Bob Dylan now favourite to take the Nobel prize for literature

[Lars77]

Source: The Guardian

Odds on Dylan running away with the Nobel prize for literature tomorrow tumble from 100/1 to 5/1

Sizzling-hot Nobel update! We reported yesterday that a late surge in betting on this year's Nobel prize for literature had seen the odds on Bob Dylan tumbling from 100/1 to 10/1 over 24 hours, making him fourth-favourite to take the prize. Well, it didn't end there: Ladbrokes have just issued a press release saying that Dylan is now installed as the firm favourite, after 80% of bets taken in the last 12 hours were placed on the singer-songwriter. Odds on him are now 5/1, ahead of Adonis (6/1), Haruki Murakami (8/1) and Tomas Transtromer (10/1).

Read more: http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/booksblog/2011/oct/05/nobel-prize-literature-bob-dylan?newsfeed=true

[Jim Warren]

1. Dylan an icon in pop music sure

but a Nobel in literature is ridiculous. That's what a Grammy is for.

[usrname]

2. Why do you say that?

His poetry is what makes his songs "sing". It's not the music or his singing that is so captivating. It's the words he uses.

[Jim Warren]

7. Because it's not poetry, it's pop lyrics

and it does a disservice to every serious poet working in literature.

[nbcouch]

13. Gee, I thought maybe

he was being considered because of the book he wrote.

[Posteritatis]

18. True Scotsmen everywhere! (nt)

[No Elephants]

40. It's poetry. You may not think it's great poetry, but it is poetry.

[Lance_Boyle]

62. So poetry is not literature?

Better walk back all that Shakespeare stuff they've been teaching in Lit departments, then...

:eyes:

[Tunkamerica]

4. I read his 'Last thoughts on Woody Guthrie'

for a public speaking class in college. To say his lyrics aren't literature, can't be enjoyed without the music, is wrong in my opinion.

LAST THOUGHTS ON WOODY GUTHRIE

When yer head gets twisted and yer mind grows numb
When you think you're too old, too young, too smart or too dumb
When yer laggin' behind an' losin' yer pace
In a slow-motion crawl of life's busy race
No matter what yer doing if you start givin' up
If the wine don't come to the top of yer cup
If the wind's got you sideways with with one hand holdin' on
And the other starts slipping and the feeling is gone
And yer train engine fire needs a new spark to catch it
And the wood's easy findin' but yer lazy to fetch it
And yer sidewalk starts curlin' and the street gets too long
And you start walkin' backwards though you know its wrong
And lonesome comes up as down goes the day
And tomorrow's mornin' seems so far away
And you feel the reins from yer pony are slippin'
And yer rope is a-slidin' 'cause yer hands are a-drippin'
And yer sun-decked desert and evergreen valleys
Turn to broken down slums and trash-can alleys
And yer sky cries water and yer drain pipe's a-pourin'
And the lightnin's a-flashing and the thunder's a-crashin'
And the windows are rattlin' and breakin' and the roof tops a-shakin'
And yer whole world's a-slammin' and bangin'
And yer minutes of sun turn to hours of storm
And to yourself you sometimes say
"I never knew it was gonna be this way
Why didn't they tell me the day I was born"

And you start gettin' chills and yer jumping from sweat
And you're lookin' for somethin' you ain't quite found yet
And yer knee-deep in the dark water with yer hands in the air
And the whole world's a-watchin' with a window peek stare
And yer good gal leaves and she's long gone a-flying
And yer heart feels sick like fish when they're fryin'
And yer jackhammer falls from yer hand to yer feet
And you need it badly but it lays on the street
And yer bell's bangin' loudly but you can't hear its beat
And you think yer ears might a been hurt
Or yer eyes've turned filthy from the sight-blindin' dirt
And you figured you failed in yesterdays rush
When you were faked out an' fooled white facing a four flush
And all the time you were holdin' three queens
And it's makin you mad, it's makin' you mean
Like in the middle of Life magazine
Bouncin' around a pinball machine

And there's something on yer mind you wanna be saying
That somebody someplace oughta be hearin'
But it's trapped on yer tongue and sealed in yer head
And it bothers you badly when your layin' in bed
And no matter how you try you just can't say it
And yer scared to yer soul you just might forget it
And yer eyes get swimmy from the tears in yer head
And yer pillows of feathers turn to blankets of lead
And the lion's mouth opens and yer staring at his teeth
And his jaws start closin with you underneath
And yer flat on your belly with yer hands tied behind
And you wish you'd never taken that last detour sign

