Some 200,000 in Germany protest nuclear power

[grahamhgreen]

Source: AP

"BERLIN (AP) — Some 200,000 people on Saturday turned out in Germany's largest cities to protest against the use of nuclear power in the wake of Japan's Fukushima reactor disaster, police and organizers said.

In Berlin alone more than 100,000 took to the capital's streets to urge Germany's leaders to immediately abolish nuclear power, police spokesman Jens Berger said.

Organizers said some 210,000 people marched at the "Fukushima Warns: Pull the Plug on all Nuclear Power Plants" rallies in the country's four largest cities.
"We can no longer afford bearing the risk of a nuclear catastrophe," Germany's environmental lobby group BUND said."

Read more: http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gERVTdp3OjRBov_5Gct4pCss1H-g?docId=1d40a09a75344ca8b823c787bf757870

---

Go Germany!

Let's get together as Dems, the party of the future, and ban nukes forever!

Nukes are a dirty and dangerous fuel from a bygone era.

[polichick]

1. Germany is kicking our butts in so many ways - good for them!

[avaistheone1]

2. They are indeed.

[polichick]

3. Check out this German car factory...

http://www.flixxy.com/high-tech-car-factory.htm?nav=ne

[grahamhgreen]

34. OMFG, we really have slipped into the third world

[Lars77]

56. Audi ships their vehicles from the factory Co2-free

http://www.deutschebahn.com/site/bahn/en/group/group__affairs/audi__co2__free__transport__20100812.html

Im a Norwegian living in Germany and i am very surprised and impressed about the environmental awareness of the Germans. When you drive in the countryside about every other home you see has solar cells on the roof. Even warehouses and factories, even the shabby ones you see from the rail lines outside the major cities have solar cells.

And the windmills are everywhere, huge ones. And in the small town i live we recycle paper, metal, plastic and glass (separated into brown, green and clear).

They still drive fast on the autobahn, and they drive a lot. But in general they are very very aware of environmental protection.

And besides, why go on the autobahn with its congestion and expensive gas when you can go on the Inter City Express electric train that does in excess of 200kph cheaper?

[plumbob]

4. I'm with you! We do not need an antique and dangerous technology!

Say good-bye to nukes forever!


Please?

[TheWraith]

5. Right. Much better we should stick with coal, which kills tens of thousands a year.

Wait, what?

[plumbob]

6. Nope, as you know, because you and I have posted back and forth before,

we do not need natural gas or coal or diesel plants, either. All of them filthy antique systems, but with nukes having the added bonus of wastes that last longer than Homo Sapiens has been alive.

Wind and solar. It's happening right in front of our eyes. Five minutes from my house are 60 turbines which provide the power for 44,000 homes, just the size of my hometown of just over 100,000 people.

The one problem with the wind generators has been that they produce so much electricity that the current grid cannot carry it all, so three large new lines are being constructed and will be finished within months, and then 100% of the turbines can be allowed to work, with thousands more in line to be built.

While dozens of other plants were shut down in Texas because cold weather froze the pipes that channel the water to make the steam, those turbines just kept going. At one point, they were providing 25% of all of Texas' power, and this is just the beginning of the industry here in the state.

No fuel, no emissions, reliable, safe, what more do you want? This what a new technology looks like. Of course, people who clean up shit for a living are never in favor of keeping shit from hitting the ground initially. That's understandable from their view, but total nonsense for them to push the rest of us around.

[Confusious]

8. Germany will replace Nuclear with coal

http://www.greenwisebusiness.co.uk/news/carbon-prices-could-rise-on-back-of-german-nuclear-plant-closures-2191.aspx

[plumbob]

10. A media analyst thinks that some of the nuke will go to coal, short term,

and renewables and natural gas as well.

From the OP: "While the German Government has planned to close coal-fired plants over the next five years, it seems that they may be used to make up for the decrease in nuclear power. Additional gas power plants, and maybe some renewable energy could also be part of the solution. While a shift to renewable energy would be preferable, it is not the most likely solution, though, according to Point Carbon."

Point Carbon is the media analyst being quoted. No one from the German government is quoted from this source.


The German government seems to have a different emphasis:

"German Chancellor Angela Merkel said earlier this month that Germany would speed up its move to renewable energy sources, as it evaluated the safety of its nuclear power plants."

http://www.voanews.com/english/news/europe/Thousands-in-Germany-Protest-Nuclear-Power-118705884.html

And that's today's news.

