Turkey seizes Syrian ship, announces arms embargo

[Bosonic]

Source: Reuters

ANKARA - Turkey has seized a Syrian-flagged ship and will intercept any arms shipments headed to Syria, Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan said late on Friday, a response to Damascus' bloody crackdown on anti-government protesters.

Speaking to reporters in New York late on Friday where he attended the UN General Assembly, Erdogan said Turkey had stopped a Syrian-flagged ship in Marmara, according to state-run Anatolia News Agency. It did not indicate whether the ship was stopped in the Sea of Marmara or the port of Marmara.

Erdogan did not say when the ship was seized or whether any weapons were found aboard.

"We have already made a decision to stop and prevent any vehicle carrying any type of weapon to Syria. We told them our decision as well as shared it with neighboring countries," Anatolia quoted Erdogan as saying.

Read more: http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?ID=239287

[aquart]

1. Well, ain't they the guys in charge?

Planning to rule the Middle East, much?

[parkia00]

8. So you feel this in unacceptable bahaviour?

On Turkey's part? Should Turkey have let the cargo go to it's final destination? Why do I feel that if Turkey did just that you would still have something negative to say.

[bahrbearian]

16. ?

[JDPriestly]

26. Ottoman Empire?

[24601]

41. Turkey hasn't demonstrated those aspirations. At the national

level, it's Iran than demands to be the regional power and hasn't even backed off denying Israel's right to exist. Funny position to take when they are non-arabs in a region dominated and are part of the minority Shia - so the other Islamic nations - except those being propped-up by Iran - aren't likely to get behind Persian "leadership."

Turkey getting on board stopping weapons-running is a start - let's see if they have the intelligence and balls to apply it to shipments headed from Turkey to Gaza.

[Lasher]

2. How's this different from what Israel is doing?

Turkey thinks it's bad for Israel to stop ships going to Gaza, but it's OK for them to seize ships going to Syria?

[vminfla]

9. They are going to turn right back around and send it on a Gaza Aid Flotilla

But, the will add a few rubber duckies, some towels and a couple of other items to make it a "Humanitarian" mission.

[mainer]

34. And Israel will attack and kill them.

as they did before.

[aquart]

48. Yeah, Israel started it by attacking an Israeli paratrooper.

Good luck with that.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

11. I will have to check further, but Turkey has not declared a blockade

and has no justification for doing so.

[Pterodactyl]

15. Well, an undeclared blockade is even worse, then!

[ProgressiveProfessor]

18. There are formal procedures that have to be followed...does not look like they have

[No Elephants]

20. Did someone say consistency abounds in international relations?

[mainer]

22. Israel stops ALL shipments, including food.

Turkey is specifically stopping a ship with weapons.

[Lasher]

23. "Erdogan did not say when the ship was seized or whether any weapons were found aboard."

Egypt and Israel allow civilian goods, including food, through their blockade. They inspect shipments to ensure no weapons are aboard, and they prevent ships from docking at the Port of Gaza where these inspections would not occur.

Turkey did the very same thing that they have condemned the Israelis of doing.

[quakerboy]

27. Partial information

They allow *limited* civilian goods through. But there are a great many civilian goods which are not allowed through. Some have a "reasonable" explanation, for instance fertilizer, which could also be used in bomb making and is restricted. But other items not allowed through include, Candles, shoes, and mattresses. Also Chocolate, Pasta, and coffee.

[Lasher]

28. I wasn't trying to write an essay.

I didn't elaborate on the dual use issue since I had already furnished enough details to make my point.

[quakerboy]

29. Chocolate is dual use?

Your post implied that only military items are stopped, and civilian items are allowed. That is not the truth.

We have yet to see what Turkey's new policy is, in specifics. But if they are only stopping weaponry, that's not the same as the Israeli blockade, which is much more extensive.

[Lasher]

30. What a load of bullshit.

You don't know if Turkey allows chocolate to go through. But let's say they do, while Israel and Egypt don't. Are you actually trying to say that would mean Turkey is not a bunch of fucking hypocrites?

