Kerry heckled by college crowd (wanting immediate withdrawal from Iraq)

[Ediacara]

Kerry heckled by college crowd

April 15, 2004
BY MIKE GLOVER

NEW YORK -- Democrat John Kerry faulted President Bush for a unilateral approach toward Iraq that has created greater dangers for the U.S. military, but the presidential candidate was heckled Wednesday for failing to back the immediate withdrawal of American forces.

''We shouldn't only be tough, we have to be smart. And there's a smarter way to accomplish this mission than this president is pursuing,'' the four-term Massachusetts senator told reporters at City College of New York after an education event.

Kerry backed the 2002 congressional resolution authorizing the president to use force in Iraq, but since then has been harshly critical of Bush's foreign policy. Maintaining his support for the military operation while challenging the Republican incumbent -- and appealing to the Democratic base -- has proven to be a tough dilemma for Kerry, evident by Wednesday's events.

More at the Chicago Sun-Times

[Media_Lies_Daily]

1. Chicago Sun-Times....NeoCon media outlet.

[sasquatch]

2. It's too bad that Kerry can't remember his own past

Hey John,

Iraq is the arab version of Vietnam.

[Voltaire99]

15. That is Kerry's tragedy

He's a "grown up" now, with a grown up pol's baggage of compromises and spent idealism.

In any case, Kerry already has a long way to go to interest youth in him. It would be a surmountable challenge if he were right on Iraq; then he'd primarily have to overcome a leaden personal style. There's no evidence that the youngest voters are as bothered as late Gen X and Boomers by his corporate-friendly GOP-lite economic policies.

But being wrong on the greatest issue of your day--this illegal, immoral, and fruitless invasion--that's something youth won't forgive. Not when it's youth that's staring down the barrel of a draft.

Get wise, John. Time's running out. Any you need a lot more friends than you have right now, my boy.

[Just Me]

28. I agree with you, Voltaire99,...Kerry needs to rekindle his own fire,...

,...and take as strong a stand against this war as he did the one in Vietnam (and why he still refuses to say, "this administration deceived us,...and tricked us all", must involve some ego issue or something I do not wish to believe). I understand that the "plan" to clean up this freakin' mess cannot involve pulling out on a dime because to do so would obviously mean we destroyed a nation and failed to adequately compensate for our injustice. However, If he fails to get the message quite clear that withdrawal is the objective,...he is going to lose the youth. He simply cannot afford to do that.

[JVS]

81. Some would see it as comedy

If Nixon were alive he'd be laughing his ass off and talking about Kerry reaping what he has sown.

[mitchtv]

3. shades of Hubert H Humphrey

couldn't come out against VN and lost

[Merlin]

18. Wow! Excellent observation! Everybody knows now HHH was wrong...

to stick with LBJ in supporting the Vietnam war. Kerry himself would have been vehemently opposed to HHH's position in '68.

The problem with Kerry's position is he's not making it clear that he opposes this war. He's way too lenient in his criticisms of Bush.

He considers himself outspoken when he draws a subtle distinction. But Americans want him to draw some very clear lines in the sand and make a strong stand. That would be leadership. What Kerry is offering now is lukewarm ivory tower criticism--something the young Kerry would have railed against.

[Chicago Democrat]

58. Very good observations

kerry needs some better writers, but events are going his way

[NeoConsSuck]

35. and the scary thing is

who did we get in place of Humphrey?

[lumpy]

51. Yes, Hubert Humphrey

held a near comparable viewpoint as Kerry is doing by essentially saying stay the course in Iraq. If Humphrey had shown fortitude and listened to the people in the street, he might have won. That was the year this Dem voted for Richard Nixon in protest. I have never regretted my vote. Depending on what happens between now and Nov. my vote will go to anyone who advocates pulling the troops out of Iraq and does not support Sharon's plan for the Palestinians.

[mitchtv]

57. well Lumpy, I didn't go that far

I voted eugene McCarthy -

[lumpy]

65. McCarthy was a superior candidate

compared to Humphrey. A pity he didn't win the Dem nomination in 68'. I certainly would have voted for McCarthy if he had won the nomination. By the time the convention was over I had nothing but disgust for the whole process. I just hope I am not in such a funk by the time Nov. rolls around, although no way in hell will I vote for such a dishonorable person as Bush.

[Merlin]

92. I understand. It's important to mention that Nixon said he'd end the war.

Of course, Tricky Dicky was simply playing word games. But they sounded appealing to those of us who wanted it to end. Whereas HHH simply wouldn't move in that direction at all.

