Rebels Flee Key Libyan Town

[pinto]

Source: NY Times

Rebels Flee Key Libyan Town

By Rod Nordland
Published: April 17, 2011

AJDABIYA, Libya — Rebel fighters fled this city Sunday after a rocket and artillery attack by government forces that were reportedly on the western outskirts.

Scores of rebel pickup trucks and other vehicles could be seen leaving the eastern approaches of Ajdabiya, headed toward the rebel capital of Benghazi, about 85 miles north. Explosions could be heard in the city.

Their flight seemed to bring to an end a claimed rebel push that had taken them to the outskirts of the oil refinery town of Brega, about another 40 miles further west of Ajdabiya.

Many of the fighters in the vehicles blamed Nato for failing to give them enough support, and also said they had insufficient heavy weapons to match the weaponry of forces loyal to Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi.




Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/18/world/africa/18libya.html

[The Wielding Truth]

1. So who are the Koch bro's equivalent suppling the arms money?

[Proletariatprincess]

2. Good

I'm convinced now that the so called rebels are CIA inventions. The USA/NATO are interferring with the internal afairs of sovereign nation once again for their own selfish interests. Humanitarianism had nothing at all to do with anything. USA and it's puppet states in NATO always seem to be on the wrong side of any conflict. History will not be kind.

[Warren Stupidity]

3. well quadaffi is a thug

but I agree that the intervention is self-serving. In terms of preventing a blood-bath, it is a failure, the blood-bath is in progress.

[psychopomp]

20. He united Libya and gave it the highest standard of living in Africa, among other things

He also did a lot to promote African unity and served as a foil against the ambitions of the IMF and World Bank.

Does he have blood on his hands? Certainly, but of course every living US president does, too.

[joshcryer]

22. Let me know the last time a US president had a popular uprising against him.

[Bosonic]

23. 1861?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War

[Alamuti Lotus]

25. ugh

scrubbed; hate losing interest in what promises to be a fine scrap, but it happens more and more lately..

[psychopomp]

26. We are not a nation of tribes

And Libya is.

[Odin2005]

4. WTF, you are siding with Gaddafi? REALLY?

I don't care what the US's motives are, anything is better for Libya than that thug.

[EFerrari]

6. It's too early to say anything is better than "that thug".

Especially since our government excels at finding things that are worse.

[Odin2005]

15. At least in a neo-liberal pseduo-democracy one can criticize the government without being jailed.

:shrug:

[Alamuti Lotus]

16. and that criticism will have the net-effect of what, precisely?

Nothing, of course. Aim the bar a little higher if you bother to go that far with the basic idea.

[Odin2005]

17. Oh, you.

:eyes:

[Alamuti Lotus]

24. Yeah, that was me. Wait, what now?

The remainder of the response seems to be missing there..

[EFerrari]

18. Well, remember the FBI raids on those peace activists?

Those folks aren't in jail but all their computers are. :shrug:

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Odin2005]

8. LOL, you must support Mugabe, too.

:rofl: :eyes:

[daleo]

9. What about regime change in Iraq?

I really have a hard time understanding how the arguments in favor of overthrowing Gaddaffi differ significantly from the arguments we heard for overthrowing Saddam from Bush.

Were you in favor of that war? If not, why not?

Speaking of Mugabe, should the west declare a no-fly zone in Zimbabwe? If not, why not?

[Odin2005]

14. In Iraq, excluding Kurdistan, there wasn't a rebellion there in 2002.

Bush's BS about us being greeted with flowers and chocolate notwithstanding.

[daleo]

40. Rebellions can be in the eye of the beholder

As can separatist movements and civil wars. The focus of the media and elite opinion can create the conditions to support any one of these, for genuine reasons or ulterior motives. I don't know the truth about Libya, but I am disinclined to get involved in another war, either way.

[psychopomp]

11. Did you know that Libya had the highest standard of living in Africa?

That thug did a lot for the people of Libya.

