Libyan woman sued by men she alleges raped her, official says

[oberliner]

Source: MSNBC

A Libyan lawyer who claimed she was raped by troops loyal to leader Moammar Gadhafi is being sued by the four men under investigation, Libya's main government spokesman said Tuesday.

Moussa Ibrahim told NBC News that the men were filing a defamation case against Iman al-Obeidi, who made headlines when she went to a Tripoli hotel used by Western journalists to tell them about the alleged attack.

Read more: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42318419/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa/

[midnight]

1. Is this law suit being used to block evidence?

[joshcryer]

2. It's being used to oppress a rape victim.

They're claiming she was a "prostitute" and you can't "rape a prostitute." Duh.

[oberliner]

4. Do you have more details on this case?

They seem hard to come by.

[happyslug]

5. Could also be to show no such rape occurred.

Remember, the victim is an attorney and instead of going to the local Police and reporting the crime, she went to the media instead. Now, the above may just be the Government's lies, but it is the position being taken by the alleged rapists. Libya, and most of the world, do NOT extend Freedom of Speech to false statements, that is still considered slander in most of the world (Including England). Slander is even actionable in the US, if you first get around the First Amendment's Freedom of Speech clause and you can show economic harm.

Lets give the accused the benefit of the doubt, what if the statement is False (or more accurately False as to them, i.e. she may have been raped, but NOT by the people she says raped her) under Islamic law they can be executed for that crime. They can lose economic contacts do to people's decision NOT to deal with a rapist (Even if the rape never occurred). How can they recover they reputation except in a lawsuit?

One more note, in most of the world it is the accuser who has the burden of proof. In the case of Rape, the victim has to show she was raped and who did the raping. In the case if Libel, the person's whose name has been libeled must show that the accusation is false in addition to being harmful. Thus in many ways, the alleged Rapists have switched the burden of proof from the alleged victim to themselves. That puts up warning bells in my head, the alleged rapists either have evidence that shows the alleged victim was NOT raped OR evidence that they had nothing to do with it (or they have control of the Courts so that the Court will make the finding, please note no one is making that accusation in the Article, but it is a possibility).

As to the accusation that she is a prostitute, that accusation of being a prostitute was made by others, NOT the people suing her for liable. The Alleged Rapists are only saying the accusation that they raped her is false.

[Green_Lantern]

7. no that's not always true...

Rape victims aren't told "It's too bad you don't have hard evidence of your rape" before the police take her seriously or investigate.

We certainly don't allow an accused rapist sue the alleged victim while the investigation should be occuring.

Also explain why the police detained her as the story I posted above says.

[happyslug]

12. The law is clear, even in the US, there is no law prohibiting such a lawsuit

Torts statute of limitations is the same as criminal statue of limitation in many states, i.e. Thus if you are wrongfully accused of rape by someone, you have only two years to file a libel action, the exact same amount of time the alleged victim can file a criminal charge. Both will be scheduled.

Now, it the US, unless you can show actual damages in the form of money lost (and you are NOT a public figure), it is useless to file a libel charge, thus it is rarely done in the US (This is assuming you can convince a Jury that the Rape did NOT occur, truth is an absolute defense against libel). On the other hand that does NOT mean it can not one can NOT sue for libel in the, it is just NOT done on a regular basis, it is perfectly legal to bring the action of libel even while criminal charges are being brought against the person saying he was libeled. In fact, in most cases, if the alleged rapist wait till after the criminal trial, it is to late to bring the libel action even if at the criminal trial it is show that the alleged victim lied and the lie was meant to do harm to the alleged rapist.

[Green_Lantern]

13. I'm sorry I misspoke...she isn't being sued..it's criminal charges..

I'm not sure charging rape accusers with defamation is a good thing.

[Turborama]

17. You didn't misspeak, the OP says she is being sued.

In the title and then this...

A Libyan lawyer who claimed she was raped by troops loyal to leader Moammar Gadhafi is being sued by the four men under investigation, Libya's main government spokesman said Tuesday.

[Green_Lantern]

18. well, regardless she was still detained by police and lawyers

Are being kept from her. Odd treatment for an alleged rape victim.

