Researcher: Hope, famed Internet bear, is dead (shot by hunter)

[villager]

Source: AP

Researcher: Hope, famed Internet bear, is dead

MINNEAPOLIS (AP) — A Minnesota black bear who became a worldwide star when her birth was broadcast over the Internet is presumed dead after a hunter came forward to report that he had shot the animal without knowing it was her, a researcher said Tuesday.

Researchers last saw the yearling bear named Hope on Sept. 14. Lynn Rogers, senior researcher at the North American Bear Center and its affiliated Wildlife Research Institute in Ely, said he was contacted Tuesday by a hunter who said he killed the bear when it came to his bait station alone on the evening Sept 16.

The hunter told Rogers he would not have deliberately shot Hope and didn't know she was the same bear. However, Rogers said the hunter also did not express remorse.

<snip>



Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/researcher-hope-famed-internet-bear-dead-221722485.html

[MineralMan]

1. Local Story from Star-Tribune

http://www.startribune.com/local/130668473.html

[ladjf]

2. I don't think that the act of shooting a bear at a bait station is hunting.

It's basically slaughter.

[Ruby the Liberal]

4. But its a sport, don't you see?

Its a level playing field, just like football and baseball.

The animals all have guns, ammo, camouflage, blinds, calls and bait stations just like the people do!

[RebelOne]

41. Right. It is not a sport unless both sides are equally armed. n/t

[MineralMan]

7. I agree with you on this, but shooting bears at baited sites

is legal in Minnesota, and in most other states around here. Oddly enough, shooting deer over bait is not. I find it to be an unsporting practice, but it is traditional, and is unlikely to be discontinued.

[Ruby the Liberal]

9. Just because its legal doesn't negate that it is slaughter

nor that it should not be considered "hunting". It is sitting on your lazy ass at a trap designed to ensnare an animal and then putting down your beer long enough to shoot whatever wanders in.

[MineralMan]

10. I just said I disagreed with the practice. Perhaps you didn't

read my post. I'm just providing information about what the laws are.

[Ruby the Liberal]

11. I did read it (all 3 of them, including your link - thanks for the article)

Just because something is legal doesn't make it right. Wall Street bullshit is legal too. It is legal to discriminate against same-sex couples in 80% of states and the federal government.

Sorry, but something being "legal" doesn't mean shit to me and should never be an excuse for abhorrent behavior. Internet "celebrity" or not.

I know I sound like a shrew, but this is just a 'thing' of mine and has been since childhood. Hunters/trappers are free to hunt/trap legally all they like, but they will never find a friend in me or a meal at my home under any circumstance, in any season or for any reason.

I consider it a significant character flaw.

*shrug*

[LanternWaste]

13. I agree. Completely.

"I consider it a significant character flaw..."

I agree. Completely.

[MineralMan]

19. That's fine with me. I feel differently, and understand that

hunting is necessary and legal. A large portion of wildlife conservation and research efforts are funded by hunting license fees. I personally do not hunt any longer, but I know people who do. Those who eat meat are as culpable in the death of animals as hunters, but rarely acknowledge that, since their meat comes neatly packaged in the supermarket. Hunters, on the other hand, know the source of their food and participate in the activity of getting it.

Whether they are friends of yours or not is probably not a relevant thing to them. If you are a vegetarian or vegan, you have an appropriate moral ground on which to stand, and I appreciate your beliefs. If you are not, then I consider an objection to hunting to be a bit questionable, really.

Again, I do not support hunting over food that is placed to attract animals. I do not consider that to be ethical. Hunting, itself, however, is not something I have a problem with.

[LanternWaste]

64. what is the precise and relevant moral difference in simply placing bait?

"I do not consider that to be ethical."

If hunting is indeed ethical, what is the precise and relevant moral difference in hunting vs. placing bait, and on what is that based?

[MineralMan]

66. The ethical concept it violates is called "Fair Chase."

Baiting attracts the animals to a specific spot, over and over again. The animal becomes accustomed to eating at that location, and the baiting is begun before the hunting season begins. Then, when the season opens, the baiting continues, with the hunter lying in wait for the animal to come to that familiar feeding site. "Fair Chase" implies that the animal goes about its ordinary activities, and is not diverted from them by things like baiting. Thus, the hunter has to learn the habits and activities of the animal in order to place himself where the animal will naturally be.