[Zolok]

100. Didn't Humphrey offer a bombing halt to Hanoi

on or about September 30th 1968?
What did Nixon offer in campaign 1968?...a "secret plan" to end the war.
John Kerry at least has been up front as to what he would and would not do which compares most favorably to Bush's stumbling from massacre to disaster spouting gibberish the whole way.
John Kerry share certain happy qualities with Hubert Humphrey
He is not an ideologue
He is not a fool
and he is not a utopian.
Give me that any day.
BTW Anyone who can find me a copy of that Humphrey speech UNCUT on VHS will earn my gratitude and appropriate compensation.

[Rex]

4. IMO Kerry will keep our troops in Iraq.

nt

[Bonhomme Richard]

5. This is OK................

They may heckle him about not pulling troops out of Iraq but they definitely are not voting for shrub.

[0007]

25. Kerry will go down if the U.S. isn't removed from Iraq

May be a one termer also.

[gate of the sun]

67. I agree and if he implements the draft

forget it....

[Mithras61]

6. Final paragraphs & some thoughts...

Republicans rejected the criticism, with Bush's re-election campaign chairman Marc Racicot calling Kerry's comments ''a political attack that is very, very seriously undermining our efforts in Iraq and in the war on terror.''

In a conference call with reporters, Racicot said Kerry simply blames America for provoking the attacks in Iraq without offering a competing vision that addresses the war on terrorism.

What is Racicot talking about? How is this undermining our efforts in the war on terrorism? Iraq has NOTHING to do with the war on terrorism, and as to undermining our efforts in Iraq, that may be, but don't you think that surrounding & threatening the holiest of Shi'ite holy sites may have undermined our efforts a bit? How about targetting women, children & the elsderly in Fallujah? How about building an eathen wal around Fallujah? I suppose THOSE actions don't have anything to do with why there appears to be an uprising in Iraq. It's all because Kerry is saying that Bush's war is a failure & has nothing to do with the reasons given for us being there.

[yardwork]

8. Remember Chimpco blamed Newsweek on Tuesday night.

"If you aren't with us you're against us."

[Occulus]

85. That's a little chilling.

Racicot is making a very dangerous implication here, and it's a legal argument in favor of a prosecutorial position I think may never have been used in America up until now:

The (opposition) candidate for President is guilty of aiding and comforting the enemy, such crime also being known as treason, by making the comments he made in XYZ speech against the policies of a sitting President currently waging war.

Now, I know that's a bit far-fetched, but the Supreme Court halting a running vote count to appoint a President is also a little far-fetched. I think we all agree that this President will not go quietly, and Racicot's intimation here is that those who do as I wrote in bold- criticize a wartime President- are guilty of treason. Even though the Constitution never mentions it, and even though elections are held every four years.

This could be at once an absolutely brilliant (from a tactics POV) move by the * administration and an absolutely devastating event for all other people in this country critical of GWB. Legally, I don't think there's anything in the Constitution that could stop this; shoot, the thing provides specifically for the crime of treason and it's definition:

Article 3, Section 3. Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.

Now, Congress would define the punishment for treason, but that's a beesting after a beheading if you're a Presidential candidate, as Kerry is. All Racicot needs to do is let slip the three words "aid and comfort" related to the election and I'll know that this is what he's up to.

Think about this last point if you're still not convinced of the plausibility of this scenario: Bush would not have to cancel any elections, call martial law, or steal any votes to win if the opposition candidates have been taken care of in a court of law.

Given the way the man got in office, I wouldn't put it past his team to try to pull a real fast one, just like last time.....


irreparable harm, indeed.....


edit: know how I pronounce GWB?

Gwib.

[LisaM]

7. Kerry seemed surprised by the anti-war crowds on the campaign trail, too

I just got a questionnaire from the Democratic party, and the war in Iraq wasn't even listed as a top concern. I'm still deciding how to fill it out.

[yardwork]

9. You're kidding!!

Is Kerry's campaign being brought to us by the maroons who ran Gore's campaign in 2000?

Is there a single competent politician left in the U.S.?

[LSK]

36. Howard Dean

[dweller]

43. DENNIS KUCINICH

[JI7]

10. Kerry wasn't heckled

kerry himself was the one who called on the anti war guy to ask him a question. and kerry answered.

