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Viva_La_Revolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-11 08:14 PM
Original message
Wash. joins Ore. with vote-by-mail system
Source: KGW

OLYMPIA, Wash. -- Washington has become the second state in the nation, after Oregon, to move to all elections by mail.

Gov. Chris Gregoire on Tuesday signed Senate Bill 5124 which requires all counties to use the vote-by-mail system.

Back in 2005, Washington counties were allowed to decide whether to switch to all vote-by-mail, with the decision to be made by the County Auditor and the County Commission or Council.

Many counties soon signed up, with some also holding public advisory votes.

Read more: http://www.kgw.com/news/Wash-state-joins-Ore-with-vote-by-mail-system-119292704.html
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neverforget Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-11 08:19 PM
Response to Original message
1. I love vote by mail! I take my time reading the ballot issues and make
more informed decisions of those issues.
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freshwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-11 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. Same thing here. Been doing it for years now. Just have to put on extra postage.
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alp227 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-11 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #1
19. CA has had it as long as i can remember, earliest 2004 i recall
I've been a registered voter since 2009 and always have done it by mail. Why did these Pacific Northwest states do it late?
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nosmokes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-06-11 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #19
24. Oregon was first w/ statewide vote by mail. n/t
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-11 08:19 PM
Response to Original message
2. Sounds good. Till you hear Rachel on the Regressive desire to destroy the Post Office.
You really want your ballot carried by a private carter?
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quakerboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-11 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Better that than a diebold machine
At least they have to physically take action against my ballot before arrival to keep me from voting this way.
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customerserviceguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-11 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #4
15. This is the one thing I don't get about the anti-machine vote people
For some strange reason, they trust the postal service and those who maintain dropboxes more than they trust those scary computer chips. Any sort of system can be rigged, if there's a will and a way.
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quakerboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-11 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Any system can be corrupted
But I strongly believe that there are some systems are inherently easier to corrupt and some are harder to corrupt.

In the mean time, despite what I would consider unnecessary innuendo, I (and I hope most other "anti machine vote people) am not scared of "scary computer chips". But I have a big issue with proprietary programming that has been proven easy to hack, combined with private ownership of the means of voting which happens to be owned by people hostile to democracy, combined with the lack of any way to verify anything after the fact.

The Paper trail makes the difference, in my opinion. Ballots may go missing or be altered. There will always be someone who wants to game the system. But with vote by mail you have to get potentially hundreds of different postal workers, and as many volunteers or election workers manning boxes or collecting them, or counting them, over the course of days or weeks to do something nefarious and illegal to make a significant difference. Without anyone every saying anything, being caught, having an attack of conscience, or slipping up. A box of ballots takes up space, and changing each ballot will take time. Replacing or removing them takes time, as well as space, and leaves you with boxes of evidence to dispose of

With a pure electronic tabulation all you need is one single programmer to write in one little bit of code and you can not just invalidate but flip many thousands or hundreds of thousands of votes. There is no evidence to dispose of, it takes no time or conspiracy.

I personally am pretty ok with the older kachunk voting machines or even the new ones that provide a print out paper trail as well. Personally I favor vote by mail due to convenience. An old lady with a broken hip can still vote with ease, as can a raw 18 year old who happens to have a baseball tournament on election day.

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customerserviceguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-11 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. How do you feel about your banking transactions being handled by computers?
Millions and millions of us trust them every single day, and there are far more baddies out there that would rather use their nefarious skills to trim a few percent off of everyone's bank accounts, rather than a few percent off of an election result.

I'm not against vote by mail, but the time is coming when we will all be able to vote by a perfectly secured transaction on our computers, the way we do with dozens, sometimes hundreds of purchases and payments per year. Securing one or two elections per year is not any more difficult than securing a bank deposit transfer.

Internet voting will be even more convenient than mail voting. I wouldn't even know where to find a stamp in my house, at least not one that I could be fairly certain was for the current postage amount.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-06-11 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #17
21. This comparison is complete bullshit
WHY TOUCH SCREEN VOTING MACHINES ARE NOT LIKE ATMS


ATM software is open, but voting software is proprietary

Banks insist that all code in ATMs be fully disclosed to them and they won't trust their money or their depositors’ money with anything less. Voting software by comparison is considered proprietary. Companies that make both ATMs and voting machines proudly boast of their open source software for ATMs in their advertising. This situation could conceivably be changed by demanding that voting software also be fully disclosed, but there are other reasons why open source code is not by itself sufficient to make voting machines like ATMs. For example, it would be necessary to match the code on all voting machines to verify its identity with the true open source master code immediately prior to each election. But even then, any diskette or other similar device could introduce a virus or other malware that deletes itself. Furthermore, human beings can not observe the vote counting even in open source environments.

