Party crashers beat teen to death in Queens after yelling anti-gay slurs.

[NoGOPZone]

Source: New York Daily News

Party crashers yelled anti-gay slurs, then beat and stomped a teen to death at a Queens birthday bash, sources and witnesses said.

Anthony Collao, 18, a recent high school graduate who wanted to help run his family's ice cream business, died Monday at Jamaica Hospital.

It's not clear why Collao was targeted. Friends said he had a girlfriend and was not gay - though the two men who threw the party are openly gay.

Four suspects - Alex Velez, 16, of the Bronx, and Nolis Ogando, Christopher Lozada and Luis Tabales, all 17 and from Queens - were arrested soon after the Saturday incident.





Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2011/03/15/2011-03-15_teen_beaten_to_death.html

[Glimmer of Hope]

1. How horrible. Lock them up and throw away the key.

[Kali]

2. oh god

vicious animals

[driver8]

3. Jesus...

What is going on in this world that makes people act like this?

[rfranklin]

7. This is well known behavior among young men wanting to prove themselves...

because they can't handle their own feelings.

One of the most important lines of work in this area dates back to a 1996 article published in The Journal of Abnormal Psychology. In this empirical paper, researchers Henry Adams, Lester Wright, Jr., and Bethany Lohr from the University of Georgia report evidence that homophobic young males may secretly have gay urges.

In this study, 64 self-reported straight males with a mean age of 20.3 years were divided into two groups (“non-homophobic men” and “homophobic men”) on the basis of their scores on a questionnaire measure of aversion to gay males. Here, homophobia was operationally defined as the degree of “dread” experienced when placed in close quarters with a homosexual—basically, how comfortable or uncomfortable the person was in interacting with gay people. (There is debate in the clinical literature about the semantics of this term, with some scholars introducing other constructs such as “homonegativism” to underscore the more cognitive nature of some people’s antigay stance.)

Each participant then agreed to attach a penile plethysmograph to his, well, “lesser self.” According to the authors, this plethysmograph device is “a mercury-in-rubber circumferential strain gauge used to measure erectile responses to sexual stimuli. When attached, changes in the circumference of the penis cause changes in the electrical resistance of the mercury column.” Previous research with this apparatus (the plethsymograph, not the penis—well, actually both) confirmed that significant changes in circumference occur only during sexual stimulation and sleep.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=single-angry-straight-male

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[reggie the dog]

17. all men do not benefit

as an open minded man who has no problem with gay rights or womens rights what do i stand to gain by being ruled by a bunch of testosterone crazed barbarian men? what would my daughter gain from this? i agree with the rest of your premise, just not that all men benefit because many of us men would shun such benefit and prefer all people to have equal rights.

[yardwork]

25. Agreed. Nobody benefits. Some people might think that they benefit.

It's a little like Tea Partiers thinking that they will benefit if their taxes are cut and all government services are reduced. This may benefit a few individuals - the super-wealthy, perhaps, although even they will be negatively affected by living in a society that is so meager. The vast majority of the Tea Partiers will be impacted in a very negative, immediate way - loss of health care coverage, loss of job-related benefits, loss of health and safety protections.

But they don't see that.

It's the same with the violent homophobia and misogyny. Some men may think that they benefit, but in reality nobody does.

[defendandprotect]

91. It's a powerful movement, however, which could make parents HATE their own kids for centuries!!

Of course it was a violent movement -- "Introducing the Cross with the Sword" --

Blessed be PFLAG -- and that turnaround!!

Our society is having trouble letting go of the concept of male-superiority --

though as we can see from what's happening in the world it is truly

"the bird with one wing" -- !!



:)

[defendandprotect]

72. Agreed -- and we need more men helping to knock out this patriarchal insanity ....

much of this anti-gay and anti-female teaching begins with organized patriarchal religions --

and at the moment all taxpayers are funding the Vatican's "faith-based" organizations --

W came along with that financial blessing just as the RCC most desperately needed the money

to pay for lawsuits owing to their pedophile priests and their sexual abuse of children.


On the other hand, I don't think we can deny that many men are encouraged by these religious

concepts to be brutal with both gays and women -- and to feel within themselves a false sense

of superiority. We certainly have a male-supremacist culture which still encourages this

behavior.





Patriarchy -- and its underpinning =

Organized Patriarchal Religion - and its economic system =

Capitalism =

The Unholy Trinity

[Evolve_Already]

83. Poster below me....

is not understanding the reality of the harm from patriarchy. Most doods don't.

