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hue Donating Member (571 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-11 08:28 AM
Original message
New emotion detector can see when we're lying
Source: BBC News

"A sophisticated new camera system can detect lies just by watching our faces as we talk, experts say.

The computerised system uses a simple video camera, a high-resolution thermal imaging sensor and a suite of algorithms.

Researchers say the system could be a powerful aid to security services.

It successfully discriminates between truth and lies in about two-thirds of cases, said lead researcher Professor Hassan Ugail from Bradford University."

Read more: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-14900800



Although this device is accurate in about 2/3rds of cases this technology will evolve. Hopefully this will be used in political debates and legislative sessions some day!
Mothers' ability to identify truth from lies is what about 99.9% accuracy.
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SpiralHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-11 08:29 AM
Response to Original message
1. How do we know what you WRITE is true, Hue?
Edited on Tue Sep-13-11 08:32 AM by SpiralHawk
We gonna have to hook your post up to the TruthENator.
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hue Donating Member (571 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-11 08:44 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Looks like fun!! I'm game!!
In fact my own sons built something like that once! :-)
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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-11 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #3
19. If I were you, I'd establish a safety word first :)
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-11 08:43 AM
Response to Original message
2. Yet the most dangerous spreading of untruths would continue
Those untruths being lies which are believed and then retold. Consider the impacts of just 2 of these sorts of untruth...

Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction...

Global warming resulting from human activity is a myth...


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TheMadMonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-11 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #2
18. Biggest lie of all: God's got your back. But only if you believe. /nt
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-11 08:44 AM
Response to Original message
4. Inaccurate in 1/3 of instances = very dangerous.
Body language experts can do this pretty well without equipment, though they are not 100% reliable either.

And the same people who can fool lie detectors can probably fool both these cameras and body language experts.
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Gormy Cuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-11 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Just like drug tests. A lot of innocent bycatch and some of the worst offenders know how to game it.
The picture is even bleaker when one considers how as the technology improves and becomes cheaper to implement it will be used widely -- I can see it being adopted by employers, for example.
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UnrepentantLiberal Donating Member (747 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-11 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #4
13. "It's not a lie if you believe it."
- George Costanza
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truth2power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-11 08:52 AM
Response to Original message
5. Turn it on Cheney and ask if he helped plan 9/11. eom
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iamtechus Donating Member (868 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-14-11 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #5
35. Videos of Cheney could be used to calibrate it.
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Jim__ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-11 09:02 AM
Response to Original message
7. "In a real, high-stress situation, we might get an even higher success rate," noted Professor Ugail
Of course, it might actually be lower, eh professor?
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IdahoRobbie Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-11 09:27 AM
Response to Original message
8. Wow
Will this be available at the next republican debate?

What? We don't need it.

They are always lying.
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ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-11 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #8
23. How about we have all politicians stand in front of it whenever
they give a public announcement or speech? That would truly revolutionize politics.

And judges should be required to be in front of one of those when they give verdicts do. Too much of our criminal justice system is based on prejudices and protecting moneyed interests instead of actually delivering justice.
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RC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-11 09:35 AM
Response to Original message
9. This suffers from the exact same problem all lie detectors do.
Sociopaths do not react when lying as normal people do.
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hue Donating Member (571 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-11 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. yes that would be an interesting study!! n/t
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Archae Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-11 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #9
28. Polygraphs are not lie detectors.
They are nervousness detectors.

And they are as reliable as Tarot Cards.
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-11 09:50 AM
Response to Original message
10. So, it gets it wrong a third of the time.
Most unreliable, it seems to me. I'm afraid I couldn't rely on something that dysfunctional. Think of a car that only starts two-thirds of the time. A guy would probably take it in for repairs, I'd think.
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saras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-11 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #10
17. More accurate would be a car that always starts, but only STOPS two-thirds of the time
Edited on Tue Sep-13-11 10:47 AM by saras
You'd be really lucky if you were able to drive it in to get repairs and survived the drive.
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-11 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #17
21. That is a better example. Thanks. nt
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Devil_Fish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-14-11 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #10
42. Or a country that votes for the wrong guy for president 1/3rd of the time....NT
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evilkumquat Donating Member (363 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-11 10:18 AM
Response to Original message
12. Sounds like another 4th Amendment attack brewing
If this works, it won't be long until we surrender even more rights to feel "safe".
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JustABozoOnThisBus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-14-11 06:00 AM
Response to Reply #12
37. Hey, if you're not doing anything wrong, what's your problem?
And, as long as we're standing here chatting, do you mind if I search your trunk?

