Libyan rebels 'cleansed' from Brega

[Turborama]

Source: Al Jazeera English

Last Modified: March 13 2011 10:36 GMT

Libyan armed forces loyal to Muammar Gaddafi have cleared "armed gangs" from the oil-rich town of Brega in the east, an army source told state television on Sunday.

"Brega has been cleansed of armed gangs," the military source was quoted as saying. The report could not immediately be verified. State television has in the past issued false reports claiming territory.

But the claim comes amid a string of setbacks for the rebels who have lost several cities in the east to pro-Gaddafi forces. Brega's fall into the hands of Gaddafi loyalists would deal a further blow to the opposition's morale and momentum.

Pro-Gaddafi forces have been swiftly advancing on the poorly equipped and loosely organised rebels who had seized much of the eastern parts of the country since the uprising against Gaddafi's decades-long rule began last month.

Read more: http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/03/2011313101739903833.html

---

Old map that now needs updating, it seems....

[Teaser]

1. shit

.

[faz]

2. civil war is ok

Let them sort out their own business.

[Turborama]

3. War crimes are not OK

And after the event is too late: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4768633

[Posteritatis]

4. Behold, a true humanitarian. (nt)

[pinboy3niner]

5. People with that attitude...

...who are so devoid of empathy and compassion for others, often are the ones who scream the loudest for help when they find THEMSELVES in such circumstances. :puke:

[faz]

6. My point is USA has no busisness in interfering with other countries internal power struggle

because that would only make matter worse.

Additionally, that would also get us into another unnecessary war that we can't afford.

[JanDutchy]

7. It is already planned and planted: tweet, tweet

[Turborama]

8. No it isn't. That picture is bullshit. These are more accurate...

[David__77]

9. They're all by the same artist. Can't they all be simulaneously correct?

Just because Gaddafi is murderous and reactionary doesn't mean military intervention is correct. Just because US/NATO have designs on Libya does make Gaddafi heroic.

[sabrina 1]

11. What's sad is that once upon a time, we would have

wanted the U.S. or NATO to go on a humanitarian mission to stop the carnage in Libya. But the world no longer trusts Western powers, especially wrt an oil producing country.

Iraq and Afghanistan destroyed the world's trust in the U.S.

So, no one knows what to do anymore. Who can be trusted to just what is right without some ulterior motive and without turning Libya into Iraq?

Because I know the U.S. would not be helping for altruistic reasons, I agree they should not go there, but what can be done to stop him?

[Alamuti Lotus]

20. you write like predative US/Western intervention is some new concept..

So, no one knows what to do anymore.
As if US/Euro invasion was EVER the only option......

[Turborama]

25. I know what you meant.

Sadly, it seems that there isn't a country in the world now who can step in and stop another ethnic cleansing from unfolding, as we did in Kosovo.


BTW Clinton http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/mar/31/usa.rwanda">ignored what was going on in Rwanda because he wanted to avoid another fiasco like Somalia. Seems like history could be repeating itself after the Iraq and Afghanistan 'fiascos'.

PS Apologies for the delayed response, my cat broke the internet and I've just got it working again. Long story.

[Turborama]

22. I know, that's why I used them.

I assume this was a typo?

"Just because US/NATO have designs on Libya does make Gaddafi heroic."

You seem to forget, or maybe didn't know, that they've "had designs" on Libya for years. Specifically, since 2004 and up until the civil war erupted they were on 'friendly' terms with Gaddafi and numerous foreign oil corporations had already set up shop in there.

As you can see below, BP's pact with Gaddafi in 2007 is just one example of many proving why vulture cartoon and the title that went with it is simplistic conspiracy theory bullshit that only serves to salve people's conscience for allowing Gaddafi to get away with war crimes...

Map of Libya showing oil fields under exploration by BP.
The oil giant struck a $900 million deal with Gaddafi's Libya in 2007.
Illustration/BP.

