]

16. Did he get them in the tent with logic and reason?

or woo?

[Desertrose]

18. Probably got them in by

promising to give them something they didn't currently have but hoped for....maybe like Obama suckered so many in with his campaign promises of hope & change etc etc?


Did Obama use woo?

:)

[abqmufc]

20. With MONEY....

No southwestern Tribal lodge is that big...it is no longer sacred at that size. Traditional lodges for Tribes/Pueblos in the Southwest are same sex only. Those are some of the laws given to Tribal citizens by creator.

[Maru Kitteh]

23. He paid people to go in the tent?

[abqmufc]

24. no...

unfortunately those left spiritually void often feel money can buy them happiness. He lured them in with a false belief he could deliver something he could not. He couldn't actually give them what he tried to sell b/c you can't buy comfort in ones spirituality. Nor can you sell it.

Not saying you need to buy into it, but most tend to agree there are a lot of people in the world that think power and money will get your happiness. Also, I hope you'd agree many believe they can buy happiness, love, comfort in oneself, and even spirituality.

For the man facing the charges he was driven by ego (power and money) he lured these people into an unsafe environment b/c a sweat lodge (when run correctly) is sacred, it does have a purpose...otherwise it would have been used for thousands of years. The people followed him into the lodge b/c they had faith in him that he would ensure safety, the same way I assume when I get on a public bus the driver will be safe and ensure my and the passengers safety.

I sense you just want to argue based on your first comment which just dismissed it all as fake and those that follow such ways are idiots. No way to counter ignorance. You have your right to believe what you'd like, but why go out and bash other persons beliefs on the public forum? What is the point?

[Maru Kitteh]

32. If it wakes ONE PERSON up and saves one family a tragedy like this, it is completely worth any

ruffled feathers or bruised feelings.

Logic and reason CAN be applied to the practice of faith and belief. Is your belief asking you to defend a child molester, cut your daughters head off, eschew chemotherapy in favor of reiki and magic crystals, endanger your life in a really hot tent? That is WOO, and will call it out for what it is every time. I have lost 2 friends (one was a niece by marriage) to woo and I don't mean that we don't talk to each other any more - I mean they died. Unnecessarily and in unimaginable pain. WOO KILLS, and it matters.

[abqmufc]

43. Maybe think of a better (non racist term)

I get what you are saying by the term of 'woo'. And there are false prophets at every corner of life.

To me a traditional tribal lifestyle if just that a cultural lifestyle. Someone who is non-tribal and attempts to sell off a cultures' way of life (that they are not part of) is called wrong. Nothing more nothing less. To use terms like 'woo' is just blatant racism. If denies the right of a cultural way of life that has existed for thousands of years and basically writes it off as irrelevant. It may be irrelevant to you...but not to the thousands of citizens to the 563 federally recognized sovereign Tribes within the boundaries of the United States.

I mean why not just call us 'skins or 'reservation n-----'?

[abqmufc]

44. Final thoughts (could not edit existing post)

First, let me back up and apologize. I am truly sorry if you know of anyone who has been injured in a lodge ceremony or any other ceremony. My immediate assumption is these ceremonies were not done in a traditional way (meaning in the way that has been done for thousands of years) nor was the ceremonies run by true spiritual leader of a Tribe. I may be wrong.

Sweat lodges and most ceremonies held in a lodge are simply a purification ceremony. The end result is the same as a sauna found in most hotels, health clubs, etc. The purpose is to sweat out the toxins in your body. That is why one is to drink lots of water for 2 days before a sweat. Also a person should not drink any alcohol before a sweat, nor smoke cigarettes and watch what you eat. This is all to lower the toxins that are recently introduced into your body. Most non-tribal (and tribal citizens too in this day and age) bodies are pretty filled with some nasty toxins. A sweat by nature is designed to pull those toxins out. So in theory one could go into toxic shock in a sweat. And it would be very unwise for someone to enter a lodge if they are medicines for an illness that might pose a reaction when you are sweating out toxins. But it is up to that person to check with their doctor, not trust the man charging admission for a sweat lodge ceremony.

A traditional ceremony is more about reflection on ones life. Usually you have four rounds (I am being very loose in my description b/c each Tribe has different specifics but in this case I hope the generalities work) in a lodge. The first round, each person is welcomed by the person running the lodge and each person says a brief hello (In non tribal lodges this is the point people give 20 minute testimonials about being sober,etc...this is not the purpose of the lodge). The session ends in prayer. Second rounds begins and it is a time to reflect on your past (maybe ask forgiveness for bad things you've done), in this round either tea is drunk (usually with herbs to help with the toxins being sweated out) or a pipe ceremony happens (tobacco, sage, cedar), a prayer is said and the session ends. The third round is focusing on today (sometimes focusing on your spirit animal who helps you in life...a guardian angel if you will), a prayer via song and session ends. The final session is reflection of moving forward (the future), tea and/or pipe, prayer and your done.