[Turborama]

21. "it's a grave offense to accuse someone of a sexual crime" <--- Gaddafi's mouthpiece, Mussa Ibrahim

Honestly, how can anyone defend a regime where accusing someone of a sexual crime is a "grave offense"?

Source of the quote: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2011/mar/29/libya-crisis-live-updates?commentpage=2#start-of-comments#block-17

[happyslug]

26. Under the Common Law, Libel was a CRIMINAL act

Now, you must understand that prior to about 1820, if you were a victim of crime, you had to bring the Criminal to trial i.e. prosecute the Criminal just like if you were suing the criminal civilly. The Attorney General was the Kings (and later the State's) Attorney, for cases the STATE was involved in i.e. Crimes against the state NOT crimes against individuals (there were exceptions to this rule, for example the Attorney General would bring actions against father of unwed mothers for support of his child, but that was an exception. On the other hand even MURDER had to be brought by the family of the person murdered, not the state).

In the 1820s and 1830s what we call "District Attorneys" were invented in the US to bring Criminal Charges against people who had committed crimes against people who could NOT afford an attorney. The United Kingdom followed the US in this matter, but both in the US and the UK the practice of bringing your own criminal action against criminal who has committed a crime against you survived while into the 20th century in both nations (Through what criminal actions could be brought has been reduced, today the only criminal charges one can file yourself are summary offenses an then only if you have permission of the local District Attorney).

I go into this history for before the above became the practice of Criminal law in the UK and the US, what was criminal and what was civil could be unclear. During the Colonial period it was common for criminals to agree to be shipped and sold to the American Colonies BEFORE they were convicted (It was against International law to ship criminals overseas, a law respected by the UK till the UK decided it needed colonists to Australia in the 1780s).

My point is the difference between Criminal and Civil Sanctions are a recent development in most of the world (Since around 1800). In many aspects it is still unclear what is Civil and what is Criminal. Zenger of the famous Zenger libel case in the early 1700s, was charged with CRIMINAL libel not civil libel for calling the Royal Governor of New York Corrupt and then proving it (At that time the rule of law was "The Greater the Truth, the Greater the Libel).

More on the Zenger Case:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Peter_Zenger

Notice, in the Zenger case, Zenger was brought up on a CRIMINAL charge of libel not a civil Charge (and thus had to sit in Jail for Nine Months till the Case went to trial).

My point is simple, while libel has NOT been a Crime since the Revolution, it was a crime prior to that date even in the English speaking world. Thus it does not surprise me that it is still a criminal act in some countries.

[Green_Lantern]

31. and the First amendment was designed to protect people from

The govt. prosecuting people for "seditious libel".

[Turborama]

10. Arrests After Benghazi Woman's Rape Claim - Including Son Of High-ranking Libyan Police Officer

This would explain why instead of going to the local Police to report the crime she went to the media instead....

10:23pm UK, Sunday March 27, 2011

Tom Rayner, Sky News producer, in Tripoli

The son of a high-ranking Libyan police officer is thought to be among five people arrested after a woman claimed she was raped and tortured by men connected to Colonel Gaddafi's regime.

In a conversation with Sky News, Libya's deputy foreign minister Khalid Kaim said the men were being detained as part of a criminal investigation into the rape allegations made by Iman al-Obeidi.

Ms al-Obeidi was manhandled by waitresses and government minders yesterday morning as she attempted to speak to journalists at the Rixos Hotel in Tripoli.

=snip=

In reference to yesterday's dramatic scenes in the hotel restaurant, Mr Kaim acknowledged that the security staff had "mishandled" the incident, and that no weapons should have been drawn.

Full article: http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Iman-al-Obeidi-Rape-and-Torture-Allegations-Arrests-Made-After-Woman-Burst-Into-Tripoli-Hotel/Article/200812415960967?lpos=World_News_Top_Stories_Header_1&lid=ARTICLE_15960967_Iman_al-Obeidi_Rape_and_Tortur

Also posted here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4789481

I'm not going to bother with the rest of your post because just that 1st sentence proves you don't know what you're talking about.

[Green_Lantern]

11. and to add to your post..

Slander suits against an alleged rape victim wouldn't happen before an investigation into her criminal complaint.