No, not even so called "liberal" doods.

[GillesDeleuze]

37. what strange view of gender and power

and its not terribly helpful

[alcibiades_mystery]

4. Having grown up in Queens, I'll say this...

The kid dying is unusual. But the rest of the story? Bunch of thugs crash a party at an abandoned house in Woodhaven, and some kid catches a beatdown? That was what you'd call standard fare for a Saturday night when I was growing up.

Thoughts with the kid's family and friends. Terribly sad.

[CLANG]

5. Is it just me, or does it seem like there is a lot of homophobia in the latino community?

[Steerpike]

14. now

thats a racist comment...

[reggie the dog]

18. why is that racist?

homophobia exists across pretty much all racial groups but it would be interesting to see a study to see if there are indeed different levels of homophobia due to different manners of socialization across racial groups.

[Hugabear]

62. "homophobia exists across pretty much all racial groups" - so why point out the Latino factor?

You're absolutely right, homophobia exists across ALL racial groups just about. So why is it necessary to bring up the fact that these were Latinos as if that were a determining factor?

[reggie the dog]

67. to find out if certain groups of people are socialized differently

in an effort to learn how to best combat homofobia across cultural lines.

[defendandprotect]

73. They are often "socialized" as Christians/Catholics ... and homophbia is

certainly traceable to the Christian/RCC -- and Biblical teachings --

Until very recently, you could still hear Catholic priests preaching intolerance for

gays and lesbians from their pulpits -- don't know about at this very minute -- but

used to be!!

Don't think the Vatican has changed much in their teachings about homosexuality recently,

but not sure. This Pope has plans to move them to Evangelicalism -- Fundamentalism --

and that certainly is an area where homophoia is taught.

And the Vatican still does not acknowledge the full personhood of females as it acknowledges

the full personhood of males.

[Evolve_Already]

84. You are a rarity on DU.

Taking on the patriarchy will not bode well on this site, or most other sites as a matter of fact.

Only a small handful of brave women bloggers can dissect the harm that patriarchy causes. Thank you.

[reggie the dog]

96. I don't see why, patriarchy is a disservice to women yes

but most of us men don't want such a system. On a personal level such a system is bad for my daughter, my mom, my girlfriend, my sister, my aunts, my grandma. I want liberty and social justice for all and am perfectly able to see the bs idea that men need to be "straight" and virile (berlusconi syndrome)and i know it is just a bunch of bullshit. As a man i am not scared by gay people at all as i try not to assign gender roles and ideas like manliness and womanliness as i am convinced that most if not all gender roles are learned not inherent. Some men are brutes and the world has a lot of responsibility in socializing them but I understand that patriarchy is as bad as oligarchy as it involves a dichotomy in which there are 2 groups, one inferior and the other superior and that such an idea is incompatible with a free open society. I may be rare in that i value freedom to this point but most of my male friends are like this too, but i do have friends that did "girly" things as we were told as kids, i played soccer in the usa (whereas soccer is not for girls in france but i hope my daughter will challenge this machisme)and have male friend who plays the flute, another the violin, a bi friend, another who likes to crossdress now and again, and i guess a couple of "normal" buddies. I have really long hair too, so maybe we are more open minded due to the taunting we received? we are out there though, men who value freedom and justice more than any pre assigned by society gender roles.

[Evolve_Already]

97. Since you are a so-called...

good one, DO something about it! Collaborate with the other "good ones" and rise up. Women can not do it. 90 percent of all violent crimes are done by doods. And please, stop mansplaining to me. I have heard it all before ad nauseum.

[reggie the dog]

98. what do you want me to do?

i stand up for gay rights in the classroom when i teach, i discipline kids when they things like 'stop being such a fag' or 'stop acting like a girl'. what do you want me to do above and beyond that? my whole political world view is about social justice and equality but i dont have much power to change the patriarchial capitalist assholes that run everything.

[SargassoSea]

100. You're just a regular Prince Charming

aren't you Reggie?

I have a question for you: How would you react if your girlfriend decided that she was no longer interested in performing penis-centric "sex" with you? Or suppose she insisted you stop using pornography?

Both of these scenarios are patriarchy-busting in nature but my guess is that you'd be finding a new girlfriend asap instead of doing REAL pro-feminist work.

