Venezuela's Chavez takes Syrian leader's side (Again)

[Turborama]

Source: AFP

CARACAS, Apr 26, 2011 (AFP) -

=snip=

Chavez, a close Assad ally in Latin America, criticized the "imperial madness" of the international community which, according to him, seeks to attack Syria under the pretext of defending its people.

"They're starting to say: 'Let's see if we sanction the government, we're going to freeze their assets, we'll blockade them, throw bombs on them, in order to defend the people.'

"Wow, what cynicism. But that's the empire, it's imperial madness," he said.

When Chavez talks about "the empire," he is usually referring to the United States.

Read more: http://www.zawya.com/story.cfm/sidANA20110426T041925ZIVG88

---

Chavez of Venezuela expresses support for Syria's Assad: http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/138095/20110426/assad-syria-chavez-venezuela-libya.htm



NB Sanctions and asset freezing hadn't been discussed until after the massacres that occurred this weekend: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13188920

Therefore, this is a different statement to the one he made in March. Check here for the quotes he made then about Assad being a "humanist": http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110327/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/lt_venezuela_syria

[Hannah Bell]

1. good.

[Turborama]

4. You support Assad, as well? n/t

[Warren Stupidity]

2. So Chavez is opposed to attacking Syria?

Obviously he is a DICTATO!

[Turborama]

3. Please cite any evidence of anyone "starting to say ... throw bombs" on Syria

Thanks in adnace.

[johnroshan]

5. Which one is it?

Why doesn't he condemn the government killings? Maybe he wants allies just in case Latin America goes down the same path. He got a taste when he tried increasing government control over Universities.

Or maybe he is just being paranoid. I can't blame him after all these years of aggressive wars fought over flimsy evidence and outright lies.

[EFerrari]

7. It's not paranoia if they're really out to get you. n/t

[Turborama]

8. Why doesn't he condemn the government killings? Good question.

I'd like to ask his supporters the same thing.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

19. So True. If you were Stalin you would have done

the same thing. What else could he do?

"Estimates of how many people died in Stalin's engineered famine of 1933 vary. But they are staggering in their scale -- between seven and 11 million people."

[Arctic Dave]

15. I have a question for you, what would the US do if a mob of people

who want to overthrow the government? Most likely the same exact thing. Look what the US does to everyday activst and protesters. They are illegally spied on, beaten, tased, gassed and illegally jailed. But I'm sure you are aware of this.

Maybe we should be throwing so many stones around our glass house.

[Turborama]

17. You haven't been following what's been happening in Syria. Here's why that analogy doesn't work...

When this began the Syrians were peacefully protesting for reform, not for the overthrow of Assad.

They were fired upon and murdered for doing so.

During the funerals which took place the next day (as per Muslim tradition) mourners were fired upon and mudered.

And so the constant cycle of peaceful protesters and their mourners being murdered by the Syrian regime began.

During all this, multiple house raids began and hundreds of peaceful pro-reform demonstrators 'dissapeard'.

Eventually, after weeks of this viscous cycle, the peaceful protesters/mourners got fed up with being murdered and started calling for the overthrow of their brutal dictator.

After breaking his promise to lift emergency rule, which had been in place for almost 50 years, and murdering around 100 protesters and mourners over this past weekend alone, Assad is escalating the attacks and is now shelling Syrian towns with artillery and has unleashed snipers.


And even if your analogy did work, which it doesn't because - unlike Syrians - Americans are heavily armed, it still doesn't give Assad or any other ruler of a country a free pass to murder their own citizens.

Instead stretching like a contortionist to accuse Assad's critics of hypocrisy, why don't you just simply condemn the mass murders he's been carrying out?

[Arctic Dave]

27. I'm not talking in analogies, I'm talking in realities.

Governments do not just sit idlly while any portion of the population wants to undermine it. Syria sees what is going on and it is not going to have what is happening in other parts of the region start in it's borders.

If you don't think the US would do the same you are not really serious. If US citizens became fed up with our government and wanted the Chinese to help us overthrow it you would see a very harsh response. That is a reality.

Once again look how the US treats garden variety protest, with harsh treatment. That is just the way it is.

[Turborama]

28. Assad sees peaceful protesters and shoots them. Dead. You think President Obama would do that?

Really?

What's happening in Syria is between the citizens of Syria and their brutal dictator. I don't know where you're getting the idea from that they are wanting outside help to overthrow him. That is not a reality.

[totodeinhere]

31. As I just said in my reply, I refuse to believe that President Obama would do that.

This is a problem that I have with DU. Too often we get totally over the top comments like the one I responded to. We are not going to have the military called out to start mowing down peaceful protesters in this country.