[Ediacara]

11. Hmmm

Well as a poster stated previously, the Sun-Times ia a conservative paper, so take this with a grain of salt I guess.

[JI7]

17. yeah, i watched the entire town hall meeting on tv

i read reports about the heckling also and wanted to see for myself and was waiting to see when it would start. but it turns out there was no heckling and it was just a guy asking a question after kerry called on him. there was a bit of a debate between the two with the guy getting a bit emotional and shaking but kerry was calm and handled it well. let the guy finish asking the question and even allowed for follow up.

the only hecklers so far have been republican idiots and kerry makes them look like fools each time they start acting up and try to disrupt him.

[sandnsea]

22. I saw hints of Iowa

You always know Kerry has connected when you see the people come up to him with that look that says "I'm trusting you with my most personal problems and I need you to promise me you're going to fix them." I don't see that with any other candidate, I've rarely seen it in any election at all. He was great yesterday and if that's how all of his Town Hall Meetings are going, we're going to see something very exciting in this country by convention time!

[JI7]

32. i thought the exact same thing as i was watching

and kerry WAS THE BEST in that town hall format of all the candidates i saw. because when kerry takes a question from someone , even if it's in front of a large audience, for that moment he is taking the question it's only between kerry and the person asking the question. he listens to them , he allows them to question him, to challenge him. you can say he EXPECTS them to do it. and he knows as a candidate seeking their vote and trust he owes it to them to give them the truth and answer to their question as best as he can.

when the people go up to him they don't see him as some big name politician they need to be careful around. notice how comfortable they are in asking their questions to him. they don't feel ashamed or worry about what or how they will be seen by him. they see him as someone who should and WILL help them out. people sometimes complain about him giving long answers, but don't people deserve answers to their questions as specific and detailed as can be rather than just some line that may sound good without actually having answered it?

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

39. You're kidding, right?

Go to C-Span and watch some early TH meetings, pre-primaries (if they're still there). Kerry is out of the room within minutes of completing his speech. Other candidates stayed for nearly an hour to press the flesh. I know this because I used to time Kerry for his surge to the exit (he was famous for this in my household). 6 minutes was his best time. Other candidates would regularly stay for 50+ minutes.

[JI7]

45. no, she isn't kidding, i saw exactly what she saw

we talked about it on du at times and how great kerry did there while most others talked about kerry's campaign being over and how low he was in the polls.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

48. 10/27/2003, Iowa Community College

http://www.c-span.org/search/basic.asp?ResultStart=11&ResultCount=10&BasicQueryText=john+kerry&image1.x=24&image1.y=3&


1:26:16

[Zhade]

53. "I don't see that with any other candidate..."

Did you honestly not see the same in Kucinich and even Dean?

I saw it. Still do.

[Sterling]

59. It was more than a heckle. It was a scathing

He said Kerry would be hated for the same reasons as Bush. He was right.

[CityDem]

27. Shoot the messenger

I watched a clip of this exchange last night on cable news. I have not found a transcript of the entire question, but this "heckler" asked a very valid question. I believe he represented the belief of many on this board that Kerry's plan does not vary significantly from Bush's plan. Many are opposed to the war and the senseless killing and want it to stop ASAP. In his typical fashion, Kerry is trying to straddle the middle of the road without taking a principled position. He is going to face more and more dissent on this issue and the media will report it as they should.

[Oreegone]

46. It wasn't a college kid either

This guy was in his 50's who was giving him a bad time.

[Slide]

12. Kerry is following

the basic playbook: Support the goals, attack the process. He cannot take a firm position on the war until the situation stabilizes. If he goes Dean and this thing ends up working out, he's screwed.

Note to Kerry: Despite what your staff may say, you are not an inspiring speaker. Stay away from colleges. They will generate their own anger. It will be against Bush.

[sandnsea]

20. He was brilliant at that college

Watch it on C-Span. It was one old hippie professor, not even a college student. And the crowd applauded his comments. The headline is a total distortion of what happened. And there's a difference between hysteria and inspiration. Kerry inspires and those kids were definitely inspired. To become better human beings than they ever thought they could be and that's what his campaign is all about.

[Slide]

42. Thanks sandnsea.

No, I didn't see it and I was just working off info from the original post. I guess I stand corrected. Plus my post was a little snarky.

I'm having trouble working up enthusiasm for JFK. I'll get there, but it's a process for me.