And you say to yourself just what am I doin'
On this road I'm walkin', on this trail I'm turnin'
On this curve I'm hanging
On this pathway I'm strolling, in the space I'm talking
In this air I'm inhaling
Am I mixed up too much, am I mixed up too hard
Why am I walking, where am I running
What am I saying, what am I knowing
On this guitar I'm playing, on this banjo I'm frailin'
On this mandolin I'm strummin', in the song I'm singin'
In the tune I'm hummin', in the words I'm writin'
In the words that I'm thinkin'
In this ocean of hours I'm all the time drinkin'
Who am I helping, what am I breaking
What am I giving, what am I taking

But you try with your whole soul best
Never to think these thoughts and never to let
Them kind of thoughts gain ground
Or make yer heart pound
But then again you know why they're around
Just waiting for a chance to slip and drop down
"Cause sometimes you hear'em when the night times comes creeping
And you fear that they might catch you a-sleeping
And you jump from yer bed, from yer last chapter of dreamin'
And you can't remember for the best of yer thinking
If that was you in the dream that was screaming

And you know that it's something special you're needin'
And you know that there's no drug that'll do for the healin'
And no liquor in the land to stop yer brain from bleeding
And you need something special
Yeah, you need something special all right
You need a fast flyin' train on a tornado track
To shoot you someplace and shoot you back
You need a cyclone wind on a stream engine howler
That's been banging and booming and blowing forever
That knows yer troubles a hundred times over

You need a Greyhound bus that don't bar no race
That won't laugh at yer looks
Your voice or your face
And by any number of bets in the book
Will be rollin' long after the bubblegum craze
You need something to open up a new door
To show you something you seen before
But overlooked a hundred times or more
You need something to open your eyes
You need something to make it known
That it's you and no one else that owns
That spot that yer standing, that space that you're sitting
That the world ain't got you beat
That it ain't got you licked
It can't get you crazy no matter how many
Times you might get kicked

You need something special all right
You need something special to give you hope
But hope's just a word
That maybe you said or maybe you heard
On some windy corner 'round a wide-angled curve
But that's what you need man, and you need it bad
And yer trouble is you know it too good
"Cause you look an' you start getting the chills
"Cause you can't find it on a dollar bill
And it ain't on Macy's window sill
And it ain't on no rich kid's road map
And it ain't in no fat kid's fraternity house
And it ain't made in no Hollywood wheat germ
And it ain't on that dimlit stage
With that half-wit comedian on it
Ranting and raving and taking yer money
And you thinks it's funny
No you can't find it in no night club or no yacht club
And it ain't in the seats of a supper club
And sure as hell you're bound to tell
That no matter how hard you rub
You just ain't a-gonna find it on yer ticket stub
No, and it ain't in the rumors people're tellin' you
And it ain't in the pimple-lotion people are sellin' you
And it ain't in no cardboard-box house
Or down any movie star's blouse
And you can't find it on the golf course
And Uncle Remus can't tell you and neither can Santa Claus
And it ain't in the cream puff hair-do or cotton candy clothes
And it ain't in the dime store dummies or bubblegum goons
And it ain't in the marshmallow noises of the chocolate cake voices
That come knockin' and tappin' in Christmas wrappin'
Sayin' ain't I pretty and ain't I cute and look at my skin
Look at my skin shine, look at my skin glow
Look at my skin laugh, look at my skin cry
When you can't even sense if they got any insides
These people so pretty in their ribbons and bows

No you'll not now or no other day
Find it on the doorsteps made out-a paper mache
And inside it the people made of molasses
That every other day buy a new pair of sunglasses
And it ain't in the fifty-star generals and flipped-out phonies
Who'd turn yuh in for a tenth of a penny
Who breathe and burp and bend and crack
And before you can count from one to ten
Do it all over again but this time behind yer back
My friend
The ones that wheel and deal and whirl and twirl
And play games with each other in their sand-box world
And you can't find it either in the no-talent fools
That run around gallant
And make all rules for the ones that got talent
And it ain't in the ones that ain't got any talent but think they do
And think they're foolin' you
The ones who jump on the wagon
Just for a while 'cause they know it's in style
To get their kicks, get out of it quick
And make all kinds of rnoney and chicks