And yes I know about the tragedy that happened at Kent State. What happened was an unconscionable tragedy, but it was not a case of troops following orders from the president to shoot peaceful protesters such as is happening in Syria. It was under-trained national guard troops getting carried away. When Nixon found out what had happened he was furious about it.

[Turborama]

33. I think if we did a poll about that here the results would in the high 90s.

I reckon only a nutty 3 or 4% would actually think President Obama would order troops to shoot to kill peaceful American protesters.

I could be wrong, and I hope I am, and the total may even be a solid 100%.

[Arctic Dave]

34. Obama signs orders now to kill people. Do you think predators drop chocolates?

If the US thought for a second that we were going to overthrow it, either peacefully or by force, do you think they would allow it without a drop of blood being spilled?

Question two: Do you think we have no hand in what is happening in the region?

Question three: Do you think if Syrians asked to bomb Assad would we?

[Turborama]

35. No, apples and oranges. Are you basically saying what Assad is doing is understandable and OK ?

Because if push came to shove any other country would do the same thing? And it's fine shooting your own citizens for the sake of keeping in power. Is that what you're saying?

Answer two: I don't think we've got a hand in what's going on in Syria. Iran probably has a hand in, though.

Answer three: I don't think the US would act unilaterally but if another massacre like Hama (another pre R2P massacre) was about to happen I would hope a few rockets could be used to stop it in it's tracks.

Hama massacre

Location: Hama, Syria
Date: February 2, 1982
Target: Sunni community of Hama, Muslim Brotherhood
Attack type: Scorched earth
Death(s): 17,000 to 40,000 Syrian citizens
Perpetrator(s): Hafez al-Assad, Rifaat al-Assad, Assad family

The Hama massacre (Arabic: مجزرة حماة‎ ) occurred in February 1982, when the Syrian army, under the orders of the president of Syria Hafez al-Assad, conducted a scorched earth policy against the town of Hama in order to quell a revolt by the Sunni Muslim community against the regime of al-Assad. The Hama massacre, personally conducted by president Assad's younger brother, Rifaat al-Assad, effectively ended the campaign begun in 1976 by Sunni Islamic groups, including the Muslim Brotherhood, against Assad's regime, whose leaders were disproportionately from president Assad's own Alawite sect.

Estimates vary on the number of deaths, with diplomatic reports from western countries saying that 1000 were killed. Other estimates claim that that at least 10,000 Syrian citizens were killed the majority civilians, while others put the number at 20,000 (Robert Fisk), or 40,000 (Syrian Human Rights Committee). About 1,000 Syrian soldiers were killed during the operation and large parts of the old city were destroyed. Alongside events like the Black September massacre in Jordan, the attack has been described as among "the single deadliest acts by any Arab government against its own people in the modern Middle East". The vast majority of the victims were civilians.

Full article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hama_massacre

[Arctic Dave]

44. I'm not saying it's OK, I am saying it is understandable.

What do you think the US's response would be if all the "militias" in the US got together and decided to overthrow the gov because they were tired of Obama? The US would crush them in a heartbeat, and they would ALL be considered civilians.

Like I said before, look at the way our government treats people just for exercising "their rights", you really believe they would hesitate to step it up a notch if the really felt threatened?

[ChangoLoa]

45. So the Syrian street demonstrators are in fact violent militias, right? nt

[Arctic Dave]

52. Are militia violent? I would wager that most aren't.

I use them as an example of a group of people who are more likely then the average population who talk of overthrow of the government.

[Turborama]

55. The scenario you portray is that they would be trying to violently overthrow the government.

Otherwise, why even mention militias? Why not just say protesters?

BTW here's http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Turborama/127">a protest in America that was attended by armed militias, how many of them were shot or 'disappeared'?

[Turborama]

47. That's a total & utter false equivalence. It's "understandable" that Assad's seen what happened...

...in Iran, Libya, Egypt and Tunisia.

He has obviously decided to cling onto power using the brutal methods of the former 2 dictatorships, in a desperate attempt to avoid the same fate as the latter 2 dictators.

BTW All 5 of them began with peaceful protests, no militias were involved.

[Arctic Dave]

53. A false equivalence? Why, because you don't like the outcome?

The reality of all the situations is that all the governments were bent on staying in power, the ones who were successful so far in changing that are the ones who had support throughout the country, not a handful.

As for the militia part, I use tham as an example of US citizens who often talk about overthrowing the government. Some are violent, most are not. Most are likey idiots though.

[Turborama]

54. No, because America is a democracy and Syria is a dictatorship.

You can vote Presidents out of office in America, impossible in Syria. That's just one reason why it's a false equivalence.

