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jakeXT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-05-11 01:37 PM
Original message
NATO says must address weaknesses exposed by Libya
Source: Reuters

BRUSSELS, Sept 5 (Reuters) - NATO may have managed to do its job in Libya but the operation there has exposed weaknesses in capabilities of non-U.S. allies that need to be addressed, the head of NATO said on Monday.

The mission, led for the first time by European NATO allies and Canada rather than the United States, could not have been carried out without U.S. support, Anders Fogh Rasmussen said.

"This mission could not have been done without capabilities which only the United States can offer," the NATO secretary general told a news conference. "For example: drones, intelligence and refuelling aircraft."

"More allies should be willing to obtain them. That is a real challenge."

Read more: http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFLDE7840JJ20110905



I have the impression NATO preferred to "train" with real targets, instead of just imaginary ones like in their "Southern Mistral" war game.


War Plans for Libya Encouraged Choice of War Over Other Approaches

By davidswanson - Posted on 28 March 2011

By Dennis J Kucinich, The Guardian

On November 2, 2010 France and Great Britain signed a mutual defence treaty , which included joint participation in "Southern Mistral" (www.southern-mistral.cdaoa.fr), a series of war games outlined in the bilateral agreement. Southern Mistral involved a long-range conventional air attack, called Southern Storm, against a dictatorship in a fictitious southern country called Southland. The joint military air strike was authorised by a pretend United Nations Security Council Resolution. The "Composite Air Operations" were planned for the period of 21-25 March, 2011. On 20 March, 2011, the United States joined France and Great Britain in an air attack against Gaddafi's Libya, pursuant to UN Security Council resolution 1973.
http://warisacrime.org/content/war-plans-libya-encouraged-choice-war-over-other-approaches


Still, for an attack on the big guys it's too early, only the crazy ones would suggest that.


US Senator and former presidential candidate John McCain has lashed out at Russia, saying it could be the next country to experience a Libya-style uprising.

But Senator McCain has a very far-fetched outlook, believes RT's Washington correspondent Gayane Chichikyan.

McCain is sure that the Arab Spring will rage on and will make it to countries like China and Russia, which according to him “need democracy” just as Libya does.

http://rt.com/news/russia-democracy-senator-mccain-091/


But the future is stil young...

NATO Partnership in Libya Serves as Model, Panetta Says

MONTEREY, California,
Aug 24, 2011 — Defense Secretary Leon E. Panetta today called U.S. support for the NATO mission that's helping opposition forces make progress against Moammar Qadhafi's regime Libya an example of the international cooperation that will be critical in the future.

"It is a good indication of the kind of partnership and alliances that we need to have for the future if we are going to deal with the threats that we confront in today's world," Panetta told students during addresses at both the Naval Postgraduate School and Defense Language Institute Foreign Language Center.

..
http://www.africom.mil/getArticle.asp?art=7109&lang=0

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tcaudilllg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-05-11 02:23 PM
Response to Original message
1. The next uprising
will be in the United States.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-05-11 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. No, this revolt is driven by the increase in food and fuel, things less noticeable in the US
Less noticeable in terms of how it affects how people live. You tend to react to an increase in food, when it is close to 100% of your income as oppose to about 10% of the income food represent among US households.

USDA report that US households spend less then 10% of disposable income on food:
http://www.ers.usda.gov/AmberWaves/September08/Findings/PercentofIncome.htm

In Egypt the income of the poorest elements is quite low, it is 90th country on income inequity (The US, the worse in the developed world is 42nd). 20% of its population live below the poverty line (The US holds to about 12%). 32% of the population is tied in in farming (In Comparison less the .7 percent of the US Population are farmers). Please note the CIA admits "rich" Countries set a higher level for poverty then "poor" countries, but the CIA Fact book uses each countries own definitions. Thus 20% for Egypt much worse then a 20% in the US (and the US poverty rate is only 12%). Gross Domestic Product (GDP) per capital is $6200 in Egypt, $47, 000 in the US. In simple terms the AVERAGE GDP for Egypt is $4000 below the official poverty line for the US of $10,800 for one person.