Fair Chase is one of the basic elements of the hunting experience. It is the skill of the hunter in determining where he or she is likely to find the animal that is the challenge. Baiting removes that element. So, for most ethical hunters, baiting is a form of cheating. Other, similar violations of fair chase include jack-lighting.

Laws about baiting vary widely from state to state. In Minnesota, for example, deer may not be baited, although forage plots can be planted outside of the season to attract deer. Even with fishing, chumming, which is a form of baiting, is prohibited in Minnesota, and for the same reason of "Fair Chase."

Not every hunter has these ethics. Not every state makes such practices illegal. Since I no longer hunt, it's something that doesn't affect me. I fish, but my fishing is all done with artificial lures and my wits. I'm pretty successful - often more successful than the anglers with all the technology on their boats to locate the fish. I use old techniques to locate the fish I catch, use barbless or circle hooks, and release them all. It is the chase that is the thing. No fair chase and I might as well drag a net across the lake.

I hope that helps.

[plumbob]

69. So he and his family will eat the bear to get them through the winter?

Really?

I think he just like to kill shit. I think I'd enjoy hunting if they'd give me a license to hunt unethical hunters.

Pretty good shot as a kid. Could put 3/3 in a 2" circle at 500 yards, open sight.

[maxsolomon]

74. People do eat Bear

The meat's supposed to be greasy, so hunters typically make sausage out of it here in Warshington State. I doubt they eat the entire bear that way - I think hunting fellow carnivores sucks, and is, as you said, about killing shit. Deer, Elk, Antelope, that's more in line with our place in the food chain.

From Wiki:
MeatIn the Middle Ages, the eating of bear meat was considered more a symbolic than culinary act. The paws and thigh of the bear were considered the best parts.<10> Polar bears are a primary source of food for Inuit. Polar bear meat is usually baked or boiled in a soup or stew. It is never eaten raw. Polar bear liver is inedible, as it contains large amounts of vitamin A and is highly toxic.<9> Bear meat has tended to receive mixed reviews. Its greasy, coarse texture and sweet flavor requires a certain kind of palate. Bear meat should be thoroughly cooked as it can carry a parasitic infection known as trichinella, a potentially dangerous disease to humans.<3> Flavour is dependent on the age and diet of the bear. The best meat apparently comes from two year old bears which eat more berries than fish.<4>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bear_hunting

[MineralMan]

78. I have absolutely no idea. I do not know the hunter.

I don't know you either.

[bitchkitty]

75. I don't eat meat

but I agree with you. If most people had to hunt and kill their own meat, a lot more people would be vegetarians.

[Hubert Flottz]

26. About like shooting the birds off of your bird feeder...

It takes a real hero type to get a thrill out of "hunting" like that. Was it Dick Cheney?

[Hawkowl]

61. Like an AK-47 at McDonalds

This kind of "hunting" and "sport" should be illegal. Somebody wants to kill something, let them go to a slaughter house. Fucking Assholes.

[plumbob]

68. It's absolutely slaughter engaged in by folks with a complex of some sort.

No reason in the world why bears need to be enticed and killed. None.

If the hunter thinks what he did was so noble, why not identify himself? I'll tell you why. He does not want to take the consequence for his actions. He's basically a child hiding from trouble. Problem is, he's armed and loves killing things which have not offended him in any way.

Bait station? Death buffet.

Sending thoughts out that the hunter will get what he's got coming.

[Zorra]

84. I don't understand why people like to kill things that they don't eat.

Maybe this guy was going to eat the bear, but a lot of bear hunters don't eat what they kill.

And bear meat is greasy and tastes awful, IMO.

I have absolutely no problem with killing an animal if you need food, I've killed many animals for sustenance, but good grief, how can anyone get pleasure out of killing anything for sport?

Vegetarian for 20 yrs. now, primarily because I can't stand the thought or act of killing anything.

[Ruby the Liberal]

3. "Express remorse"?

I don't even know why they would note that. The guy was out shooting animals for sport.

I would be less surprised to hear "and he is having a rug made out of her this week" than he "did not express remorse".

[MineralMan]

5. This has very many people very upset.

They watched this bear being born on the Internet, and have followed it for a year and a half now. My wife was one of the people who followed the bear since its birth and even before. Now, it's been shot by a hunter. Many of the people who followed it are incensed, because they have invested emotionally in this bear's life.