[Confusious]

14. Post #13 nt

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4788173&mesg_id=4788574

[freshwest]

17. Got that right, if it pays 'em, it must be good!

[BrookBrew]

7. All good until the french stop selling them Nuke Generated

base load. The reality persists. Base load is generated by Nuclear or Coal (or some combustion process).

You need base load on cloudy windless days..

[plumbob]

12. Are there days on planet Earth where no wind blows and no sun shines?

Really?

I can damn sure tell you where some nuclear plants that used to work don't anymore, windy, windless, cloudy or sunny.

[grahamhgreen]

37. So, what size nuke disaster would convince you to get off nukes? Loss of a city, country, continent?

[grahamhgreen]

67. Wind is always blowing somewhere, baseload can be fed into the grid from anywhere

it's windy or sunny.

In addition, hydro, wave and tidal are as constant as coal or nuclear,

In fact coal and nuclear are the worst and most expensive options.

Natural gas can also be used until renewables supplant the old system, it is also much cheaper and cleaner than nuclear and coal.

In addition, the price of wind is always free, whereas the price of fossil fuels will always increase.

[Confusious]

9. Germany will replace Nuclear with coal

http://www.greenwisebusiness.co.uk/news/carbon-prices-could-rise-on-back-of-german-nuclear-plant-closures-2191.aspx

[plumbob]

11. A media analyst thinks that some of the nuke will go to coal, short term,

and renewables and natural gas as well.

From the OP: "While the German Government has planned to close coal-fired plants over the next five years, it seems that they may be used to make up for the decrease in nuclear power. Additional gas power plants, and maybe some renewable energy could also be part of the solution. While a shift to renewable energy would be preferable, it is not the most likely solution, though, according to Point Carbon."

Point Carbon is the media analyst being quoted. No one from the German government is quoted from this source.


The German government seems to have a different emphasis:

"German Chancellor Angela Merkel said earlier this month that Germany would speed up its move to renewable energy sources, as it evaluated the safety of its nuclear power plants."

http://www.voanews.com/english/news/europe/Thousands-in...

And that's today's news.

[Confusious]

13. Well they are

They are spending an entire years worth of GDP to get a 10% increase in renewables.

Anyways, I have a hard time understanding why you would disagree with a "green" website that supports renewables that says, unfortunately, they will probably use coal.

Analysts spend their time looking at this stuff, and germany really doesn't have many other options. They have to build the renewables, it doesn't come from the renewable fairy.

Nuclear provide 20% of power in Germany. 10% doesn't cover that, and it ain't going to happen tomorrow. They could get the other 10% from France, but that's Nuclear. Unless it's just a NIMBY thing.

They might even hit the top bracket in electric rates because of this. They're #4 in Europe right now, behind Denmark, Italy and the Netherlands.

[plumbob]

15. I dunno, I've got a funny feeling that Merkel knows more about what

she's thinking than any outside media.

I guess I've got a harder time thinking why you would think a media outlet would know more about what's on the government's mind than the government.

[Confusious]

16. An analyist spends time analyzing

If it's an energy analyst, they analyze energy, it's sources, it's costs, etc.......

Humans aren't so hard to figure out, especially with limited choices. They're not aliens.

Merkel is in a coalition government. She can't act unilaterally. She has even more limited choices.

[plumbob]

19. Most analysts are paid to have a bent.

Heritage Foundation and so on. They analyze, but with a set of assumptions that will affect it.

I still think Merkel has more influence than an analyst.

[Confusious]

21. So this guy gets paid by a "green" foundation

Wouldn't he have more of a "green" bent, given your logic?

The fact remains, renewables don't become conjured up out of thin air. They have to be built. If they shut down the nuclear plants in Germany, they have to get power from somewhere. That means more coal in Germany or more nuclear from France.

Either way, it means higher electric prices on top of 30 cents a kilowatt hour. By comparison, the United States pays 9 cents a kilowatt hour.

While that might not sound like much, but on a $50 bill, that goes up to $150. Not good news for people squeezing by.

[wordpix]

28. where are these 30 cent/kwh numbers coming from?

[Confusious]

38. post downthread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4788173&mesg_id=4788719

[plumbob]

31. Who pays 9 cents? I pay 6.3 for my windpower here.

I have no knowledge of who this guy writes for. Advertising as green doesn't mean much when you take into account that all the nuclear people claim to be green when what they are is poison that lasts beyond the lifetime of civilization so far.

