URGENT: Plutonium detected in soil at Fukushima nuke plant: TEPCO

[IScreamSundays]

Source: KYODON

URGENT: Plutonium detected in soil at Fukushima nuke plant: TEPCO
TOKYO, March 28, Kyodo

Plutonium has been detected in soil at five locations at the crippled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant, Tokyo Electric Power Co. said Monday.

The operator of the nuclear complex said that the plutonium is believed to have been discharged from nuclear fuel at the plant, which was damaged by the March 11 earthquake and tsunami.

==Kyodo

Read more: http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/2011/03/81589.html

[buddysmellgood]

1. Now THAT is a problem.

[leveymg]

80. Here's the really bad news. If plutonium rods have melted, they're at 3000 degrees.

Here's something I wrote Saturday before last, but withdrew after I learned that the material in MOX rods is plutonium oxide and uranium oxide, which have a significantly higher melting and vaporization point than pure Pu and Ur. Now that we've learned that traces of plutonium particles have been detected at a distance from the containment sites, we have to conclude two things:

1) One or more MOX rods have melted or vaporized;

2) Those rods were at least 3000 degrees, hot enough to melt through the containment structure.

With that in mind, here's what I posted. The rest of it is accurate:

leveymg (1000+ posts)
Sat Mar-19-11 08:49 AM
Original message
Plutonium Rods Melting In #3 - Some Bad News, Some Good News, and Some Really Bad News.
For a while, a lot of us have been asking -- and the authorities aren't really telling -- one thing: are the plutonium fuel rods in the #3 reactor melting down? The answer, I'm afraid, is right before us: if the rods have gotten hot enough to melt their cladding, liberating hydrogen, the nuclear material IS hot enough to melt.

The reason numbers 2,3, and 4 containment buildings have blown out is because of a buildup of hydrogen gas. The fuel rods are wrapped in an alloy (zirconium) that when it burns (1200 degrees C, 2200 F) pulls oxygen out of water, releasing explosive hydrogen and steam. The hydrogen gas has exploded, bursting the containment structures. Because the explosion wasn't contained, the plume escaped into the atmosphere.

The fumes and smoke are radioactive steam and burning materials from inside the reactor containments and the melted cladding. Here's the good news: that plume is not as radioactive as Chernobyl because the radioactive fuel is not burning as intensely as it did inside the Russian graphite reactor. The real danger in any nuclear event is melting and vaporization of the rods themselves. For a while, I was not sure how close we were to that point of melting at Fukuyama. They aren't telling us. As I said, the plutonium rods in #3 melt at a lower temp than the others. But, a bit of checking reveals a startling and disturbing fact:

Plutonium melts at a much lower temperature (1200 degrees F) than the cladding material, and the melting point of uranium is just about the same as zirconium insulation, about 2200 degrees F. So, if there has been a hydrogen explosion, that means the rods have heated to a temperature sufficient to melt them. This is particularly true with the MOX rods in #3, which as we can plainly see from photos, is far more melted from extreme heat than the other structures.

But, here's the really bad part - vaporized plutonium is even more dangerous as a dirty bomb than as a fission bomb. The stuff is a high alpha particle emitter - only a few tiny particles, if you breath or ingest it, will cook your tissues and eventually kill you. Not quickly like a bomb blast, but relatively slowly as a Cancer.

First, a bit of technical background: (NOTE: 3/28/10 - The information below applies to pure plutonium and uranium. MOX rods are plutonium and uranium oxides, which have a melting point of about 3000F and 4000F, respectively. Now that they appear to have started to melt down, this is even worse news, as they are that much hotter than when they burned off their cladding.)

Chemical Elements.com - Plutonium (Pu)
Name: Plutonium Symbol: Pu Atomic Number: 94. Atomic Mass: (244.0) amu. Melting Point: 639.5 °C (912.65 K, 1183.1 °F) Boiling Point: 3235.0 °C - http://www.chemicalelements.com/elements/pu.html

It is possible that some of the plutonium in the uncooled MOX rods contained in Reactor building #3 have started to melt.

However, the vaporization (boiling) point - 3235 degrees C is still so high that it's unlikely that we'll see massive airborne release unless criticality is reached. That's the good news.

By comparison, the melting point of Uranium is considerably higher than Plutonium and about the same as the insulation it is clad by:
Chemical Elements.com - Uranium (U)
Name: Uranium Symbol: U Atomic Number: 92. Atomic Mass: 238.0289 amu. Melting Point: 1132.0 °C (1405.15 K, 2069.6 °F) Boiling Point: 3818.0 °C (4091.15 K, ...
www.chemicalelements.com/elements/u.html - Cached - Similar

Now, for More Bad News

Maybe, here's the really bad news about Reactor 3. The critical mass of pure plutonium (at which it will support a chain reaction is only 4.4 kilograms - about as much pure plutonium as is contained in two MOX rods. Each MOX rod contains about ten percent Pu mixed with reactor grade uranium and other radioactive isotopes, which raises the critical mass substantially. Nonetheless, any two MOX fuel rods (each weighs about 60 pounds) contains a sufficient mass of plutonium to achieve criticality, a "chain reaction", if the uranium and other elements were removed. Of course, MOX fuel rods do not explode for two reasons: they aren't normally mixed together, and because they contain blended nuclear materials of various types that do not have a sufficient purity of any type or combination of types to cause a run-away nuclear reaction.

Theoretically, if one were to take many MOX rods and mix them together in a molten mass, it would not explode like an atomic bomb. Nonetheless, these materials, left uncooled and uncontained, in sufficient quantities long enough, would be so hot and radioactive as to burn through and radiate practically any material, including steel, concrete, stone, and dirt. Once they had burned through the floor of a containment structure, they would continue to "melt down." It is unclear as to how far below ground this glowing molten mass would descend, but in its present location, it would reach the water table within a few meters, sending up a large plume of radioactive steam and particles of molten sand, radioactive silicate.

The situation is really bad. We are at rod melting, next comes melt-down and a pooling of large masses of melted plutonium and enriched uranium if they are unable to flood the rods in a few days or weeks.

_____________________________________

BACKGROUND: What is MOX?

"Mixed oxide, or MOX fuel, is a blend of uranium and plutonium which behaves similarly to the enriched fresh uranium fuel. The plutonium in MOX fuel can be derived from either spent fuel discharged from reactors or nuclear weapons material. Reactor grade MOX, derived from commercial reactor spent fuel, contains quantities of fissile (U-235, Pu-239, and Pu-241) and fertile (U-238) material. Uranium and recovered plutonium constitute the basis for reactor grade MOX fuel. Weapons grade MOX is derived from surplus nuclear weapons. The main difference between weapons grade plutonium and reactor grade plutonium is the percentage of the plutonium isotopes present in each fuel type. . . reactor grade MOX has higher concentrations of Pu-238, Pu240, Pu-241, and Pu-242. In addition, Pu-241 decays to Am-241. The concentrations of these radioactive isotopes necessitate additional shielding measures for reactor grade MOX fuel. . . typical reactor grade PWR MOX fuel assembly contains approximately 10% of plutonium per weight of heavy metal," - http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:ug ...