Bears are hunted in Minnesota. They have been as long as people have lived here. It's legal, and hunters have to bid for a chance to hunt bears and buy a license and tags. This bear, Hope, was not contained, but was free to move wherever it wished. It was still with its mother and her new cub from this past spring. The researchers had tried to put a collar on her but without success, and hunters are asked not to shoot collared research bears, although it is not illegal to do so.

I have always questioned the wisdom of researchers making Internet stars out of their wild research animals. I believe the outrage over this bear's death by a hunter is evidence that I was right to question. I do not hunt bears. I don't hunt anything any more, and even release the fish I catch. But, hunting is legal and shooting bears is legal. The bear was not marked or collared. It was taken by a licensed hunter.

I'm angry, too, but my anger is at the researchers who turned this bear into a celebrity, knowing all the time that there was a chance the bear would fall to a hunter. Many other bears will be shot this hunting season, but nobody will find out about them or read about them in the newspaper. This bear was shot, but was an internet celebrity. That is the difference.

[uppityperson]

38. Indeed. thank you for your posts here. eom

[MineralMan]

44. Thanks for saying that. I followed Hope's progress, too.

However, I made certain that I didn't become emotionally invested in this bear. I encouraged my wife, too, to try to maintain an interest in the process without becoming attached to the animal. Sadly, what I was afraid could happen did happen. My wife's OK, and understands, even though she doesn't like it one bit. Neither do I. But, turning wild animals into celebrities is a very, very bad idea, and the man who runs this bear center has been broadly criticized by the scientific community for his approach, as well. I imagine he will use this as a lesson and avoid making that mistake in the future, or I hope he does, anyhow.

[SkyDaddy7]

63. Hunting over bait is the problem...For me!

I hunted my entire life until I suffered a spinal cord injury. (No, not hunting related) I have always looked down on baiting animals as that is not "HUNTING". Hunting requires enormous leg work & knowing how animals behave & how to apply that knowledge to finding a legal animal to shoot. Sitting in deer or bear stand over a drum filled with fish or fruit or corn or whatever is not hunting...It is what FAT LAZY people do for fun. IMHO.

[MineralMan]

67. Yeah, for me, too. I don't like the idea of hunting over bait.

It's too damned easy.

[Faryn Balyncd]

6. Here are some photos of Hope and Lily:

[Ruby the Liberal]

8. Heartbreaking.

:cry:

[robbob]

40. I don't get it.

Why the hell do we feel the need to kill these beautiful creatures in the first place?

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[snooper2]

56. So Sarah Palin does it because she is lacking a cock as well?

:eyes:

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[snooper2]

71. Why you got to bring up dick as well? We don't define people by their sexual organs

or lack of correct?

[plumbob]

76. Hmmm, right or wrong, it appears to be quite common. Lived in Dallas long?

Or a transplant? Not looking for trouble, just curious. I'm a lifetime native of the Empty Quarter of Texas, west of the I-35 corridor.

[Ikonoklast]

Sarah Palin hunts about as much as my sofa does.

She hardly knows how to hold a firearm, it's all bullshit for the gullible to lap up.

[coffeenap]

12. ENOUGH! I have had it with hunters...

Flame away. If you're not eating it because you need it, find something else to do! It's murder.

[StandingInLeftField]

15. Are you a strict vegeterian?

If so, you are certainly upholding your convictions. If not, you are a surrogate murderer.

I am not a hunter, but, if you eat meat, then by your definition murderers provided you with supper last night.

[veganlush]

17. you're right

more people need to realize that they create the demand that enables factory farms and the institutional torture they perform daily. boycott cruelty people, go vegan, it's not that hard and you'll feel better in many ways.

[RebelOne]

42. I am a vegetarian and I abhor hunting and hunters. n/t

[MineralMan]

50. OK. See my comment to you further down the thread.

Vegetarians have ethical grounds for criticizing hunting. Meat eaters? Not so much.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

62. I'm with you.

I'm a strict vegetarian and I think hunters are cowards. I have made them run...guns and all.

[RaleighNCDUer]

14. Why do people hunt bear, anyway?

Are they good eating? Are their pelts worth anything?