[Zhade]

55. You DO realize this WON'T end up working out, right?

The Iraqis want us GONE, yesterday. Considering the collective punishment being meted out in Fallujah, and the deliberate targeting of women, children, the elderly, and ambulances, they have every right to be demanding our withdrawal - by force, if necessary.

The occupation is illegal. This will not work out in any way that the U.S. government expects or plans it to. This is another Viet Nam, and we will either leave willingly or be forced out.

The war is wrong. If Kerry supported the short-term use of force only to disarm Hussein - as many claim - then he should realize that is no longer an issue, because there are no WMD, Hussein is now a prisoner - why are we still there?

Either he continues to support an occupation that is illegal under international law, or he doesn't. Which is it?

[gate of the sun]

68. one of the reasons is they don't really want democracy in Iraq

they will only be allowed to install a government pleasing to the United States and that will never ever work in Iraq. This is a ridiculous situation and I predict we will eventually end up leaving accomplishing only ousting Hussein and killing many people.

[David__77]

13. This wasn't "heckling," and I agree with the anti-occupation people.

It was presenting a position. It's true that what Kerry is supporting the occupation. Both parties' politicians are supporting the occupation except for a few courageous exceptions. I support Kerry, but I strongly oppose his position on Iraq.

[Voltaire99]

16. Me, too

I'll hold my nose and vote for him, but not without trying to push his campaign into sense on Iraq.

[BadGimp]

14. Guess they will go ahead and vote for *

hhmm oh well

[Demobrat]

21. No. There's no way they'll cast a vote for W.

If the anti-war left can't bring themselves to vote for Kerry, which seems more and more likely, they'll go Nader, do a write-in or stay home.

[DonP]

33. Agreed. How many stay home concerns me.

OK, I'll expose my neurotic conspiracy theory side here.

Since the primaries I have had a vague sense of unease that some higher up folks, media and the senior party people, have been pulling the strings to see to it that Kerry was the ultimate choice.

My greatest fear now is that instead of uniting us, people are going to start to splinter off as the message becomes duller and more "centrist" in the view and message of the media.

If the anti-war "pull em out now" segment is driven to stay home and a few other hard left folks are discouraged we are in deep doo doo electorally. No they won't vote for Bush but if they don't vote we are gonna have problems on 11/3 that we don't want and should not have.

Good wishes and thoughts don't count for votes (well, except here in Chicago when even our loved ones that have passed on vote).

I did not particularly like the way the questions were asked but I did appreciate the fact that he was allowed to speak and wasn't interrupted. I don't agree with some of the professor's points of view but they represent a lot of Dem's that are feeling increasingly ill at ease in this slow motion campaign.

[CabalBuster]

19. I won't vote Kerry.....he does not deserve my vote at all. N/T

[Democat]

30. Vote for Bush, then, but why hang around DU?

If you want to help a Republican get elected, why bother those of us working to get Democrats elected?

[Demobrat]

34. Sucks when people won't fall in line, huh?

There should be limits to freedom. Just ask W.

[LSK]

37. So youd rather have Bush

Because that in reality is your only 2 choices. Nadar WILL NOT WIN.

[davhill]

23. Let's get him elected first

Then, if he continues the neocon's policies, we can heckle and demonstrate against him.

[Merlin]

24. In October, Kerry will announce: I have a plan to end the war.

He will say that unlike Nixon's plan, it is not secret. And unlike Nixon's plan it will work and work quickly.

The plan is simply and clearly to give over control to the UN in exchange for a multinational peacekeeping force supervising the transition, in which we would be a participant.

Bush will say "We've tried that and the UN refuses." Bullshit! They have NEVER offered to turn over control (meaning control of the oil fields) and that's THE bottom line.

In any case, when Kerry makes the above announcement, it will win him the election. The Bush people will be unable to satisfactorily respond to it.

Thus endeth today's view in the crystal ball.

[JVS]

84. I don't see why the UN would be any more palatable to Iraqis

Remember that it is under UN sanctions that Iraqis suffered for over a decade. Hell, America is filled with people who distrust the UN, which is amazing considering that the UN usually does our bidding. How can we expect Iraqis to have any faith in the UN? If Iraqis continue fighting the war is still going on, even if the UN is involved. It would merely be selecting occupation force casualties from a larger pool.

[Merlin]

94. Negative. There's a world of difference, literally.

First, the UN would not actively be seeking to pacify Iraq by conducting ongoing aggressive missions. The UN would be a peacekeeping force; more like an interim police force determined to keep the peace.