[One_Life_To_Give]

80. Google Prop H8 demographics

Macho Cultures have at least recently been un-supportive of the so called "Gay Agenda". Particularly with regards to Marriage Equality.
It's not always clear if it's the "Gay" or the perception of "Effeminate" that provokes the response.

[CLANG]

23. This latino doesn't think so...

http://www.puntogaylatino.com/content/quien-es-mas-macho-latino-men-machismo-and-homophobia

[Hugabear]

15. That's a pretty fucked up thing to say

Shame

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[GillesDeleuze]

33. Not really.. cultural attitudes persist

Communities with conservative religious backgrounds are less likely to accept homosexuals, whether:

-white evangelical
-latin catholic
-black baptist

the 'race' only has anything to do with it because it is a cultural construct, which can help define traditions and norms.

i think its fucked up to react as though somebody said something racist when they are trying to understand the milieu in which this violence was born

[CLANG]

38. Thank you.

And I don't think there is a separate race called "Latino". It's more of a cultural, or maybe geographical description. Any of these fools calling me a racist are the worst kind of bigots.

[snooper2]

70. Marketing groups probably have a study somewhere...

[AlbertCat]

44. That's a pretty fucked up thing to say

No it's not.


In more "machismo" communities, there IS more homophobia. Latino and black and very religious communities have been more machismo for a long time (personally, I think it's really just the religion thing, and Latino and black communities often have a more religious influence that goes way back into their histories. You see it in over-religious white communities too). It often goes with the "new bride must be a virgin" meme. It's not a race thing.... it has to do with long held cultural norms. Pointing this out is not racist.


It may not be what YOU think or experience, but alas, fair minded people like you are not always the norm.

[WatsonT]

78. In fact it's been studied

and there is something to the conclusion that there is less tolerance in the latino community: http://hjb.sagepub.com/content/12/4/437.short

[WatsonT]

77. Not really

all cultures are not the same. Not every one has the same views of homosexuals.

[KamaAina]

21. Indeed there is

just like there is in the white community, the African American community, and so on. Your point?

[Zoeisright]

22. [phone]

Perfect answer.

[reggie the dog]

32. point is do some sub cultures

foster homophobia more than others, we do ethnic studies in the usa and it is true that latinos vote on the left more than whites, and blacks vote on the left more than latinos and whites so it is possible that levels of homophobia differ as well.

[CLANG]

40. It wasn't a "point" it was a question. So what's your point?

[WatsonT]

79. Those two groups you mention are race based

whereas latino, while tending towards certain characteristics, is not race based.

There are blond haired blue eyed latinos, and ones that are pure african in origin.

Latino is a culture.

White/black is not.

[BenzoDia]

27. There's homophobia all over the U.S., not just the latino community

The "casual" discrimination is all over the place.

[AlbertCat]

45. There's homophobia all over the U.S., not just the latino community

So.... who said homophobia was JUST in the Latino community?

No one.

The "casual" putting of words in other peoples' mouths is all over the place!

[CLANG]

47. Thanks, AlbertCat

The testiness of this forum sometimes leaves me a bit depressed. It's people like you that help me continue to take this abuse. The trolls must be out in greater numbers with the Wisconsin and Japan things going on.

[AlbertCat]

49. Alas!

The Teabaggers are not the only ones who have trouble discerning what is true from what they want to be true.... forgetting things.... everything!.... is complicated.

As Oscar Wilde said:

"The truth is rarely plain and never simple."

[BenzoDia]

60. You both are way overreacting to this.

You asked a question. I answered it.

Relax a little.

[CLANG]

68. You're probably right - but at least we're having fun doing it!

:toast:

[BenzoDia]

56. 2 points.

1) It's strange to assume that a comment about homophobia among latinos would not raise eyebrows, especially among the type of people who fight for equality.

2) I'm talking about casual discrimination among gays. Reread my post in that context.

[Hugabear]

63. Then why was the Latino community singled out?

Nice backpedaling

[GillesDeleuze]

65. i think because the story is about

latin young men.

[BenzoDia]

69. afaict, there's nothing in the story tying the suspects to the latino community

Outside of their names, what makes this a latino issue?

[GillesDeleuze]

75. its a homophobia issue

what would tie them to the 'community'

[reggie the dog]

99. the simple question that do certain groups socialize their youth

differently. look at the breakdown of the vote to end gay marriage in california by ethinc group and you notice a difference. in order to effectively combat homophobia we need to have different approaches which take into account the ways in which members of different ethnic groups are socialized.