In addition, there is the problem that open source code itself is not necessarily "knowable". One can think of the law as being open source "code", free of copyright and at least in theory available to all in free libraries. However, like the extensive areas of code in computer programs that often have unknown functions or utility, even a lawyer who spends his life studying the law doesn't understand how every bit of the "open source" law works, nor can we the people realistically understand even a fraction of exactly how the open source code for voting machines would work. Even with open source code, then, we would be required to accept election results on trust or faith, which is the opposite of checks and balances.

Were the code of the voting machine vendors suddenly opened up or disclosed, it would take a long time to understand it, we may in fact never understand it, and those who do understand will only be a handful of experts with a lot of time on their hands, probably paid by the government or a vendor and not loyal solely to the public.

Individual ATM transactions can be tracked, but individual secret ballots cannot be tracked

Every transaction in an ATM is completely tracked with redundant account numbers traceable to the account holder, and your transaction is photographed or videotaped for security purposes. In contrast, a secret ballot cannot possibly be associated with such an identifying number and still remain secret. The very secrecy of the ballot creates a virtually untraceable system that is wide open to both fraud and the cover-up of material irregularities. It is not feasible to provide a receipt in elections to prove a transaction because of concerns about using it to sell votes, though this concern might be addressed by making verification available only to the voter in secure locations like the elections offices.

To make ATM banking perfectly analogous to the process of voting, you'd have to have every account holder at a bank make a non-traceable (secret ballot) cash deposit on the same day (election day) by dropping this anonymous deposit (ballot) into a large bin (ballot box). Bank officers would then calculate the total amount of money deposited in secret with no public oversight, but not start counting until after the bank (polls) close. The account holders (the voting public) would then come back at the closing of the business day (election night) with the media in tow demanding instantly reliable bank balances and overall account results within minutes or hours of the closing of the bank (polls). Bankers (election officials) would insist along with some in the media that the convenience of speedy results was far more important than accuracy in one's bank account (election results).

The insane rush to count the bank deposits (ballots) within minutes or hours on election night would them be used as a primary argument for making the banking deposits invisible and unverifiable by converting them to electrons, so that they could be processed all the more quickly and conveniently. Hopefully it is obvious that in such elections we would be putting intense pressure on a very fragile and inherently unauditable system. In contrast, public and auditable systems can work only at deliberate, and visible, speed.

ATM errors typically have no consequence for users because they are correctable, but ballot tabulation errors have very serious consequences that are usually not correctable

With banks, you have at least 60 days after receiving your statement, if not much longer, to contest and challenge the transactions involving your account. With voting, there is no possibility at all of correcting your vote after you leave the polling place. In fact, voters are considered legally incompetent to contest their ballots with extrinsic evidence under stringent anti-challenge provisions. Election contest laws are subject to extremely short statutes of limitation such as ten days. At any rate, you couldn't locate your own specific ballot for purposes of challenging its tabulation, and some elections officials have preemptively cited academic research purporting to suggest that significant numbers of voters "don't accurately remember their own votes" after having voted, in order to cast doubt on members of the public who may wish to question the tabulation of their own votes. Thus, nothing is allowed to impeach or contest the rushed count, not even the voters themselves were they somehow able to show their own ballots counted incorrectly.

Broken touch screen voting machines have disenfranchised many, many people who have had to get back to work or school before a functioning one could be made available to them during limited voting hours. A broken ATM just means that you have to go to another bank branch or supermarket, at any hour of the day or night. In the case of voting, touch screen machines are expensive bottlenecks where you may be forced to stay in a long line at only one polling place. You usually cannot go elsewhere to cast your vote, though in some states a provisional ballot may be allowable.