:hi:
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DaveJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-11 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
14. False readings really concern me
Operators will probably believe the machine over the people, and if people's physiology don't match what the machine expects, then they will claim there is something wrong with the person. Pharmaceutical companies will then create drugs to make people behave in a way that conforms to what the machine expects. Just another way to force people to become automatons.
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madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-11 10:40 AM
Response to Original message
15. Even us old step dads has a pretty good gut feeling for the truth too.
Come to think of it I think most sane people who pay any semblance of attention can tell the difference between a truth and a lie
I have no time for lies, would rather be alone as with someone who will lie to me about anything.
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saras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-11 10:45 AM
Response to Original message
16. It's going to fucking explode the first time it looks at a neocon
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-11 11:10 AM
Response to Original message
20. So it is slightly better than random guessing, big deal. nt
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go west young man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-11 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
22. Let's use it on leaders in government. Maybe then we would
have some truth in policy.
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enlightenment Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-11 11:42 AM
Response to Original message
24. The thermal imaging is rife with problems.
If it is reliant on an algorithm to determine 'normal', it will catch a lot of people it shouldn't - people who blush easily; women of a certain age (peri-menopause and menopause); etc.

Real humans would do a much better job, assuming they are trained and good at it. How can a machine tell the difference between a blush or a hot flash and a lie? Those things may not differ to much in physiological response, but they definitely differ in context.
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librechik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-11 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
25. standing in line at the airport will get a little easier
and a little more dangerous to our privacy
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barbtries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-11 12:07 PM
Response to Original message
26. two thirds is not good enough.
not even close to good enough.
as a mother i think my percentage is well below 99.9%, but then how would i know? lol
i do know that my mother used to tell me she knew when i was lying and yet i know for a fact she did NOT always know.
with at least one of my kids though, if i ask the question right, he won't even bother.
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intaglio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-11 12:11 PM
Response to Original message
27. There is no such thing as a lie detector
but if you truly believe this arrant nonsense there is a bridge I want to sell you.

Begin at the beginning; what is a lie and how does it affect us physiologically? Do all lies have the same effects?

Then ask yourself if a sociopath or a psychopath would be affected in the same way? Would people with borderline or functional pathologies be so affected? What about someone who had convinced themselves that their version of events was true? Or had become paralysed? What of a Zen master with partial control of their autonomic nervous system?
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leftyladyfrommo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-11 12:14 PM
Response to Original message
29. Yes! And next: what you are thinking!
I hate all of this stuff. Cameras everywhere. Hacking, listening in on phone calls.

Doesn't this scare you people? I think it really should.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-11 12:14 PM
Response to Original message
30. That's an interesting toy
It's nowhere near reliable enough to be of any practical use, other than for entertainment purposes.

Mothers' ability to identify truth from lies is what about 99.9% accuracy.

Oddly enough, women whose children have been accused of horrible crimes often seem to believe that their offspring are incapable of wrongdoing.
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SoapBox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-11 12:23 PM
Response to Original message
31. My employer will probably race to get one of these...
NutJob, psycho customers, that complain and lie about various situations...and who is ALWAYS right? The customer.

No matter what, if push comes to shove, the company will say that it was your "demeanor" that "offended" the customer.

...always the pat answer.
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valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-11 12:43 PM
Response to Original message
32. Use it on our pols. nt
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Juche Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-11 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
33. I hope it isn't like audio/video recordings
Edited on Tue Sep-13-11 01:14 PM by Juche
ie, the police are allowed to do it to us but if we do it to them we can be arrested depending on where we live. This technology shouldn't be monopolized by the state, but I'm sure they will try.

FWIW, the destruction of privacy sucks.
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-11 10:50 PM
Response to Original message
34. Any Politician Worth His Salt Will be Able to Fool It
They'll probably use these machines themselves to practice faking sincerity, which is the primary job requirement for a politician.

Meanwhile, the geeky Aspie types will be flagged as "lying" all the time by machines like these, because they give off all the wrong cues all the time.

No, this won't get better as the technology "improves", it will get worse because the technology will become pervasive.
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Johnson20 Donating Member (78 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-14-11 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #34
39. LOL n/t
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-14-11 05:52 AM
Response to Original message
36. I predict severe penalties for pointing this thing at a politician or official..
And I wish I was being entirely facetious.

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Bandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-14-11 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #36
38. I'm pretty sure they wouldn't do that because they know if they pointed it at a politician
it would break.
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-14-11 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #38
41. Well, "severe penalties" could be seen to include shrapnel from an exploded machine..
So yeah, I see your point.. ;)
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-14-11 12:05 PM
Response to Original message
40. The old Dunking test had a 90% success rate.....
What I mean by the "old Dunking test" is the test to see if someone was lying (It was also used to test if someone was a witch). If you were "accepted" by the water, you were telling the truth (Or God had Forgiven you for the lie or for practicing witchcraft, which in the middle ages was grounds for charges to be dismissed). If you floated, you had neither been forgiven for the lie AND you had lied.

In over 90% of the cases, the subject to the test sunk, and thus was accepted by the water i.e. ruled INNOCENT of the charge. While the dunking test is often accused of being a false test, i.e. you floated and thus be convicted or you drowned if you were innocent, in reality no one was permitted to drown, all that was needed is for you to sink. If a person is round up in a ball shape so he or she can NOT breath in much air, you will almost always sink.