[quakerboy]

31. Hypocrites perhaps, but false equivalency is still false.

Person A picks up a wallet with a fat load of bills someone dropped at an upscale club and dosn't return it. Person B breaks into a home in a poor neighborhood and steals everything inside it down to the last bottle of peanut butter and the kids new school clothing.

The both stole, and either talking smack about the other would be a hypocrite. But they are not equivalent.

We do not yet know specifics of what turkey is doing. I just found out the other day they are occupying part of Cyprus, acting in a way which I found very similar to that of Israels actions with regard to territory they occupy. Maybe thats part of why they have been relatively allied with Israel recently.

But what we do know is that Israel goes far beyond purely inspections and removal of weaponry. And your post implied that that was all they do. Granted the post you were responding to was just as incomplete as yours, implying that all food is stopped, which is also not the full truth.

[Lasher]

51. Red Herring.

The only equivalency I claimed, either directly or by implication, was that both Turkey and Israel are stopping ships to seize weapons. I didn't say the two countries' policies are exactly the same. Omission of details does not constitute an implicit claim that they do not exist.

Your false equivalency fabrication is a red herring.

[quakerboy]

52. Not true. You claimed more, and your false equivalency is still false.

Your words: "Egypt and Israel allow civilian goods, including food, through their blockade. They inspect shipments to ensure no weapons are aboard, and they prevent ships from docking at the Port of Gaza where these inspections would not occur. Turkey did the very same thing that they have condemned the Israelis of doing."

Your words. Indicating that Israel stops weapons and lets civilian goods through. Which is in strict point of fact not the truth. Israel lets only a select list of civilian goods through, while Blocking civilian goods, including food, from entering Gaza. Which means your claim infers, at least by what we know so far, a false equivalency in the practical policy's each state has instituted.

If you want to get technical instead of looking at the practical differences in policy, as I understand it Turkey condemned Israel for blockading an entity it was at war with, which turkey states is illegal under international rules. As far as I am aware, Turkey is not at war with Syria, nor even in any sort of armed conflict. Which would make the situation technically different as well.

[Lasher]

53. I didn't say they allow all civilian goods or all food through the blockade.

I chose my words specifically because I knew of the dual use issue and didn't want to divert the discussion by getting into it. You obviously do, since you insist on comparing the details of Israel's policy with that of Turkey - even though you've said you don't know the specifics of Turkey's policy. You've said it twice.

Israel stops ships. Turkey stops ships. Your red herring can't change that obvious truth.

[mainer]

33. Israel shot to death Turks and one Turkish American

for taking part in a flotilla with humanitarian aid. They weren't going to allow ANY aid into Gaza in that case. Even though it had earlier been certified as non-weaponry.

[Behind the Aegis]

38. You're playing fast and loose with facts.

[mainer]

40. Israel didn't kill Turks and a Turkish-American?

Is it not a fact that those people are dead?

How is that fast and loose with the facts?

[Behind the Aegis]

44. Let's review:

"Israel shot to death Turks and one Turkish American for taking part in a flotilla with humanitarian aid."

No, Israel did not kill them for taking part in a flotilla with humanitarian aid.

"They weren't going to allow ANY aid into Gaza in that case."

Also, false as Israel had said prior to the launch of the flotilla, what the procedures were. This would have resulted in the aid getting to Gaza.

"Even though it had earlier been certified as non-weaponry."

By whom? The terrorist-loving sponsors, ISM or IHH? Really? Even so, the procedures were made quite clear and if you had any knowledge whatsoever about this, then you would know that this flotilla was the 8th (or 9th), and was the only one to-date not to follow procedures. All other humanitarian missions had their goods delivered, as well as those from Israel and the UN.

[vminfla]

24. Israeli stops all illegal shipments

But ships that follow legal and lawful customs practices enter the country routinely.

[mainer]

32. What about the Turkish flotilla that was attacked by Israelis?

Those ships were inspected and found to be free of all weapons. Yet they were boarded by Israel.