[BenzoDia]

101. I get what you're saying. But what I'm saying is that there's nothing in the article that indicates

the accused are a part of or influenced by the latino community. W/o more information, being latino is not important to the story and should not have been brought up.

Ex. I'm black (partly). I grew up in an army family and spent time in Korea, Europe, and all over the States. Right now, I live in a suburb where most of my neighbors are white. Do my actions reflect anything about the black community? Whenever I do anything, should we also consider how my race played a role in it? Does the black guy down the street and myself necessarily have anything in common besides a black parent?

The answer is no.

[reggie the dog]

102. another thing in common

is that some people may deal with you and the neighbor differently than they would another white person like me when they see that you are black, that is to say that you can get some socialization from others racism.

[defendandprotect]

74. Vatican and Christians began teaching this the minute they hit ground here ....

There was open homosexuality among native peoples here --

with demonizing of the feminine, homosexuality was also demonized --

Introducing the Cross with the Sword -- !!

Illegitimate power changes culture quickly!!

[MadMaddie]

87. There is a lot in the black community too

A lot of it has to do with religion.

[WatsonT]

6. Life

no possibility of parole.

That's the only fair punishment for this.

Anything less is a travesty.

Beating someone to death isn't an accident or a prank that went too far. And at 16/17 they were plenty aware of what they were doing.

Let them out and they will do it again.

[alcibiades_mystery]

11. They'll get 5-15 years for First-degree Manslaughter

Sentencing juveniles to life without parole is stupid anyway, and goes against very refreshing and liberal trends in sentencing guidelines. Currently, New York State has ZERO juveniles serving life without parole sentences, and the practice has been banned in a number of states. As brutal as this crime is, there's no way it will be regarded as a first degree murder, which is the only category that would even allow such a sentence.

[reggie the dog]

20. how is this not murder

they beat him with mallicious intent knowing that their actions could cause death, how is this not murder? and why should a 16 year old or a 17 year old not get life like an 18 year old could for murder. i dont like the idea of letting murderers back on the streets ever but am against the death penalty so i support life in prison.

[alcibiades_mystery]

24. This is not a first-degree murder

I'm not going to waste a lot of time explaining why. Look up the statutes, or have a basic understanding of charging definitions for homicide. It could perhaps be considered second degree, but probably won't be in NYS.

Sentencing juvenile offenders to life without parole is cruel and stupid; there are some 2300 odd juveniles so sentenced in the US, and only 7 thus sentenced in the rest of the world combined, with all of those in Israel. It's a dumb practice, and I'm glad we're moving in the other direction, albeit too slowly.

[reggie the dog]

30. 2nd degree murder is what i was going for

unless they read that the facebook party was hosted by a gay person and went with the INTENT of beating a "fag" to death, then it would be murder 1.

Why is it dumb to sentence a gang member murderer to jail for life if they are 17 when they do the act? murder is a serious crime. i guess i agree in rehabilitative justice for most crimes but to me murder is the exception and they should be punished with no effort to rehabilitate in such a case.

[WatsonT]

76. These guys aren't 8/9 years old

they were perfectly aware of what they were doing.

[alcibiades_mystery]

82. They are juveniles under the law

I agree with the vast world opinion and the trend in states to prohibit life without parole for juveniles.

[WatsonT]

88. Well I disagree

and if let loose they will likely murder again.

[alcibiades_mystery]

89. So you say

I'm not really interested in debating this with you. The US and Israel are the only countries on Earth that sentence juveniles to life without parole. Twelve states have zero juveniles under such a status, including New York State, and several states have moved in line with the rest of the world and outright banned the practice.

So I really don't care what you think. You're just wrong, as far as I'm concerned, and your notion that they will "likely" murder again is just a quaint little intuition you have with little basis in evidence of any kind. Your opinion is of no value.

[WatsonT]

90. How open minded of you

"So I really don't care what you think. You're just wrong" . . . "Your opinion is of no value"

[alcibiades_mystery]

92. I'm well familiar with the way conservative law and order propaganda

has infiltrated liberal discourse, to such an extent that many even on this board think nothing of sending 12 year olds to prison for life without parole. I don't need to review your mental catalog of excuses because yours is the dominant ideology, of which we are all well aware. If it makes me close minded to utterly dismiss endlessly repeated dogma, then I gladly embrace that title. Your opinion is of no value.

[WatsonT]

93. 12 = 17?

Your math teachers must have had a very different philosophy than mine.