[BOG PERSON]

12. n/t

[Odin2005]

13. Is that GDP? If it is a lot of that is oil money and doesn't filter down.

Or do you think the average Saudi is well-off too?

[psychopomp]

19. Link to Human Development Index

"The statistic is composed from data on life expectancy, education and per-capita GNI (as an indicator of standard of living or income) collected at the national level using the formula given in the Methodology section below. There are also HDI for states, cities, villages, etc. by local organizations or companies."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index

[joshcryer]

21. Ever wonder why Chad and Niger have a really shitty HDI?

Ends don't fucking justify the means.

[psychopomp]

28. Can you respond more clearly?

I'm having trouble guessing the meaning behind your non-sequitor and cursing.

[joshcryer]

29. Gaddafi had reportedly funded violence in those two countries.

Chad in particular he invaded. His security forces are composed mostly of foreign Black Africans from those countries (what the rebels call "mercenaries" are Black africans who are hired to run Gaddafi's security, with the prospect of citizenship dangled over their head). They're low paid labor, to boot (along with Egypt and Tunisia).

Gaddafi's "standard of living" for the Libyan citizen comes at the back of black Africans. He is no friend to Africa, and his system was unsustainable. It was only a matter of time before Gaddafi had an uprising.

[psychopomp]

31. You still aren't making sense.

How can the country's standard of living come "at the back of black Africans"? Libya's government is not responsible for anything but it's own citizens.

Admit it, you had no idea that Libya had the highest standard of living on the continent. I know about other Africans in Libya, there are quite a few working as laborers and so on. I did not know that they "are hired to run Gaddafi's security" and would appreciate a citation. Got a link for that?

[Alamuti Lotus]

32. be a bit more forgiving, certain people became supreme experts on this subject only very recently

:eyes:

[psychopomp]

34. The learning curve is high for all of us outside Libya

I've just been reading from a broad spectrum of sources, many of which are linked to here:
http://www.reddit.com/search?q=libya

[joshcryer]

42. Actually, I did know that, I think it is irrelevant.

Human Development Index does not tell you anything about freedoms enjoyed by people. I know that "moral relativism" is considered a good thing by a lot of progressives, but I place freedom above all else.

However, it should go to show you that Libya, a highly educated country, is fighting against Gaddafi, which should tell you the makeup of the revolutionaries, and make you have pause.

[psychopomp]

35. There's irony in this statement:

"Gaddafi's "standard of living" for the Libyan citizen comes at the back of black Africans. He is no friend to Africa, and his system was unsustainable. It was only a matter of time before Gaddafi had an uprising."

The wealth of America has been built on the backs of black Africans, then brown Latin Americans and the American standard of living has been propped up on the backs of underpaid, freedom-deprived Chinese laborers. Then we dump our toxic waste in Africa to top it all off.

[joshcryer]

41. Of course, and I am ashamed of America for that.

Any country with a high HDI is exploiting other people.

[Odin2005]

30. I stand corrected

*smacks self in head*

[psychopomp]

33. Considering how little of the very interesting backstory to this intervention is getting any media

it is easy to understand how one could have a completely different perspective on the events in Libya. It certainly isn't black and white, by that I mean that there are no totally good guys and no totally bad guys. However, the motives of those allied against the Libyan government need to be explicated in clearer detail.

[joshcryer]

43. You should not place much weight on the HDI alone.

HDI is only one of many indicators for human development.

[Fool Count]

27. Yeah, sure, keep on removing my messages for no reason.

That's one way to win an argument. Real mature.

[Uncle Joe]

37. Gaddafi is a dictator and has been for forty years, if the people of Tunisia, Egypt, Lebanon, Yemen,

Syria, Bahrain etc. yearn for freedom to the point of risking and losing their lives, why do you believe the people of Libya wouldn't or couldn't?

The U.S. and Nato may be helping the rebels in Libya because it sits between Tunisia and Egypt, has oil and Gaddafi's past transgressions ie: the blowing up of an airliner but that doesn't take away from the rebels desire to be rid of a ruthless, megalomaniac dictator.