#
An estimate of the MOX fuel assembly weight was derived from the weight of a ... Weight of control rod assemblies for the MOX core design is given as 60 Ibs ...
http://www.osti.gov/bridge/servlets/purl/889278-GsWJAs /
#

- Mark


http://www.ornl.gov/~webworks/cpr/v823/rpt/109264.pdf

[buddysmellgood]

90. It sounds like we could well be headed for that.

[AtheistCrusader]

99. No, we do not have to conclude one of those two things.

There are additional possibilities, not even including the MOX fuel from Reactor 3.

Reactor 2 is likely in containment breach, as the suppression pool was damaged in the explosion. Pu is present in NORMAL uranium fuel rods. It is a byproduct of the fission chain that powers these reactors. That is why these reactors are integral to a nuclear weapons program: Pu is *produced*. People who make bombs want it.

ALL fuel rods in ALL of these reactors contain some level of plutonium, more over time as they are used. That means the source could be any of three reactor cores, OR any of 4 storage pools.


Neither 3000 degrees, nor reactor 3 is required, in any way, for these test results to occur.

[leveymg]

117. No. Pu outside containment means the rods have melted or vaporized.

If Pu is present anywhere other than inside a rod -- whether it is from the melting of a 90/10 MOX-Uranium/Plutonium rod or (worse) of a uranium rod that has Pu traces from fission (an enriched Uranium rod melts at a higher temperature) -- that indicates a melt-down of one or more rods. The melting point of MOX is 3000 degrees or higher, which will melt through the containment vessel at some point. That point appears to have been reached.

There is, sadly, no other physical explanation for locating particles of Plutonium outside the containment. Sorry. I don't want to have to say this. There has been a breach of the core or container and melting or vaporization of a fuel rod. Whether in #2, #3, or a storage pool, plutonium is melting at more than 3000 degrees F. Makes little difference where. There is a melt-down.

[AtheistCrusader]

119. Said that way is more reasonable.

However, still possibilities exist beyond melt-down of the rods in the storage pools. For instance, they were exposed to atmosphere and subjected to a hydrogen explosion (from the boiling off of the zircalloy cladding). Pieces of rods in the (empty of water) pools may have been blown apart and scattered.

This of course, is not a good thing, it's very VERY bad. But it's bad in a different way.

Incidentally, the MOX rods and the regular rods will achieve the same ratio of Pu/Uranium over time. Just takes fresh fuel longer to reach equillibrium.

[liberation]

121. Do they also use Zirconium for the Pu rods?

Zircalloy is explosive at those temperatures, so if some rods have exploded the area of dispersion for the dust could be significant.

[CoffeeCat]

141. I'm not a scientist, so bear with me...

...while I throw out some questions.

This sounds like a worst-case scenario situation. If a complete meltdown into the Earth happens, which
results in an out-of-control plume of radioactive steam (that contains heavy metals), this sounds just
horrendous--not for Japan but for other nations as well. Is that accurate?

And you suspect that this is what will happen?

Are there other reasons that the Plutonium could be in the soil?

[leveymg]

146. Again, if particles of Pu are outside containment, the only physically possible explanation

is melting or vaporization of the rods. Burning off of the zirconium cladding alone would not account for that, as that occurs at a far lower temperature, and contact with water would not cause plutonium particles to "wash off" the rods. The water would become radioactive, but would not have plutonium particles mixed in with it. Similarly, the fumes from burning materials such as other metals or concrete would become radioactive by contact or close proximity, but would not actually contain plutonium.

Only the rods contain plutonium, which are strong alpha particle emitters. The rods, themselves, must have somehow been melted, vaporized, or powdered sufficiently for particles to have migrated any distance away from containment. A sufficiently powerful explosion might do that, as well as the melt-down of rod material, but it would have to be an extremely powerful, hot explosion. Not sure that a hydrogen gas explosion would actually melt or vaporize rod material into sufficiently fine particles that might be thrown into the air and be found a kilometer away. This is all premised upon the assumption that actual particles of Pu have in fact been detected outside the structures, as official and press reports indicate.

Plutonium is not naturally occurring. There is no plutonium milling or processing that occurs at the Fukuyama plant. Therefore, there is no other possible reason that Pu could be found in the soil nearby.

Here's today's AP article that repeats other news reports that Pu has been found at several locations outside containment at the plant: http://apnews.excite.com/article/20110329/D9M8K62G0.html; and, CNN, three different isotopes of Pu found on plant grounds: http://news.blogs.cnn.com/category/world/japan/2011-tsunami/; the samples tested suggest that they are of a type that came from the plant, not atmospheric tests decades ago, http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/2011/03/81702.html

[AndyTiedye]

153. I Think This Might Have Been a Sufficiently Powerful Explosion

[leveymg]

154. More likely, the reactor containment vessels have been breached, as reported here:

From EX-SKF: http://ex-skf.blogspot.com/2011/03/fukushima-i-nuke-plant-reactor-pressure.html

From Asahi Shinbun news http://www.asahi.com/national/update/0328/TKY2011032801... (Japanese) about one hour ago (3:00PM JST 3/28/2011). (Why the hell are they reporting it now?? The information was supposed to have been revealed in the press conference that TEPCO had past midnight on March 28, according to the article):

Tokyo Electric Power Company (TEPCO) admitted to the possibility in its early March 28 press conference that the steel Reactor Pressure Vessels that hold nuclear fuel rods in the Reactors 1, 2, 3 at Fukushima I Nuclear Plant may have broken. TEPCO explained the situation "Imagine there's a hole." Because of this "hole", contaminated water that's been poured into the Pressure Vessels to cool the fuel rods continues to leak, it is assumed.

In the Reactors 1, 2, and 3, the water level within the Pressure Vessels are not rising as much as desired. TEPCO admitted in the March 28 press conference that the reason why the Pressure Vessels haven't been filled with water was "probably a hole near the bottom, that's the image we have". Asked why there was a hole, TEPCO answered they did not know.

The Reactor Pressure Vessels (RPVs) are the most important of the 5-layer protection against radiation leak (other 4 are the fuel pellets, cladding of fuel rods, Container Vessels, and the Reactor buildings). The RPVs at Fukushima I Nuclear Power Plant is made of 16-centimeter thick steel, and it has an outlet at the bottom to insert measuring instruments. It is possible that the leak is from that area.

TEPCO also admitted to the possibility of the exposed nuclear fuel rods overheating and damaging the RPVs. According to the nuclear experts, if the fuel rods get damaged and start to melt, it will fall to the bottom of the RPVs and settle. It then becomes harder to cool with water effectively, because the surface area is smaller. It is possible that the melted fuel rods melted the wall of the RPVs with high temperature and created a hole.

[Oceansaway]

2. K&R...n/t

[Alhena]

3. Pretty close to the worst case scenario there

[ReturnoftheDjedi]

6. that's why they have waited a week to tell us.

[james0tucson]

56. there are much worse case scenarios

There are much, much worse case scenarios than most people seem willing to ponder. One of mine begins with an enemy of Japan, say North Korea, using this opportunity to finish off what remains of Fukushima with light artillery from a sub, which would pretty much amount to a dirty bomb attack on Tokyo - a much more effective weapon than anything they can produce and deliver themselves. The fact that they *haven't* done this actually raises my impression of North Korea a bit.

