Business up after Monroeville restaurant's new policy banning under-6 crowd

[Divernan]

Source: Pittsburgh Post-Gazette


Sunday, July 17, 2011
By Mark Roth, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
Bill Wade/Post-Gazette

When the owner of McDains Restaurant in Monroeville sat down to chat around noon Saturday, he was conducting his 60th interview of the week, including three with stations in Australia, one each in Canada and New Zealand, and appearances on CNBC, MSNBC, Fox News and Fox & Friends.

And all because of a decision to no longer seat families with children under age 6 in his restaurant on Broadway Boulevard, right next to the golf driving range he has owned for 22 years. "I think it taps into the fact that there has been over the last several years such a decline in civility, from road rage to our behavior in politics."

The no-children-under-6 policy officially began Saturday. Since he announced it early last week, he said, his business has been up 20 percent, his Friday night crowd was the biggest he had ever had outside Mother's Day, and emails have been running 11-to-1 in his favor.

"What is really fascinating about the email is that those who are in favor are giving these very rational responses and telling us how they would remove their own children at any sign of trouble, but those who are against the policy respond in these monosyllabic rants like 'You jerk.' "




Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/11198/1161029-56.stm#ixzz1SMWGMcpw

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He cited 4 facts which have become increasingly problematic over the past few years:
1. More and more families were coming to dinner with infants, "and their primary way of communicating is to cry."
2. RE kids ages 2 to 5, "the kids have become increasingly vocal and they don't sit still and I was always worried about them running into our wait staff."
3. There seemed to be more and more parents "who feel they can go anywhere they want with their kids and do whatever they want," and when he or his staff would say something, their reaction would be "how dare you tell me what to do with my kid?"
4. Many of his most loyal customers, "the ones who had deliberately left their children at home," were complaining.

[fasttense]

1. Well, I can certainly understand the reasons for his policy.

[no_hypocrisy]

2. Sounds like the restaurant has more problems with parents who can't or won't

control their kids than the kids.

[JHB]

4. True, but there's no way to tell which kind the parents are before seating them...

...and by then it's too late unless you're prepared to boot them out. That's not really an option when the whole point is to reduce disruption for the other cusomers.

[LARED]

5. Parents are of course the real problem.

but many of them are quite clueless there is even a problem with a out of control kid.

A few years ago my wife and I were at a fairly nice restaurant for an early dinner. There was a couple with two small kids a few tables over that should have been part of a study on social dysfunction.

The two kids are running around screaming and playing,coming over to our table and running around us. Dad is actually eating a chicken pattie by sticking his fork in the middle, picking it up, and eating around the edges, while Mom is chatting away to the husband about unsavory sounding family gossip loud enough for us to hear.

[Chimichurri]

9. So true.

[WatsonT]

31. 99% of the problems with kids stem from the parents

Unfortunately it's not practical to ban adults.

[Dappleganger]

57. Yes, because nobody can accept that their child needs training anymore.

Parents these days don't want you to tell them anything.

[LARED]

3. Not surprising that business is up

When I had small children, if a child started to misbehave and there was no way to get them on track we left the place as it is rude to subject others to my problem.

Nowadays I see parents allow their children to run around a restaurant making a lot of noise or crying while the parents completely ignore the problem. I as well as most people go to a restaurant to have an enjoyable meal and not have to listen to some out of control kid whose parent think it's amusing when they act up.

[Divernan]

6. Restaurant owner is former high school sociology/psychology teacher

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304223804576444393604792386.html?mod=WSJ_WSJ_US_News_5

The owner of a small restaurant outside Pittsburgh is banning children under the age of 6, saying they regularly disrupted other customers' meals.

The move has touched a nerve and led to television and radio interviews from as far away as New Zealand and Australia for Mike Vuick, owner of McDain's Restaurant and Golf Center in Monroeville, Pa.

It has also sparked strong opinions among those who applaud his decision and those against it. Mr. Vuick said he had received 2,000 emails, running 11-to-1 in favor of his decision.

"I'm doing this on behalf of all the kind, refined people who have emailed me who have had meals ruined," said Mr. Vuick, a former high-school sociology and psychology teacher. "I've decided someone in our society had to dig their heels in on this issue."

[roguevalley]

47. for those who might complain about this policy, exchange

small child with dog or teenager. Would they cry about that? Train your kids to be in public without them being dickish which is just them emulating you or stay home. Kids don't have the right to be EVERYWHERE if they don't behave. Theaters have a separate room for kids for a reason.

[nadine_mn]

7. I am all for this policy, yet interestingly enough, saw kids being better than adults last night

My husband and I chose not to have kids - I like kids fine, just don't want my own. And I agree with most people on this subject that it is not the kids that are the problem its the parents who don't pay attention to or discipline their kids.

Last night my husband and I were at Applebees, normally I don't like to go there because it can be really loud but hey the margaritas are yummy. We went early, around 6pm and there was a retirement party there - several adults and a few young children. Some adults must have been tying one early because they were loud and obnoxious - swearing and dropping the F-bomb every other word and we were a few tables away. Whoever brought the young boys - ages 3-7ish - must have thought that Applebees provided on site day care because the kids were allowed to run free.