[BOG PERSON]

5. there's a steep learning curve for insurgent warfare

and learning takes time that NATO doesn't have. another problem is it looks like the rebels are trying to hold territory prematurely. again, because NATO is in a rush.

[joshcryer]

10. Libyan rebels fear fresh attack on Ajdabiyah

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2011/04/17/uk-libya-idUKLDE71Q0MP20110417">Libyan rebels fear fresh attack on Ajdabiyah
(Reuters) - Libyan rebels scrambled to defend their eastern frontline outpost of Ajdabiyah on Sunday after fighting on the coastal highway towards the oil port of Brega occupied by Muammar Gaddafi's troops.

...

"There are still some guys out there at the western gate but the situation isn't very good," said Wassim el-Agouri, a 25-year-old rebel volunteer waiting at Ajdabiyah's eastern gate.

...

Ajdabiyah's streets were almost deserted by mid-afternoon and rebels barricaded the roads with concrete blocks, tree branches and anything they could find for fear of an attack.

...

"We are ready for a street war. We are prepared. We have got dynamite and we've got grenades," said rebel fighter Emtar el-Farjany, who was holding a stick of dynamite.

I had to clip out a part about them asking for weapons, it was not to mislead, they're certainly disparate, but I think the NYT is getting it wrong, they're staying to fight. I also clipped out a bit about Brega, they really need to learn to stop spreading themselves thin like they do. Clipping for copyright reasons.

[Baclava]

36. UN Chief Calls For Immediate Ceasefire In Libya

April 18, 2011
United Nations Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon has called for an immediate ceasefire in Libya as forces loyal to Muammar Qaddafi continue shelling rebel-held Misrata, the country's third-largest town.

Speaking in Budapest on April 18, Ban called for an "immediate, effective ceasefire" and said it was "absolutely necessary that Libyan authorities stop fighting and killing people."

Ban also called for a political solution to the conflict, adding that the UN would open a humanitarian mission in Tripoli.

http://www.rferl.org/content/un_chief_calls_for_immediate_ceasefire_in_libya_as_government_shells_misrata/9497710.html

------------------

Russia says NATO violates Libya resolution

MOSCOW, April 18 (UPI) -- NATO's intervention in Libya violates the U.N. Security Council resolution, Russia's envoy to the alliance said Monday.

"Getting more and more entangled in the Libyan crisis, certain Western states have started speculating about the possibility of a ground operation, which would probably be introduced as an operation to secure humanitarian convoys," Rogozin said.

France is urging European Union countries to send a humanitarian mission to Libya, but Foreign Minister Alain Juppe denies it would have a military role.

Read more: http://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News/2011/04/18/Russia-says-NATO-violates-Libya-resolution/UPI-58301303136555/#ixzz1JtG5uln7

--------------

Humanitarian convoys protected by NATO ground troops - I can see that happening.

More mission creep.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

38. You cease fire first, then I'll cease fire

Is the UN asking for a ceasefire from all sides? Including NATO? Or only from Qaddafi's troops?

Both sides will probably want the other side to cease first.

And then a ceasefire MIGHT be a step towards peace, but will more likely be a calm period during which both sides attempt to re-arm, reinforce, and re-position their troops and equipment.

[Baclava]

39. Well, the 'rebels' rejected any notion of a ceasefire last week - I don't expect that to change

Libyan rebels reject cease-fire plan
April 11, 2011

The opposition council in Benghazi says any diplomatic solution must require Kadafi and his family to relinquish power.

Libyan rebels delivered an emphatic "no" to an African Union proposal for an end to fighting in their country, insisting that Moammar Kadafi must step down from power as part of any diplomatic solution.

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/apr/11/world/la-fg-libya-fighting-20110412

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It might serve them better to think about a break from war - at least to give our CIA 6 months to better arm and train them.