[Atypical Liberal]

82. Artillery from a sub?

I don't think submarines have carried deck guns since WWII?

[AtheistCrusader]

129. It's a silly scenario.

But there are diesel subs still in service around the world.

But it would, in this extreme hypothetical, be a rocket attack. Under the noses of two US carrier groups, and the JSDF and and and

Not bloody likely.

[ensho]

4. now and forever a LARGE portion of land around those plants will be

off limits to humans. Japan is a much smaller country because of it.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

7. what's the population of Tokyo, 9 million?...they will have to be evacuated ....

[MineralMan]

11. Actually, over 30 million in the Tokyo metro area.

However, this doesn't mean they have to be evacuated. Tokyo is a distance from this plant, and these are ground measurements at the plant site. As long as the material doesn't get moved to Tokyo, there's no need for evacuation due to this cause.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

12. no way...I'll go with maybe 13 or 15 mil...NYC & the 5 bourghs is 28 million

Tokyo isn;t as big as NYC is it?

[MineralMan]

18. Nope.

"A 2007 UN estimate puts the population at 35,676,000,<4> making it the world's most populous metropolitan area by far. "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Tokyo_Area

Sorry. Tokyo is the largest metro area on the planet. It's easy to look up, you know.

[Xicano]

37. List of largest cities and population

Here's a list I found.

The 20 Largest Urban Areas in the World


Urban Center Population

1. Tokyo-Yokohama, Japan 35,200,000
2. Jakarta, Indonesia 22,000,000
3. Mumbai (Bombay), India 21,255,000
4. Delhi, India 20,995,000
5. Manila, Philippines 20,795,000
6. New York City, U.S. 20,610,000
7. São Paulo, Brazil 20,180,000
8. Seoul-Incheon, South Korea 19,910,000
9. Mexico City, Mexico 18,690,000
10. Shanghai, China 18,400,000
11. Cairo, Egypt 17,290,000
12. Osaka-Kobe-Kyoto, Japan 17,000,000
13. Kolkata (Calcutta), India 15,535,000
14. Los Angeles, U.S. 14,775,000
15. Shenzhen, China 14,470,000
16. Beijing (Peking), China 13,955,000
17. Moscow, Russia 13,675,000
18. Guangzhou (Canton)-Foshan, China 13,245,000
19. Istanbul, Turkey 13,165,000
20. Karachi, Pakistan 13,085,000

[ElsewheresDaughter]

85. your list is from so Bible Missionary site ....according to wiki Tokyo 8 mil. doest make the top 10

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_proper_by_population

[whopis01]

137. According to most measures, it is the largest city in the world

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_urban_areas_by_population

http://www.citypopulation.de/world/Agglomerations.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_urban_areas_by_population

[happyslug]

39. NYC is the Fourth Largest metro area, behind Tokyo, Seoul and Mexico City

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_metropolitan_areas_by_population

[ElsewheresDaughter]

86. during working hrs...I'm talking about peploe living in the city...NYC beats Tokyo hands down

[ElsewheresDaughter]

94. you are wrong...scroll down to "Various definitions of Tokyo" on your own quoted site!.. 'Tokyo 8

"Tokyo 8 million"

Manhattan 9 million which is NYC proper

NYC 5 Boroughs = 20 million

[lbrtbell]

21. ?!?!?

It's far bigger, and a lot more dynamic and interesting than NYC could ever hope to be.

TEPCO can B.S. all it wants, this is going to affect Tokyo and other cities before it's all over. :(

[greyghost]

27. You better believe it is!

[aquart]

34. Really no need to insult New York. Really.

You don't like it, don't live here.

[flamingdem]

47. New York is the center of the world

Tokyo is the center of Asia

[stockholmer]

106. actually,for pure centralized power of the global monetary system,the City of London is epicenter

Much is indirect and layered behind strata upon strata of shell holding firms, NGO's, Quangos, banks that hide off-balance sheet accounts off-shore, but London is the motherlode of the tumour.

London was the direct or indirect source of funding for almost all the major USA true power banks, as well as the home of the biggest shareholder in the US Federal Reserve(this being the Bank of England, with a probable 48% stake).

London also sets the main global silver and gold spot prices thru the LBMA http://www.lbma.org.uk/pages/?page_id=53&title=gold_fixings , and the main oil price (Brent Crude which is 60% of the global market) thru the The International Petroleum Exchange, the world's largest energy futures and options exchange.

I have lived in both NYC and London for years, and know many in the financial markets, NYC is the showcase, London is the go place.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

89. I am talking about people living there not commuters who work there

Tokyo 8 million

2009
NYC 20 million

[whopis01]

136. Where are you getting those numbers from?

NYC is just over 8 million (roughly 8.3 million). The New York Metro area has about 19 million (but that covers cities from 4 separate states). There aren't 28 million people in the entire state of NY.

Tokyo proper is about 13 million - but the metro area contains 35 million.

[flamingdem]

45. Wind can do that especially if this is the pulverized MOX version

and they're not letting on about that exactly

[MineralMan]

69. Actually, probably not. The amount is small, but plutonium is a

very heavy metal. It would take a very strong wind to blow it far. Tokyo isn't in the cards for this stuff.

The thing is that, now that they know it's there, they'll take measures to see that it doesn't get spread around. My guess is that it's coming from some of the depleted rods that were in storage, not from the reactor cores. I don't know that for sure, but that's my best guess.

It's a problem, certainly, but it's one that can be managed by local cleanup and packaging.

One of the problems with this whole incident is that a lot of people who don't know very much are posting stuff that's inaccurate as fast as they can. Every part of this incident needs to be carefully and thoughtfully examined to see what it really means. Reports in the news media are often inaccurate, as well, and tend to spread the panicky stuff we're seeing.

I oppose nuclear power generation, and have since 1959. I also oppose panic-mongering that is based on inaccurate information spread by people who don't understand the issues at all. We're having a surplus of that lately.

[flamingdem]

93. I think you're forgetting about tyhoons nt

[MineralMan]

107. No, I'm not, actually.

As I said, they've identified the contaminated spots and will be cleaning them up shortly.

Besides, typhoons are generally accompanied by torrential rains. Not much dust blowing around in them. They're more likely to wash any airborne contaminants back to earth.

[liberation]

116. You might be right, but I do get a chuckle when someone scolds other people's speculations

by putting forth their own speculations without realizing the hypocrisy...

Anyhow, plutonium is indeed a very dense metal. Plutonium dust particles, however, can be easily picked up by winds and are about some of the most toxic materials on earth.

[Caretha]

142. And that would be you

but no surprise

and I quote....from one of the biggest know it-all know nothings on Du.

One of the problems with this whole incident is that a lot of people who don't know very much are posting stuff that's inaccurate as fast as they can.

[ReturnoftheDjedi]

5. this is the "grave" and "unoptimistic" news that the PM got a few days back.

FUCK!!!!!