The Iraqis bridle at the US occupation because of everything the US represents in their eyes, and--even more important--because they do not believe we will, in the end, leave without leaving well secured hooks in place to continue our de facto control (neither do I).

You are making the assumption that the Iraqis are idiots who enjoy chaos. They are not. They are rational, intelligent people. Most are patriots, though a few are busy maneuvering for power.

To make a similar comparison, imagine that the Chinese sent an army into the US to take out the government of "evil" George Bush, then occupied America, taking control of all of our oil fields, saying that as soon as a government satisfactory to them was in place they would leave. How would you feel? Would you fight them tooth and nail? I would!

[JVS]

96. I don't assume they enjoy chaos

I assume that they would resent an occupation. UN or US. The actions of the UN over the last 12 years probably are about as popular among Iraqis as the actions of NATO are among Serbians, or about as much as the League of Nations was during inter-war Germany. The UN gave its stamp of approval to many actions which were harmful to Iraqis.

"The UN Security Council imposed comprehensive economic sanctions against Iraq on August 6, 1990, just after the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait. When the coalition war had ousted Iraq from Kuwait the following year, the Council did not lift the sanctions, keeping them in place as leverage to press for Iraqi disarmament and other goals. The sanctions remained in place thereafter, despite a harsh impact on innocent Iraqi civilians and an evident lack of pressure on Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein. A UN "Oil-for-Food Program," started in late 1997, offered some relief to Iraqis, but the humanitarian crisis continued. The US and UK governments always made it clear that they would block any lifting or serious reforming of sanctions as long as Hussein remained in power. After more than twelve years of sanctions had passed, the US and the UK made war on Iraq again in March, 2003, sweeping away Hussein's government. Soon after, Washington called for and obtained the lifting of sanctions, a step that gave the US occupation authority full control over Iraq's oil sales and oil industry. This section covers a wide range of sanction issues, including the humanitarian impact, the Oil-for-Food Programme, criticisms of the sanctions and the debate that took place about their termination "
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/sanction/indexone.htm

Does this sound like an organization that is doing the bidding of the US to you? Even if we were to assume that the majority of Iraqis trust the UN (a doubtful proposition) we still know from experience that UN headquarters have been attacked in 2003 and the UN decided to evacuate many of their staff members. Sending in the UN is no substitute for leaving the Iraqis to decide their own future.

Thanks for assuming that I'm a bigot and falsely attributing assumptions to me though, very charming discussion tactic. :eyes:

[robbedvoter]

26. The heckler was interviewed on Air America this morning

he was a socialist, editor of a magazine called "the Proletarian".

After listening 2 minutes to him speaking, I lost any sympathy for him. I also liked Kerry's answer.

[CityDem]

29. Why do we have to hold our nose

Not wanting to open up the wounds of the primary season, it bothers me to hear people (like myself) say they oppose Kerry's position on Iraq, but will hold my nose and vote for him in any case. Iraq is such an important issue we should have a candidate that represents our values, not one that straddles the fence for political reasons. Where is the Bobby Kennedy in this race? I am finding it harder each day to support Kerry and may end up voting for a third party candidate.

[JohnKleeb]

31. The Bobby Kennedy in this race was the man, a lot here agreed with

but found unelectable, Kucinich btw.

[tigereye]

38. it seems to me that people need to consider all aspects

of Kerry's views.

I think it is important to consider the judges that would be appointed... fed bench and Supreme Court, as well.

The limitations that are placed on choice currently and the bizarre appointments to health commissions by * and his ilk.

The ridiculous foreign policy currently in place that led partly to this absurd war and occupation.

The terrible economic policy and lack of concern for those that have little.

I think if you look down the line at * vs. kerry's positions ( and granted I do not know all the details by any means) you will see important differences. JMO

[IndianaGreen]

56. We will do better with Dennis Kucinich as the nominee than with Kerry

Kerry has already endorsed the Sharon/Bush deal. Kerry opposes gay marriage and supports the war in Iraq.

Dennis is the real deal, not the phony deal!

[Matilda]

60. Has Kerry really endorsed the Sharon/Bush deal?

That is so disappointing.

[IndianaGreen]

63. Here is the Washington Post story

Analysis
Move Could Help Bush Among Jewish Voters

By Dana Milbank and Mike Allen
Washington Post Staff Writers
Thursday, April 15, 2004; Page A16

In declaring that Israel should be able to keep some of the occupied territories and block Palestinian refugees from settling in Israel, Bush followed a familiar pattern of finding common cause with Jews and increasingly pro-Israel Christian conservatives. That Bush's move was good politics was evidenced by Democratic rival John F. Kerry's quick move not to let Bush outflank him among pro-Israel voters.