And you yell to yourself and you throw down yer hat
Sayin', "Christ do I gotta be like that
Ain't there no one here that knows where I'm at
Ain't there no one here that knows how I feel
Good God Almighty
THAT STUFF AINT REAL"

No but that ain't yer game, it ain't even yer race
You can't hear yer name, you can't see yer face
You gotta look some other place
And where do you look for this hope that yer seekin'
Where do you look for this lamp that's a-burnin'
Where do you look for this oil well gushin'
Where do you look for this candle that's glowin'
Where do you look for this hope that you know is there
And out there somewhere

And your feet can only walk down two kinds of roads
Your eyes can only look through two kinds of windows
Your nose can only smell two kinds of hallways
You can touch and twist
And turn two kinds of doorknobs
You can either go to the church of your choice
Or you can go to Brooklyn State Hospital
And though it's only my opinion
I may be right or wrong
You'll find them both
In the Grand Canyon
At sundown


Bob Dylan

[april]

14. Oh Yes !

[fishwax]

26. that's a great piece

ftr, there are two lines missing from your transcription, after "or you can go to the Brooklyn State Hospital":

You'll find God in the church of your choice
You'll find Woody Guthrie in Brooklyn State Hospital

:bounce:
:applause:

[Tunkamerica]

30. I didn't transcribe this, just copy and pasted.

But when I gave the talk, I did it by hand since the internet wasn't nearly as full as it is now.

[elias7]

6. whoops!!!

maybe you're just not familiar with his work...to say "ridiculous" implies to me that maybe a trip to the library is in order...

[Jim Warren]

8. Quite familiar

and a trip to the library might be a good; might I suggest perusing something other than the DVD and CD sections.

[Fiendish Thingy]

12. If you're familiar with Dylan's lyrics/poetry

Such as "It's alright ma", "Lonesome Death of Hattie Carroll", "Masters of War", I find it odd that you would dismiss them as "pop songs", rather than poetic lyrics of profound impact.
Just because Dylan had songs like "Rainy Day Women" "Lay Lady Lay" and "Quinn the Eskimo" in the pop genre, doesn't mean he isn't a poet deserving recognition and praise.

What contemporary poets do you admire and feel are more deserving of the Nobel Prize?

[Lars77]

16. Just because he has a guitar doesent disqualify him from being a writer or poet. Jeez.

[marasinghe]

17. i get what you're saying; but i wouldn't class "Lay Lady Lay" or "Mighty Quinn", as just pop songs.

here's a rather meaningless, childish poem by John Keats, one of the great English romantic poets - written for his little sister. it's still got something about it. Dylan can move people with any of his songs; IMO.

There was a Naughty Boy - by John Keats

There was a naughty boy,
And a naughty boy was he,
He ran away to Scotland
The people for to see.
And there he found
That the ground
Was as hard;
That a yard
Was as long;
That a song
Was as merry;
That a cherry
Was as red;
That lead
Was as weighty;
That fourscore
Was as eighty;
That a door
Was as wooden -
As in England
So he stood in his shoes
And he wondered,
He wondered,
He stood in his shoes
And he wondered.

[YellowCosmicSun]

10. He's the greatest Poet of the 20th Century. I'd say he's deserving.

[Tom Ripley]

24. Pound and Eliot would disagree

[provis99]

28. Pound was a hack, a copycat, and a proto-Nazi.

[Tom Ripley]

39. Thank you for your fine and detailed analysis of the work; you are truly a scholar

[YellowCosmicSun]

58. Dylan eclipsed them both in depth and breadth.

[Tom Ripley]

25. But reading is sooooo hard!

[mdmc]

3. he is worth it

[wial]

5. Allen Ginsberg considered him

his poetic successor, and a student greater than the teacher. That should be good enough for anyone.