"If it makes me close minded to utterly dismiss endlessly repeated dogma, then I gladly embrace that title. "

If? That's kind of the definition of close-minded.

[alcibiades_mystery]

94. Juvenile=Juvenile

Luckily, while your opinion is currently dominant, it's on the decline.

[WatsonT]

95. I see a difference between a 3 year old and a 17 year old one week shy of his 18th birthday

fortunately so does the court.

Anyway your opinion is stupid and I won't listen to it. You're wrong so you should just shut up.

/being closed minded is fun!

[xchrom]

8. sigh. nt

[no_hypocrisy]

9. Gang initiation of MS-13?

[alcibiades_mystery]

12. In Woodhaven?

Extremely unlikely. Wrong place at wrong time. The kid's parents had moved to Long Island. That's NY speak for "They have a successful business."

[yardwork]

26. Could be. There have been some similar cases recently that seem to be gang-related.

[GillesDeleuze]

35. unlikely..

punching and kicking for 13 seconds usually doesn't kill.

[patrice]

13. "God" be with Anthony's family.

;( ;( ;( ;( ;( ;( ;( ;( ;( ;( ;( ;( ;( ;( ;( ;( ;( ;( ;( ;( ;( ;( ;( ;( ;( ;( ;( ;( ;( ;( ;( ;( ;( ;(

[reggie the dog]

16. they murdered him because he had gay friends?

homophobes are going so far as to kill those who are open minded? I guess we are all potential targets unless we join in the gay bashing. I hope they get tried as adults and get life in prison.

[Swampguana]

28. Wow so anti gay supporters will attack those

who are friends with openly gay people? These kinds of people are very scary.

[plumbob]

29. These are not party crashers. These are not kids. These are killers

on a home invasion.

These are killers on a home invasion who killed a random person.

Why in the world they deserve to live, I cannot imagine. What, we'll rehab them as camp counselors?

[reggie the dog]

31. they deserve to live

because there are too many errors when applying the death penalty.

[plumbob]

34. What's too many? What would be the right number, please?

Would you agree that there are also mistakes in sentencing for regular jail time? If so, why sentence anyone to anything if mistakes are a killer? If not, use that same procedure in death cases.

Last question: Would you allow a rabid dog to run loose into your yard with your kids? Remember, no dog chose to get rabies.

[GillesDeleuze]

36. 1 is too many.

[plumbob]

39. That's one answer to one question. Now the rest, please.

If a single error is sufficient to scrap the program, why have laws, police, courts, jails at all? Many more than one error have been made by each of them.

The rabid dog?

It's possible that you simply wish to post opposition without having a discussion. If that's so, would you please indicate so that I can save time and effort on my part? Thank you.

[reggie the dog]

42. 1 error leading to the death of an innocent is too many for 1 simple reason

you cannot free a dead person found to be innocent, you can free an innocent who had been sentenced to life and financially compensate them and pay for psychological treatment for them. Our police, courts, etc all are made up of humans and are open to human error.


The rabid dog, if it is growling at my kids and i have my gun and a clear line of fire i put it down. I also would have my dog put down if it was in constant pain near the end of its life so putting a rabid dog in a cage until rabies kills it is not a good idea in my mind. Now letting a murderer think about how fucked up of an act they committed every day until nature takes them on the other hand....

[plumbob]

48. Thanks for being honest about the dog.

I believe that you will find that many criminals have no real capacity for abstract thought - they are extremely concrete, and that is why they do what they do; they literally cannot wait and reflect. If this were found to be so, by real professionals, in real peer-reviewed studies, could you consider the rabid dog solution for THOSE murderers incapable of reflection?

[reggie the dog]

51. i could indeed but have to decline due to human error and corruption

I have nothing against the principal of executing murderers. I just cannot see how to apply it with certainty of not killing 1 innocent person so I have to say no to capital punishment because juries make mistakes, people lie, and we do not have the power to bring back the dead.

[plumbob]

53. I can live with that. You have a reasoned argument; you have internalized values.

Thank you for stating them clearly.

Please have a good day, and maybe we can both think some sort of positive thoughts to help the Japanese people.

[reggie the dog]

57. sounds good to me

[GillesDeleuze]

46. a single error would not result in the death penalty.

your premises are flawed.

check out agamben's Homo Sacer

[plumbob]

52. The single error WAS the death penalty applied incorrectly.

Seems to me that Agamben's argument that it is difficult to act against the state simply recognizes the defacto position of actual power held by the state, while reducing or eliminating the scope of action possible by individuals. The maximum application of that is the death penalty.