[SpiralHawk]

8. The k and the r

Wake up, Planet Earth. Take all your atomic poison power away.

[thereismore]

9. OK, so we know for sure that #3 containment has been breached. Looks like time has come to bury

the bastard. The good thing is that the fission reaction has been stopped. The core is generating only 7% residual heat. That buys us some time to put tons of concrete underneath the reactor so it does not bore through into the water table. Just like in Chernobyl, only there they had very little time. Prepare airdrop of lead and boron and sand. Cover the reactor. Draw up plans for a more permanent sarcophagus. As soon as the concrete is underneath, smother it from the top. Temperature will rise, but hopefully the fuel will blend with rock/concrete and will get stuck as it did at Chernobyl.

[PearliePoo2]

14. where is the water table?

Is it possible to tunnel underneath to pour the concrete?

[thereismore]

17. I don't know how deep the water table is. They did dig a tunnel and a room for concrete

below the Chernobyl #4. That was in a landlocked place, however, next to a river. Fukushima may be on a solid rock, for all I know, which would be a big break.

[ReturnoftheDjedi]

35. I heard an expert say the water table is just 3 or 4 feet down at Fukushima

[thereismore]

42. Jesus. nt

[Poll_Blind]

79. Gotta be fucking kidding me...

...

PB

[snagglepuss]

22. I read that reactors/rods need to cool more before being being buried as

sand will turn to glass, inhibiting further cooling. :shrug:

[thereismore]

44. Yes, that also is a lesson from Chernobyl, but in the end, that reactor did stop fissioning.

There may be time when that risk has to be taken. Apparently, they are waiting until there is a full breach of the containment. Until then, they don't want to commit.

[flamingdem]

49. Do you think that's in the works?

Someone noted cement trucks on the premises

But it probably won't be cool for months

[caseymoz]

55. Water table? There's really bad news here.

Unlike Chernobyl, the reactors are right on the edge of the Pacific Ocean. It's good they're working against heat, but you might not have the stable ground underneath there to put concrete under the reactor.

[AndyTiedye]

58. Fission Can Restart in the Melted Fuel

Fission could restart. This may be occurring already.
If it is entombed in concrete, the heat and pressure
would build up, and build up, and build up, until

:nuke:

[thereismore]

63. In theory, yes. But at Chernobyl, apparently, the fuel got mixed with melted concrete

to form a new kind of mineral, forgot its name. It does not have the density necessary to support fission. Lots of scenarios, we could yet get lucky, but who knows.

[leveymg]

76. If you dig down a few meters, you hit the water table. Reactor is right on the ocean. They won't

be able to easily trench down beneath to pour concrete. It will take months to build a containment dam around the site, just so they can pump out the water under the existing structure. Good luck, Tokyo.

[dixiegrrrrl]

138. And where do they put all the radioactive water they pump out?

Turns out that is another thing they did not plan for. There is no designated place for it.

[AndyTiedye]

152. Can They Pump It Back In Again?

It should still be capable of cooling the reactor.

[dixiegrrrrl]

174. They have to pump it out first to find/fix any problems in the reactors.

The question is where are they going to put the pumped out radioactive water?

[lostnfound]

139. This may be a dumb question, but are those materials as readily available

In Japan as in Russia?

[Moostache]

10. But, but, but....Charlie Sheen is still fighting with CBS!

The significance of the "war" in Libya is also amazingly suspect. I am so tired of the "distract-the-media-with-shiny-things" strategy actually WORKING! Its been this way for damn near 20 years but its still utterly depressing.

[axollot]

43. Indeed - a lot more Libya news than significant news re: Japan.

And then we have the fact the place has been FLATTENED and now dangerous levels of radiation! It's time to consider mass evac and the world will need to open it's heart and minds. Japan is very small - plutonium forever lethal - predict it's much worse than we know and we'll continue to get small nuggets of info while distracting us with BS.

Cheers
Sandy

[CoffeeCat]

143. Libya smacks of "wag the dog"...

...and I would not be shocked to learn that we began war games in order
to knock Japan out of the headlines.

Now, Japan is currently a footnote; not even a major story.

Prior to Libya, we were focused on Japan and asking questions--and the contradictory and fuzzy
articles were being noticed for their lack of information.

It was scary to read the comment sections of the NYTimes articles on the Japan radiation. Experts
with credentials would leave their names and experience. Google searches verified their states.
These experts would tear apart the articles. One energy expert commented that one of the experts
quoted in the Times was a well-known nuclear energy lobbyist. The gist of the article was that
there was nothing to worry about.

They had to knock it out of the headlines.

They had to psy op the situation: Libya as a prominent story, with multiple sidebar articles and pictures---overshadows
a bottom-of-the-page short article about Japan. This gives the impression that the Japan situation isn't dire
and Libya is a huge deal. Most people don't find Libya interesting, compelling or a big deal. So they deduce
that the situation in Japan really is nothing to worry about.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

13. 3 types of plutonium detected at Japan's Fukushima Daiichi plant

Three types of plutonium have turned up amid the radioactive contamination on the grounds of the earthquake-damaged Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant, its owner reported Monday.


http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/03/28/3-types-of-plutonium-detected-at-japans-fukushima-daiichi-plant/

[Lars77]

41. "external exposure poses little health risk, according to the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency."

Ah no problem then!

[AndyTiedye]

59. That's Great as Long as You Don't Have to Breathe, or Eat, or Drink

[liberation]

118. This is the same EPA who also said that Ground Zero was safe after the towers collapsed...

... all those rescue workers coughing their lungs out must be faking it obviously.

[Lars77]

173. Sure they were, they were faking it to get government handouts.

Only commies would do something to help others, don't you know?

I'll just add the :sarcasm: just in case. You never know on the internet.

[TacticalPeek]

15. Keep it up.

- R. Cobb

http://roncobb.net/category/cartoons/political/

[Zoonart]

25. Keep it up, indeed!

So long and thanks for all the fish.

So very sad.
:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

[aquart]

31. Nope. We're killing the dolphins, too.

[Journeyman]

16. Well, when you burn garbage you get burnt garbage all over the backyard. . .

They chose to use spent, weapons-grade garbage in their reactors. They believed it was "safe." Anyone who holds the fools in this "industry" in anything less than total contempt is only rolling turds in powdered sugar.

[Baclava]

19. Nothing to see here...move along

Plutonium in soil at Japanese nuke plant

Plutonium has been detected in soil at five places at a tsunami-stricken nuclear plant in Japan, but the levels are not believed to pose a threat to human health, the operator says.

"Of the samples from five locations, we believe there is a high possibility at least two of them are directly linked with the current reactor accident," a spokesman for Tokyo Electric Power Company (TEPCO) said.

But he added: "We believe the level is not serious enough to harm human health."

http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-world/plutonium-in-soil-at-japanese-nuke-plant-20110329-1cdmm.html

[PoliticAverse]

30. Key line in that article...

"The level of plutonium was similar to that detected in Japan after neighbouring countries such as North Korea and China conducted nuclear experiments, the spokesman said."

[ReturnoftheDjedi]

36. these tests were done a week ago, and the leak hasn't been plugged yet.