=snip=

...this article is not about the violence now sweeping the North African country, nor is it about the reign of Gaddafi, rather, it is about those who have helped sustain him. As world leaders and the international press rush to condemn Gaddafi, few mention the support his government has received from Western oil companies since 2004, http://articles.cnn.com/2004-09-17/world/us.libya_1_britain-and-libya-commercial-sanctions-trade-sanctions?_s=PM:WORLD">when the U.S. and the United Kingdom lifted commercial sanctions against Libya. One oil giant that invested heavily in Gaddafi’s Libya was BP (British Petroleum).

In May of 2007, BP signed an agreement with Libya worth $900 million. The deal was signed in Sirt, Libya, by BP’s then chief executive Tony Hayward and the chairman of the National Oil Company of Libya, Shokri Ghanem. The Prime Minister of the United Kingdom at the time, Tony Blair, attended the signing. The official BP web site published a report detailing the agreement, even publishing a special online edition with the unintended prescient title of “Libya Rising.” A jubilant Tony Haywood would utter the following at the signing, words that should haunt BP until the end of time:

“We are delighted to be working with the National Oil Company of Libya to develop their natural resources for domestic and international markets. Our agreement is the start of an enduring, long-term and mutually beneficial partnership with Libya. With its potentially large resources of gas, favourable geographic location and improving investment climate, Libya has an enormous opportunity to be a source of cleaner energy for the world. This is a welcome return to the country for BP after more than 30 years and represents a significant opportunity for both BP and Libya to deliver our long term growth aspirations. It is BP’s single biggest exploration commitment. The agreement reached today is a great success for Libya, the NOC and also for BP.”

=snip=

BP is not the only foreign oil company in Libya; U.S. corporations like http://www.upi.com/Science_News/Resource-Wars/2009/07/17/Exxon-Mobil-achieves-milestone-in-Libya/UPI-60041247858411/">Exxon Mobil, http://www.oxy.com/Our_Businesses/oil_and_gas/Pages/og_mena_libya.aspx">Occidental Petroleum, http://www.conocophillips.com/EN/about/worldwide_ops/country/africa/pages/libya.aspx">Conoco Phillips, http://www.marathon.com/Global_Operations/Exploration_and_Production/Libya/">Marathon Oil, http://www.gulfoilandgas.com/webpro1/MAIN/Mainnews.asp?id=2412">Hess Corp., and Halliburton all run profitable operations there. European nations are also well represented by Eni SpA (Italy: the largest foreign producer), Total S.A. (France: one of the six largest oil companies in the world), OMV AG (Austria), Repsol YPF SA (Spain’s largest oil company), Royal Dutch Shell (Netherlands), Statoil (Netherlands), BG Group (U.K.), Wintershall (Germany). China’s largest oil producer, CNPC, also drill for oil in Libya. Most if not all foreign companies are shutting down their Libyan operations for the moment. The chief executive for Eni said that his company will cut production “because of difficulty loading the tankers to export the oil,” inconvenient difficulties like Gaddafi’s army mowing down the Libyan people with machine gun fire.

Full article with more embedded links: http://art-for-a-change.com/blog/2011/02/libya-bp-lacma.html

[christx30]

19. Yeah it's ok

and when Gadaffi's forces gun down thousands of civilians indiscriminately that's fine too, right? And when he comes out of this as the winner with his power intact, it's just fine by you? Ok.

[happyslug]

24. I hate to point this out, there is NO evidence of any mass killings by anyone in Libya

Now, accusations have been made, and accusations have been made that if the West does NOT intervene Qaddafi will do a blood bath once he takes Eastern Libya but no actual hard evidence of such blood baths.

Now, killings involving Military actions have occurred (Including bombings) but no were near what the US did and is doing in Iraq and Afghanistan (this is do to the nature of the Military in both places, Qaddafi forces are no were as powerful as the US Army, Navy and Air Force). Civilians have lost their lives, but from what I can tell not only by Qaddafi forces, but the opposition i.e. Civilians caught in the cross-fire.

I do not want to sound like someone who is in denial, Qaddafi under the right circumstances could kill off half the population of Libya, but those circumstances do NOT exist and Qaddafi will want to avoid any intervention so Civilian Losses will be minimized more to avoid any intervention then any true effort by Qaddafi to avoid such losses.