I can understand hunting for venison, or wild turkey, or many other things, but killing just for the sake of killing makes no sense to me.

[veganlush]

20. and it's not hunting.

they either "tree" them with dogs before "dispatching" them, or they ambush them over a bait pile like the low-life in this post. The only reason some states don't allow ambushing deer the same way is that they want to stop the spread of communicable diseases such as tb that can be spread in bait piles. where baiting is allowed, they "hunt" them that way too.

[SecularMotion]

21. Hunting is used as a means of population control

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Hunting-1633/Pros-Cons-Hunting.htm

[onehandle]

60. Unnecessary. After a time the population will self-correct.

Hunting is about killing with a gun.

[X_Digger]

80. If you've ever seen overpopulation, disease and starvation, you'll change your mind.

I've seen it- the deer were about the size of a german shepard. They also strip vegetation, which affects the balance of other species- both plant and animal.

http://www.nytimes.com/1988/04/03/nyregion/starving-deer-found-at-overpopulated-park.html

[MineralMan]

22. Actually, bear meat is quite good. Most bear hunters eat the

meat from the bears they kill. They also utilize the hides and fur. Bear pelts are quite valuable, as well, and most are tanned and used. Only a few hunt bear merely for the sport of it, or other animals, for that matter.

I've eaten bear meat at a game dinner. I have never hunted bear, though. I have hunted deer and pronghorns in the past, though, and ate the animals I killed.

[bullwinkle428]

51. Bear meat is good? Everything I've read in the past indicated

that the meat was pretty lousy. Out of curiosity, I just did a quick search, and found this:

"In the Middle Ages, the eating of bear meat was considered more a symbolic than culinary act. The paws and thigh of the bear were considered the best parts.<10> Polar bears are a primary source of food for Inuit. Polar bear meat is usually baked or boiled in a soup or stew. It is never eaten raw. Polar bear liver is inedible, as it contains large amounts of vitamin A and is highly toxic.<9> Bear meat has tended to receive mixed reviews. Its greasy, coarse texture and sweet flavor requires a certain kind of palate. Bear meat should be thoroughly cooked as it can carry a parasitic infection known as trichinella, a potentially dangerous disease to humans.<3> Flavour is dependent on the age and diet of the bear. The best meat apparently comes from two year old bears which eat more berries than fish."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bear_hunting

"With a record number of bear being culled during this year’s hunt, the first in five years, area butchers are being inundated with the hunters’ quarry. Although many are happy to have the additional work, butchers say they’re not big fans of preparing the harvest from this year’s hunt because the meat is so greasy.

Joe Minorics, a butcher with 57 West Deer Processing in Phillipsburg, said he can only truly be "bribed" to take time away from making venison to cut up a bear.

"It’s a nasty creature," Minorics said of the bear he is now butchering for local hunters. "They’re greasy, and they’re slimy ... It’s so greasy, I don’t want any of it in my deer meat... It’s a trophy animal.""

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2010/12/bear_hunters_seek_butchers_to.html

I'm sure there are fellow DUers curious about the quality of the meat, so I just wanted to share what I had found.

[MineralMan]

Like all game, it depends on a lot of factors.

What I had was good. Sort of pork-like, and not greasy at all. Perhaps it was the cut and how it was prepared. I have only one experience with it.

One guy I know turns most of his bear meat into jerky. I haven't been offered any, though.

Lots of people dislike game meat. I'm not one of those. I guess it's an individual thing.

[bullwinkle428]

87. Sounds like the quality is highly dependent on what the bear ate throughout

his life - kind of "garbage in, garbage out", if much of their nutrition was obtained through dumpster diving. I've eaten venison, bison, elk, wild boar, alligator, and some other unusual and off-the-wall things, and have enjoyed all of it, but not sure I'd ever be down with the bear thing.

[MineralMan]

88. I imagine that's true. I've only had the one experience, so I'm

no expert on it. Like you, I've tasted a broad spectrum of game. Anytime there's a game dinner, you can count on me buying a ticket.

[veganlush]

16. Amazing that these people

can rationalize this ambush enough to call it hunting. This is a ted nugent-style cowardly wasting of worthy creatures by the unworthy.

[Kingofalldems]

18. I want my guns!

And I must kill something!