How incredibly boring and awful for these kids - surrounded by a bunch of drunk adults in a loud and un-fun place with no one paying attention to them and nothing to do. At one point the youngest was hiding at the bar, sitting on the little ledge where you prop your feet, holding a sippy cup and away from the loudest of the adults. Soon the older boy came running by and scared him by yelling boo and a game of hide and seek of some sort was on. They were running and screaming, bumping into customers and servers, screaming "rawr" at each other.

The hostess reprimanded the boys - no yelling! - when she should have reprimanded the adults for swearing so loud and ignoring the little ones.

This is the issue the man in the story faces - you can't ban the inattentive parents so you have to ban all kids

[titaniumsalute]

8. My wife and I have two kids

They Were NOT allowed to misbehave in public places like restaurants, church, airports, etc. If they did misbehave one of us would leave the building and reprimand or if bad enough we would just leave. Sometimes we drove separate in case one of the kids really tweaked. (hey sometimes they just do.)

It AMAZES us how bad parents are with kids in public. I travel often for business and the way parents let kids behave in airports is horrid. I saw a kid recently try to run down the ramp to a plane (no the one he was supposed to.) The gate agent grabbed the kid, came out and hollered loudly "Who's child is this?" A lady, on her cell phone, simply raised her hand and the agent brought the kid to her. She never stopped her cell conversation and never said a word to the kid.

[Divernan]

10. If an adult had done that, TSA would have been called & he'd have been arrested or committed.

And that's the thing. Yes adults can be obnoxious in public, but if their behavior reaches a certain level, such as screaming uncontrollably, authorities are called and the individual is arrested or committed.

[localroger]

13. The "child predator" hysteria doesn't help

I remember when if you were uncouth enough to let your kids run around a restaurant one of the other patrons would physically restrain your kid and bring him back to you. It's become extremely unsafe though to do that; touch someone else's kid, and you're a pedophile. This is undoubtably why the restaurant in the OP didn't take a more selective approach to the problem.

[KurtNYC]

11. Imagine being a kid and your parents are on the phone ALL THE TIME

If you "act up" they give you an iPod and headphones. Lack of presence and focus is leading to all kinds of problems from car accidents to child neglect.

[trud]

12. on an airplane

when I was in coach, there were two monsters behind me kicking the seats and screaming for hours. There was a foreign nanny with them, accomplishing nothing. Where were the parents? In first class. What goes on in these people's brains?

[fasttense]

14. So the parents rode in first class and put their kids and Nanny in coach.

Wow, that certainly explains the rabid selfishness and greed in the current crop of lucky sperm club winners. Their parents knew the kids were disruptive, obnoxious and rude. Their solution? Not provide them with discipline, not try to teach them social graces. No, their solution is to stuff them back with the peasants and let them deal with it.

The uber rich just can't be bothered even by their own children. I can just see Barbara Bush doing this (before the bushes became president).

[saras]

27. The obvious solution - kick the kids and nanny off the plane, and don't tell the parents

Separate people, separate planes, why should the airline get involved in how this family runs its business? It IS the airlines' responsibility, though, to remove people who can't behave appropriately from the plane.

[roguevalley]

48. That happened once when we were going to London. Amazing.

[LibDemAlways]

65. When I was a travel agent back in the 80s I was occasionally asked to

book parents in 1st while the kids rode in coach - without a nanny. Must have been a horrendous experience for the other passengers. Some people are just idiots.

[elocs]

15. Understandable, and yes, parents are the problem.

I am all for bringing children of a reasonable age, and 6 would seem to be that, to public places where they may be taught by their parents how to behave appropriately in such places. Instead too many parents seem to believe it is an opportunity to allow their kids to run wild or do whatever they like.

I was once at the movie theater where 3 rows in front of me were a father and his maybe 8 year old son. During the movie the boy was constantly talking out loud to his dad as if they were watching a movie at home. The dad never made any effort to silence the boy or to have him speak in a whisper if needed.

This was interfering with my enjoyment of the movie so I went and asked the man if he could please have his son be quiet and then went back to my seat. A moment later the dad came to my seat and pressed money into my hand to pay for my ticket and then went back to his seat but still allowed his son to talk. I took the money back to him and told him that the point was for him to teach his son how to behave in a movie theater.

Many years ago I took both my nieces and my daughter to the movies when they were about 3 years old and they learned how to behave there. No, they were not perfect, but they were light years better than many of the children I see in public places today.

[eilen]

16. I would think that under 6 would be inappropriate for some restaurants

Under 6 you go to diners and fast food places to teach them. The food can generally be made "to go" fairly quickly if need be and you are not expecting a more adult ambience there. Problem is, most people no longer have "dinner" at a table at home so the kids have no idea for instance that one should ask permission to leave the table when done.

When I was a kid, the kids sat at the kids table in the kitchen for most meals except dinner when we all sat in the dining room with our parents. We were expected to practice our manners at the dinner table. My baby sister was often hauled off to her crib when she got up and started disturbing other family members by pulling on them, trying to climb up on them etc. She was a toddler. She doesn't do that anymore at 38 lol.