What makes you think the Plutonium is done leaking??

[PoliticAverse]

40. I don't think anything is done leaking there...

I think the area will have to be mapped out like the Chernobyl exclusion zone was.

[flamingdem]

50. That wins the award for biggest pile of bullshit yet from TEPCO

talk about distracting by pointing to another shiny target

[Baclava]

52. 'Nuclear experiments' = hydrogen bomb tests - China did blow up some big ones

[MineralMan]

70. Yes, as did the USA, and in the Pacific, too.

Lots of nuclear weapons tests. We've just forgotten about them, and the fallout they produced, mostly.

[Baclava]

126. The weapons tests in space were really scary, and NOBODY ever talks about them

Starfish Prime

Launched via a Thor rocket and carrying a W49 thermonuclear warhead (manufactured by Los Alamos Scientific Laboratory) and a Mk. 4 reentry vehicle, the explosion took place 250 miles (400 kilometers) above a point 19 miles (31 kilometers) southwest of Johnston Island in the Pacific Ocean. It was one of five tests conducted by the USA in outer space. It produced a yield equivalent to 1.4 megatons of TNT. (wiki)


The debris fireball stretching along Earth's magnetic field





The flash created by the explosion as seen through heavy cloud cover from Honolulu 1,445 km away

[MineralMan]

132. Yup. We have very short attention spans. We just don't remember

things very well. Odd, isn't it.

[defendandprotect]

20. Plutonium -- the proof of the insanity running the nuclear power industry -- !!

And our government --

The effort to try to convince Americans that they needn't "Ban the Bomb!" led to the

attempt to convince them that nuclear energy had a peaceful use -- i.e., nuclear reactors!

It's all a sham --

[PoliticAverse]

23. From 2008: Chernobyl Fallout? Plutonium Found In Swedish Soil

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/10/081001130000.htm

The paper mentioned in the article (pdf format):
http://www.radioecology.info/Bergen2008/proceedings/174.%20Matisoff%20Gerald%20OP.pdf

[defendandprotect]

24. K 'n R --

[TBF]

26. K&R nt

[RedCloud]

28. Freaking plutocrats leaking plutonium for profits.

[flamingdem]

51. Recycling weapons grade plutonium into MOX is BIG BUSINESS

We haven't seen the end of this MOX crap

[AndyTiedye]

66. Plutonium Was Always the Dirty Secret Behind Nuclear Power

There isn't enough uranium to run the nukes for all that long.
We'll run out of that before we run out of oil.
Reprocessing the spent fuel and running the plants on plutonium
was always the plan. They lie when they claim otherwise.

Plutonium is really, really bad for you, and everybody knows that.
It is also the stuff that :nuke::nuke: are made of.
So they call it "MOX", and never even mention the "P" word.

[greyghost]

29. Hey, we are enabling them! Here's a question you better keep...

asking yourself: Why isn't the US Navy releasing the data they have been gathering on this unmitigated disaster since day one!

[axollot]

46. because it's too f'ing scary. Afraid of mass panic, meanwhile it just

gets worse and lets not forget they just dealt with a 9.0 earthquake and a huge ass tsunami that flattened everything it could - which seems to get lost amongst the news of Libya and Fukushima. People of Japan need help and we know the longer they sit there the worse off they are - mass evac should have already started.

Cheers
Sandy

ps hate to sound so fatalistic and not happy I called what happened at this plant from the get go. Pretty sure they did too but they needed people to stay to try and fix it. Like Chernobyl, those that stayed to help have given their lives up and face a nasty death.

[greyghost]

131. You are not being fatalistic...

you are being factual. Yes, mass evacuation should have started days ago. And just like Chernobyl these heroic workers are already dead.

[Uncle Joe]

32. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, IScreamSundays.

[aquart]

33. What about the people they told to stay indoors?

The ones between 20 and 30km? Did they get them out?

[suffragette]

97. Looks like they haven't and, even though Greenpeace has now produced

independent measurements of high radiation, they still arent.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/28/us-japan-zone-idUSLKE7DP00720110328

TOKYO | Mon Mar 28, 2011 9:04am EDT

TOKYO (Reuters) - Japan's nuclear safety agency on Monday rebuffed a call by Greenpeace to extend an evacuation zone around the stricken Fukushima power plant.

An agency official told a news briefing that the measurements of high radiation the group said it had found at 40 km (255 miles)(sic) from the facility could not be considered reliable.

He added that most residents in the area concerned had left and hardly anyone was living there anymore.

The environmental group earlier said it had confirmed radiation levels of up to 10 microsieverts per hour in Iitate village, 40 km (25 miles) northwest of the nuclear plant.

Japanese authorities have evacuated an area within a 20 km (12.5 miles) radius of the crippled Fukushima plant where engineers are battling to bring reactors under control following the March 11 earthquake and tsunami.

They have advised people from 20-30 km to stay indoors.




Note: I added the sic for the obvious reporter error of 255 miles. Reporter has what looks to be correct amount of 40 km (25 miles)later in article.


Something I am wondering. Are some of the people still there because they need assistance in moving? At what point do the zones become mandatory rather than voluntary, especially since voluntary may put more burden of moving on the people themselves.

[WheelWalker]

38. I find it difficult to recommend plutonium,

even if it's just the subject of a paragraph. But what the hell... I guess for all practical purposes, it's here to stay.
:kick:

[Nothing Without Hope]

48. ANOTHER LINK - Some more on the plutonium from Reuters:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/28/japan-idUSL3E7ES2ND20110328

WRAPUP 1-Plutonium found, problems mount at Japan n-plant

(snip)
Muto said the level was similar to that found in the past in other parts of Japan as a result of nuclear testing abroad. He said it was unclear where the plutonium was from, although it appeared two of the five finds were related to damage from the plant rather than from the atmosphere.

The International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), the United Nations nuclear watchdog, said the find was to be expected.

"It is reactor-grade plutonium which is formed into the reactor as far as we can see," IAEA official Denis Flory said. "It means that there is degradation of the fuel, which is not news. We have been saying that consistently for so many days."

The plutonium discovery, from samples taken a week ago, was reported after TEPCO said on Monday highly radioactive water had been leaking from one reactor.
(snip)

[thereismore]

65. Not new!? Fuck. The fact that it's dispersing is the fucking news! I hate these wordsmiths. nt

[caseymoz]

53. Oh, that is really bad.

Any amount of it in a human body is fatal and it's impossible to get rid of. I've always been of the opinion that merely making it should be a crime against humanity.

[Myrina]

54. ... I'm expecting Godzilla any day now ...

... and he ain't gonna be happy.

[ooglymoogly]

57. Sanity demands that all nuclear power plants be shut down

and no more built ever....So is there any sanity left in this world, or has greed taken its place?

[GliderGuider]

62. "So is there any sanity left in this world, or has greed taken its place?"

I love answering rhetorical questions.

"There ain't no Sanity Clause." ~Chico Marx

"The point is, ladies and gentleman, that greed, for lack of a better word, is good. Greed is right, greed works. Greed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit. Greed, in all of its forms; greed for life, for money, for love, knowledge has marked the upward surge of mankind." ~Gordon Gekko

:nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke:

[bvar22]

60. Everybody just calm down.

They are only venting a little steam.
There is absolutely nothing to worry about.
These reactors are perfectly safe.
I know Science, and I'm smarter and smugger than you,
so you should listen to me!