[radhika]

23. City girl is confused - please help...

Bait stations? People lay out bait to lure wild animals from the woods to where people are - and then they shoot them?

I thought the pleasure of hunting was being out IN the woods, tracking animals on THEir turf using one's skills?

[Ruby the Liberal]

25. Nah - how you gonna enjoy that 6-pack if you don't have a place to

sit and wait for them to come to the trap you've set up?

[MineralMan]

31. That is an incorrect stereotype of hunters.

No hunter I know would drink while hunting. Afterwards, perhaps, but not while hunting. I'm sure there are exceptions to that, but I've known a lot of hunters in my life and none consumed alcohol while hunting.

[Ruby the Liberal]

33. Stop by and visit us here in the northeast after November 1

We have more news items in the paper about the T of Pennsyltucky showcasing the drinking accidents while hunting than the awards said "sportsman" have won.

[MineralMan]

36. As I said, some hunters, no doubt, do drink, but it is a very small

minority. Stereotyping works that way, you see. You hear about the problems, not the typical situation.

[Lochloosa]

39. You are forgetting one incident....

Cheney, "A Beer or Two" and a Gun
The Nation -- Vice President Dick Cheney, who was forced to leave Yale University because his penchant for late-night beer drinking exceeded his devotion to his studies, and who is one of the small number of Americans who can count two drunk driving busts on his record, was doing more than hunting quail on the day that he shot a Texas lawyer in the face.
The vice president has admitted that he was drinking on the afternoon of the incident. He claims it was only a beer, according to the transcript of an interview with Fox New Wednesday. But the whole discussion about how much drinking took place on the day of the fateful hunt has been evolving rapidly since Katherine Armstrong, the wealthy Republican lobbyist who is a member of the politically connected family that owns the ranch where Cheney blasted his hunting partner, initially claimed that no one was imbibing before the incident.
Armstrong later acknowledged to a reporter from the NBC investigative unit that alcohol may have been served at a picnic Saturday afternoon on the dude ranch where Cheney shot Harry Whittington.


http://www.theinsider.org/news/article.asp?id=1856

[MineralMan]

46. I'm not forgetting anything at all. A small minority of hunters

hunt while under the influence of alcohol. Most do not. Only those who do make the news.

[MineralMan]

27. In Minnesota, it is still legal to hunt bears over food that is

put out as bait for the bears. I think it should not be legal. However, the reason there is a hunting season for bears is to regulate the population of the animals, which certainly cause problems when they overpopulate an area. Bears do wander into built-up areas in search of food, and often must be killed. We've had numerous cases of that here in Minnesota, including one bear last year less than a mile from my home in Saint Paul.

Baiting is allowed in Minnesota, because bears are very hard to hunt in any other way. In some places hunters use dogs to find the bears. Unlike deer, which often follow well-established paths when traveling through their territories, bears are not as habitual about such things and wander randomly in their territories. Since the goal in Minnesota is to control the total number of bears in a given area, the state's DNR allows baiting as a means of assuring that enough bears are killed each year to prevent crowding and the resulting incursions into populated areas.

Now, the fact that people have moved into and built communities in areas where bears live is another issue entirely. Minnesota is heavily forested, and most communities, including the city of St. Paul, are still surrounded by forested areas, and bears are not uncommon sights in residential areas. Control is needed, and hunting is the most economical way to do that. Add to that the revenue generated by hunters in license fees, and much research is supported by the hunters themselves.

It is a shame that this 18 month old bear was killed. It was part of a study group. But, it would not allow a collar to remain on its neck, and so could not be told from any other bear its age.

Disclaimer: I do not hunt bears, or any other animals now.

[JoeyT]

86. Yeah, that about sums it up.

It's illegal to bait certain animals, like deer, but only with certain kinds of bait.* You can still plant an oat patch so they're lured in by the prospect of food during the season that food is scarce, which is when deer hunting season is. The only hunting that isn't baited hunting is stalking, which is what you're talking about, and nearly no one does it. The ones that claim to mostly hunt during dog season, where you turn a pack of dogs loose to run the animals toward you so you can shoot them. That or ride a 4 wheeler around until they see something to shoot. Quail hunting works much the same way. Wheat is spread over a field for weeks before season starts so they're used to coming there for food. Ditto for turkey.