We did not go out to eat often... hardly ever. There was a recession and there were 5-8 kids at any one time in the house-- cost prohibitive.

My husband and I had our first 4 anniversary dinners at a diner with our baby boy. It became a tradition after that for ds to join us. He was pretty well behaved at restaurants--stayed in his high chair; but we eat fast and don't linger. Coming prepared with stuff for the kid to do and munch on is important too.

[JCMach1]

17. This is one of those things where 'child friendly' scares me these days

A trip to the Middle-East will show you just how much Americans don't like kids very much...

Here it's an anything goes kids playground with scooters and wheelies in malls, restaurants, wherever...

Probably there is a happen medium somewhere in-between, but the child-haters seriously need to get over themselves.

My worst experiences at restaurants have not been with children, but with obnoxious... usually drunk adults.

[JanMichael]

21. I can't figure out from your post

if you agree with this restaurants policy or not. Are you saying it's better in the mid east because children are allowed to run around more freely?

Wish you would clarify-

[JCMach1]

40. Absolutely disagree...

[JanMichael]

43. so, you would consider people who are happier eating without

being subjected to rude parents and noisy children "child haters?"

That's a little bizarre, don't you think?

[WatsonT]

25. Expecting parents to discipline their kids is not hating children

Also adults can be told they are misbehaving and asked to leave, even arrested if it comes to that.

Doesn't work with kids.

[JCMach1]

42. this isn't about behavior- the Restaurant has banned a whole class of people

namely children...

[JanMichael]

44. This is precisely about behavior. The children are not behaving

because of lack of parenting skills. And, yes...and entire "class" has been banned in a small, privately owned restaurant that you probably never would have even heard of....

so what?

Lots of kid friendly restaurants, parks, etc....what's the problem with having a few places to go without them?

[StarsInHerHair]

68. hey in the mid-east they too ban an entire GENDER, but hey, boy-child friendly

cause I doubt they let little girls run around, they don't let adult women do that over there.

[nadine_mn]

51. the restaurant banned the kids because they can't ban the parents

Maybe you should read the article again or some of the posts. The problem is NOT kids, its the parents who refuse to parent. But a restaurant owner cannot look at one group of parents and say "Yes, you like the type of folks you can discipline and monitor your child's behavior, please come in" or "Nope, sorry you look like parents that allow your children to run around loose in a restaurant, potentially causing harm to servers and annoying other patrons when your child causes someone to trip because you are too busy ignoring your kids."

It is not child hating, it will never be about child hating, and it will always be about PARENTS - parents who refuse or are unable to parent. Kids will be kids, its up to the parents to set limits, leave if the child will not behave, model appropriate behavior, and most importantly pay attention.

[Dappleganger]

58. That's because most parents wouldn't listen.

It's the parents' fault.

[BadtotheboneBob]

18. I absolutely, positively, without-a-doubt...

... support this man's policy. I have a 4 year old grand-daughter that I love dearly, but she can be such a scamp at times (Maybe it's her red hair? Just kidding!). Anyway, at this point I wouldn't take her with me for an evening dinner at a nicer eatery out of respect for the other patrons. Madeleine can be spontaneously silly (never bratty) and in another setting (like my house) it can be endearing, but I'd not subject others to it. (Besides, I sometimes enjoy partaking in the silliness and my dignity would suffer greatly if I did so in a refined place, haha...)

[47of74]

19. Having worked in the resturant industry for several years I like this idea

Parents would let their kids run all over the place, despite the fact that there were employees on the floor carrying tubs full of dirty dishes or pots of HOT coffee. Management never seemed all that willing to do anything about the problem. So kudos to this restaurant owner.

[FLPanhandle]

20. Glad it's working out for him.

Maybe more restaurants will see the business sense of this and do the same thing.

My wife and I did take our daughters to restaurants when they were under 6, but at the first sign of noise, one of us would take the offending child outside. We tag teamed meals on bad days but no way would we disrupt other diners. Too many people just don't care though, so I'm all for the children under 6 banning.

[jerseyjack]

22. NYC, Upper East Side Restaurant --

Kid, about 5, was acting up. Mom asks waiter to reprimand the kid. WTF?

[WatsonT]

26. Did the waiter yell at the kid?

If so that warrants a generous tip.

[saras]

29. Just hope for a waiter with a sense of the theatrical

What warrants the generous tip is the totally over-the-top Freddie Krueger performance by the waiter.

[southernyankeebelle]

23. I can understand that policy. I would go to his establishment to eat in peace

and enjoy the silence from babies. Sometimes for people like me who don't go out much this is relaxing. There is nothing worse than seeing small children acting up and parents not correcting them. I wish they have the same policy at the movies especially at the 9 pm showing.

[WatsonT]

24. Not surprising

parents don't control their kids. It makes dining out miserable for others.

People would probably be willing to pay a bit more for a pleasant dining experience.