Besides that, COAL has killed a lot of people!

[Raschel]

98. Hey where are those people now. You know, the ones that said they can assure us the ocean's safe, or

we're fearmongers who don't know science. :puke:

[bvar22]

133. They are all waiting for the fax ....

...with the Pro-Corpo talking points.

[Taft_Bathtub]

149. No, we're waiting for more than just one sentence

Continue the UH OH squad though, the report doesn't even say how much plutonium they found.

[CoffeeCat]

144. and don't forget...

...that eating a banana will cause you to be exposed to a certain amount of radiation.

Well. Have YOU ever eaten a banana? And are you dead?

No! You're alive!

It's all good, party people!

[Zorra]

61. More lies by anti-nuke environmentalist hippie communists.

These degenerates been spreading their anti-nuclear propaganda for years.

Don't believe them.

Nuclear power is completely safe.

[democrank]

64. Agreed, Zorra

The anti-nuclear hippies are dangerous, I tell you.They even think we should make things out of hemp! I say forget wind turbines, build more nuclear plants and drill, baby. drill.

[Zorra]

78. Now, that's what I'm talkin' about! "Death From The Air!....

(and the water, and the soil, etc).

Hemp. *snort*
:hi:

[freshwest]

128. A moment of nature in an insane world... thanks.

[DeSwiss]

67. K&R n/t

[hunter]

68. URGENT: Plutonium detected in soil at Hanford nuke plant

Clearly we need to evacuate Washington and Oregon State!!!

Okay, it is a mess to clean up, but not a cause for panic.

All this anti-nuclear stuff diminishes the truly horrific catastrophe of the tsunami itself.

Entire cities were destroyed, tens of thousands killed, dams collapsed, industrial toxins spread far and wide, yet so many people can't seem to think of anything but these nuclear plants...

It's sad.

[G_j]

71. guess what

both my parents worked at Hanford at the beginning. Both died of lung cancer decades later.
There is no iron clad proof it was the plutonium, but.....

[MineralMan]

75. Working with radioactive materials is most definitely unsafe.

Living 50 miles from them is not so unsafe. I'm very sorry about your parents. Not enough was known back then, I'm afraid, or was ignored.

Marie Curie died from handling radioactive materials, too. Lots of early workers in radioactivity died. Better precautions are in place for workers, now, but it still remains a long-term risk for anyone in that business.

[G_j]

127. a bit more:

background,

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=662100&mesg_id=662100

[MineralMan]

72. Very good. Why, right outside of the Hanford site, there are

farms, growing food for unsuspecting Americans. You can see it on the Google. Many, many farms, right up to the fence around the Hanford facility. The horror!

Back in Japan, far more people have already died from the tsunami than will die in the next hundred years due to the Fukushima incident. The mortality rate in Japan won't even change measurably. We're panicking about the wrong stuff here, bad as it is. Perspective is important.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

145. "far more people have already died from the tsunami than will die in the next hundred years due to

the Fukushima incident.

Nostradumbass? Is that you?

My God, but you are amazing in your "logical" prognostications. Perhaps your intelligence does not give you free reign to predict the future.

Just a thought from another "thinker".

[Tikki]

73. Do you believe there are long term health..

issues for people living around Hanford?*



Tikki




*answer:yes, there are...

[MineralMan]

77. There may be, depending on how much of the radioactive material

has gotten out of the Hanford site. But, you already answered your question, so you knew that. And yet, despite that, people still choose to live in that area. The risk is known, but they still live there. As I pointed out, there are many farms in the area immediately adjacent to the Hanford facility.

I doubt that the mortality rate in the general Hanford area is measurably higher than in the rest of that state. It would be interesting to see if that is the case.

In an individual case, illness or death might be traced to the Hanford facility. On a general population basis, it's unlikely that any statistics will show the risk. That's why people continue to live in the area. Life's risky. People make choices.

[Tikki]

83. Lets see...Oil Feeds My Family, NUKE Feeds My Family..

Coal Mining Feeds My Family...list goes on...
Plus for decades Hanford had the likes of Ronnie Raygun and others
stopping by to tell them what good and patriotic people they
were and GE and other contractors at Hanford pointed
to the 'Safety Boards' put up all over the region
to show how few people lost a finger or an eye at work
but what about the thyroid diseases, prostate diseases and Cancers.
The slow, insidious heath issues that rob you of your future.

Of this, I know.


Tikki

[MineralMan]

84. What does that have to do with what I wrote?

I simply stated the facts as they are.

[Tikki]

87. My only complaint is the danger to population's health....

I have no problem with the structures...lot's of places have
huge crumbling concrete and rusting metal monolith like structures looming off in the horizon...


Tikki

[MineralMan]

96. Yes, there is a danger. We made a big mistake by getting involved

in a nuclear arms race. The power generation thing was a spin off of that. Nuclear stuff just isn't safe. That has not stopped us from building power plants and testing bombs, though. We've already contaminated the planet with the stuff. The effects of that aren't precisely known, but our mortality rate has dropped and our longevity has increased since 1945, when it all began.

So, there's not a lot of statistical information proving that it's harmful. We know it is, but the significance of it isn't known, due to there being too many variables in the equation.

Don't mistake my factual information with support of the nuclear power industry. I do not support it. I've opposed it since 1959, when a small reactor near my home in California had a meltdown and contaminated an unknown area around it. I still oppose it. I also oppose panicky reactions not based on actual fact.

[Tikki]

104. Are you talking about the Santa Susanna reactor?

Maybe you already know there is an active cleanup going on there now.
50+ years later is better than never.

This is the Cal County I live in now so this progress means a great deal
to me...I only wish there could be the same cleaning for Hanford, alas, they
just move waste around and around and bury it a little deeper...

Tikki

[MineralMan]

108. Yup. I lived in Fillmore, just over the hill to the East of

Santa Susana (one S in the middle.) I actually visited that reactor on an 8th grade science club field trip the year before the meltdown. We got to look down into the actual reactor core. Cool, huh?

There's an entry in my journal about the meltdown, from the perspective of a 13-year-old kid living nearby. http://journals.democraticunderground.com/MineralMan/133

[hunter]

123. I've got family living less than two miles as the crow flies from the Santa Susana reactor site.

An easy walk or jog before breakfast.

Speaking from personal experience, one can jog almost anywhere. In my reckless youth, I did.

Furthermore, one who looks like he desperately needs a sandwich and a shower might also dig through dumpsters unmolested. I'm thinking I might cultivate that look again when I'm in my seventies or so, just because it was so much fun and I found so many interesting things. But for now I have to stick with jogging.

At Santa Susanna any radioactive toxins that spilled are a tiny fraction of the overall mess. I think what's going on now mostly has to do with making the area legally safe for property developers, which is a very different thing than actual safety.