Baiting isn't even the worst of it. For the hunter without patience there are places you can pay that will let you walk up and shoot an animal that doesn't even have the luxury of running away, either because it's in a cage or because it's in a fenced in hunting area. Usually the latter hobble the animal in some way, like clipping the wings on the birds.

No skills are involved. It's a lot less romantic than it's made out to be, mostly because "Well, we're going to find a starving animal, corner it up, and kill it. Assuming we're a good enough shot to not gutshoot it and make it suffer for weeks on end." would find much more opposition.

*Varies by state: It my state it's legal to hunt over an oat patch, but not corn. I don't remember if it's legal to hunt over a salt lick. It is legal to hunt over corn if it's from a corn field. Also legal are hormone lures. I've never heard of a state where oat patches were illegal, but they're probably illegal somewhere.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

24. I hate hunting and hunters.

There, I said it.

Evolve, already. :mad:

[MineralMan]

29. Do you eat meat?

That is all. Your answer to that question will determine my opinion of your hatred.

[RebelOne]

45. Well, I don't eat meat and I( hate hunting and hunters. n/t

[MineralMan]

49. OK. You were not the person I was asking, though.

If you are a vegetarian, you may criticize hunting freely, since that criticism is supported by your ethics.

[buckrogers1965]

28. Let's even it up a little.

Only allow bear hunting with your fists.

Mano-a-Bearo.

Just kidding.

I don't have a problem with bear hunting, but baited hunting of any kind should be illegal. You want a Bear? Hump your ass out into the hills and hump the bear back over those hills.

[Javaman]

30. If that isn't a metaphor for our times, I don't know what is. nt

[bongbong]

52. I'm surprised!

When I saw this story had 50 replies, I thought most of them would be about the metaphorical nature, on several levels, of this killing. But yours was the only one! That bear's death really is a hell of a coincidence because of its name, combined with the Wall Street protests, the upcoming war with Pakistan, etc.

BTW, I'm against hunting unless it is VERY sporting - maybe bow & arrow with no GPS/etc.

[TownDrunk2]

32. I don't think there is any lifeform lower than hunters and mankind in general

[MineralMan]

37. Yourself excluded, no doubt. n/t

[tcaudilllg]

34. Lock him up.

[Ruby the Liberal]

35. On what grounds?

There was nothing illegal to what he did.

[tcaudilllg]

73. Do it anyway. It shouldn't have been legal.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jberryhill]

48. This is why I support the right to arm bears!

[tawadi]

53. How apropos. A name "Hope" lost.

[and-justice-for-all]

54. I find that hunting bears is unnecessary and barbaric...nt

[Freddie Stubbs]

57. Then don't do it

[and-justice-for-all]

58. It should be banned, that is what I mean...nt

[bongbong]

55. BTW

BTW, all the posts saying "if you're aren't a vegetarian you can't criticize it" are lacking in fundamental logic. I'm surprised so many DUers fall for it.

Wild animals are a distinct class from farm-raised animals. Among many other differences, farm raised animals wouldn't be there without man's intervention. Wild animals do not have this quality.

Also, since there are a number of experiments showing plants have some kind of consciousness that we don't fully understand, they could probably be classed as "lower animals" or something if we had the scientific wherewithal to figure out the true situation.

Over & out.

[LanternWaste]

65. I'd hazard those making that equivalency are...

"BTW, all the posts saying "if you're aren't a vegetarian you can't criticize it" are lacking in fundamental logic...."


I'd hazard those making that equivalency are, in many cases, simply attempting to strengthen the moral validation of their own ethical standard by reducing those of others.

[Downwinder]

59. The death of Hope.

[Arugula Latte]

72. Asshole. I only like it when hunters shoot each other. nt

[petronius]

77. You know, it is possible to dislike hunting without liking it when people get shot

That latter part is a significant character flaw... :eyes:

[The Stranger]

82. Not a character flaw.

It's justice.

[MineralMan]

79. I don't know. That seems a bit...well...

Never mind.

[dionysus]

85. ah, how "liberal"

:puke:

[Name removed]

81. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MineralMan]

83. I don't think we do that on DU.

[Tom Ripley]

89. "I was out to kill bears, but I didn't mean to kill a famous bear!"

"The hunter told Rogers he would not have deliberately shot Hope and didn't know she was the same bear"
American celebrity culture rolls on...