[saras]

28. +1000

"What is really fascinating about the email is that those who are in favor are giving these very rational responses and telling us how they would remove their own children at any sign of trouble, but those who are against the policy respond in these monosyllabic rants like 'You jerk.' "

[Irishonly]

30. I can understand it

When my daughter was a toddler we took her to nice restaurants but she was expected to behave. If she didn't one of us would take her outside while the other got the food to go and paid the bill. One time after we were seated another couple asked to be moved but their request wasn't granted. Our daughter behaved beautifully as she did almost all of the time. After the couple finished dinner they came over to us and kept gushing about how wonderful she was.

Another time we went out to dinner to a very family friendly spaghetti place. We were with my bil, sil and niece. We were mortified by my niece's behavior. Her parents thought she was adorable no matter what she did. We didn't go out to dinner with them until my niece started behaving.

[Kitsune]

32. I think more businesses could do with emulating swimming pools.

"Adult swim" - such a simple concept.

I really wish my workplace would do this. Or at least put up a sign out front that says "No longer affiliated with Chuck E. Cheese." A library is not a place to dump hyperactive four year olds and let them terrorize the place.

[saras]

33. I've got to admit I'm not objective...

I'll cut a lot of slack for kids whose parents who are actively working with them, even if the child is obviously a behavior problem.

If the parent is part of the problem, then I have no tolerance. My behavior standards rise to that of civil, competent adult.


Kind of like the universal right-of-way principle: the arrogant do not have the right of way unless the law requires it.

[LARED]

49. That begs the questions as to why, WHY, if you have a kid with

a behavior problem do you go to a restaurant where in all likelihood the kid will act up? Hence ruining your meal and those around you.

[PassingFair]

76. So...when you're on vacation, you should lock them up in their rooms?

If you don't want your meal "ruined" by lifeforms
around you, please stay home.

:eyes:

[JanMichael]

96. no, you get "to go food." Sorry

it's not that hard.

[saras]

101. Because you, as a parent, do not believe that it IS a behavior problem

And it doesn't ruin YOUR meal, it's just normal. As is the fact that others are unfriendly to you and hateful to your kid for no reason - they're just jealous no-good losers.

The parents who actually understand "behavior problem" are the ones who bring their kids out a lot to train them, and remove them instantly as soon as they exhibit an uncontrollable problem.

[BiggJawn]

34. Oh, and how about the displays of mock horror?

S'Yeah, lady, like your kid doesn't act like that at home.
Uh-huh, perfect little angel who only lets their feral side show when you go more than 20 feet away from the non-stop "Barney" videos you have going at home.
Right...

[customerserviceguy]

35. I'd love it if similarly-minded restaurant owners

put up a website to guide me to their businesses. No, not everybody's kid is a problem, but there's at least a very sizable minority that ruins things for everybody else.

[LibDemAlways]

36. About five years ago I posted in the lounge about a

horrific restaurant experience in which I was subjected for twenty minutes or so to a toddler who screamed and threw food, plates, and silverware while his mother paid no attention.

While some posters agreed that the mother should have taken the kid out, others told me I should have stayed home if I didn't like it.

I think keeping small children out of nice restaurants is a fine idea. I'd also like to see restaurant owners become more pro-active about dealing with loud, obnoxious adults. Anyone who ruins the experience of other diners with boorish behavior ought to be called on it.

[dddem]

53. Unless you were at Chuck-E-Cheese,

You had every right to expect to dine in peace.

[LibDemAlways]

64. I agree. I was blown away to read the responses that indicated I

had no right to enjoy my meal. I would have loved to put those people in a similar situation -- dodging food, silverware, and plates while listening to ear piercing screams. Hard to believe anyone would think that was ok.

[dddem]

66. Many years ago we joined friends of my husband for dinner

My daughter was around 2 and their son was around 5. I was absolutely horrified at his behavior. What was worse was that his parents were so amused at his 'antics' - running in front of wait staff with full trays, not staying in his seat, yelling and carrying on like he was in a playground. Not only was I embarassed to be part of that group, I was really concerned that my toddler would want to behave like an animal with him, and I was sincerely afraid someone would get hurt. Suffice it to say, we never went to dinner with this family again.
A few years later, we took my 2 children to a "Fancy Schmancy" (translation - not fast food) restaurant so that my then 5 year old could practice behaving like a big girl for our upcoming vacation. We made a huge deal of being in a real restaurant, and how one should behave, etc. etc. She was so proud of herself until she accidentaly dropped her fork, and in her attempt to quietly retrieve it by herself, went ass over teakettle out of her chair. At that point, all we could do was laugh. Luckily, it was a Monday or Tuesday night, and tere was only 1 or 2 other parties in the place. They're 20 and 16 now, and we thoroughly enjoy taking them out - when they're not too embarassed to be seen with us, that is!

[LibDemAlways]

67. My daughter is now 18. When she was small my husband and I

took turns many times taking her out of restaurants when she became bored or cranky. We never allowed her to bother anyone. I've been with people who weren't so considerate, however, and I agree. It can be embarrassing.

Unfortunately some adults don't know how to behave themselves either. Recently we took a group of 9 out to celebrate my daughter's high school graduation. At the next table an obnoxious drunk guy was loudly telling off color jokes to a group of equally loud friends. It was unpleasant to say the least. Fortunately the manager came over and told him a couple of times to tone it down. I've also recently been stuck in a room with a group of 24 who were celebrating a birthday. They were yelling at each other across the room just trying to be heard. That large of a group belonged in a private room to begin with. When I complained to the manager, he just shrugged his shoulder. Needless to say I won't be going back there.