[Tikki]

124. I agree with you...there is a lot of money to..

be made there once that land is deemed safe and clear near the Santa Susanna Pass.
I do believe that the smaller amounts of contaminated soil can be reclaimed..
but the NUKE waste is a problem that is massive in some corners
of this World and there really isn't anything more special about Ventura/N. LA County
people (oh, except maybe you and me:)) then other people who share the burden from this industry.


Tikki

[hunter]

88. I live in a stew of agricultural chemicals.

I'm certain those have caused me more damage than any radioactivity I've been exposed to. Above ground atomic tests were still common when I was a kid and I've had jobs where I worked with radioactive stuff and worn a dosimeter.

The debate about chemical Endocrine disruptors (wikipedia) is very similar to the debate about radiation. I think many, if not the majority, of so-called "cancer clusters" surrounding nuclear power sites (those that are not random) are the consequence of agricultural and industrial chemical pollution.

[Tikki]

74. ...

[readmoreoften]

81. False dichotomy.

Wait? We can't both care about the devastation of the tsunami, want to send food, blankets, and supplies to refugees of a horrible natural disaster that is now done with its destruction... AND be concerned about an ongoing, unsolved, uncertain man-made disaster that is not under control?

That doesn't even make any sense.

[buddysmellgood]

91. Thanks for calling bullshit on that. I've had the same thought.

[flamingdem]

95. But that's not from a melting down reactor with MOX rods

Not to mention the rods that might be strewn around due to the explosion

[Raschel]

101. No it's not sad. We all have an interest in what happens to our world environment.

[flamingdem]

92. Is this an ELE? (The Mayans..)

An extinction event (also known as: mass extinction; extinction-level event (ELE)

[MineralMan]

100. Nope. Not even close.

That will come from a large asteroid or comet, not from a nuclear power plant. Proportion, please.

[flamingdem]

103. I like your answer MM

... some good news at least

The Mayans don't know nuthin

[MineralMan]

109. Actually, they didn't. That was their religion that produced that

calendar. It's as accurate as most religions are.

Asteroids and comets have nothing to do with religion.

[flamingdem]

112. You're saying they were separate from their religion?

Not sure I follow

[MineralMan]

114. No, I'm saying that calendars for the future that are based on

religion are unreliable.

[flamingdem]

115. Let's hope so! nt

[suffragette]

102. So, if these are from a week ago, has there been any report yet

with updated/current numbers?

Also, has there been any comparison done with the rising numbers in the seawater in terms of the timeline for this?

[flamingdem]

105. Good luck with that, it's be pulling teeth to get current levels

They seem to have had these numbers for a while without sharing

[MineralMan]

110. Actually, you're incorrect. See this link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x284132

Data including 3/27 for radioactive isotopes in the air at the plant, in detail. You just missed the post, I guess. The data's out there, and more is available every day.

[flamingdem]

111. It is data from March 22, and the question is how much more Pu there is now nt

[MineralMan]

113. No. there's data in those pdfs though 3/27.

Sorry. The data begins on 3/22 and ends on 3/27.

[suffragette]

120. Since the report was about the soil, does this have updated

numbers for that specifically?

[MineralMan]

172. No. Those documents only dealt with the air, not the soil.

The trouble a lot of us are having is the scattered nature of the documentation. We have to rely on Japanese sources for it, and that makes it more difficult to find. As far as I know, the company that owns the reactors is not obligated to release any information to US media outlets. It may not even be legally obligated to release any information to any media outlets.

The data's out there, I'm sure, but may be hard for us to locate, here in the United States.

[suffragette]

122. A question I have is that Tepco released increased numbers for seawater

Many sources for that. Here's one:

http://www.npr.org/2011/03/28/134912696/radiation-in-seawater-may-be-spreading-in-japan

Closer to the plant, radioactivity in seawater tested about 1,250 times higher than normal last week and climbed to 1,850 times normal over the weekend. Nishiyama said the increase was a concern but the area was not a source of seafood.


So, the seawater tested higher than normal last week and rose over the weekend.




Yesterday, we had a report that it was "inconceivable" that radioactive water from reactor buildings could enter sea

From yesterday:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/27/japan-radiation-idUSS7E7ER00020110327

Japan nuclear regulator: no chance radioactive water could enter sea

11:00pm PDT

TOKYO, March 27 | Sun Mar 27, 2011 8:07am EDT

TOKYO, March 27 (Reuters) - There is no chance that highly radioactive water from reactor tubine (sic) buildings at Japan's stricken nuclear plant could flow into the sea, the country's Nuclear Safety Agency said on Sunday.

"Itt (sic) is inconceivable that this should happen. We think there is no chance of the stagnant water (in the buildings) flowing directly into the ocean," a senior agency official told a news briefing when asked about such a scenario.

Separately, Tokyo Electric Power Co., the operator of the plant, said extremely high radioactivity readings from reactor No. 2 reported earlier on Sunday, might be wrong. (Writing by Tomasz Janowski)



But, we now have the report that - also from last week - they have found plutonium in the soil outside the reactor and high radiation in water in a trench outside the reactor.




http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/2011/03/81532.html

High-level radiation detected in trench outside Fukushima reactor building

TOKYO, March 28, Kyodo

High levels of radiation exceeding 1,000 millisieverts per hour were found in water in a trench outside the No. 2 reactor's turbine building at the troubled nuclear power plant in Fukushima on Sunday afternoon, Tokyo Electric Power Co. said Monday.

One end of the tunnel-like trench is located about 55 meters from the shore, with the surface of the water staying about 1 meter below its ground-level hole. But no trace has been confirmed of the contaminated water having flowed into the sea, an official of the company said.

Similarly high levels of radioactivity have been found in a pool of water in the basement of the turbine building for the No. 2 reactor at the Fukushima Daiichi complex, raising concerns that radioactive substances may have seeped into the environment, including the sea nearby.

The level of radiation at a similar trench for the No. 1 reactor was 0.4 millisievert per hour, the utility company said, adding that radiation could not be measured at a similar location for the No. 3 unit due to difficulty getting there.


Has Tepco or independent sources looked at this information to examine if there's cause and effect, particularly given the rising numbers in the water over the weekend.

[AtheistCrusader]

130. You know, I gave TEPCO and the GE reactor design every benefit of the doubt so far.

Looks like I'm fucked again.

They don't seem to be taking any of this shit seriously. If they are, there's some fog of culture keeping me from seeing it. Seems like GE ought to be sending over plane loads of people familiar with this reactor design. TEPCO should be pulling workers from every site they can spare around the country. There is a damn manpower issue here, first and foremost.

Or there WAS, and now it's too late and the site is too contaminated.

This is pretty much the ultimate BWR design fuckup. I'm really impressed how bad it's gotten.

[suffragette]

134. Yes, and they should have accepted offers from other nations

to send teams to the plant at the onset.

Unless this has changed from yesterday, they still won't even let independent monitors in to oversee the checks:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/story/2011/03/28/japan-mon-troubles.html
CBC News
Posted: Mar 28, 2011 1:44 AM ET
Last Updated: Mar 28, 2011 7:04 PM ET

A few hours later, TEPCO vice-president Sakae Muto said a new test had found radiation levels 100,000 times above normal — still very high.