In summary, you vote untraceably (assuming that you aren’t turned away unable to access a functioning machine, or by long lines), you're not allowed to challenge or change even your own vote, you're not trusted to remember it, and then the elections officials refuse to disclose their data (ballots) or their analysis methods (counting software) on the grounds of trade secrecy, only releasing their conclusions (election results).

Such a system has absolutely none of the safeguards built into ATMs, which have quadruple redundancy. If you take out $100, you can count the five crisp $20s, check the receipt, cross-reference it with your bank statement listing individual transactions tagged with unique numbers, and if necessary, request the photo of you making the transaction.

ATMs have extensive real world testing that vote counting systems can never have

Principles of elementary systems analysis dictate that any complex system, whether mechanical or electronic, is highly unlikely to ever be free of bugs. Such systems can, however, eventually be made robust and reliable by banging them against reality hard and often. ATMs are part of a complex system that has had most of the bugs worked out of it by being constantly tested in the real world, billions of times an hour, 24/7, 365 days a year. Even so, they still malfunction occasionally, though if you run into one that isn’t working it’s usually a minor hassle to find another one.

In contrast, voting is something we do a couple of times a year, and letting machines with complex hardware and software do it for us means that elections must inevitably always be a beta test. This is why you rarely hear of ATMs that don’t work because of heat or cold or humidity, but commonly hear of voting machine breakdowns for those reasons and many others. If we only drove our cars for a couple of hours once a year, they'd suck pretty badly too. Beta test mode is absolutely unacceptable for something as important as voting.

Moreover, even if billions were spent on ATMs, there is no conceivable way that we would all be able to use an ATM in the same 14 hour time period, even under completely optimal and bug-free conditions. Forcing voters to use electronic voting machines means forcing them to stand in long lines instead of the five minute service guarantees we are used to in stores. The "promised land" of electronic voting promises only convenience for election officials, inherent invisibility of mistakes (which appeals to both vendors and election officials), and replicates the situation we now have with school systems whereby rich districts get great service and poor districts get poor service. The ultimate effect of electronic voting is therefore structural disenfracnhisement of the poor by the forced bottlenecks of expensive machines.

We can safely entrust others with tracking ATM transactions, but we can only trust ourselves to supervise vote tabulation

The current situation is this. We now have no basis for confidence in election results because the data and the method of its analysis are never disclosed—only conclusions (election results) are disclosed. Voters are considered legally incompetent to change or challenge their votes, or even to recall what those votes were. Voters are widely considered by elections officials to be the cause of machine malfunctions themselves, resulting in delayed responses to fix them. Furthermore, the poll workers are not supposed to observe the voters and therefore can't easily verify whether a given problem is a machine problem or a voter problem. (Would any self-respecting software engineers refuse to include an undo function in their word-processing program, and then blame users for not being smart enough to avoid mistakes 100% of the time? Most “user” error is really system design error—real world testing should result in errors being hard to make and easy to recover from.)

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customerserviceguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #21
25. So
Get the people who are currently safeguarding billions of dollars in transactions, and have them develop foolproof systems for voting. Make it voluntary for people like me who trust network safeguards, and the rest of you can just go find some stamps.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 03:30 AM
Response to Reply #25
31. It is a flat out theoretical impossibility
People who develop ATM software are irrelevant--their products get billions upon billions of real world tests daily, which has resulted in effective debugging of these complex programs over long periods of time. What is it about "Voting is something that is done only a few times a year" is it that you are failing to understand here? If you think that it's fine that every election must inevitabley be a beta test of complex software, well, FUCK THAT!!!!

You may be willing to give up the secret ballot, but most of us aren't. Unique transaction numbers and at least six months to fix problems insure that ATM fuckps are harmless to consumers. Name an election that has ever been conducted under such circumstances.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #31
36. Oh, and as a very wise computer science professor of mine
(back when I was learning Fortran II) once said when asked "How do you do that by computer?" replied "Senseless and wrong question. The right question is 'How would you do it AT ALL?'" If you can write an algorithm for it, you can do it by computer, but it may not make any sense to do it.

Analysing the process of voting and the process of ATM transfers before you start programming leads to the conclusion that the two processes have drastically different requirements, and that on-line and DRE voting are horrors that should never even be considered.
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customerserviceguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-11 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #36
38. There are a lot of things being done today
that were unimaginable in the days of Fortran. It was once thought that 640K of RAM was more than enough to do anything on a computer, a quote to such effect was even attributed to Bill Gates.