"I think that could be a positive step," the Massachusetts senator said, approving of the Bush-Sharon action regarding both refugees and Israel's borders. "What's important obviously is the security of the state of Israel, and that's what the prime minister and the president, I think, are trying to address."

<snip>

Republican officials in Washington said that while they are confident Bush made his decision for sincere policy reasons, they believe the potential impact on the politics of 2004 could be substantial. "This will make it that much harder for John Kerry to win Florida," said a Republican aide on Capitol Hill who refused to be identified because of the sensitivity of the issue. Associates said Bush's strategists believe that even small inroads into the Jewish vote could mean the difference between winning and losing Florida, and several Republicans believe the announcement could further inhibit Kerry's fundraising in the Jewish community.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A12952-2004Apr14.html

[Zhade]

78. Jesus. Kerry actually SAID this?

"I think that could be a positive step," the Massachusetts senator said, approving of the Bush-Sharon action regarding both refugees and Israel's borders."

Is he fucking insane? How is this a positive step? It's further land theft and the official U.S. condonement of such theft!

[Demobrat]

41. The Dems are treating the anti-war folks

exactly they same way they have treated minorities for years. Just give us your vote, sit down and shut up. Or the boogeyman will get you.

[Dr Fate]

72. I am anti- war , and a Democrat. I dont feel that way...

...in fact, anti-war voices were and are pretty loud at my local Democratic headquarters.

You let Bush stay in, and you wont see ANY Liberal values, much less an alternative to Bush's foreign policy...

My guess is that most of these anti-war people you are talking about do not donate any time to the Democratic party, so therfore they have no voice.

Anti-war, minorities, Union dudes, etc- all have a voice in their local Democratic organizations, but they have to SHOW UP and EARN it to get it.

[Zhade]

80. Oh, so different levels of democracy for different types of people?

That's fascism, you know.

Anti-war, minorities, Union dudes, etc- all have a voice in their local Democratic organizations, but they have to SHOW UP and EARN it to get it.

No. We all have the same right to a voice in our government, no matter how much time is given to a particular party. It is our inherent right to have a voice - a vote - that makes America (in theory alone, these days) a democratic Republic. One does not have to "earn" that voice, which is applied through our vote and other activities.

This is as dangerous and fallacious an idea as the myth that the U.S. military "wins" us our freedom. That freedom is the fundamental human right, not some gift bestowed by the armed forces. They defend our freedom when used honestly for such, yes, but the whole point of this country is that we recognize the fact that our freedom is the basic starting point as a citizen here. It doesn't work that way anymore (I predict that November will be a shocking month), but that's the theory, anyway.

[Dr Fate]

82. Since when is being a Democrat being a facist?

I dont know what you are talking about.

Are you suggesting people should STAY HOME?

All I was trying to say is that if you want your voice to be heard in the Democratic party, it helps if you are active in the party.

Its a no-brainer, and it is not facism at all- its about as All-American as it gets.

[Zhade]

86. Of course I'm not suggesting people stay home.

Don't put words in my mouth, please.

All I'm saying is that your demand that people "earn" their voice is going a bit far for my taste. People don't have to earn a voice - by design, they are supposed to already have one under a democracy.

[Dr Fate]

90. I stand by that statement...

If you dont speak up, no one is going to hear you. I'm not saying we should not speak up for people who cant-

You want Democrats to just give you a "free ride"? Not going to happen. It's up to YOU to insert your values- dont expect them to magically appear- they are YOUR values, after all...

You have a choice- you can complain about Democrats, or you can "do democracy" by having a voice in a party that will actually get people with good ideas ELECTED...

Sorry, not trying to put words in your mouth, (or call you a facist!)

Please understand me- I'm talking about Democrats here- and Democratic organizations-

If you think Nader or Voo-Doo Man or whoever can give you a voice in government, go for it.

[lostnfound]

95. I am a Democrat, I am anti-war, and I DO feel that way.

Never any productive alternative to the two faces of the war party.

Too much money to be made in war; public too brainwashed; elites too greedy; some too greedy or scared or faithless to believe we could survive just fine without being an empire.