And building wind farms takes months, not years. 2800 MW were installed in the first quarter of 2009, for instance.
http://www.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20090428006315&newsLang=en

And a German company has just built the world's largest wind farm just up the road from my house.

"Completing the world's biggest wind farm took more than a $1 billion investment, coordination with more than 300 landowners and management of more than 500 workers," Steve Trenholm, chief executive of German-based E.ON AG's (EONGn.DE) renewable unit in North America, said in a release.

and


Elsewhere, the company recently began construction on Britain's big London Array offshore wind project, which will become the largest offshore wind farm in the world when finished.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2009/10/01/wind-texas-idUSN3023624320091001


So the Germans have a going concern in wind, and Britain will soon have the largest array in the world.


The clock is ticking on everything else. This simply works too well - there are peak times when electricity is so abundant from wind that the price falls below zero. Can't do that with anything but solar and wind.

[Confusious]

39. Thats all fine a dandy if you're building outside a small town

The US has ~960 GW of installed power in coal and nuclear. Getting there in 5MW pops is going to take time.

And your post confirmed, you think it'll pop out of thin air.

I was comparing Germany average to American Average. I guess I have to spell everything out.

[plumbob]

48. Where do you live? I live in a town of 100,000+ with another the same size

20 miles away, and another 100,000 in the counties of 20 miles away or less. That's 300,000 in this metro area; I don't really consider that small, do you? The wind farm at Notrees was built in 6 months and can provide power for 44,000 homes or one of these 100,000 towns.

My point on price is that wind brings price down, not up. You say Americans pay 9 on average. I pay 6.3, because my provider is mostly wind. Your argument was that renewables would cost more. Not possible - no fuel, short construction time, great output unaffected by weather.

The wind farms of Japan went through exactly what the nuclear plants did, and they never stopped producing. Still are producing.


The trend is already wind:
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/maps_data/pdfs/eere_databook.pdf

Worldwide, wind energy is the fastest growing renewable energy technology—between
2000 and 2009, wind energy generation worldwide increased by a factor of
almost 9.

The United States experienced even more dramatic growth, as installed wind energy capacity increased by a factor of 14 between 2000 and 2009.

• In the United States, renewable energy has been capturing a growing percent of new
capacity additions during the past few years. In 2009, renewable energy accounted
for more than 55% of all new electrical capacity installations in the United
States—a large contrast from 2004 when all renewable energy captured only 2% of
new capacity additions.



Let's face it - anything that uses fuel is a dead-end and a filthy antique technology. Most new installations are wind already, and that will only pick up. 1400% growth in just 9 years was just getting up to speed. The manufacturing plants are here now; the work force is being educated in local junior colleges now. It is happening and right now.

[Confusious]

58. I live in a city of 1 million +

No wind on a regular basis all year. A light breeze, 1-2 miles an hour pretty much all year, but that's not going to generate power.

Plenty of sun, the state will even subsidize the cost of solar. you pay 4,500 for a 13,500 3k system. Going around town, I have not seen one house with panels on the roof, and only know of one business getting power from solar.

[plumbob]

61. You don't need wind at your location any more than you need a nuclear plant

next door. Electricity is fungible entirely.

For instance, it's not well known that Florida Power and Light built the first Texas wind farm at McCamey for the benefit of their Florida customers. It's worked out well:

http://www.bizjournals.com/tampabay/stories/2006/08/14/daily35.html

FPL now world's largest wind power operator

With the addition of more than 445 megawatts of new wind capacity since January, FPL Group, the parent company of Florida Power & Light Co., has become the largest owner and operator of wind power in the world.
Florida Power & Light provides electricity for Manatee and Sarasota counties, as well as other areas in South and East Florida.
FPL (NYSE: FPL) currently operates 47 wind farms throughout the United States with a gross capacity of 3,912 megawatts, according to company officials.

That's enough to power nearly 1 million homes of average size.


And this was six years ago. Wind has to blow 6 mph to move the new turbines, and the tips of the blades move at 2 mph.

Thanks for answering!

[plumbob]

33. Actually, now that I've had some time to research this, the analyst

being quoted does not work for a "green" company. He works for Point Carbon, a business which provides information and trends in carbon trading.

http://www.pointcarbon.com/aboutus/productsandprices/research/

He (or she) is being quoted on a SITE called greenwise, which actually is interested in promoting green projects. They recently were horrified by the British government's decision to stunt green energy there:


http://www.greenwisebusiness.co.uk/news/feedin-tariff-why-the-government-is-killing-off-green-growth-2222.aspx

So the Point Carbon source you're quoting secondhand is not a green source and does not pretend to be. They analyze the carbon credit market, which will cease to exist when we're all on renewables, so little doubt as to why they would spread skepticism about them.