[somone]

37. Smart businessman

[MilesColtrane]

38. They don't have to ban kids.

Just have UnHappy Meals as the only thing available on the kid's menu.

Liver, brussel sprouts, and tapioca with a Masters of Phenomenology™ action figure free in every box.

[Divernan]

39. Brilliant!

[BadtotheboneBob]

46. Indeed!

But, you forgot to add peas... Lots and lots of peas! haha!

[Divernan]

63. God! I've always hated peas, and never made my kids eat them.

[totodeinhere]

41. I see no problem with this. And now one of his competitors will probably advertise

"kids of all ages welcome." Then we will see who gets more customers.

[L0oniX]

45. The Ihop here has a kids eat free from 4 to 8pm deal. I'll never go there again.

[PassingFair]

50. I hope his stinking restaurant is EMPTY next Mother's Day.

....how does he deal with autistic people?

My nephew makes noises and gets up to leave abruptly
sometimes.

Maybe his parents should just keep him in a cedar closet.
Wouldn't want him to ruin someone's dinner.

:eyes:

[nadine_mn]

52. Wow talk about misreading everything

This is not about children with special needs - the restaurant owner acknowledges its the parents that are the issue.

But also it is one restaurant, a restaurant that has always catered to adults. Kids don't have to go everywhere. It is ok to be somewhere that is kid friendly, and it is ok sometimes to want to be only with adults.

Your extreme example is exactly the kind of knee jerk response that misses the point.

[PassingFair]

54. Right...I've seen the looks on the faces of people when my nephew starts to rock....

I've heard them complain.

I applaud my brother and sister-in-law for bringing
him with the family when they go out.

We're not talking about The Ritz here, this is some
restaurant next door to a driving range.

People that can't hack a little distraction should
be the ones that stay home.

They are welcome to put up the "no kids allowed" sign,
just as I am allowed to tell them to shove it.

[Divernan]

61. It needn't be the Ritz for people to expect a certain level of behavior.

You put this place down as "some restaurant next door to a driving range". This is not a wealthy community. The folks that go to this local restaurant cannot afford the Ritz - that may be the best they can afford. And if your nephew is over the age of 6, your brother and his wife COULD take him to this restaurant.

How old is your nephew? Is rocking the only autistic behavior he exhibits? If so, I agree people should be able to deal with it. However many autistic children have what are referred to as "Challenging Behavior and Tantrums". And those behaviors can be triggered by bringing an autistic child or adult into a strange, crowded, noisy setting.

http://www.brighttots.com/Autistic_behaviors
"Unfortunately for individuals with autism and their families, ‘tantrums’ and destructive behaviors are common,
especially among children. The term ‘challenging behavior’ is a controversial one, but it is intended to suggest that
behaviors present a challenge to professionals and services. This is supposed to prevent internalizing the cause of the
behavior and ‘blaming’ the individual. This is very important in autism, as it is unlikely that any behavior which causes difficulties for families and professionals is intended maliciously or vindictively. There is virtually always some other, unidentified, cause which provokes challenging behavior. It is worth noting that in most cases (although not all)individuals do not enjoy ‘being challenging’. Unfortunately it would appear that the majority of cases of ‘challenging’ behaviors occur by children in the presence of their families. If such behavior is a challenge for professionals then it can have a debilitating impact on parents and siblings. Therefore it’s very important that behaviors are dealt with in way which allows both the secure functioning of the family, and the opportunity for the individual to develop skills and communicate effectively.

Tantrums are one of the most common problems in young children with autism. They may appear to go into a state of
rage, panic, anxiety or fear for no reason at all. Tantrums are normal behavior for most children and there is no reason why children with autism should by-pass this stage of development. The problem seems to be that it is more difficult for parents to prevent ‘tantrums’ in children with autism, the child seems inconsolable during the ‘tantrum’, the episode might last a long time, and the reconciliation that typically accompanies the end of the ‘tantrum’ rarely occurs.

Tantrums are just one example of challenging behavior. Similar episodes of panic, anxiety, rage or even aggression
might be seen all through childhood, adolescence and even adulthood. This might involve screaming, crying, resisting
contact with others, or pushing others away. On the other hand it might be much less obvious, such as refusing to
respond to interaction (especially in learning settings where this might have a destructive effect), using others as
objects and refusing to comply with daily activities. These behaviors are not necessarily ‘challenging’ but in some
cases they might cause disruption (for example to a classroom engaged in a lesson, or a family outing or event."
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
This is a very sensitive and complicated topic. I want to tell you that I have a friend who is past president of the state Autism society (mostly parents of autistic individuals). I have gone to a restaurant with him and his 40 something autistic son, in this same town, Monroeville. The owner is a friend who has an autistic nephew, and understands autistic behavior. Dan takes Eddie there around 3 to 4 p.m. on weekdays and thus avoids lunchtime crowds. Eddie is at ease there. The owner greets Eddie by name and they always have the same table. It works out well. Dan never takes Eddie to crowded, noisy, or new-to-him restaurants because Eddie would be stressed out in those settings. Dan chooses that setting primarily for Eddie's comfort, and they enjoy their meals together at that restaurant. Eddie is 6'2", and muscular. He gets agitated in new places, around crowds of strangers and if people should stare at him. Dan worries that, for example, if they were standing waited to be seated, and someone was seated before them, that Eddie would get angry and try to push ahead, saying "It's MY turn." It could get ugly fast, and if Eddie lost his temper, the police would be called, and the police are not trained to understand autistic behavior.