[greybear]

9. Dylan

Met the man, and he deserves the honor. His songs are "forever" literature. Just read the lyrics to "Blowing in the Wind"

His statement:

In June 1962, the song was published in Sing Out!, accompanied by Dylan's comments:

There ain’t too much I can say about this song except that the answer is blowing in the wind. It ain’t in no book or movie or TV show or discussion group. Man, it’s in the wind—and it’s blowing in the wind. Too many of these hip people are telling me where the answer is but oh I won’t believe that. I still say it’s in the wind and just like a restless piece of paper it’s got to come down some ...But the only trouble is that no one picks up the answer when it comes down so not too many people get to see and know . . . and then it flies away. I still say that some of the biggest criminals are those that turn their heads away when they see wrong and know it’s wrong. I’m only 21 years old and I know that there’s been too many . . . You people over 21, you’re older and smarter.

[marasinghe]

11. always said Dylan is the Shakespeare of our generation.

take his lyrics from any time:

"It's All Over Now, Baby Blue"
"A Hard Rain's A Gonna Fall"
"Blowing In The Wind"
"Stuck Inside Of Mobile"
"Lay Lady, Lay"
"Farewell Angelina"
"Like A Rolling Stone"
"All Along The Watchtower"
"Subterranean Homesick Blues"
"Silvio"
"Brownsville Girl"

or, whatever.

never be another.

[SteveG]

19. One of my favorites

Senor

Senor, senor, do you know where we're headin'?
Lincoln County Road or Armageddon?
Seems like I been down this way before.
Is there any truth in that, senor?

Senor, senor, do you know where she is hidin'?
How long are we gonna be ridin'?
How long must I keep my eyes glued to the door?
Will there be any comfort there, senor?

There's a wicked wind still blowin' on that upper deck,
There's an iron cross still hanging down from around her neck.
There's a marchin' band still playin' in that vacant lot
Where she held me in her arms one time and said, "Forget me not."

Senor, senor, I can see that painted wagon,
I can smell the tail of the dragon.
Can't stand the suspense anymore.
Can you tell me who to contact here, senor?

Well, the last thing I remember before I stripped and kneeled
Was that trainload of fools bogged down in a magnetic field.
A gypsy with a broken flag and a flashing ring Said,
"Son, this ain't a dream no more, it's the real thing."

Senor, senor, you know their hearts is as hard as leather.
Well, give me a minute, let me get it together.
I just gotta pick myself up off the floor.
I'm ready when you are, senor.

Senor, senor, let's disconnect these cables,
Overturn these tables.
This place don't make sense to me no more.
Can you tell me what we're waiting for, senor?

[marasinghe]

20. +me.

:toast:

[countryken]

22. Dylan's literary influence

Senor is a great example of Dylan in the late '70's. His work in the '60's influenced me to take up the guitar and ultimately led to my love of folk music - folk being a large umbrella that encompasses everything from bluegrass to blues to Americana. Hell, he influenced a whole generation of singers and songwriters. I view a lot of his material in the '60's to be poetry, but as time went on, his highest standard seemed to become 'good songs', not quite poetry. Nowadays it seems he struggles to meet that standard - or perhaps he just isn't trying anymore. I think he may have deserved the award at one time, and while he'd certainly qualify for a lifetime achievement award, I don't think Nobel hands them out. There are so many brilliant songwriters and poets and guitar players out there whose material deserves so much attention, yet they're playing rooms of 40 patrons. I don't think Dylan has done enough recently to warrant the honor.

[Crowman1979]

15. Good, just don't let him sing.

[Highway61]

21. Finally! Deservingly so.

Some of the posts here make my head spin. Certainly don't know the extent of ALL his works. He is amazing and still keeps going. I had no doubt he would receive the Nobel eventually. I am so happy to hear this.

[Tom Ripley]

23. I love Bob Dylan's songwriting (n/t)

[provis99]

27. Does he write like he sings?

Mumble, mumble, whine, mumble, mumble, whine...

[Tunkamerica]

31. he's not as good a writer as you that's for sure. Take your style:

ignorant drivel, sarcastic remark, lame retread of a joke from 40 years ago.

Genius!

[dipsydoodle]

33. He sings

in manner influenced by those who influenced him and those who influenced them. Wanna criticise them too ?

[JCMach1]

29. Nobel has TRULY jumped the shark...

Singer yes...

Literature... No freaking way.

[No Elephants]

41. He is not a singer, but a singer-songwriter. If it weren't for his writing, no one would have

recorded that voice.

I am no musical expert, but I don't think he sang off key. That is the very best one can say about his vocal gifts.