[Confusious]

40. Well, he's probably got a job for 40 years, at least.

Did you think that maybe they went to him because they trusted his judgement on these things?

It also goes to show, if you have any doubts about the renewable revolution, and voice those opinions, it's time to get under the bus.

[reorg]

44. here is the Point Carbon press release

What they actually predict:

“If these 8 (nukes) were to remain closed after the three month period, the original phase out law were restored for the remaining German nuclear plants and fossil fuels, namely coal and gas-fired generation, were used to fill this generation gap, we estimate that emissions would increase by 64 Mt in the remainder of phase 2, and by 435 Mt between now and 2020”

... in the longer-term, the impact of nuclear closures on German emissions will depend on the energy mix that Germany opts for. According to Sebastian Mankowski, a carbon analyst at Thomson Reuters Point Carbon and a former energy trader, “As far as impact on the energy mix, it is not clear what would fill the energy generation gap in the longer term. What is most likely is that the planned closure of coal-fired generation capacity by several German utility companies over the next 5 years will be altered to accommodate the reductions from the nuclear sector. It is because of this alteration to coal-fired generation that we foresee higher than expected emissions”. He added, however, that “In a situation with less nuclear capacity, we might see more new build of gas power plants than we currently assume, which would counteract a part of the increase in emissions. Or, indeed, there might be some increase in renewable energy but it is not clear which particular renewable energy source might benefit over another from a reduction in nuclear generation. In addition, extra renewable generation could only be mobilized over a longer period; it cannot be brought on line immediately”.

http://www.pointcarbon.com/aboutus/pressroom/pressreleases/1.1518537

[Confusious]

46. Yes and they'll probably keep one coal plant in particular going

actually two. Two out of the five worst coal plants in Europe going for another 10 years or more.

"extra renewable generation could only be mobilized over a longer period; it cannot be brought on line immediately”."

Didn't you say it would be immediately? Nope, sorry, someone else.

Gas plants still emit carbon.

[wordpix]

29. why are you so determined we know this? Obviously, Germany has a commitment to solar

[Confusious]

41. Sorry I thought enlightenment was good

I guess I was wrong. I broke the "voice no doubts about renewables" rule.

Sorry, won't happen again.

Renewables will save us! Renewables will save us! Renewables will save us! Renewables will save us! Renewables will save us! Renewables will save us! Renewables will save us! Renewables will save us! Renewables will save us! Renewables will save us! Renewables will save us! Renewables will save us! Renewables will save us! Renewables will save us! Renewables will save us! Renewables will save us! Renewables will save us! Renewables will save us! Renewables will save us! Renewables will save us! Renewables will save us! Renewables will save us! Renewables will save us! Renewables will save us! Renewables will save us! Renewables will save us! Renewables will save us! Renewables will save us! Renewables will save us!

[grahamhgreen]

36. So, what size nuke disaster would convince you to get off nukes? Loss of a city, country, continent?

[octothorpe]

18. Is it even possible to immediately abolish nuclear power?

I'd think it would take awhile to just bring the things offline, and not to mention bring other sources of energy online.

[Confusious]

22. yea

If you'd like your $50 dollar electric bill to be $300.

It's always possible. The problem is the number of bricks you can pass.

[midnight]

20. K&R Let's move forward with alternative energy....

[Snoutport]

23. we should be outside with a sign

when does America send 200,000 out into the streets?

[InvisibleTouch]

24. Good! We need to do the same. n/t

[wordpix]

25. "gloomy skied" Germany believed to be #1 in solar panel use

What country uses the most solar panels?

Gloomy-skied Germany seems to hold the record at the time this article was written. Cloudier by far than many other countries, Germany has nevertheless become the global leader in electricity generated through solar panels. It produces about half of the world’s total solar electricity.

Germany adopted a law in 2000 that requires the country’s immense power companies to subsidize new solar companies by buying electricity from them at marked-up rates. In 2002, Germans installed more than 10,000 solar panel systems. In 2003, they installed some 20,000 solar panel systems, almost twice the number installed the previous year. This growth continued in 2004. In 2005, Germany was the fastest growing major solar panel market in the world.