"The Gaza flotilla raid was a military operation by Israel against six ships of the "Gaza Freedom Flotilla" on 31 May 2010 in international waters of the Mediterranean Sea. The flotilla, organized by the Free Gaza Movement and the Turkish Foundation for Human Rights and Freedoms and Humanitarian Relief (İHH), was carrying humanitarian aid and construction materials, with the intention of breaking the Israeli-Egyptian blockade of the Gaza Strip."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_flotilla_raid

Israel did NOT allow purely humanitarian aid through in that case. The nine dead aboard the flotilla were shot to death. The injuries of the Israeli soldiers were fractures -- in other words, the flotilla participants were NOT ARMED with any bullets.

[vminfla]

35. I suppose Hatchets and Axes can have humanitarian applications

But choosing to not lawfully enter Israel's border legally with bullet proof vests and other assorted weaponry definitely highlight an ulterior, violent motive by these "humanitarians" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16sANhzjcC0&feature=player_embedded

[mainer]

36. Axes are part of ship's safety equipment

Hardly what you'd bring to a planned fight when the opposition has guns.

[vminfla]

43. Ship Axes are not stored in the cargo hold

Far more axes than necessary for the safety of the vessel. And, when the opposition has guns, be sure to take along one of the many bulletproof vests in the cargo hold. Or, are bulletproof vests part of a ship's safety equipment too?

[mainer]

46. Wow. Blaming unarmed victims for wearing bullteproof vests.

when they get shot to death by soldiers armed with guns.

This is unbelievable.

Do you think women should be blamed for fighting back against rapists, too? That their deaths are "to be expected" because they tried to defend themselves?

[Behind the Aegis]

39. you might need to educate yourself beyond anti-Israel propaganda.

[mainer]

42. You might want to broaden your viewpoint outside Israel's

and find out why Turkey -- a longtime ally of Israel -- has become disillusioned with israeli heavy-handedness toward the whole world, not just Palestinians.

[Behind the Aegis]

45. I'll repeat: you might need to educate yourself beyond anti-Israel propaganda.

This includes the recent events regarding Turkey. There is only so far lies, hate, and misinformation will carry you.

ETA: Keep in mind this was in response to the false information you provided in post #22 as you are trying to, hypocritically, defend Turkey's actions, whilst condemning Israel for the same thing.

[vminfla]

49. Then again, Turkey is being provocative as of late

Can't remember the last time Turkey was being so aggressive to Isreal, Syria, and Cypriot all at the same time since the fall of the Ottoman Turk empire.

[CJvR]

3. Huh?

Weren't these the guys who have edged the Middle East closer to war over Israeli 'piracy'?

[Dokkie]

4. I wonder what would happen

if all of a sudden a armed segment of the turkish society (say the kurds) decide to oust the ruling governmnt? All I know is that it aint going to be pretty.

[pampango]

5. NYT: Turkey seizes Syrian ship with weapons - PM Erdogan

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-15044314

He did not say where or when the vessel was stopped, but vowed to confiscate any arms shipments for Syria coming through Turkish waters or airspace.

Mr Erdogan has repeatedly criticised Syrian President Bashar al-Assad over his government's violent crackdown on street protesters. Last week, Mr Erdogan said the era of oppressive dictators was over.

"Turkey has arrested a ship flying the Syrian flag and carrying weapons," Mr Erdogan said in New York where he attended the UN General Assembly, Turkey's Anataolia news agency reports. "If in the future arms shipments (to Syria) are made by air or land, we will stop and seize them," he added.

News of this latest incident marks a hardening in relations between two formerly friendly countries, the BBC's Matthew Well in New York reports. Ankara has grown increasingly impatient with Damascus' refusal to discuss political reforms, our correspondent says.

Interesting that Turkey has gone from a friendly neighbor to one that is enforcing its own arms embargo in the course of this 5-month crackdown on protesters in Syria. It's amazing that Syrians are still demonstrating in such large numbers despite the deaths of over 2,000 (the equivalent of 30,000 in a country the size of the US) of them at the hands of the military and security forces.

Assad must be scratching his head trying to figure out what more he has to do to squash the demonstrations. Repression always worked for him (and for his father) in the past.

[harun]

6. Good, let someone else be World Police for a while.

[Harmony Blue]

10. I agree

The United States has its own issues to contend with.

[BestCenter]

37. That's the idea.

The U.K. and France were way more bullish on Libya than the U.S. was.