As to your nephew, if he's only rocking in his seat, that's not disruptive. People can mind their own business and ignore him. But if he should have a temper tantrum, I think it's fair to say that the behavior reflects anxiety or fear triggered by the environment in the restaurant and in the child's best interest, he should be removed from the restaurant by one of his parents just like any other child.

[tabasco]

62. You don't have to patronize this restaurant.

Ain't that great!

[WatsonT]

70. So no one has a right to enjoy their meal?

Obviously 99% of the problem kids are not autistic. So this isn't aimed at them.

But your response is indicative of the problem: This affects ME! Who cares about the experiences of 100 other people, ME ME ME!

[PassingFair]

73. I went out to a crowded Mexican Restaurant last night. There were lots of kids there...

some cried off and on. Some wanted to be picked up
and walked around the restaurant. Some fell asleep
in their highchairs...

I still was able to enjoy my meal!

Imagine!

Even with LIFE going on around me!

Crazy!!

:eyes:

[WatsonT]

80. Most people are not so happy with screaming children running around and causing trouble

Why do their concerns mean nothing but yours are tantamount?

Given the communities response it would seem the majority of people are fed up with parents not disciplining their brats in public areas and are perfectly willing to go to a place that bans them for some peace and quiet.

So why do you think the opinion of the majority should be subservient to the will of a tiny minority?

If these adults were going to chuck e cheese and complaining about all the kids I'd tell them to quit whining. That is a place obviously catering to children.

But if we can have places that cater to children rather than adults why can't we have other places that cater to adults but not children? It's not like kids are picking up the tab anyway.

You feel it is fine for parents to disrupt, annoy, and harass non-parents with their kids. Obviously most people do not agree. Let's give them a say in this one place. And take the kids somewhere else.

[PassingFair]

85. 80% of human women reproduce, so YES, my concerns are at least TANTAMOUNT to yours.

That business would NOT get any patronage from me on "Mother's Day".

And you MIGHT want to look up the word "tantamount"...

I do not think it means what you think it means.

[WatsonT]

87. So don't go there

it seems the people who dislike this are outnumbered.

And most parents aren't to blame. This is an entitled American issue. Most of the rest of the world doesn't tolerate this behavior from their kids. So it's considerably less than 80% of the women in the world. Which even if you were speaking for 80% of all women that's less than half the population. So again, majority rules.

/paramount not tantamount, my bad.

[PassingFair]

89. Yes, one thread on DU proves that most people would like children to be BANNED from restaurants.

:crazy:

Enjoy your disturbance-free life.

I have a notion that many things disturb you.
I hope you can filter most of them out, so you
don't have to outright ban them.

[WatsonT]

94. No, the overwhelming community support and financial success of this company

proves that there is a niche for enjoyable dining.

/how is it liberal to argue that your needs outweigh the needs of everyone else? That something which inconveniences you slightly to the benefit of hundreds of other people is unacceptable because your needs come first, last and only? "I've got mine, screw everyone else" seems like the philosophy of a different party . . .

[LanternWaste]

79. Is there indeed a right to enjoy one's meal?

Is there indeed a right to enjoy one's meal, or is it merely an expectation of personal convenience?

[WatsonT]

84. Perhaps right was not the best word

it's not in the constitution or anything.

But having that expectation when you pay extra to eat at a nice joint is perfectly reasonable. And if the atmosphere doesn't suit you why bother? Just eat at home or a fast food joint.

So it is reasonable to expect that if you are paying more for a nice meal out that you can enjoy it.

[bitchkitty]

55. Great idea!

I don't hate kids, but I sure do hate parents that won't control or teach their kids. I worked as a server for various fern bar chains for 8 years, and have seen it all. Some kids are dangerous in a restaurant. Their parents won't parent, and that's sad. When you're trying to maneuver through a crowded restaurant with plates stacked up your arms and a little kid runs smack into your legs...

I think some people know how to manage their kids, but many don't. Half the time the screaming fits could easily have been avoided. One mother used to come in during a busy lunch shift with her 4 year old, who would be happy and giggling until the mother got to work on her:

Me: And what will the young lady have?
Child: I want chicken fingers and applesauce!
Mother: Are you sure? Look, they have little hamburgers!
Child: I want chicken fingers and applesauce!
Mother: Oh, but sweetie, you always get that. (to me) Bring her a kiddy hamburger with fries.
Child: I WANT CHICKEN FINGERS!!!! I WANT CHICKEN FINGERS!!!! I WANT CHICKEN FINGERS!!!!!! WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!
Mother: Oh, okay baby. You can have chicken fingers.