While the processes of voting and bank transactions are definitely different, they are equally solveable for use by computer. Let me cast a secured Internet ballot, and the rest of you can go hunting through drawers for stamps, putting your ballots in something inherently less accountable than an authenticated computer database, if it really makes you feel so secure.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-11 03:47 AM
Response to Reply #38
40. There is no such thing as a secured internet ballot
Basic principles of defining processes before writing code have NOT changed at all. It took exactly 5 minutes for a University of Michigan computer security expert to hack the recent DC online voting test.

If you want to trust people like that bitch in Wisconsin to do accurate elections, leave the rest of us out of it. Trusting anyone whose work cannot be reviewed is just plain stupid.
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customerserviceguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #40
42. Isn't it funny that all this Wisconsin judge stuff
happened without Internet voting? It's clear that we need to have the people who banks hire to protect billions of dollars put their considerable talents to making screw-up proof elections, that would allow us to have secured Internet voting, just like my online bill payments are secure and reliable.

It seems that the real problem is that we have 18th Century mechanisms for handling voting, and they just don't work in the modern computer age. We need to have people who understand these machines and the systems that run on them design something secure into them. Just having everybody find stamps is not going to solve the problem.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-11 03:24 AM
Response to Reply #42
43. Every single person who understands these machines will tell you your head is up your ass
There is not a single computer security expert who approves of online voting. Protecting billions of dollars is easy, because tinancial transactions are identified with unique numbers, and there are very wide time frames for fixing fuckups, which happen millions of times a day. Financial transaction fuckups are not a problem because you have months to fix them.

You don't have months to tabulate ballots, and identifying ballots with unique numbers eliminates the secret ballot.

Given the complexity of US elections, the best solution is optical scanning, whether at the polls (preferable, because people can self-correct rejected ballots) or mailed to a central location. This must be checked by extensive hand-counted audits. This will not, of course prevent people like the auditor in WI from trying to steal elections. The defense against that is monitoring the process at every step by every interested party, resulting in checks and balances.
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Trajan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #17
29. Bullshit argument ... but expected ...
There are fiduciary laws in place that are FAR more transparent than voting regulations ...
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customerserviceguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-11 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #29
39. So
What would be wrong with making the voting regulations as transparent as the fiduciary laws that you cite?

I guarantee, our great-grandchildren are all going to find this discussion so incredibly quaint someday.
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-11 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. Here ya go: Your electronic vote in the 2010 election has just been bought
Edited on Tue Apr-05-11 10:53 PM by Zorra
Unless U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder intervenes, your electronic vote in 2010 will probably be owned by the Republican-connected ES&S Corporation. With 80% ownership of America's electronic voting machines, ES&S could have the power to shape America's future with a few proprietary keystrokes.

ES&S has just purchased the voting machine division of the Ohio-based Diebold, whose role in fixing the 2004 presidential election for George W. Bush is infamous.

Critics of the merger hope Holder will rescind the purchase on anti-trust grounds.

But only a transparent system totally based on hand-counted paper ballots, with universal automatic voter registration, can get us even remotely close to a reliable vote count in the future.
(more)
http://www.atlanticfreepress.com/news/1/11708-your-electronic-vote-in-the-2010-election-has-just-been-bought-.html

These are just a few of the many reasons why electronic voting is absolutely unacceptable.

DU had a huge library of info on electronic voting.

If you can still find it with DU search, it is a wealth of information about why electronic voting is a deadly threat to any democracy.
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customerserviceguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #20
26. Yes, there are a lot of people here who distrust electronic voting
They're ready to scream it from the rooftops whenever an election doesn't go their way. They seem to be conspicuously silent when an election does produce the expected result.

I'm just saying that mail voting is way easier to fool with than Internet voting. I just don't understand why the people who seem so very concerned with the integrity of elections when electronic counting systems are used, seem to have zero trouble when the mail box becomes the ballot box.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 03:37 AM
Response to Reply #26
32. Nope, not silent at all
Similar work was published in 2008

http://electiondefensealliance.org/landslide_denied

The Edison-Mitofsky media Exit Poll, posted Election Night on CNN.com, had a sample base of more than 10,000 voters, and showed Democratic House candidates winning over Republicans by an 11.5 percent margin.