From CIA Fact book:
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/eg.html

2011 Poverty level
http://www.coverageforall.org/pdf/FHCE_FedPovertyLevel.pdf:

18.5% of the Egyptian population live on less then $2 dollars a day ($700 a year). Through less then 2% of the population lives on less then $1.25 a day, the "Official" international definition of poverty.

Given this low level of income, any increase in food, for whatever reason, will lead to such low income people demanding change so they can earn more money OR the price of food to drop. The recent increase in world wide food prices have driven this group to become more disparate, so that the fear by being killed is now a minor fear compared to seeing their wives and children starving to death.

Thus the price of food is what is driving the revolts in the Islamic World (I have to exclude Libya, for its income was close to Western Europe, thus for the revolt to succeed, NATO had to intervene).

Sidenote: Could the "revolt" in Libya be part of a NATO plot to have a base from which they could attack Egypt, if Egypt's revolution went to far? Libyan oil was never a good excuse, whoever ruled Libya would sell the oil. Something else is kicking in, and it could be fears of a Egypt controlled by The Moslem Brotherhood. With Libya, Egypt could be attacked from two sides making it harder for Egypt to hold onto Cairo and the rest of Lower Egypt from a Military attack from Israel and Libya (And Israel may NOT want to participate in such an invasion, occupying Egypt should be an Israeli nightmare not a goal).

The same results can be seen in Qatar and Syria, food prices goes up, revolts break out. Lets also note that the Egyptian, Qatar and Syrian revolts are more like a Marxist/Leninist revolt as oppose to a traditional coup or mass peasant revolt (A mass peasant revolt is how Mao and the Communists of China took over China, not a urban working poor revolt, as occurred in Egypt, Qatar and Syria (Through Syria may just be a tribal fight that was taken to actual fighting do to the pressure caused by the increase in food prices).

Lets not forget what Lenin and Marx saw in a worker's revolt, the revolt is a demand for change and without someone taking charge of it, such revolts fail. Thus the key for such revolts is to have a dedicated group (Lenin told his follows to be like the Jesuits when it came to unity and purpose, Lenin said he could take over a country with just 5% of the population during such a revolt, for then he could lead the revolt in a direction when what Lenin thought the country should go would go). The key is to have a dedicated group ready willing and able to take charge of the revolt and put themselves in power as the representatives of the people in revolt. Right now, the communists are NOT capable of providing such leadership anywhere in the world, but the Moslem Brotherhood and their allies in Sunni countries are more then capable. This is the big fear in Western Capitals, not Qaddafi and his followers, but the Moslem Brotherhood in Egypt and that the Moslem Brotherhood is in the position to take over the Government of Egypt do to the revolt caused by the people demanding food.

Just pointing out that the revolts will go on in those countries with the least income to its poorest citizens. Those poor are facing starving to death. In such a situation the fear of being shot disappears. With that disappearance rule by fear fails. The US is no where near such a situation, thus you will see more such revolts throughout the Middle East, mostly among allies of the US. Even in a semi-democracy like Iran, the needs of the Poor will be heard and addressed, but not among the dictators that are most US allies in the region. The social groups in those nations support the dictator for the simple reason, such dictators do what they can to aid those groups, even at the expense of the poor and the country as a whole. The recent continuing increase in price is the tender that is ready to be set off. The price increases in food will lead to revolts, revolts that sooner or later the dictators will NOT be able to suppress. What is needed is a reduction in the price of food (And no one is doing anything in that regards, look at the corn to oil program, designed to make food into oil, at the cost of less food and thus higher prices for food). No wants to address this problem for it is tied in with the price of oil. No one wants to say the price of oil is to LOW. Thus we are facing some hard times not only for ourselves but for out middle east allies.









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tcaudilllg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-05-11 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. It doesn't follow
Why does a reduction in corn sales equal an increase in the price of food? What is the standard by which the price is gauged?

Food surpluses are enormous... no reason for prices to increase. Still, no reason for people to go hungry.