FYI The ones I listed that were successful in suppressing the peaceful protesters were the ones who used the most violence. Gaddafi has been using a lot of violence, but he hasn't succeeded because the once peaceful protesters are now fighting back.

Look at it like this, there have been multiple 'peaceful' (not violent, but very noisy) protests by the Koch Brothers' minions in America since President Obama was elected. How many times did President Obama order them to be shot? How many home invasions to apprehend those protesters has he ordered? How many tanks have been used to fire into districts where those protesters live? How many international news organizations have been banned from reporting from inside America?

I'll ask you again, why don't you just straight out condemn the mass killings of the peaceful Syrian protesters?

[Arctic Dave]

57. America is a rigged casino. Democracy is waaaay too idealistic.

Do you really think the teabaggers are a threat to this govrnment's survival? The last time this country really had a threat to it's existance was the sixties and look at the response of the government. Now, they just beat them, jail them and undermine their organizations by planting troublemakers and sock puppets.

If you want to see how our government reacts to people who protest, gather up an equal percentage of people as they are in Syria to march on the Whitehouse protesting the high price of gas. When the authorities tell you to disperse, come back and tell me how great they treat you in a democracy.

[Turborama]

58. I'm going to put it as simply as I can. Opposition is treated with zero tolerance in Syria.

In America opposition is tolerated.

America has presidential elections every 4 years. Syria doesn't have presidential elections.

Why don't you just straight out condemn the mass killings of the peaceful Syrian protesters?


(edited to fix typo)

[Arctic Dave]

59. Why don't you just say that if the US had the same existential threat it would react the same.

Peaceful or not, the government will lash out in a violent if you threaten it's existence.

[Turborama]

60. Because peacefully protesting for reform has happened in the US & Obama didn't react the same way

If you're going to insist that the peaceful protests for R E F O R M that started all this (the calls for regime change came A F T E R the brutal & murderous reactions to the initial protests for R E F O R M) were an "existential threat" to Assad's "existence" this conversation is over right here and now.

I explained this to you clearly in reply #17:

"When this began the Syrians were peacefully protesting for reform, not for the overthrow of Assad."

ETC: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4828991&mesg_id=4829418


I'm giving up and not wasting any more of my time on this.


(edited to clarify the finality)

[totodeinhere]

30. I refuse to believe that President Obama would sanction the willful murder of peaceful protesters

such as is going on in Syria. If he would, then I don't even know what we are doing here at DU. It would be totally hopeless. But I don't believe it.

[LibertyFox]

36. That would be the end of America if ANY president did that

If Obama or any president ordered that as a matter of policy you'd likely see both sides come together, because the federal government will have proven that it can no longer be trusted to respect the rights of free people.

[Fool Count]

38. US government forces already killed protesters on

multiple occasions, Kent State murders being but one most publicized case. Hell, you didn't even have to protest anything to be
murdered by US government - all the Branch Davidians in Waco wanted was to be left alone. Yet US government came in and
killed them all - more people at once than murdered by Qaddafi forces in initial Libyan protests. Yet America somehow
survives, without even getting bombed by anyone.

[joshcryer]

39. The Scranton Commission found the Kent State killings unjustified.

Gaddafi called the protesters rats and Assad is calling them foreign terrorists.

Huge fucking difference.

The Branch Davidians were killed by their own people, the audio recordings showed that they poured gas all over the compound.

Again, big difference.

[EFerrari]

25. Falluja. n/t

[bloomington-lib]

6. He sure has a lot of friends that like to kill protesters

[UnrepentantLiberal]

10. Anyone who hates America must be a good

person. Leftists would defend Chavez if he was friends with Pol Pot.

[dameocrat67]

21. So do we!

look at our support for Bahrain.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

29. Both are wrong.

You won't see me defending America being friendly with oppressive, murderous regimes. What's your excuse?

[mountainlion55]

9. We are the EVIL empire!

Every comfort and advantage we have in this country is predicated on the suffering of a third of the globe. :wtf:

[johnroshan]

12. True. However,

how is that an excuse for supporting a government that murders protestors?

Its insane... Syria murders protesters => EVIL AMERIKA!!1! No need to censure the Syrian govt, because America is evil!

Gaffadi bombs his people => EVIL AMERICAA!!! No need to protect the libyan people because USA is the evil empire!

:wtf:

[harmonicon]

16. It's only the crazies that don't love civil war.

How dare countries not openly welcome insurrection?! Can you believe that Timothy McVeigh was prosecuted?! Damn US murdering it's own people.

Meanwhile.... the US just sold loads of weapons to the Saudi government.... you know, that same government which doesn't allow women to vote, drive, or leave their house without a man. It's all because we love freedom, and isn't at all because the Saudis are our oil buddies, whereas the Syrian and Libyan governments don't mind telling the US where to stick it.