[Owlet]

7. The Sea of Mamara

"Speaking to reporters in New York late on Friday where he attended the UN General Assembly, Erdogan said Turkey had stopped a Syrian-flagged ship in Marmara, according to state-run Anatolia News Agency. It did not indicate whether the ship was stopped in the Sea of Marmara or the port of Marmara."


Could those weapons have come from ...<gulp> Russia?

[happyslug]

12. Could be from the Ukraine, Romania, Bulgaria and even Georgia

All four nations border the Black Sea along with Russia and shipments goes through the Sea of Marmara. I know the Ukraine, Romania and Bulgaria all can produce AK-47 and heavier infantry weapons. The Ukraine can produce tanks (and Romania and Bulgaria have tanks they can sell). I have NOT mentioned the Central Asian Republics {(Kazakhstan (pop. 16.0 million), Kyrgyzstan (5.5 million), Tajikistan (7.3 million), Turkmenistan (5.1 million), and Uzbekistan (27.6 million)}. These countries have people in them (as does Russia) that would support either side in the Syrian dispute, all export via Russia and the Crimea (Which is technically part of the Ukraine, but where the Russian Black Sea port is located and speaks Russian NOT Ukrainian).

Just pointing out this ship could have picked up its cargo from any of these countries, not just Russia.

[Igel]

13. Sure, they could have.

They could have come from Bulgaria, or Romania, or Ukraine, or Georgia.

http://www.ceoe.udel.edu/blacksea/geography/index.html

In fact, they could have come from a lot of other places, since at least some of the Black Sea countries have rather liberal transshipment policies. Fly cargo in from one country under seal so that it's not being officially imported, transship to a dock, load it onto a cargo ship, and certify that it's out of the country. Voila: Little to no inspection. Just label the weapons "cheese" or "plushies" or even "humanitarian aid" and, if worse comes to worse, pay the low-level inspector making low wages a bit of money.

Or just point out that the entire affair is an anti-Muslim/anti-Arab plot and watch those who buy the conspiracy fall into line and assist out of what amounts to the same kind of "pride."


Of course, your map provides a good time to point out a minor detail. For most people "Marmara" was a meaningless word. The ship that the Israelis boarded (with loss of life on the part of those on the ship) was named "Blue Marmara"--Turkey's into national pride, which is usually called "jingoism" or "chauvinism" when we disapprove of the goals and possible outcomes, but just call "pride" when it's the same thing but works for our ends. The tenor of the Turkish headlines over that event were "Israelis seize the Blue Marmara". Subliminal effects much?

[PufPuf23]

21. Syria hosts the only Russian Military/Naval base

in the Mediterranean Sea.

[IamK]

14. Turkey will use the arms against their Kurds... n/t

[ctwayne]

17. Are They Trying to Revive the Ottoman Empire?

Syria used to be part of the Ottoman Empire. Are the Turks trying to bring it back?

[Posteritatis]

47. *facepalm* (nt)

[Xithras]

50. That ship has sailed.

When we beat the Ottomans at the end of WW2, the Allies had three choices:

1) Leave them alone internally, and just figure out a way to punish them.
2) Democratize and modernize them, to turn them into a future ally.
3) Carve them apart like a Christmas turkey, so each victor nation could walk away with a colonialist prize to rule.

Germany got #1. The Ottomans got #3. How much better would the world be today if they had both been given #2 instead?

[bemildred]

19. EU tightens oil sanctions on Syria

New sanctions against Syria have come into effect as Turkey says it has intercepted an arms shipment at sea.

The weapons were destined for the protest-wracked country during a weekend of deadly demonstrations in which more than a dozen people were killed.

Both the European Union and Switzerland have targeted Syria's oil sector in new sanctions that bite from Saturday, with the EU banning new investments there and also prohibiting the delivery of bank notes to Syria's central bank.

The EU has also added two individuals and six companies to a list of people and entities facing an assets freeze and travel ban.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2011/09/2011924143411656287.html

[Dover]

25. I obviously don't know the whole story here, but I HOPE Turkey will remain neutral

in that volatile region. If they start taking sides and get dragged into this, I feel it might become a catalyst for WWIII. They are like the pin on the grenade and I hope they keep the pin IN.