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Viva_La_Revolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-18-11 11:32 AM
Original message
France threatens to return Tunisian migrants
Source: Al Jazeera

Tunisian migrants arriving in France from Italy will be sent back across the border if they cannot prove adequate financial resources, the French interior minister has said.

Claude Gueant said migrants could be returned to Italy under the rules of the Shengen Accords, which allows residents of EU countries to travel within the region without passports.

His comments are the latest in a row between Italy and France over people from the north African nation seeking refuge in Europe.

On Sunday France temporarily shut its border to trains from Italy carrying a group of about 60 mainly Tunisian migrants, leading to accusations from Rome that Paris was violating European principles.


Read more: http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2011/04/2011418142417356815.html
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WatsonT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-18-11 11:52 AM
Response to Original message
1. Can individual EU states not set their own immigation policies?
Requiring that immigrants show some ability to sustain themselves is pretty common around the world.
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christx30 Donating Member (774 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-18-11 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. That's why
it's not a good idea to form alliances like that. You lose your sovereignty. There are people that want to form that kind of alliance between the United States, Canada, and Mexico.
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pampango Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 05:22 AM
Response to Reply #2
9. Europeans have definitely traded a degree of national sovereignty for peace and prosperity.
The "Eurosceptic" parties (that want to weaken or eliminate the EU) are all on the right. Each country seems to have at least one right wing party that wants to reinstate border controls between European countries and tariffs back into trade between European countries.

In contrast, liberal parties in Europe generally support the continued integration of the continent and the expansion of the EU into new countries as they qualify. Most Europeans, except for the "tea party demographic" of older, more conservative voters, support the freedom of people to travel freely throughout Europe as well as to live and work wherever they want.

The history of highly "sovereign" countries in Europe does not compare favorably with the peace, prosperity and progressive governance of the past several decades. History has taught Europeans that problems in one country (Germany, Austria, Spain, etc.) have a tendency to spread to the rest of the continent in time.

The left, if not the right, seems to have learned that opening borders to their neighbors makes "their" problems into "our" problems. European have learned that "their" problems have historically become "our" problems, the left has learned that helping "them" deal with "their" problems sooner rather than later leads to more peace and prosperity for everyone.

That does seem like an odd strategy to many Americans. When we look at a problem that "they" are having, our inclination is to think of what kind of wall or law will best isolate us from that problem. Historically we haven't suffered to the same extent that Europe has from the destruction that war between "sovereign" nations brings. It makes sense that we look at "sovereignty" as something that we hope will protect us from the problems that "they" have in the rest of the world.

Europeans, given their history, have seen that "sovereignty" can also be a source of war and destruction. It makes sense from their point of view to evolve into an organization of interdependent countries with open travel and trade (kind of like our states) that are less likely to go to war with each other.

"There are people that want to form that kind of alliance between the United States, Canada, and Mexico." - Whoever those folks are they sure don't come from the ranks of the far right.

The belief that a North American Union was being planned and implemented in secret became widespread, so much so that the NAU was a topic of debate during the 2008 American presidential campaigns and the subject of various U.S. Congressional resolutions<21><22> designed to thwart its implementation. Prominent critics such as CNN’s Lou Dobbs<23> and Republican presidential candidate Ron Paul<24> denounced the concept, joined by a nationalist group in Canada,<25> Internet blogs, and widely viewed videos and films such as "Zeitgeist". Corsi’s 2007 book "The Late Great USA: The Coming Merger with Mexico and Canada" also helped bring the NAU discussion into the mainstream. Others who dismiss these beliefs maintain they are the latest example of a long line of erroneous conspiracy theories which suggest that the United States’ sovereignty is being eroded by a secret cabal of foreign and domestic players.<5><9>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Union#cite_note-urban_legend-4