My point is I want independent third party verification of such mass killings, not accusations by one side. This can be difficult, but one of the reason the Holocaust was disbelieved till the camps were over ridden by the Russians (And then disbelieved in the West Till the US forces overran camps in the West) was the WWI claim that the Germans were bayoneting Belgium Babies as the German Marched through Belgium in WWI. It was a claim made by the British to justify declaring war on Germany. After the war was found to have no basis in fact, and do to how much it had been believed in WWI when the story of the Death Camps leaked out, people just dismissed such stories as more British Propaganda. Thus propaganda of war crimes that never occurred can lead to dismissal of all war crimes. Thus I want FACTS that support such accusations NOT people repeating what others have said happened or can happened.

[Turborama]

26. What do you think happened to these citizens of Zawiya?

Warning this video report contains graphic imagery, including wounded children: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkaAXDTLhsw">The Battle for Zawiyah

You do sound like someone in denial, actually.

Third parties were not allowed into Zawiya for days until the 'cleansing' had been completed...

http://blogs.channel4.com/world-news-blog/rebel-graves-bulldozed-over-in-zawiyah">Rebel Graves Bulldozed Over In Zawiyah

http://www.channel4.com/news/gaddafis-forces-erase-all-traces-of-rebels-in-zawiyah">Gaddafis Forces Erase All Traces Of Rebels In zawiyah

Here's some footage from when it all started in February of unarmed civilians being slaughtered. Warning, contains graphic imagery: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AN9-55MstMs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAAtfvoneak

BBC: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12518710">Libya doctor: 'Protests spreading amid massacre'

Al Jazeera English: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=385&topic_id=554439">Police Fire Live Rounds At Protesters In Benghazi, Libya (Graphic)

If that's not enough, do some searching on YouTube and you'll see more evidence of civilians being shot at by Gaddafi's mercenaries.

BTW there were reports that bodies were being burnt and disposed of from the beginning of the revolution.

Do you think Gaddafi is ever going to allow a neutral 3rd party to come in and look for the mass graves unhindred?

[happyslug]

28. Lets look at your selection

Here's some footage from when it all started in February of unarmed civilians being slaughtered. Warning, contains graphic imagery: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AN9-55MstMs

The above show a lot of wounded people, but no evidence that they were shot as Civilians i.e. they may have been shot while fighting. Qaddafi has the legal right to defend his forces, if they are attacked. Thus this video proves nothing except that fighting is occurring, and I even acknowledge that (as does Qaddafi).

The rest of the videos all tend to be the same, terrible pictures of people with several wounds BUT nothing showing them having been incurred while NOT fighting.


The last Video, filmed in Benghazi when this revolution started, you hear gunshots, that the narrator say is from the police, but you do not see the actual shooting so it can NOT be tell if the shooting was justified or not.

Police Fire Live Rounds At Protesters In Benghazi, Libya (Graphic)

My point is simple, war is horrific, people get killed in wars. The question is there any evidence that Qaddafi is committing war crimes in the nature of killing unarmed Civilians. None of those Video show that to have occurred.

As I said in my previous thread, war crimes are hard to prove and disprove. The burden is on the person making the claim and so far I have NOT seen evidence showing war crimes. I have heard people claim War Crimes occurred and even CNN had one of its reporter walk over to a dirt spot with tanks tracks on the dirt saying the dead was buried under the ground, but that claim can be made for any piece of dirt, actual bodies is what is needed. Video of actual war crimes (i.e. bombing or shooting of Civilians by someone NOT pictures of the wounded being rushed to a hospital. A War Crime being reported from Bahrain is that the Government is denying people access to the Hospital, that would be a war crime, but we do not even have that claim being made as to Libya.