Also it'd force rape victims to refuse to report a rape if they could be sued just for reporting it.

[StarsInHerHair]

25. yet you CAN, how barbaric they are

nt

[joshcryer]

3. Only in a progressive and democratic state can this be possible!

:puke:

(Referring to some comments I saw.)

[Green_Lantern]

6. this sounds like intimidation based on these further details..

"Look at what Gadhafi's brigades did to me," she said. "My honor was violated by them." Al-Obeidy displayed what appeared to be visible rope burns on her wrists and ankles.

Government officials tried to stifle her, but she persisted. Security forces moved to subdue her, and even a member of the hotel's kitchen staff drew a knife. "Traitor!" he shouted. Another staffer tried to throw a dark tablecloth over her head.

One government official, who was there to facilitate access for journalists, pulled a pistol from his belt. Others scuffled with reporters and wrestled them to the ground in an attempt to take away their equipment. Some journalists were beaten and kicked. CNN's camera was confiscated and deliberately smashed beyond repair.

As security forces subdued the screaming woman and dragged her away, al-Obeidy warned, "If you don't see me tomorrow, then that's it."

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/03/29/libya.rape.case/index.html?hpt=C1


Do even alleged rape victims require such demeaning treatment?

[Beacool]

8. Well, if that doesn't just take the cake!!!!

"Al-Obeidi's parents said in interviews on Al-Jazeera TV aired Monday that their daughter was being held hostage at the Libyan leader's compound in Tripoli, countering government claims that she had been set free after the hotel incident.

They also denied allegations by Ibrahim that al-Obeidi was a prostitute.

The parents said al-Obeidi was a lawyer and that she was now being held at Gadhafi's compound in Bab Al-Aziziya in the capital."

Yeah right, the men's reputations is at stake and the woman was a prostitute.

Same crap as usual........

x(

[Green_Lantern]

9. also...if her story is so crazy and untrue why is she being silenced

And kept away from lawyers and human rights groups...

A group of lawyers and human rights activists tried to approach al-Obeidy's sister's house Monday, but were blocked by security forces. The sister's mobile phone has apparently been turned off, a source with the opposition in Tripoli told CNN, and no one has seen her since the incident at the hotel.

Meanwhile the govt. gets to run her name through the mud.

[Beacool]

14. Disgraceful!!!

Nations, including our own, should demand that the Libyan government produce this woman. Who knows what she's going through right now!!!

x(

[Green_Lantern]

15. that's why It was bittersweet to hear she was under house arrest..

Which is terrible but not as scary as Libyan police torture centers.

[Turborama]

16. When you say "house arrest" are you referring to Gaddafi's compound as a "house"?

Not sure if you've read this yet...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4791013">Parents of Libyan woman who claimed rape tell TV she’s held hostage at Gadhafi’s compound

[Green_Lantern]

19. no I didn't know that...I had read she was at her sister's house

But I misread this----http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/03/29/libya.rape.case/index.html?hpt=C1

I thought it was saying she was there.

[Turborama]

20. Apparently her sister has been arrested as well. God only knows why and what they're doing to her.

[Beacool]

22. I saw a video where Libyan doctors talked about finding condoms and Viagra

in the pockets of wounded and dead government forces. Apparently they are using rape as a weapon of war.

It's always the same thing if you are the female of the species. Girls and women get raped no matter the century, the country or the war.

:mad:



:cry:

[Green_Lantern]

23. in another thread someone said "rapists don't use condoms"..

Thus it is fishy.

Dumb statement: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x759201#760232

[Beacool]

24. There are incidents of rapists using condoms.

Furthermore, if rape is being used as a weapon of war, then it is planned. These men may be evil, but they are not stupid. They may be afraid of acquiring an STD.

[kpete]

27. Militia Members Sue Woman Who Accused Them of Rape

Source: New York Times

Militia Members Sue Woman Who Accused Them of Rape
By DAVID D. KIRKPATRICK
Published: March 29, 2011


TRIPOLI, Libya — In the latest turn in the case of Eman al-Obeidy, a Libyan woman apprehended by security forces for trying to tell journalists that she had been raped by members of the Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi’s militia, a government spokesman said Tuesday that the unidentified militia members she accused had filed a civil case against her.