[JCMach1]

44. That doesn't make it poetry...

Thank goodness he didn't win...

Love him as a musician AND even as a singer.

[astral]

65. That is a good point. His songs are best learned to be loved when

they are heard by someone else singing them. Take Simple Twist of Fate, I never heard the song when Dylan sang it, but then I heard Joan Baez sing it and I went, oh wow! THAT's how the melody goes. I never knew!

I never thought about him as a Nobel-Prize poet, and he was never one of my FAVORITE singers, although some of his songs grew on me and I love to try to play them myself when nobody can listen in on the train-wreck sound. But, now that I think about it, I do believe he deserves it.

I think another thing about Dylan, is he paved the way for many male folksy-singers to believe they can sing to audiences even if they can't sing, but female singers don't have the same privilege, things are changing all the time, but I still see it being that way for the most part.

[dipsydoodle]

32. Rec'd in the hope he gets it this year

He's been nominated every year since 1996 : http://www.poets.org/viewmedia.php/prmMID/5817

If he'd never sung any of what he's written and only the words were read then most would surely agree him to be a poet - an influential one at that.

[Nihil]

34. That's a very good point ...

> If he'd never sung any of what he's written and only the words were read
> then most would surely agree him to be a poet - an influential one at that.

My first thought on seeing this thread was :wtf: but then, after mentally
separating the singer from the writer, I now agree with you.

[dipsydoodle]

36. I do have a slight advantage

inasmuch I've got the book with ALL of the lyrics.

My first knowledge of him was late '62 / early '63. A school friend who played guitar had already seen Dylan at the McColl's Singers Club. Picture of those days here : http://www.workershistory.org/linked_docs/NWLHJ27_Harker_Lee.pdf I know from a documentary that McColl, the purist, restricted what Dylan played/sung to more or less traditional english folk. I can only assume that it was "after hours" that my friend and others got to know and mimic Dylan's own material and acoustic playing style which I'm guessing included Elizabeth Cotton's NC flatpicking.

[Little Tich]

35. Not this year, the Nobel Prize went to

Tomas Tranströmer, the swedish poet. Sorry guys.

[dipsydoodle]

37. Oh fuck.

:(

[Lars77]

38. Well i guess the haters here can celebrate.

It´s crazy how much effort people are willing to put down in shitting on something they do not agree with.

[No Elephants]

42. Bit of irony there.

[Jim Warren]

53. Critical thinking

now is called being a hater. Get some new material.

[unionworks]

43. Joni Mitchell

...is gonna be really, really pissed off. Don't blame her. If you know the story, Dylan was a real asshole to her.:eyes:

[Enrique]

45. I knew she criticized him recently

I didn't know about him being an asshole to her...

[unionworks]

48. she was singing

Her new album (Blue?) at some mansion Geffen owned, just her and acoustic guitar. Dylan and the Band were there. Not listening, talking loudly and making fun of her. Dylan "fell asleep"and started snoring loudly. Mitchell stopped playing and left in tears. This was from someone who was there.

[unionworks]

66. The D.U. theme song

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qC7Ls6ixJQ

[HighContext]

46. They're both fake, pretentious 'artistes'.

Bob Zimmerman, fake fuck extraordinaire. Also, was a real prick to people 'lower' on the totem pole (ever seen 'Dont Look Back'?)
And Joni Mitchell. Who I never could stand.

[unionworks]

49. beats the shit

Out of hank williams jr., you wanna talk about a fake fuck.:rofl:

[Cherchez la Femme]

47. Pop lyrics are not poetry

The Nobel is becoming the equivalent of the Grammy, just more devolution.

[unionworks]

51. Bob and Joni

Were folk singers, not "pop" singers (gag). "Both Sides Now" isn't poetry? "Desolation Row" isn't poetry? I respectfuly beg to differ.

[Cherchez la Femme]

55. They may be entertaining, they may be meaningful in some cases but

to elevate them with Pinter, Seamus Heaney, Isaac Singer, Toni Morrison, Naruda, Bellow, France, TS Eliot, Faulkner, Hemingway, Sinclair Lewis, Kipling, Yeats, Sartre? I think not.

Many songs don't stand alone as a poem. However many of Dylan's and Mitchell's pieces could well stand upon their own; as did others lyricists such as Jim Morrison, whose Horse Latitudes is magnificent.