Perhaps you found some formative argument against this happening in Agamben?

[GillesDeleuze]

64. A simple mistake can be appealed in the judicial system

It takes systemic fundamental errors to convict a person, go through the appeals process, and then result in state sanctioned death.

Agamben's argument is more along these lines:
The death penalty creates a crisis in republican-democratic sovereignty by creating a class of people condemned to die. The state does not punish those who kill people in this class. The very administration of death is problematic and antidemocratic.

[reggie the dog]

41. 1 is too many

perhaps one of the kids accused is actually innocent. 1 innocent executed is too many. The difference being that if one is sentenced to life with no parole (i think all murder 1 cases should get that and some murder 2 cases too) you can let the innocent out of jail and give them enough money to retire and seek treatment for their trauma. I would not allow a rabid dog to run by my kids and i am against letting most murderers out of jail. This crime seems to be a hate crime in which they would think killing a "fag" is a good thing but imagine if there were a brawl outside a bar and you punch someone with intent to hurt and they die, you can get murder 2 for that but i think that you would not deserve life for that, going to a party and then harming people due to their perceived seuxal orientation or tolerance of gays, in my mind, adds to the grave nature of the situation and merits life in jail.


sadly as much as i love dogs you have to kill the rabid ones or they spread the disease but dogs are not humans and murderers dont have a transmitalbe disease so we can keep them in a cage until nature takes them.

[plumbob]

55. I'm not completely sure murder isn't contagious. In a case with multiple

actors, I do think that an extreme type of dispersal of responsibility. But that research hasn't been done, either.

It would be so much more productive now to be able to go back 30 years and do the research we really end up needing instead of so many replications of old stuff. At 60, I'm not dead, but I don't have a lot of time for a long linear study, either. Besides, after Reagan knocked out all research based on relationship theory, pickings have been slim.

[reggie the dog]

58. interesting who knocked out the research....

[reggie the dog]

43. this is how i convinced my own father plumbob

it happened that in illinois a dozen death row inmates were let out of jail because northwestern university law school students got the cases re opened and they were found innocent. so i told my dad, a life long death penalty supporter the following and left it simmer:

Imagine that i am convicted of a murder and you know in your heart that i didnt do it but i was framed by the cops (as happened in illinois). i am sentenced to death and am executed 5 years later.

Now imagine i am given life in prison and 7 years later you convince the judges to re open the case when the cop who testified against me is convicted of fabricating evidene. I am found innocent and let out of jail. You hold me in your arms and cry at the courthouse, then take me camping in northern Wisconsin as you had all those times when i was a little boy.


Just think about it please. I respect your desire to get rid of monsters who kill but i appeal to your sense of prudence in relation to judicial error or outright police corruption.

[plumbob]

54. Yes, I read about those Illinois cases. Terrible. We've certainly had

our share in Texas, too.

I do believe we could do it very seldom in a fully justified manner. Probably not right now with all the Tea types shrieking into the wind about spending a dime for anything.

You're obviously a good person, reggie. Thanks for the good thoughts.

[reggie the dog]

59. not just tea party types

lots of people we know are democrat and support the death penalty. death penalty has about 65% support in the usa. I think it is because so many of us imagine that if someone raped and killed our spouse or child we would want to kill them in vengence, myself included of corse in this desire for vengence. i was in college at UIC when the students at Northwestern got those men released from death row and freed from prison. I havent been able to support capital punishment since.

[Hugabear]

66. Your arguments are complete and utter fail

First of all, we're talking about TAKING SOMEONE'S LIFE. STATE-SANCTIONED MURDER. I do not believe the state should be in the business of ending another person's life, especially when there are mistakes made. Your argument seems to be "so what, as long as MOST of them are guilty, it's okay if we kill a few innocent people".

[No Elephants]

50. +1 Excellent distinction: NOT "party crashers." (I oppose death penalty, though.)

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JI7]

71. lock them away for the rest of their lives

i don't care how old they are. they are at an age where they should know this is not right.

[Zorra]

81. Throwing them in a prison pod run by a white supremacist biker gang

for a few years might teach them a little about the evils of hate, prejudice, and bigotry.

[Snoutport]

85. Charged with manslaughter NOT murder???!!!!!!

[BlueIris]

86. Is it 1891? This is so heinous. nt