“Oh, yeah, they have filed a case,” the spokesman, Musa Ibrahim said. “The boys who she accused of rape are bringing a case because it is a very grave offense to accuse someone of a sexual crime.”

Journalists have been unable to learn Ms. al-Obeidy’s whereabouts since she was removed by force from the Rixos Hotel here after scuffles between security personnel, hotel staff and foreign journalists she had been trying to approach on Saturday.

Mr. Ibrahim initially described her as drunk and potentially delusional. Then, later on Saturday, he called her sober and sane. And on Sunday he termed her a prostitute and a thief.

Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/29/world/middleeast/30tripoli.html?_r=2&smid=tw-nytimes&seid=auto

[derby378]

28. Whereabouts unknown?

I fear she's buried where no one in their right mind would go looking for her...

[juxtaposed]

29. this is one of those things that set, death of Qaddafi from living.....

the world has seen all the video's of her arrest and the claim she was drunk.--- The news people found she was not drunk nor had issues in her mind shows ,,, She Stated What Happened To Her and What She Stated Was True.. If this woman lives I would be very surprised, but hopeful

[happyslug]

30. Duplicate Subject from this Morning

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4791731

[pinboy3niner]

32. UPDATE: Govt spokesman said today 2 women journos may meet with her "by Saturday"

He said they could meet with Eman al-Obeidi at a facility for rape victims in Tripoli. (No link yet--I watched the press conf. on AJE live feed.)

[Turborama]

34. Yeah, Mussa Ibrahim said she's in a "sanctuary".Remember what they said on state TV about her ystrdy

COOPER: 360 follow now on the woman who stood up in front of Western reporters and tried to get her message out.

Her name is Eman al-Obeidy. If you don't know it by now, you should, telling the world that Gadhafi soldiers gang-raped her. We can't of course independently verify what she is saying. She was hustled away by authorities, some of them apparently undercover posing as hotel workers. She hasn't been seen since.

The government claims she's been released and is with her family. Her actual family, though, who live far in the east who we have tracked down, say that's not true, adding that the regime offered them cash or a house if their persuaded their daughter to recant her rape allegations. They say she refused and today now four days later, there's still no sign of this woman.

However, Libyan television is reporting on her, painting her as a traitor and a prostitute.

I want to show you some of what's being said on air now for Libyans to see. Take a look. This is the anchor, saying: "I said, with all due respect to whores, even a whore may have some sense of patriotism. Even a whore will have a sense of patriotism when it comes to her homeland, Libya. But sister Eman has a political hate agenda," this anchor says. "She's extremely radical." She went on. Again, that was the anchor on state television in Libya calling Eman worse than a whore. Eman remains missing. And we will keep reporting on this until she is found.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1103/30/acd.01.html

[pinboy3niner]

35. His qualifying his stmt that there will be a mtg with "hopefully" doesn't inspire confidence

Here's CNN's story on his remarks today:

Alleged rape victim to meet with journalists, Libyan government says


By the CNN Wire StaffMarch 31, 2011 -- Updated 1713 GMT (0113 HKT)


Tripoli, Libya (CNN) -- A woman who was dragged away by Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi's officials after telling journalists that some of his troops had raped her will finally be seen by journalists in the coming days, a government spokesman said Thursday.

Eman al-Obeidy will "hopefully" be visited by two or three female journalists by Saturday, Mousa Ibrahim said.

He added that he did not know where she was Thursday.

"The only place she will be other than her family house" is a shelter for women who have been raped, kidnapped, or otherwise victimized, he said. "Maybe she is there."

But al-Obeidy's mother, Aisha Ahmad, told CNN on Tuesday that she had not seen her. The family is worried about her.


http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/03/31/libya.rape.case/

[riderinthestorm]

33. Libya is an Islamic state. Women who are raped face an incredible hurdle in reporting it.

They must provide the evidence that they were raped (witnesses) or else they face sanctions of being a prostitute or worse.

This woman's life is in serious danger. She doesn't face great prospects under Libya's legal system which is based on the Quran. While her prospects were never very good after going to the hotel and publicly making her charges, Qaddafi's legal system provides the justification for imprisoning her and worse.

;(