[Kitsune]

97. same here *nt*

[Bdog]

40. I liked it better when Kerry was calling Bush a phuck-up.

Kerry should just tell the truth...Bush is a phuck-up and no mater what we do he has put us in a no-win situation.

[DoYouEverWonder]

44. Just saw a large crowd of college students

on the corner of University and SW 13 St. in Gainesville, FL all waving banners and signs for Kerry.

[Maestro]

47. It's a no win situation

I supported going in a doing something with Hussein as he was totally disregarding the UN up until the very end. By that time, too much equipment had moved too close for Bush to say okay, let's back down, so we went in. I cautiously supported this action hoping that my government had some sort of out strategy to turn power over quickly to some provisional government. Gawd was I suckered just as Kerry was. But anyhow, to pull out now would leave a power vaccuum that would lead to even more disgusting blood-shed than is now going on presently. The Shiite majority would attack the Sunnis, the Sunnis and the Shiites would attack the Kurds. There would be civil war everywhere.

I can not in my wildest dreams see how the Bushies could not have envisioned this, but alas I will never, never, ever make that mistake again. They thought this would be another Afghanistan. Afghanistan's government is not stable but at least there, there was someone to whom to give the keys. Who is that in Iraq? The governing council? Yeah right, we leave and the governing council will start fighting and the first to be booted, killed, assasinated or whatever will be the puppet Chalabi.

Anyhow, those booing Kerry because he doesn't support an immediate withdrawal, are missing the bigger point here. We are there and need to fix it. Unfortunately, Bushie's problem of Iraq is also Kerry's.

[sasquatch]

49. Disregarding the UN?!?

Let's see he never kicked out UN inspecters and had no WMD's, Navy, Air Force or standing Army. How is this disregarding the UN. Please tell me you aren't that ignorant!

[Maestro]

77. Sorry there bud

He kicked them out after the first war and started redeveloping some weapons, mainly biological research up until '95 we later found out I think but nothing was weaponized. Hell even Clinton feared this as he was privy to the intelligence also. It wasn't until the UN pressured him to allow inspectors in that he backed down. When was that? November 2000 or something? Don't patronize me. Saddam was and is an asshole. He became one long before the US got buddy-buddy with him. He's lying scum. Talk to the Kurds and Shiites.

[sasquatch]

79. Man I hate to let you in on the obvious but

He didn't kick them out, Clinton had them ordered out in 1998 so the US could do "Opperation desert Fox." That's why Saddam couldn't make any WMD's, which allowed Junior Bush to steal their oil bud. That's why the Bush Crime Family invaded Iraq.

[Zhade]

87. You are completely wrong, for the reasons that the other poster mentioned.

The "he kicked the inspectors out" is a bullshit story. Wake up and smell the propaganda, man!

[David Zephyr]

50. This Is Good for Kerry & For the American People To Witness.

Democracy in action.

This only hurts George Stupid Bush.

[Zhade]

52. Wait just a fucking minute.

''We shouldn't only be tough, we have to be smart. And there's a smarter way to accomplish this mission than this president is pursuing,'' the four-term Massachusetts senator told reporters at City College of New York after an education event.

Mission? What fucking mission?

I have been told time and time and time again by rabid anti-dissent anti-'leftist' Kerry followers that he never supported the war, that he only supported 'disarming Saddam'.

Well, if this is true (which I still do not agree is the case), then the 'mission' is DONE, John. HUSSEIN HAD NO FUCKING WEAPONS! It's OVER! We need the soldiers to come home.

So what the hell is Kerry talking about? WHY ARE WE STILL THERE, JOHN? Why are you supporting a 'mission' that is not the one you claim you originally backed?

[Laughing Mirror]

54. And he really believes I'm going to throw away my vote on him?

After all he's done and said, just in the past few days.

Spare me Kerry.

[Dr Fate]

70. So voting Democrat is throwing away a vote?

So your mission is to encourage people not to vote Kerry?

[Laughing Mirror]

73. I will vote for anybody but Bush and Kerry

There's always a workers party candidate or a green or somebody on the ballot in New York. That's who'll get my vote, thank you.

I am no less a democrat than you are either.

Understand that now.

[Dr Fate]

74. Really- you volunteer for your local DEM organization?

It's Democrat- with a capital D.

Our party symbol is a Donkey.

Enjoy casting your ballot for Voo-Doo Man or who-ever.

Hopefully us Democrats will save your but and get Bush out...

Thanks for nothing.