As of May 2007, 15 of the 20 biggest solar panel plants in the world are in Germany, even though Germany has only half as many sunny days as countries such as Portugal. The German government decided to phase out all of its nuclear power plants by 2020.

http://www.solar-energy-connection.com/solar-panels/solar-panels-what-country-uses-the-most-29/

[Confusious]

26. Yes and they pay 30 cents a kilowatt hour

9 cents in America.

[wordpix]

27. link please

[Confusious]

30. link

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_pricing

[reorg]

32. funny, if you follow the link

cited as reference at Wikipedia, it says:

Germany € 0.2282

http://www.energy.eu/#domestic

This is the current price for private households with standard consumption, businesses pay much less, some 15 cents per kW/h.

[Confusious]

35. I cited you residental

I can't see the point you're trying to make, if there is one.

That would be in Euro's also, which if converted into the dollar, would be ~30 cents.

I don't know if you also noticed that germany has one of the highest electricity rates on that list.

[reorg]

42. sure

the US equivalent depends on the foreign exchange rate which currently favors the Euro.

Yes, I noticed that only in Denmark, the Netherlands, Italy prices are higher whereas in the UK and France as well as the low income countries prices are lower, in the UK and France only half of that in Germany. If you look at the industrial rates, though, prices don't differ all that much. I think taxes may be the main reason for high electricity prices, as indicated in this chart:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strompreis#Steuern.2C_Abgaben_und_Umlagen

They have risen from 24,7% in 1998 to 45,6% in 2011, without taxes the cost for electricity is 0,1357 Euro per kWh in Germany (for average households using 3,500 kWh per year).

[Confusious]

45. You can convert it to euros or pesos

30 cents vs 9 cents. It's not going to get better.

.22 euro cents vs .066 euro cents.

The prices for industrial are if you buy in the MW hours. Don't think people are going to be able to afford that.

[reorg]

51. as I said

the price is also lower for (small) businesses, around 15 cents (Euro), which is currently worth about 21 cents in the US.

The price difference to the US sounds perhaps dramatic at the current exchange rate, but the Euro can always drop down to parity with the Dollar, the Euro was only worth 80 US cents a few years ago.

One factor in the recent price hike was the EEG, the subsidy for renewables which consumers have to pay. It has risen to 3.5 cents per kWh this year from 2 cents last year, and 1.3 cents the year before. Another factor is that major electricity suppliers have raised the price significantly (RWE, 7 percent) using the EEG as pretense. You also see this often with gas price hikes: when the ecotax kicked in, the suppliers just added a few more cents to the price, thinking the blame would go to the state. Cheap tactics, but it mostly works.

[Confusious]

54. The exchange rate has nothing to do with the price

I'm not comparing euros to dollars. It's cents to cents. Euros to Euros.

"One factor in the recent price hike was the EEG, the subsidy for renewables which consumers have to pay. It has risen to 3.5 cents per kWh this year from 2 cents last year, and 1.3 cents the year before"

Proves my point.

[reorg]

55. no it doesn't

therefore it is misleading if you quote the Euro price in Dollars, duh.

The EEG was introduced to promote renewables and seems to work perfectly well, much better than expected even. People are ready and willing to pay for this, and able to do so. OTOH, you can profit from the subsidies, see the poster downthread who has solar panels on his roof. These subsidies only go to small projects and help decentralize power generation. The Greens whose environment minister introduced the measure just won big in two state elections, and the always nuke-happy FDP losers have contritely promised tonight that they are committed to scaling up renewable energies in Germany.

[Confusious]

57. therefore it is misleading if you quote the Euro price in Dollars

Not if you have any sense. Most people know that if I quote 30 vs 9 cents, I'm converting from euros to dollars to compare. Converting isn't that hard, it doesn't even take algebra. I guess the US educational system has gone downhill if you don't know or understand that.

Current exchange rate = 1.4 euro to 1 dollar
current residential electric rate in Germany = .22 euro cents

1.4 * .22 = .308 US cents.

Average electric rate in the US = 9 cents US.

30.8 cents US vs 9 cents US.

Whoof that was tough.

I guess if you were dishonest, you could compare euros to dollars.

As for the EEG subsidy, that's the entire point. It costs more for renewables. Not only are they paying for the power, the government is subsidizes them. Doing that in America would stretch already tight budgets. If you haven't noticed, a lot of people are having a hard time these days. If you can't see that, I can't help you. Not that I think you really want to see.