Civilians and Soldiers get wounded in War, that makes War so terrible, but the accusation is NOT that people are killed or Wounded but the Killing and Wounding is the result of a War Crime. That is the evidence that is needed and none of the Video you site SHOWS such war crimes, just people running around (And that you have such a pack of people together so that they are NOT afraid of being hit by Artillery or being Machine gunned. If they were you dispersed staying no closer then ten feet from another person. An artillery shell has a kill radius of 20 feet, i.e. anyone within 20 feet of the impact will be killed by the shell. Thus by keeping your forces 10 feet or more apart you minimize your losses. The people in your video are to close together. Thus they do NOT fear being hit by Artillery or Machine Guns. They are in a "Safe Area" and you see the wounded being transported through that area to the Hospital.

In fact if the rebels are keeping their forces near the hospital so that the Libyan army is hesitate to drop shells on them, that can be a war crime by the Rebels. If you put your forces in a situation where the other side has to risk hitting protected location (Such as a Hospital) that is a war crime, in this case of the rebels.

Again, no evidence one way or another.

[Turborama]

29. You didn't answer my question. What do you think happened to those citizens of Zawiya?

Did you watch the full 10 minute video? Did you see the wounded children? Did you see the ambulance being fired upon? Did you read the related articles written by Channel 4?

Here's an interview with Alex Crawford, the reporter who recorded what happened in Zawiya (the 10 minute video) before she managed to escape Linya with the footage.

Intro (it says it's no longer available but it is, at the time of posting): http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2011/03/09/ac.kth.new.zawiya.video.cnn?iref=allsearch

(Parts 1 and 2 do seem to http://www.cnn.com/search/?query=zawiya&primaryType=mixed&sortBy=date&intl=false">have been taken down by CNN, for some reason. I'll try and find them on YouTube)

The full transcript is on their site, though: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1103/09/acd.01.html

Excerpt:

Cooper: ... For instance, they repeatedly say they have not fired on unarmed protesters. You personally witnessed them doing just that.

CRAWFORD: They did not just once, but scores of times. I can't even count how many times they did it over the entire period that we were there.

And we were in Zawiyah for -- from Friday midday until Sunday afternoon. And there was continuous, constant, repeated shelling, firing, bombing, attacking of that town. And the military got closer and closer and got -- basically, it's trying to strangle the town.

And the people inside it, they aren't -- to call them a rebel army is just not the case there. There may be rebels in the east, a rebel -- sort of rebel army made up of this -- defections from the Gadhafi army, but in this town, they are 99 percent civilians.

There are a few soldiers who have defected, very, very few, and they have brought with them some weaponry, but they are vastly outnumbered by the civilians in the town. This is a town that is under siege, being constantly attacked, and there is a massacre going on there.

You seem to be prepared to give Gaddafi the benefit of the doubt and believe there's a possibility he just let them live after he battered the city into submission. You even sound like you are taking sides with him when you say that being near a hospital "can be a war crime by the rebels". No, seeking a place of safety is not a "war crime". If they had been using the hospital as a fort and firing at Gaddafi's mercenaries from inside it then what you said might make some sense. However, what you state is like saying http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_Genocide#Genocide">the Tutsis who used churches and schools as sanctuary and were massacred within them committed a "war crime" for being in those locations.

Judging by what http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muammar_Gaddafi#Political_repression">Gaddafi himself has said and done, I'm not prepared to give him any benefit of the doubt on these matters.

Fortunately, nor are the ICC http://www.abc.net.au/rn/breakfast/stories/2011/3154787.htm">which has video evidence (that is one of the reasons they have been able to look at issuing an arrest warrant on him and 15 of his cohorts for "crimes against humanity", and possibly even "war crimes").


Back to your World War 2 analogy. If Hitler had won, do you think the world would have ever seen the "evidence" of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust#Development_and_execution">his genocidal activities? In fact, I think that one of the reasons America has stood so firmly by Israel's side for decades is because of a deep feeling of guilt for giving Hitler the benefit of the doubt for so long and leaving it until it was too late to save those millions of lives that were lost in the Holocaust.