[Laughing Mirror]

75. Thanks for the much-neded lesson in democracy, Dr.

The Big Tent is alive and well, I see.

[Dr Fate]

76. It sure is- come on in...

You start by becoming active in your local Democratic organization- that is how you insert your values into the "tent"...

You are right- the tent is open- just dont pull the stakes out...

[Zhade]

88. Democracy doesn't apply only to Democrats, Dr.

If someone wants to vote for a different candidate, we can disagree, but they have the right to vote for a different candidate. You either accept this, or you don't accept democracy.

Can we say the vote is stupid? Sure. Can we get angry that it might help b*sh? Sure. Can we stop anyone from voting the way they feel they need to vote? Not on your life.

Besides, it's a secret ballot. They could vote for anyone and tell you they voted for Kerry, just to avoid attacks, and you'd never know.

[Dr Fate]

91. But I'm talking about DEMOCRATS here at DEMOCRATICUNDERGROUND

If you think Nader or Voo-Doo Man, or whoever can actually give you a voice and implement your some of your beliefs in government, then go for it. But you will wind up with Bush and Cheif Justice Scalia if you are not careful.

I still think the best bet is Democrats...

I still think the BEST strategy is to strengthen DEMOCRATS by helping them, not tearing them down.

[Zhade]

99. Hey, I happen to agree (though VDM has a strong base).

I'm just pointing out that you have no right to demand others vote and participate as you see fit.

Despite your insistence to the contrary, DU is NOT just for Democrats who belong to the party. Read the About sometime, you'll see that Greens and other progressives are welcome here, provided they don't actively work to destroy the Dem candidate.

And I'm sorry if you disagree, but criticizing Kerry is not destroying him, nor is such criticism unpatriotic or undemocratic. Indeed, dissent is more patriotic than merely falling in line with the party's demands.

[osaMABUSh]

61. Anybody who posts here and does not vote Kerry over Bush

is living in a dream world. You all know what * has done to the US and world and you won't vote for Kerry??

He may not be your first choice but four more years of * y'all may as well move to Canada.

I mean get real. You can't be elected as a Kucinich or Nader. We understand the desire for a perfect world but we're talking about survival here.

Frankly, I'm a little sick of the Kerry bashing.

Bush is a miserable failure and Kerry is our nominee.

[Dr Fate]

71. I've never seen anything like it...

...these clowns think they are doing me some kind of fucking favor by bashing my candidate...unbelievable...

I wonder how all this philosophical righteousness will feel with 4 (8?)(12?) more years of Bush/Cheney/Ashcroft/Scalia/Rush/Fawell??

Its one thing to fuck me, but dont act like you are doing me a favor...

I think my liberal credentials remain solid if I chose Kerry over Bush/Cheney/Ashcroft/Scalia/Rush/Fawell!!!

[leesa]

62. Excellent! Yes, let's make him accoutable for our actions in the future

No more of the same old 'US the abuser' crap.

[osaMABUSh]

64. BTW Kerry is doing quite well on campus

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/04/15/student.poll/index.html

Poll: Kerry leads Bush among students
Harvard poll suggests 48 percent for Kerry, 38 percent for Bush

[gate of the sun]

66. As it should be

I hope he can find it in himself to hear the plea's of those who will looking at a draft. As the sentiment against action in Iraq grows I wonder if he will be willing to hear what the people want.

[Zhade]

89. What will the rabidly pro-Kerry people say if he calls for a draft?

I'm still waiting to hear the answer to that one.

[gate of the sun]

93. they will probably back it....

that's my guess. Unless of course one of their children are in line. Like 2 of mine are. It doesn't seem to matter lately what he does some back him hook, line and sinker. Some say he will go to the left when he "wins". I suggest another line that he is letting people know "now" where he stands. I wish that wasn't true, but I think it is.

[Robin Hood]

69. IS this one of the many College's on Chris Matthews College tour?

All the colleges he went to on his college tour before the Iraq war. He asked who there supported going into Iraq and the college kids would go crazy with applause, whistle and hoot and hollers. he would then ask, Who here plans on joining the military to fight the iraq war, and you could hear a pin drop.

Are these the same spineless Bush loving hypocrites that booed Kerry today?

[MisterP]

83. I doubt they're the same

or that they're Bush lovers for not wanting Iraqnam extended

[mmonk]

98. The reason I preferred someone who was against the war

is I had a feeling it would become a main issue despite its popularity many months ago. It makes it harder to callenge current policy.