The reported vote count showed Democrats winning by a 7.6 margin, 3.9 percent less than the Exit Poll and far outside the poll’s +/-1% margin of error. This discrepancy entailed at least 3,000,000 votes.

The Exit Poll was then adjusted, by a process known as “forcing,” to match reported election vote totals. The final result, posted at 1:00 p.m. November 8, showed Democrats winning by a 7.6 percent margin, exactly mirroring the reported vote totals.
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customerserviceguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-11 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #32
37. Ah, yes, the old "exit poll doesn't match the vote total" argument
If exit polling were a 100% exact science, we wouldn't need to hold general elections, we'd only have to select random citizens to decide who won an election. Exit polling is a series of guesses, which don't always conform to actual reality.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 03:37 AM
Response to Reply #26
33. Nope, not silent at all
Similar work was published in 2008

http://electiondefensealliance.org/landslide_denied

The Edison-Mitofsky media Exit Poll, posted Election Night on CNN.com, had a sample base of more than 10,000 voters, and showed Democratic House candidates winning over Republicans by an 11.5 percent margin.

The reported vote count showed Democrats winning by a 7.6 margin, 3.9 percent less than the Exit Poll and far outside the poll’s +/-1% margin of error. This discrepancy entailed at least 3,000,000 votes.

The Exit Poll was then adjusted, by a process known as “forcing,” to match reported election vote totals. The final result, posted at 1:00 p.m. November 8, showed Democrats winning by a 7.6 percent margin, exactly mirroring the reported vote totals.
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Twillig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-11 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. It doesn't HAVE to be mailed.
We--Oregonians, that is--can drop it off--anytime before the deadline--at the courthouse or other designated dropboxes.

C'mon.
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-11 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #2
10. I drop ours off at the County Elections Office personally
After making copies. Because that is my idea of a good time.
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Bandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-06-11 08:15 AM
Response to Reply #2
23. At least it is a paper ballot that can be counted and recounted.
IMO anyone that doesn't want vote by mail is part of the problem..
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Trajan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #2
30. The ballots can be mailed, but there are dedicated ballot boxes at key locations
I haven't had MSNBC for over 5 years now ..... I do not listen to Rachel, or any of the other hosts at MSNBC ...

Oh .... and I don't watch CNN, CNBC or FAUX news ... at all ... I have the world at my fingertips, right here ...
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-11 08:21 PM
Response to Original message
3. I'm thinking of volunteering to drive people to the post office - although they
could just put their ballots in the mailbox. This will make it much easier for a lot of people. I think only two counties weren't vote by mail only, so pretty much the entire state is already used to it. It's great!
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Liberal Veteran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-11 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. I think it was King and Pierce, but I could be wrong.
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-11 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. I'm in King and I think during the mid-terms we didn't have a choice -- had to
do it by mail. I wasn't here for the 2008 election, but I don't THINK it was in effect then. For some reason I seem to recall my sister in law got into a fender bender when she went to vote.
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pa28 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-11 08:35 PM
Response to Original message
6. Good for them. I moved to Oregon recently and love vote by mail.
It makes for convenient, verifiable voting while derailing Republican efforts at caging, intimidation and purging.

If Ohio and Florida had vote-by-mail the world might look really different today.
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Liberal Veteran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-11 08:38 PM
Response to Original message
7. Yay us! Although I live in one of the counties that been voting by mail for quite a while.
It's super easy and convenient. No lines and allows me to do it on my timetable.
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Raster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-11 08:48 PM
Response to Original message
11. I live in King County and have been voting by mail -- via request absentee -- for years.
I love it! It's easy and gives me a chance to really review the candidates and issues.

And the biggest bonus of all: it doesn't involve rethuglican rigged voting machines.
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Andy823 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-11 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. I live in Okanogan county
We went all mail ballots some years back and I simply love it! The county is pretty red, but in 2008 even though McCain won the county, it was closer than other elections. We have been getting a lot of retired folks from the West side coming over so if the trend keeps up we may turn at least purple one of these days! :shrug:
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-11 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Tonasket or Oroville by any chance?
I lived in the mountains near there for a long time.