It seems to me that market speculation is the root of the whole mess. I can't help but believe there must be some collusion going on somewhere. Maybe not the entire market, but even a fraction would have tangible effect.

At the end of the day, the western Right is just getting too good a deal out of all this for there not to be some kind of concerted action in the marketplace. And of course conservative bankers don't fraternize with liberal bankers the way they do each other. (although bankers are mostly business centric personalities and as such, are less bothered by personal features and emotions than the population at large).
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-05-11 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Why the price of food is going up is a minor concern AS TO REVOLUTIONS
My point was the Egyptian Revolution was driven more by the recent jump in the price of food more then any other single factor. Why the price increase is unimportant in terms of why Egypt revolted, Egypt revolted do to the price increase.

Now, there are ways for the price of Corn and other grains to drop in price, but no one is even trying to implement those policies so whether the cause of the increase is do to natural causes OR market manipulation is unimportant. The problem is the price increase NOT why it increase. That is why I point out the price increase of food is the single most important factor is the Egypt Revolution and is causing problems elsewhere in the world. All of these places would revolt while before the US, thus why the next revolution will be somewhere else then the US.
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tcaudilllg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-06-11 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. I don't disagree with you on that.
However my point again: the western Right, championed by Murdock and his buddies all over the Western biz community, is obtaining absolute victory over all its enemies by this move. It's a wave of lawful evil all throughout the NATO block and spilling over into Arabia. The conservatives want to see the socialist Arab regimes fall, and that's exactly what's happening. The reason for the price of food rising is important because we need to identify the obstacles to its falling, and remove them. We need to elevate those who will implement the necessary policy changes. Until this happens pressure on the left will remain.

You can't get through to the Right anymore. The center right is besieged by bullies and unable to act. What's left is the Tea Party. I hate to say it, but Obama's fixation on getting re-elected is apparently the biggest obstacle the left has at this point. Personally I think the White House strategists, many of whom I suspect are insane, believe the Tea Party in the best interest of the White House. And if this were not true, we would see more coordinated action on their part with big labor. I personally think Obama is just about to crumple under the pressure, and his unwillingness to put the country above his personal and professional relationships. That is what is destroying his presidency.
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-05-11 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. No way - we are no where close to such a thing. nt
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classysassy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-06-11 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #1
9. The western criminals attack on the Arabs
Why not call it what it is a racist attack on the Muslims/Arabs.
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tcaudilllg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-06-11 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. Lack of familiarity with racial discrimination.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-06-11 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #1
11. Uprising? Most of us can barely be arsed to demonstrate now and again.
Edited on Tue Sep-06-11 01:10 AM by No Elephants
And a percentage of us believes everything is either the best in the world, or at least as good as it realistically can be given {insert rationalizations of choice here}.

Speaking of demonstrations, October 6, 2011 in Freedom Square, Washington, D.C.

Pick one or more of these options:
Go, or donate, or hold a local solidarity event, or help get the word out.


http://october2011.org/welcome
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bongbong Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-05-11 04:05 PM
Response to Original message
2. The "weakness"
The weakness is nothing that can't be solved by spending trillions more on works-only-10%-of-the-time military hardware manufactured in the good old MSA (Military States of America)
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Fool Count Donating Member (878 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-05-11 04:55 PM
Response to Original message
3. Here is one sure way to address all NATO's weaknesses -
dissolve already.
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-05-11 07:23 PM
Response to Original message
5. The major weakness of NATO appears to be its tendenct to lie
For example, take sides in civil wars under the pretext of protecting civilians.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-06-11 12:58 AM
Response to Original message
10. Wasn't making NATO bigger another of the DLC's goals/recommendations?
Edited on Tue Sep-06-11 01:16 AM by No Elephants
For example, here's an essay by Will Marshall, cco-founder of the DLC, signer of the PNAC memo, and, later, founder and head of the Progressive Policy Institute:

http://www.dlc.org/ndol_ci.cfm?contentid=254815&kaid=450020&subid=900203
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tcaudilllg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-06-11 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. Need to create the foundations
for an anti-DLC org.
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