[reorg]

60. okay, last post

Explain what you don't like about the EEG if you want. It doesn't cost more for renewables, it helps subsidize them. Yes, renewables are still costly as long as the parts are not mass-produced and if you have to invest. The consumers make up for that with some 10 percent price increase. With great success, since we have come from low single digit percentages to 17% renewables within less than 10 years.

The comparison of 9 US cents for one kWh to 22 Euro cents kWh changes quickly within months since, as it happens, current exchange rates change. A colleague of mine regularly published a study on fuel prices all over the world. In order to make the real value of these prices transparent, he also included for each country the price for a simple meal in a restaurant, a chicken egg and so forth. Just stating prices at a random point in time in another currency doesn't really help. Right now, the price for one kWh in Germany is 30 US cents for private consumers, 21 US cents for small businesses. Should the exchange rate drop to an extent as some experts expected last December, the price will quickly drop to 22 US cents for private consumers and 15 US cents for small businesses. Got it?

[Confusious]

62. a subsidy is a cost.

It means we pay more in taxes. Renewables are mass produced. Try a little more then 10%. In arizona, a 3k solar system will cost you 4,500. list price? 13,500. State subsidies the rest. So you pay it in use, you pay it in taxes. 17% renewables based on what? They don't provide 17% of the United States electricity. They do provide 18% of the world, but then, what are you including? Hydropower? That's been there. so the growth is less then you make it out to be.

As for the price, it's still more then what we pay here, still the highest in Europe, no matter how you cut it, or try to pass it off to exchange rates.

[reorg]

63. I'm in Gemany

Renewables for electricity generation in Germany in billion kWh:
wind 36.5
biomass 33.5
water 19.7
photovoltaics 12
http://www.erneuerbare-energien.de/files/bilder/allgemein/application/pdf/ee_in_zahlen_2010_bf.pdf (in German, p4)

Share of renewables for electricity in 2009: 16.1%
http://www.erneuerbare-energien.de/inhalt/45805/5466/

In 1998 the share was less than 5%.

Solar systems are getting cheaper and critics say the subsidies should be lowered. I read that the Chinese are investing huge amounts and even get additional support from Germany, to produce even cheaper solar systems. Good for the consumers (and less EEG subsidies to be payed by electricity consumers), but perhaps not so good for Germany's industrial base. Cheaper may not always be better.

[Confusious]

64. Solar systems are getting cheaper and critics say the subsidies should be lowered.

They probably will be. Most countries can't afford the "generous subsidies" they get these days.

[coyote]

47. I live in Germany and have solar.

It's immensely successful because of the tax break you get on this program. For example, a 15,000€ (+ 3000€ VAT) system would actually cost 9000€ (40% off) plus you get VAT back. So my 18000€ system costs 9000€. The power is fed directly back on to the grid. I buy my energy from EON for 22 cents / kw. However. EON buys my solar energy for 41 cents/ kw. The energy company actually pays me every month for estimated energy I will produce.

That's jut a rough idea how it works.

[plumbob]

49. Thank you! We need input from people who are actually there and part

of this.

What's not to like?

[plumbob]

50. Self delete. The dreaded double post...

[Confusious]

59. Jesus

How do they stay in business doing that?

[grahamhgreen]

66. Because that is the cost of the mortgage and insurance that they would otherwise be paying for

building a nuclear plant, I believe.

[grahamhgreen]

65. This is the critical point in this thread, IMHO. The provider (the person who put the panels

on his roof) is the one getting paid, not the power company.

[DeSwiss]

43. K&R n/t

[hayu_lol]

52. Like many European countries...

Germany buys much of it's needed power from Russia--the largest net exporter of energy in that region. The balance that they will need will come from next door neighbor, France. Russian and French power is nuke.

[reorg]

53. are you sure?

I am a little skeptical, so I looked it up in Wikipedia:

January through November 2009 (in million kWh)
Country Import Export Saldo
Denmark 5,728 3,113 2,615
France 9,809 1,283 8,526
Luxemburg 636 4,597 -3,961
Netherlands 3,214 8,264 -5,050
Austria 6,712 13,192 -6,480
Poland 130 4,958 -4,828
Sweden 950 964 -14
Switzerland 2,549 11,302 -8,753
Czechia 7,984 868 7,116
Total 37,712 48,541 -10,829

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energiemarkt

Germany is a net exporter of electricity, the gas imports from Russia are for heating and for gasfired power plants, I suppose, no nuke power imports from there.

Experts have frequently pointed out that Germany doesn't need any electricity imports.