We may even be old friends.
:hi:
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customerserviceguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-11 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #11
18. And you have 100% assurance
that the ballot you mail in gets counted, or even opened? What about the machine that the county auditor's staff feeds it into to be read? How is that machine any different from the one you think the Repigs have fiddled with in your precinct?
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-06-11 01:30 AM
Response to Original message
22. Counted by computer, anyway -- but I like the idea of actually making them have to hide
a piece of paper to steal my vote -- here in NJ, that is!!

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hayu_lol Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #22
27. Mail only voting has been pretty much problem free here in Oregon...
further it saves money by not having to set up polling places.

Two kinds of people hate mail only voting:

Rabid Repugnants who are unable to steal elections

Press and Poll people who have no exit info

The big plus is that our active voter numbers are way up. People like the idea of sitting around the kitchen table with the voter's pamphlet and taking the time to really studying the candidates and initiatives. You have a couple of weeks to do this, mark your ballots, and either mail the ballot in or drop it off personally at the county buildings or other special drop boxes.

Virtually trouble free. We do not have Florida/Ohio voting problems.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. I like it, too -- but they are still counted by computer -- at least here in NJ --
Edited on Thu Apr-07-11 01:03 AM by defendandprotect
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eowyn_of_rohan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #28
34. I was just reading about this...
and getting slammed for suggesting there could be fraud in the tabulation...

http://www.bradblog.com/?p=6003
For the voters, they believe such systems offer a "paper trail" not available to voters using touch-screen systems at the polling place. Many are unaware that their mailed-in ballots will be scanned by the same error-prone, easily manipulated optical-scan machines which handle paper ballots for precinct-based voting. But even worse, ballots mailed in, if they arrive safely, and are counted at all, are usually counted "in the dark," versus ballots scanned either at the polls on Election Day, or at county headquarters after the close of polls when citizens are often there to watch.

It is also much harder to track such ballots. Unlike ballots cast at the polls, where sign-in rosters can be compared to the number of ballots counted, it's far more difficult to match up such numbers after ballots are dropped into the black hole that is the U.S. Postal System

Also this
http://www.ejfi.org/Voting/Voting-77.htm
Chapter 5 — Lies, Damn Lies, And Mail In Elections
"Why Mail Ballots Are a Bad Idea" by Charles E. Corry, Ph.D

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. Thanks -- interesting -- saved -- and ...
Edited on Thu Apr-07-11 12:12 PM by defendandprotect
great point about the mail in being counted "in the dark" -- and

didn't know that they don't keep a record of write in ballots which are

sent out vs those that are returned -- but then that would also be being

done in the dark.

Didn't get to your second link yet --

but you might be interested in this --

http://www.constitution.org/vote/votescam__.htm

The voting computers began to come in during the late 1960's -- and two

journalists in Florida began to investigate the odd an unverifiable results.

They contracted to write a book -- "Votescam -- The Stealing of America" which

made it to the bookstores only to immediately be taken off the shelves.

A copy is something like $3 -- but you can read it on line.

Even at that time, in Florida, there was a lot of intimidation to keep them from

seeing records. They also picked up a lot of info along the way on how elections

were stolen -- shaving down the counting wheels being one popular way at the time.


They also point to questions about the LARGE computers used by MSM which gave them

new powers to PREDICT and CALL elections -- ELECTORAL COLLEGES VOTES -- even to

CALL the election for the presidential candidate. What we saw in 2000 was merely

a reversal of those new powers.

Until these large computers -- MSM could only report official vote tallies.


Thanks, again -- !! :)


PS on your second link -- a lot to read so it will be another time.

But here in NJ we're getting the greatest resistance from the right wing -- which

is arguing that your address isn't a reliable way to validate your right to vote!

These are also the people who have invalidated your personal signature as your ID!

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hayu_lol Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-11 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #35
41. Some additional points about vote by mail(OR)...
The ballots are closely monitored. The public is invited to watch the county ballot count taking place. Many of us do go to our county building to watch. The same applies at the state level. There is a guarded paper trail and the ballots are permanently stored.

Oregon Repugnants do not like vote by mail. We have one poster on this thread that does not like vote by mail. Hmmmmmm.

As I said before, the media doesn't like vote by mail either...they can't make early predictions available.

Oregon vote by mail has been safe and secure since we started. Voter turnout is showing higher numbers even for the state only elections...much higher.

Washington will find that they like it. We do.
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