Despite the errors, he ruled out having an independent monitor oversee the various checks.

[fedsron2us]

125. The nuclear industry would not exist as a commercial entity

if the cost of dealing with accidents was not explicitly underwritten by governments using taxpayers money as in the Price-Anderson Nuclear Industry Indemnity Act and its equivalents elsewhere in the world. Those who claim that the nuclear industry is as safe as other forms of energy production need to explain why can you buy insurance in the open market to cover accidents governing gas, oil, coal extraction etc and fossil fuel power plants but not for nuclear facilities. The reluctance of the insurers to offer cover says all you need to know about the potential risks.

In Japan it looks likely that most of the cost of the nuclear disaster will fall on the taxpayer not TEPCO

http://m.smh.com.au/world/taxpayers-slugged-with-most-of-cleanup-cost-20110324-1c8ed.html

[Paradoxical]

148. It's because the risk associated with a nuclear accident is much higher, not that it's more likely.

Insurance companies don't just weigh risk of occurrence. They also weigh severity of an accident.

A nuclear power plant is much less likely to suffer from a catastrophic accident than other power generating stations. But the consequences of such an accident, if it were to occur, are much higher.

Your comparison does not take that into account and is not a legitimate argument against nuclear energy; by itself.

[WestSeattle2]

135. But the seafood harvested from around the plant site is safe to eat...

honest!

[Paradoxical]

147. Clearly no one has suggested that. Even the government is stating otherwise.

Why waste a post with such nonsense?

[SpoonFed]

140. snail?

where is that giant atomic snail that somebody mentioned a week ago? now that they can wash away all that salt with the fresh water, it should be able to go in there and gobble up all that plutonium. sweet!

ps. pro-nuke hobby lobby, any better ideas yet?

[trud]

150. Every hour more uninformed hysteria

"Traces of plutonium are not uncommon in soil because they were deposited worldwide during the atmospheric nuclear testing era. However, the isotopic composition of the plutonium found at Fukushima Daiichi suggests the material came from the reactor site, according to TEPCO officials. Still, the quantity of plutonium found does not exceed background levels tracked by Japan's Ministry of Education, Culture, Sports, Science and Technology over the past 30 years."

[Raschel]

151. Edano himself said the situation is "very grave". Is he being hysterical too?

And you're using TEPCO as a source? They say themselves they don't know what's going on, and if they don't know what's going on, then I'm sure you don't either.

[Omaha Steve]

155. Toxic plutonium seeping from Japan's nuclear plant (coming from damaged nuclear fuel rods)

Source: AP

By YURI KAGEYAMA and SHINO YUASA

TOKYO (AP) - Highly toxic plutonium is seeping from the damaged nuclear power plant in Japan's tsunami disaster zone into the soil outside, officials said Tuesday, heightening concerns about the expanding spread of radiation.

Plutonium was detected at several spots outside the Fukushima Dai-ichi power plant - the first confirmed presence of the dangerously radioactive substance, plant operator Tokyo Electric Power Co. said.

There are strong indications some of the radioactivity is coming from damaged nuclear fuel rods, a worrying development in the race to bring the power plant under control, Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano said Tuesday.

"The situation is very grave," Edano told reporters. "We are doing our utmost efforts to contain the damage."


Read more: http://apnews.excite.com/article/20110329/D9M8K62G0.html

[JohnyCanuck]

156. Not a problem....

We'll probably soon find out Ann Coulter has her doctor inject her face with plutonium, because it works even better than botox. :sarcasm:

[WheelWalker]

159. I think they call that

the "hotbox".

[AndyTiedye]

167. Wraiths and other Undead Creatures Thrive on Radiation. It is How they are Created

[gateley]

157. I know there are "levels", but I think any amount of any of that crap is toxic. nt

[WheelWalker]

160. We've had a lifetime dose

just thinking about it.

[gateley]

164. ...

:pals: :loveya:

[WheelWalker]

168. ...

Blessings, Milady

[Frisbee]

162. Yeah, Plutonium is in a whole other league...

from Uranium, Cesium and Iodine. I can't even begin to imagine the devastation if it finds it's way into the water table.

[gateley]

165. I didn't know that. Sigh. Why do we even fuck with this stuff?

I know the answer -- "profit" -- but this is something that affects everyone. I don't care how rich you are, you're not immune. :cry:

[WheelWalker]

158. "deplorable"

:kick:

[tomm2thumbs]

161. "The situation is very grave," Edano told reporters.

about sums it up

[WheelWalker]

163. That word, "grave" . . . it's one of those words

that speaks so eloquently for itself.

[Name removed]

166. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AsahinaKimi]

169. Scary, all of it...

I wonder how many Japanese are considering leaving Japan for good? I know my father has offered his brother in Osaka and his family, a place to say in the States, if things become bad.

[FarLeftFist]

170. When plutonium decays, it emits what is known as an alpha particle

A relatively big particle that carries a lot of energy. When an alpha particle hits body tissue, it can damage the DNA of a cell and lead to a cancer-causing mutation.
Plutonium also breaks down very slowly, so it remains dangerously radioactive for hundreds of thousands of years.
If you inhale it, it's there and it stays there forever.

[leveymg]

171. Reports of Plutonium release go with this one that the reactor vessels have been breached:

From EX-SKF: http://ex-skf.blogspot.com/2011/03/fukushima-i-nuke-plant-reactor-pressure.html

From Asahi Shinbun news http://www.asahi.com/national/update/0328/TKY2011032801... (Japanese) about one hour ago (3:00PM JST 3/28/2011). (Why the hell are they reporting it now?? The information was supposed to have been revealed in the press conference that TEPCO had past midnight on March 28, according to the article):

Tokyo Electric Power Company (TEPCO) admitted to the possibility in its early March 28 press conference that the steel Reactor Pressure Vessels that hold nuclear fuel rods in the Reactors 1, 2, 3 at Fukushima I Nuclear Plant may have broken. TEPCO explained the situation "Imagine there's a hole." Because of this "hole", contaminated water that's been poured into the Pressure Vessels to cool the fuel rods continues to leak, it is assumed.

In the Reactors 1, 2, and 3, the water level within the Pressure Vessels are not rising as much as desired. TEPCO admitted in the March 28 press conference that the reason why the Pressure Vessels haven't been filled with water was "probably a hole near the bottom, that's the image we have". Asked why there was a hole, TEPCO answered they did not know.

The Reactor Pressure Vessels (RPVs) are the most important of the 5-layer protection against radiation leak (other 4 are the fuel pellets, cladding of fuel rods, Container Vessels, and the Reactor buildings). The RPVs at Fukushima I Nuclear Power Plant is made of 16-centimeter thick steel, and it has an outlet at the bottom to insert measuring instruments. It is possible that the leak is from that area.

TEPCO also admitted to the possibility of the exposed nuclear fuel rods overheating and damaging the RPVs. According to the nuclear experts, if the fuel rods get damaged and start to melt, it will fall to the bottom of the RPVs and settle. It then becomes harder to cool with water effectively, because the surface area is smaller. It is possible that the melted fuel rods melted the wall of the RPVs with high temperature and created a hole.