The case at hand they did 8 rounds...that right there shows this is not a traditional sweat, it was a money making venture.

To me a sweat is 1/2 hot sauna, 1/2 internal therapy session in its most basic terms.

If anyone is selling different outcomes, then they are wrong and selling false prophecies (what you describe with the racist term Woo). If they are charging admission that is the most basic sign this is not "real" or traditional. If an exchange is done, the person gives the spiritual leader tobacco, sage, or at most some water or firewood (actual things a person needs, but never cash). In all my days I have never met a traditional Indian doctor to ask someone to forgo any medical steps prescribed by a doctor to address an illness (like skipping chemo for crystals and lodges). But I have met a lot of old hippies who are nothing more than capitalists in Birks, most are Anglo-Saxon.

Finally as to the child molester question...of course not. But I also don't label every school teacher as a child molester every though 1% are. I don't call every priest a child molester even though some are. I don't stereotype and I do my best not lump an entire culture nor practice into one generality.

It would be just as if a Tribal citizen said "all white people are stupid." That person would be called out.

[LanternWaste]

42. Probably philosophy and art... so the latter I presume.

Probably philosophy and art... so the latter I presume.

ed:sp

[closeupready]

11. Fail.

nt

[loudsue]

3. 15 people fell and 40 more were injured????

That's 55 people in a damned sweat lodge!!! This guy is a fucking idiot!

I've done sweats for 30 years, and I've been in some pretty hot ones. But a person ALWAYS has the option to get out, and it's up to the leader of the lodge to make it clear that that is the case.

This dude was all ego, and egos do all the wrong things. Those poor participants were being fed a crock of shit.

[Frank Cannon]

4. Just having the option to leave isn't enough.

You will always have the "tough guys" who will push it to dangerous, even fatal, extremes.

What they needed to do, as you pointed out, is have less people involved and MORE people trained in spotting signs of hyperthermia and physically removing and treating those people immediately.

But he didn't do that, because yeah, he is an idiot.

[abqmufc]

26. Also,

when I've done "social" lodges I tend to notice a lot of people don't prepare. They enter a lodge on a Sunday morning, hungover and dehydrated. Not a wise thing to do when you are in a lodge for hours. I do make the assumption that some of these folks did just such a thing. I know the people who go to Sedona for such experiences that are sold at top dollar prices. I was the guy who made their carrot/beet/apple juice when they drove up to Flagstaff in the day and their bartender at night.

Nothing against them but often they are not prepared to experience the southwest. Be it hiking in poor shoes w/o water or enter a lodge hungover and dehydrated.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Desertrose]

9. Nice broad brush there.

[tpsbmam]

10. Wow. This atheist says that's totally fucked up!

I know absolutely WONDERFUL spiritual leaders, many of whom have been pillars of progressive movements. And all of them are more than accepting and welcoming when it comes to their atheist friends & others. I've had some spectacular discussions about religion and spirituality with them but not a one has tried to force his or her views on me. I could list many spiritual leaders who have been at the front of peace, civil rights, environmental, etc movements. I'll stick to one:

So, are you saying that the REV. Martin Luther King was a scam artist?

[naaman fletcher]

15. In certain capacities, yes

If you teach people that there is an old man in the sky, then you are by definition a scam artist.

[Skittles]

40. it's not really scamming if he truly believed in the man in the sky

I say that as an Agnostic

[closeupready]

12. Fail.

nt

[abqmufc]

21. For thousands of years the indigenous culture was just fine...

then came the white man. Before that this land was scared and harmony was held with all things. Yes, conflicts/wars existed amongst Tribal peoples, but nothing to what we since the acts of genocide began by European culture on indigenous peoples. Labeled as heathens, wolves, less than human, expendable, yet you still judge the way of a culture who still survives despite all the acts of termination, assimilation, and genocide thrown at us.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[VermeerLives]

7. This is what happens when you follow a cult (n/t)

[L. Coyote]

17. You can't buy spirituality, but you sure can sell it!

[udbcrzy2]

31. Wonder what the other victims think about not charging him for

their injuries? I also wonder if the sentence will be concurrent or consecutive? I think the guy should serve some time in the slammer and not given probation.

I found the indictment here - 3 counts of manslaughter - felony 2 class
http://www.azcentral.com/ic/pdf/0203rayindictment.pdf


Case search docket here
http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/publicaccess/caselookup.aspx

Arizona Statutes of Manslaughter here
http://www.esia.net/arizona_statutes.htm

[Codeine]

39. They went in willingly.

Stupidity should be painful.