I'm not saying that all parents deliberately whip their child into a frenzy over chicken fingers. But many, many parents seem to think that the rest of us have to accept that they don't have a handle on their kids, and because they have grown deaf to the screaming and brattiness and blind to the bad behavior, we should understand and accomodate them.

Of course, you realize that I am the supreme authority on child rearing, having none of my own. My mother never stood for any outbursts, she'd take us to the restroom and beat us with her purse. It didn't work. To this day I misbehave in restaurants. ;)

[Dappleganger]

56. Good for him.

As a parent to four kids I support this measure. It really is impossible to ask parents nicely to do anything with their unruly children these days, so if you want some peace in your place this is what needs to happen.

[LetTimmySmoke]

59. This is another example of the few ruining it for the many.

In my experience, most young kids are all right and most parents either have the foresight to control their kids or leave them with a sitter. My parents did both. But there are just enough entitled obnoxious types out there to have to have the ban.

[Cal Carpenter]

97. Ruining what?

It's *one restaurant*, not a constitutional amendment.

[U4ikLefty]

98. another one

[Cal Carpenter]

99. Another what?

Unclear what you mean.

[Pooka Fey]

60. Bravo.

[christx30]

69. I have two children

A 5 year old with mild autism and a 3 year old that is a terror in public. I don't consider going out to dinner to be a good investment because with the amount of running around I have to do, I use up any nutrients just dealing with them. There are places that I don't go any more because my kids will not act right there. My kids are loud and will not stay in their seats at all, no matter if I hold them there or whatever. I can just imagine how it is for the other people near us as I'm angrily whispering at Lily or trying to get Nathan to stay in his seat. One time she knocked her milk off the table. And while I was cleaning it up (knelt under her seat picking up the milk) she knocked her entire plate down, shattering it, missing my head by inches. We paid the bill 60 seconds after that and left and did not go back.
I can only imagine what it is like for people to be eating around us. I support this guy's policy wholeheartedly. There needs to be a place where people can pay for a good meal, and not have kids ruining it.

[Bill McBlueState]

71. Wait, wait, wait

All this publicity because this guy *says* his business is up? Has anyone checked that claim? I'm no businessman, but in my field, we need better evidence than the assertion of some guy with a personal interest in the result.

[Bill McBlueState]

72. and even if business *is* up,

Maybe the weather was nice in the Pittsburgh area last week, 20% more people went to the driving range, and the usual fraction of them got dinner afterwards.

[FLPanhandle]

75. Businessmen usually don't continue policies that reduce their profits.

The fact he implemented the policy and kept it, means either he is doing to make more money or he's not a good businessman.

[Bill McBlueState]

92. agreed, it could be either. n/t

[WatsonT]

81. He probably hates kids so much he's willing to lose money just to keep them out!

It's a conspiracy. All these businessmen, intentionally running themselves out of business just to pick on poor innocent kids who never misbehaved or uttered a peep.

[Bill McBlueState]

93. that could be true

I mean, it probably isn't, but I think we can all agree that it makes sense to objectively evaluate the claims people make instead of taking them at face value.

There are lots of reasons the guy's business could have ticked up for a week, assuming it actually did. Maybe there was good weather and spillover business from the adjacent driving range gave him some customers. Maybe he had a really good prime rib special.

[JVS]

100. This publicity is great.

My family lives a few miles from this place, but it's not really in a busy part of town. I never noticed it before, now everyone on FB is posting the articles.

[LanternWaste]

74. I imagine tolerance...

I imagine lack of tolerance for the natural inclination of children and toddlers illustrates that many of us merely wear a rather thin patina of sympathy, altruism and patience when it negatively affects our own personal definitions of enjoyment and convenience.

[WatsonT]

82. There's a difference

the behavior of children has been a problem mostly in recent years. These stories didn't crop up generations ago because parents either wouldn't bring their kids out with them or would discipline then when they did act up. The children haven't changed, the parents have. Meaning this isn't simply normal kid behavior but a failure in parents of this generation to properly raise them.

Since this guy just owns a restaurant he really can't fix the parents, but he can eliminate the symptom.


If you fly in to a rage because some kid starts crying at dinner and the parents discretely and quickly move him outside to finish crying then you're an asshole.

If you get annoyed because the parents laugh as the kid repeatedly throws food at your head and screams his head off the entire time you are out and they make no effort to correct the situation, then you are a normal person.

Note: most countries have children, but it's only really an issue here. I haven't seen this problem in Chinese restaurants (meaning in the actual country not that cuisine) or in european cafes.

Either our kids are radically different than theirs or we have different parenting styles.

[LanternWaste]

88. I was not passing judgement on any one person or culture...

I was not passing judgement on any one person or culture... merely making the observation that oft times our proclamations of tolerance are just that-- proclamations.

I quite understand that many people wish to hear only noises that are pleasing to their own ears and allow themselves annoyance at sounds they do not personally like and consider that "normal."