[johnroshan]

41. What do you think would be a good enough reason for insurrection?

Syria's human rights situation is among the worst in the world, according to human rights organizations such as the Human Rights Watch. The authorities arrest democracy and human rights activists, censor websites, detain bloggers, and impose travel bans. Arbitrary detention, torture, and disappearances are widespread. Although Syria's constitution guarantees gender equality, critics say that personal status laws and the penal code discriminate against women and girls. Moreover, it also grants leniency for so-called honor crimes.


Are you really comparing what the Syrian people are going through with the American Public?

Put yourself in their shoes, what would you do? Join the insurrection, or side with the government?


US foreign policy fiasco is altogether another topic. The question here is do you support the actions of the Syrian Government?

[harmonicon]

48. I only meant to address our foreign policy.

As for "support", I really wish people would stop throwing that word around. I think unless someone is supported monetarily or in kind (professional editorializing, donations of services, etc.), the word should not be used.

I really can't say what I'd do if I lived in Syria. I'd said that when Bush was elected I'd leave the US, but I didn't actually get around to it until 2007, and then only because I had a good opportunity.

In almost all cases I think the US should just leave other countries to their own devices, but we've fucked up so much of the world that our fingerprints are all over most of these messes in one way or another.

I'm not comparing Syrians with Americans at all, apart from thinking that we should both be allowed to form our own positions without foreign influence.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Freddie Stubbs]

13. Must be another mistranslation

[mountainlion55]

14. All I can say is

Tune-in Turn-on Drop-out!:evilgrin:

[harun]

18. Unrec, propaganda.

[dameocrat67]

20. Sounds like he opposes an american invasion

so do I. It is not like we did not just do precisely what he is describing in Iraq, and Libya. I do not support Assad or Qaddafi but these humanitarian interventions are completely bogus. How come we are not talking an invasion of Bahrain, which our government openly defends.

[Turborama]

22. He's making shit up to defend Assad. No-one has said they're going to "throw bombs on them"

In fact, the hawkiest hawk John McCain has been flatly stating even he doesn't support attacking Syria.

He says so in this snippet of an interview with Al Jazeera English: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLfuSzcNu0A#

And in this LBN OP: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=4826475

[fascisthunter]

23. yeah, so?

give it a rest already. Look who we are allies with... duh!

[Turborama]

24. So, we (DUers) should call out any inappropriate allies we (our governments) have, too.

I thoroughly detest false equivalence, dishonesty, double standards and hypocrisy, but I do really believe in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Rule">The Golden Rule

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[U4ikLefty]

32. If Chavez cut a fart, you would say he released chemical weapons

on his own people.

[LibertyFox]

37. And his supporters would call it air gentrification. n/t

[David__77]

40. Well, he IS a humanist.

But that doesn't mean he's a progressive and that he doesn't commit crimes even. The Syrian Baath ideology is rooted in enlightenment humanist principles. Let us bear in mind that these principles motivated many criminals.

I oppose any subversion or interference directed at Syria and other sovereign states. I am confident that the people of Syria can determine their fate successfully.

[johnroshan]

42. Please read the following report which lead to R2P being adopted by the UN.

Responsibility to Protect.
www.iciss.ca/pdf/Commission-Report.pdf

Sovereignty is not an inalienable privilege granted to the governments, its a responsibility that it has to bear.

[joshcryer]

43. Yeah, R2P means, effectively, no more civil war...

...if the UN feels like acting on such matters.

Russia and China will not allow action in Syria, that's for damn sure.

[David__77]

51. Sovereignty is a right to be assumed by force of arms.

There are differing views of the matter of national sovereignty. The settlement of the question will be through politics, or through its extension - warfare.

The lesson of imperialist wars is that sovereignty is hardly inalienable when countries are ill-prepared to defend it. I believe that mutually beneficial, voluntary relations between perfectly sovereign states, with non-interference in internal affairs, in a model of international relations.

[harmonicon]

49. Which one are you calling a humanist?

I don't think of Chavez as a humanist. I think he's quite staunchly Catholic, and the I think to two things are quite different (and neither of much good).

[Name removed]

46. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ronnie624]

50. Better than supporting a war-rampaging empire,

that attacks, invades and commits mass murder without hesitation.

Whatever crimes the Syrian government has committed, at least it stays within its own borders, which makes the issue strictly the responsibility of the Syrian people.

[leftynyc]

56. I'm sure the Syrian's who are

getting murdered and those who have to bury them are absolutley thrilled you have puffed up your chest and sniffed at their suffering at the hands of their leaders. Well done.