Yet I still aver they are not in the class, considering their total body of work in Literature of those I winners I mentioned
along with the many I've left unmentioned.

IMO close, in some cases

...but, as examples, Quinn the Eskimo and Lay Lady Lay? Is that Hemingwayesque? Would Sartre write, and be proud, of either? And that's not an aberration for Dylan; such was his standard.
It's good in it's own way, in the medium it was meant to be...

Still, no Nobel cigar.


If a singer/songwriter MUST be named, I would pick Leonard Cohen any day over Dylan, so I beg to differ with you too. To each our own. :shrug:

[unionworks]

59. outstanding post!

Last summer, during months of unemployment, spent lots oftime at library with all the other unemployed.Started reading Sartre's "Roads to Freedom" and couldn't stop, read the whole trilogy. Also readSteinbecks "Grapes of Wrath". I get what you are saying, though not in full agreement. And didn't Sartre refuse to accept this very award?

[marasinghe]

64. opinions on the arts = totally subjective.

to me: Faulkner boring as hell. Kipling keeps plugging his childish platitudes: '.... pro patria mori', etc., in much of his major works; tho' must say i love "Kim". again, Hemingway - just to me - was a great story-teller; a great writer - not so sure. even Tolstoy's stuff - while i personally feel "War & Peace" the greatest novel i've read so far; i classify "Anna Karenina" with Thackeray's "Vanity Fair", as unreadable. as i said earlier - this is all subjective.

ah, well; at least Bob's still not had to grace the company of that arrogant frigging psychopath, Kissinger.

[Jim Warren]

54. Indeed

If one applies critical thinking to a discussion, you are labeled a "hater".

Lord, how lazy.

[Cherchez la Femme]

56. Your 'critical thinking' and analysis comes to one word:

"Hater"?

Dear goddess, and you call ME Lazy! :rofl:

[Cherchez la Femme]

60. Just read the entire thread & got the jist of your post

Finally, correctly.

LOL on me too!

Apologies to you.


Please read edited as:

'Critical thinking' and analysis comes to one word:

"Hater"?! :rofl:


It is amazing the um... passion (Vicious vociferousness?) though...
you'd think there are a few here who are actually Dylan's mommy.

[unionworks]

50. joni mitchell

Survived polio, an abusive marriage, gave a daughter up for adoption because she was broke and struggling, and wrote songs that were about real life, not her monied friends. She more than payed her dues.

[unionworks]

52. time for.....

...my bootheels to be wanderin'! (Wheeeze) but, for a treat, go to youtube and check out Joni doing a song called "The Way It Is". This was on CBC in black and white, before she was well known. The purity of her voice and soulful deliverance literally made me choke up. And the message of the song hits hard. Your welcome, D.U.ers! :yourock:

[pitohui]

57. that's hilarious, i hope he wins

dylan is no "literature" and i don't get the folks who like him for the lyrics, i'm a performance buff and i feel the voice is a MAJOR part of the experience but this would be fairly hilarious

anyway they say there's a curse on writers who win the literature prize so let dylan take the cake and they can continue to write unmolested

dylan deserve recognition, i just never thought of literature as the place to go for it

he is a musician and a performance artist in my humble point of view and always has been...i have to say, he is the one artist i have seen many many times in performance and it is always an experience

[JVS]

61. Swedish poet wins. I guess Bob will have to go back to making Cadillac ads

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/07/arts/swedish-poet-wins-nobel-prize-for-literature.html?_r=1&smid=fb-nytimes&WT.mc_id=AR-SM-E-FB-SM-LIN-SPW-100711-NYT-NA&WT.mc_ev=click

[unionworks]

63. the chimes of freedom flashing

...want to see it for real? Go to youtube and search "occupy wall street poem to my father" and look at this kid standing in front of Washingtons statue. Take a long hard look, America. These are your brave children.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

67. Dylan writes good songs for other people to do.

The words are good but his voice is so whiny and monotonous. he really had no melody, it was all in the words.

Examples: All Along the Watchtower-Hendrix, Mr. Tambourine Man-Byrds, Blowin in the Wind which PP&M did.

John Lennon's answer to dylan was You've Got to Hide Your Love Away, which he performed in "HELP!" the movie

Lennon and Dylan could both write words that maybe ya didn't know what they meant, but they sounded profound.