My favorite story was about the Bishop who agreed to the test, but in the week before the actual test, he per-tested himself and every time he sunk during all of the pre-tests. In the actual test he actually floated for the first time. He then had to admit his guilt (For he was guilty of the Charge, he did the crime, which had to do with lying to the king about money owned to the King). People have speculated on the results, why did he float on the day of the actual test? Apparently he took in to deep a breath, thus he had air in his system that made him float. The question is why so much air on that day, as opposed to the other day? The argument is that he was so nervous in the day of the test he took in more air then on the pre-test days and thus had enough air to float.

Back to the main topic, the float test had a 90% track record, 90% of the people who underwent the test passed it (Which was why the Dunking test was so popular, when dealing with people filled with superstition, it was easier to use the dunking test to show that someone was innocent of the charge against him or her, then to show, in a conventional trial, that the charge was false. Think about it, during the Witch Trials of the 1690s, Rhode Island also tried witches, but used the dunking test to see if they were witches or not (And all of the alleged Witched were found to sink, thus were NOT witches under the Dunking test). On the other hand Salem Massachusetts dismissed the dunking test as medieval device with no real Science behind it. Salem had conventional trials, permitting in "Spectral" evidence to prove that people were witches. The convicted were then tortured will their either died, confessed or hanged (The people who Confessed all lived for the fact that they had confessed meant they can ask for forgiveness and could testify against others, as such they lived long enough for even the people of Massachusetts to accept that the witch trials were wrong).

Think about it, we have more people executed as Witches AFTER the dunking test was outlawed then the time period when the Dunking test was the rule.

Side note: The main reason the various "tests" to determined if someone was telling the truth or not were phased out had nothing to do with ill-reliability, but the fact that the error in such tests was to ruling someone "Not Guilty" as oppose to "Guilty" (either because he or she was innocent OR God had forgiven them). As we entered the Renaissance greater effort was being made to suppress the lower classes, more by the raising Middle Class (About 10% of the population, roughly those people whose income was between 90-97% of of all incomes) then by the older Nobility (Roughly people whose income were in the top 3% of the income of that society).

The peasants (And later the urban working classes) whose income earning was between the 10% of the population that even the Communist call the "Poor" and the top 10% of the population representing the Middle and Noble Classes of Society, the better modern term is "Upper Middle Class") were the people such Middle Class and Nobles wanted to control, and to do so the old "Tests" were to liberal to permit to survive. Thus were abolished and called the product of Medieval superstition (and attacked as such, do to the "tests" bias to find someone innocent).

Even the Jury Trial went through a transformation between 1500 and 1800. Prior to 1500, Juries tended to be made up of peasants or if the person on trial was a Noble, a jury of Nobles (The classic case is a Maryland case from the late 1600s, involving a woman who had killed her new born baby, the jury was made up of all women, her "peers" NOT men as would have been the case after about 1700). After about 1700, (and Clearly by 1800) juries were made up of Upper Middle Class males, it was almost impossible for a peasant or working man to get on a jury before 1900 (and it took while pass the 1950s to get people on juries who were NOT upper Middle class, and then only as a result of Civil Rights Movement that demanded African Americans get on the Jury, since they were very few Upper Middle Class African Americans, the States were forced to change their rules to included ALL people no matter their income, home ownership status or even registration to vote).

Even today, while it is possible to have non-upper middle class people on Juries, most juries tend to have more Upper Middle Class people on them then is the norm for the population as a whole. Even today Judges and Lawyers tend to prefer people like themselves, people in the upper 10-15% of income earners. Some juries do consist of all lower middle class and poor people, but those are much rarer then juries with upper middle class people on it. Various efforts have been made to expand the jury pool, but the fact that the poor move more often then any other group, tend to have NOT registered to vote, tend to have a criminal record, tends to work against them being a member of the Jury pool. Upper Middle Class people tend to be more willing to convict people then are the lower classes if the evidence is weak (If the evidence is strong, both groups will convict but it is rare for such cases to go to trial, some plead bargain is generally agreed to while before trail). Given this bias by Upper Middle Class people, Juries tend to want to convict, and prosecutors tend to want Upper Middle Class people on the Juries for that reason.

I mention the jury, for it shows how it has changed do to the desire of the Upper Middle Class to want to control society. It is for this same reason the various "Tests" were abolished, less to do with them being unreliable, more to do with the desire of the Upper Middle Class to convict people of crimes they are accused of and do to that ability to deal out "Justice" control society.

The use of such Camera to determine if someone is telling the truth will only be used to maintain control, it if for this reason Lie Detectors have stayed around so long. When it comes to actual truth, the courts will rely on Juries to make such determination, but Juries pre-deposed to convict. Thus such Cameras have no use in the Court and thus like Lie Detectors will NOT be admitted.
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-14-11 11:12 PM
Response to Original message
43. So it is 17% better than a chance result
Hardly comforting - no scientific or legal process would accept this as even approaching an adequate standard of evidence.
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