And, though I may have traveled less than you, my own anecdotal experiences in Europe, east Asia and Central America are contrary to your anecdotal experience. :shrug:

[davsand]

77. Our daughter was not taken to "fine" restaurants when she was little.

Frankly, I kind of figured that it was expecting too much of little kid to sit perfectly for any long period of time. Little kids are high energy--it is their job. Plus, if I am being completely honest, it just didn't sound like much fun to have to worry that my kid would be willing or able to behave in a way that was compatible with fine dining. When we went out, we went to places that were kid friendly or to family places where she could learn what behavior is acceptable without ruining somebody's meal.

I have been places where kids were allowed to run unchecked and it really does make for an unpleasant meal for everyone around them. I once saw a waitperson drop an entire tray of hot food when a rampaging kid ran into her. Bless her heart, that lady made a herculean effort to protect that kid from hot food. I dunno what the kid's parents did, but we tipped the server heavily and spoke to the manager about how good she was. I observed it happening because it was our order that got dumped when the bratty kid ran full tilt into our server's legs. We waited longer to get food because our dinner had to be made again, and those parents never once spoke to us to say sorry, bummer dude, or kiss my ass...

YMMV, but I am fine with kid free places and I am parent.



Laura

[truthisfreedom]

78. Here's what's contributed the most to these problems:

The birth rate in the US has exploded and is now above the peak birth rate of the last century. 6 years ago (think of kids aged 1-6) was when it peaked out vs 1960, so we have a lot of inexperienced parents out there who really didn't think about what it would be like to have kids before they took the plunge. It's trendy to have a child now... not something that people necessarily do after some serious soul-searching. Hence a bunch of ill-mannered children.

[harun]

95. I am amazed and frightened how I see kids being brought up now.

I was thinking maybe I had a strange childhood. Where my parents actually reacted when I was being a little monster or did things wrong.

At my friends the other day a young child was throwing things around the kitchen and slamming his oven door open and shut as hard as he could. When he told the parents "Could you check that, he might hurt himself". The parents, annoyed said in a very quiet voice, so clearly the kid in the other room couldn't hear "Please stop that" and went on about their business.

I see this from most parents I am around now. They won't even raise their voice to their children much less inconvenience them by actually telling them to stop a bad behavior.

Hence the restaurant policy is not surprising. Not the children's fault, the parents just don't have a clue.

[apnu]

83. I have a 5 year old and have zero problem with this.

My kid isn't allowed to act out in public, and he's very antsy. When he does we leave and he knows he's the reason why we're leaving. We also take the time to judge if he's having a good day or a bad day with his activity and adjust our plans accordingly. Maybe we go somewhere else that is more tolerant of kids running about, or maybe we just don't go out at all. We try to work out what's best for the whole family and not force our kid into whatever schedule we want, but having said that he loses control sometimes and we have to leave. That's what having kids is about, and that's what growing up is about -- learning control.

We know this makes us the exception to the rule and are appalled by the display of bad parenting going on around us all the time.

I think the restaurant owner is within his rights to deny anyone service to his private establishment provided the policy is fair and equal to all. I also think its OK to draw the line at accepting families and have an "adults only" establishment. Just clearly post it on the door and nobody has a right to bitch. If they don't like it, they can give the place the finger and go elsewhere. I guarantee McDonalds will take any size family at any volume regardless of how ill behaved the kids may be. And I'm willing to bet there are other restaurants in Monroeville also willing to take large clans of unruly animals.

[BigDemVoter]

86. I have a niece and two nephews. . .

And all 3 of them are the biggest BRATS I've ever met. . . I would prefer they NOT be in any restaurant in which I'm eating, and they've managed to color my views on ALL children, be that unfair or not. . .

[newportdadde]

90. As a 34 year old father of 4 young boys I think its related to smart phones and lack of grandparents

My first reaction was to not like this owner as a parent, but I've been on the other side as well trying to have a meal and there are some lousy parents out there. My wife and I run a very tight ship, have to with 4 so young and close in age(twins), we go out twice a year with the kids on Sundays early before the lunch crowd at a low key place. They do well, I'm proud of them.

My theory though is this is related mainly to the damn 'smart phones' everyone has, and how they are CONSTANTLY on them, texting, updating facebook etc, my generation and those younger then me are obsessed with them. Their kids are out there playing by themselves on the playground, swimming whatever and mom and dad is just typing with their thumbs like mad. I just think it takes the parent out of what is going on around them, they zone out.

My other observation is a lower number of grandparents being involved with the grandkids. Being available to babysit etc, now there are still quite a few but a lot of the boomers retiring now are snowbirds or off doing their own thing. Must be nice to be the last generation with at least some chance of a pension. It is funny to me because I know that the parents of my wife and I used the help of our grandparents a LOT, watching kids while they worked late etc. Now that our parents are the grandparents they are off, asking them to watch a kid for an hour is liking asking for a kidney. I think a lot of us raising young families are finding ourselves out there alone and on our own, makes things like babysitting more challenging so you find yourselves tempted to bring the kids with you more.

[OnlinePoker]

91. If he tried this in Canada, he would be sued under human rights provisions of our Charter of Rights

He would probably lose. Recently, a customer on Air Canada won $12,000 because he wasn't served in French and received a Sprite instead of 7-Up.