The society opposed aspects of the civil rights movement in the 1960s because of its concerns that the movement had communists in important positions - for instance, in the latter half of 1965, the JBS produced a flyer titled “What’s Wrong With Civil Rights?”, to also be used as a newspaper advertisement.<10><11> As published, one of the answers provided by the JBS was: “For the civil rights movement in the United States, with all of its growing agitation and riots and bitterness, and insidious steps towards the appearance of a civil war, has not been infiltrated by the Communists, as you now frequently hear. It has been deliberately and almost wholly created by the Communists patiently building up to this present stage for more than forty years.”<12> The society opposed the Civil Rights Act of 1964, saying it was in violation of the Tenth Amendment to the United States Constitution and overstepped the rights of individual states to enact laws regarding civil rights. The society is against "one world government", and has an immigration reduction view on immigration reform. It opposes the United Nations, the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA), the Central America Free Trade Agreement (CAFTA), the Free Trade Area of the Americas (FTAA), and other free trade agreements. The society argues that there is a devaluing of the U.S. Constitution in favor of political and economic globalization, and that this trend is not an accident. It cites the existence of the Security and Prosperity Partnership as evidence of a push towards a North American Union.<13> Stuart A. Wright has said, their political racism however was no different from both Republicans and Democratic politicians of the time.<14>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Birch_Society
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WatsonT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 08:45 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. This doesn't follow:
"The history of highly "sovereign" countries in Europe does not compare favorably with the peace, prosperity and progressive governance of the past several decades."

You can't give the EU credit for that.

Europe had sworn off war (at least within the continent) and was dedicated to peaceful interactions following wwII. It was too destructive and expensive and free trade between nations was seen as preferable to outright annexation.

The EU didn't create that situation, it was possible because they had long since sworn off wars amongst themselves.

It's not as if the dissolution of the EU would immediately spark wwIII. They are hardly holding back nationalist forces and maintaining garrisons to prevent such a measure.

If anything they seem to be inflaming nationalist movements.
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cppuddy Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-18-11 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Italy is pissed.
Italy has asked for help from the EU do deal with the all the people coming out of North Africa. There are so many people that Italy cant house all of them. EU will not extent any help to Italy. And Italy, under EU rules cant sent them back. Most of the people that are coming want to go to France, England, and Germany because they have family there. The Northern League, a large partner in Berlisconi government wants EU to address the problem or they will make move to leave the EU. That combined with the right will in Finland, could spell doom for EU.
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WatsonT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-18-11 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Maybe the EU is untenable
it doesn't seem like anyone is willing to budge and they prefer to not work together.
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closeupready Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-18-11 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. I always felt that the dissolution of the EU is only a matter of time.
Considering history, it's a safe bet, IMO.
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Sirveri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 04:31 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. EU is basically a confederacy, which historically hasn't worked.
You need a strong central government to unite the disparate interests. Considering these states have all done just fine without such a framework I don't see why they bothered to form such a confederacy. Wouldn't treaties accomplish the same goal?
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WatsonT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 08:09 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. They could have a civil war to strengthen the union
of course that could go either way.
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JustAnotherGen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #3
13. Welcome to D.U.
And yep - you pretty much nailed it. My fiance is from Italy (US Green Card holder) and he votes their elections from abroad . . . enough is enough tends to be the attitude. They (Italy) seems to be at capacity right now. Ironically - the farmers in the South could use the help/work force (the Southerners' children - much like my fiance have been leaving for other countries for two decades now) . . . but then people get po'd about the 'invaders' - and you get what happened there in January 2010.
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Baclava Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-18-11 03:53 PM
Response to Original message
5. Is this because of Libya? 'No-fly' zones have their consequences.
suck it up France - - war is heck
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dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 08:12 AM
Response to Reply #5
11. If it is because of Libya
and they were migrant workers then there is no reason not to just deliver them back to Tunisia.
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dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-18-11 04:22 PM
Response to Original message
6. They are doing so
Edited on Mon Apr-18-11 04:25 PM by dipsydoodle
partly because Italy pulled a stroke by giving them temporary residency allowing them to move on.

"under EU rules can't sent them back" ? And which EU rules might they be ? These are mainly Tunisians who as far as I'm aware are not likely to be tortured when they return there.
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