[Turborama]

30. I just found the interview with Alex Crawford on YouTube

Too late to add on edit, but here it is

Part 1 "in this town, they are 99 percent civilians": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BC4e0qbAs2Y

Part 2 "if that isn't a massacre, I really don't know what is": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymCYt-UP6XE

Here's the transcript again: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1103/09/acd.01.html

If/when Gaddafi finally stands trial for crimes against humanity and/or war crines, Alex Crawford will be a key witness.

[sabrina 1]

10. This is so sad.

I hope the decision by the Arab League can help in some way.

If Qadaffi prevails, those people will be slaughtered, tortured and locked up for life if they survive.

It's beginning to remind me of Rwanda :cry:

[quakerboy]

12. I am curious

On the one hand, I don't want to be involved in another war, another country, and to be flat honest, I would suspect the motives of any politician who did.

Oh the other, perhaps it would be appropriate for the UN to set a general imperative, any country in civil war is a no fly zone. That would at least slow down the use of non-proportionate military force in such situations.

[defendandprotect]

13. Gaddafi is destroying his own citizens to stay in power to protect his crimes ...

and the foot dragging by the nations which allegedly represent the heart

of democracy shows us how little they care about democracy!

[joshcryer]

14. Such a change in tune now that people are seeing how bad Gaddafi really is.

[defendandprotect]

15. Just a PS "thank you" for keeping us posted on this --

with so much else going on in Japan and Wisconsin --

and with the loss of Catherina I've been relucant to even look at the revolution

thread!

Imagine that Egypt with 80 million citizens overturned Mubarak and it suffered a loss

of life of something over 200, but I think wounded are usually 4X and 5X that the many

killed.

Then look at Libya with 7 million citizens roughly -- and the huge loss of lives given

the extreme and cruel brutality of Kaddafi!!

There has to be an international message sent here somehow that NO HEAD OF A NATION can

so destroy their people without huge penalities.

Where is that response --

We'd pretty much have to be counting on Italians, French -- and Americans to go fight

against him!! Perhaps one day, we'll see things like that again?

Franco/Spain -- and the Lincoln Brigades --

[Turborama]

27. You're welcome.

I share your frustration. I can't look at Twitter because it's doing my head in.

There's so much going on all at the same time. Bahrain's pro-democracy citizens are getting attacked with US backing now, as well.

Apologies for the delayed response. As I told Sabrina above, my cat broken the internet and I've finally managed to get it fixed after a few days of being offline.

[joshcryer]

16. Every time Gaddafi takes a city he gets more human shields and hostages.

That's why he's doing it. He takes people, hundreds at a time, and holes 'em up somewhere as hostages. That way if the west intervenes with airstrikes we'll kill hundreds of innocent civilians. When the revolutionaries had control over the majority of the cities was the time to strike, now any strikes will result in casualties that are hard to comprehend. It is a lose-lose. Gaddafi continues his onslaught, tens of more thousand die. We attack, tens of more thousands die. It is the worst fucking goddamn thing I can think of.

God I wish the planet had a genuinely peaceful enforcement process that deposed of tyrants quickly and quietly (what the UN was supposed to be, but failed to be).

[inwiththenew]

17. Exactly, we can't win

If we don't intervene we are heartless bastards and if we do and inevitably kill some civilians because he surely is using them as human shields we will be branded imperial war mongers/criminals.

[daleo]

18. I don't know which side is preferred by most Libyans

But I do know that powerful entities in the west have an unhealthy obsession with petroleum, and will do anything to control it's ownership, possession, distribution and associated profits.

[joshcryer]

21. I do know that tyrants are happy to sell that oil, and so would a democracy.

So what's the problem. Oil is going to get sold either way. Unless you believe that the Libyan Revolutionaries don't want to pump their oil.

[daleo]

23. The problem is getting dragged into another war

First the no-fly zone.
Next actively supporting one side in a civil war.
Then western troops and a long occupation.

See Afghanistan and Iraq for variations on this. Viet Nam too, except no-fly zones hadn't been invented yet.

By the way, Bahrain was heating up today. Whose side should we be on and how long should we wait to invade?

[Turborama]

31. The resolution specifies there will be no "foreign occupation force of any form"

Click on the link below to see for yourself in part 4.