Reports: Gaddafi killed in gun battle

[brooklynite]

Source: Al-Jazeera

A senior NTC official has said that Muammar Gaddafi has died of his wounds after being captured near Sirte.

Earlier, Jamal abu-Shaalah, a field commander of NTC, told Al Jazeera that the toppled leader had been seized, but it was not clear whether he was dead or alive.

"He's captured. He's wounded in both legs ... He's been taken away by ambulance," Abdel Majid, a senior NTC military official said.

Majid also said that Abu Bakr Younus Jabr, the head of Gaddafi's armed forces, was killed during the capture of Gaddafi.


Read more: http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/10/20111020111520869621.html

[newfie11]

1. good

[Journeyman]

2. When people die, say only good about them. . .

"Muammar Gaddafi is dead."

"Good."

[trumad]

3. .

Hitler is dead

Good

[bhikkhu]

66. He died in battle (or very shortly thereafter)

apparently that's what he wanted.

[kestrel91316]

70. He was a coward. He died fleeing.

[tabasco]

131. He was runniung away and hit with an airstrike.

Not my idea of "dying in battle." LOL. :dunce:

[pnwmom]

185. Generals aren't often among the foot soldiers.

That doesn't mean they're not engaged in battle.

[tabasco]

231. Yeah, it's nice to be "engaged in battle"

miles away from any shooting. Good thing for the French Air Force.

[bhikkhu]

191. Ah well, so much for something good to say

I think guys like that consider it "good" to die in battle, though I think its just stupid when you have every opportunity to avoid it - going back to all the ways out he might have had before he lost control of the country.

[obamafor2012]

83. I think what Obama pulled off was a good thing

I heard that we targeted his convoy with airstrikes, and that the fighters got him and he was wounded. First Obama got got Osama Bin Laden and now Qadaffi. He has killed way more top terrorists than Bush ever did, and faster.

[tcaudilllg]

172. Although you probably lack the ability to regret those words,

others will.

[bhikkhu]

192. Its up to the Libyans now

Which could go either way - but its all up to them. No regrets for doing the right thing.

[obamafor2012]

206. I agree, getting rid of him was good for democracy.

[hue]

4. Gaddafi dies of wounds: NTC official

from Reuters: still unconfirmed but looks like consistent reports from NTC.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/20/us-libya-idUSTRE79F1FK20111020

His killing, which came swiftly after his capture near Sirte, is the most dramatic single development in the Arab Spring revolts that have unseated rulers in Egypt and Tunisia and threatened the grip on power of the leaders of Syria and Yemen.

"He (Gaddafi) was also hit in his head," National Transitional Council official Abdel Majid Mlegta told Reuters. "There was a lot of firing against his group and he died."

it was only a matter of time...

[yellowcanine]

43. "His killing, which came swiftly after his capture near Sirte" Chilling phrase right there.

I hope it is just sloppy/inaccurate reporting because as written that sounds as if the prisoner was executed. Even for brutal dictators captured on the battlefield, that is still a war crime.

[harmonicon]

75. Another assassination on our hands.

This, apparently, is the new American Way. It's disgusting. These so-called rebels have a history of executing prisoners, so it wouldn't surprise me if they executed their most high-profile prisoner either.

[totodeinhere]

93. I wouldn't blame America for this. He was killed by resistance fighters and the US had nothing to

do with it. And the air strike against his convoy was carried out by NATO forces, the US forces.

[harmonicon]

106. HAHAHAHA!!!!

Their civil war wouldn't even have existed without the US. You have to be fucking joking.

[totodeinhere]

108. No I'm not joking. The resistance started before NATO got involved.

Benghazi fell before NATO was involved.

[bhikkhu]

215. Tunisia had much more to do with the existence of their civil war than the US

Though without us, it would probably look more like Syria - protests, arrests, torture, massacres, more protests, arrests, torture, and more massacres, more protests, more arrests, more torture...and so on.

The Libyans seem to be well aware of the long misery we helped them avoid, and thankful for the help.

[harmonicon]

221. Not those Libyans who were killed by our bombs.

Not the black Libyans who were killed by the militant racist "rebels" for, you know, being black. Not the Communist Libyans. Not the Libyans who liked their lives in a country they'd grown up with, despite any faults it may have had, who were raped, maimed, etc. by royalists, islamists, or economic right-wing gangs.

I do agree that it would likely look a lot more like Syria without our intervention, and that's fine by me. I don't want for the brutalization or torture of anyone to happen, but I especially don't want my taxes paying for it. Same goes for assassination and murder.

[PurityOfEssence]

109. And you know this for a fact.

How? Nobody else seems to really know what happened, yet you do.

[totodeinhere]

114. There are numerous news reports out now discussing what happened. And there is graphic

video showing him the custody of the resistance fighters. And the fact that air strikes were carried out by NATO is well documented.

Footage aired on Arab TV networks showed Gadhafi was captured wounded but alive in Sirte. The goateed, balding Gadhafi is seen in a blood-soaked shirt, and his face bloodied. Standing upright, he is shoved along by a crowd of fighters on a Sirte roadside, chanting "God is great."

Gadhafi appears to struggle against them, stumbling and shouting as the fighters push him onto the hood of a pickup truck.

"We want him alive. We want him alive," one man shouts before Gadhafi is dragged away, some fighters pulling his hair, toward an ambulance. Later footage showed fighters rolling Gadhafi's lifeless body over on the pavement, stripped to the waist and a pool of blood under his head.

http://preview.tinyurl.com/5wqqbcv

[totodeinhere]

145. Correction - The convoy was apparently also hit by an American drone. n/t

[unionworks]

122. Please

...stop.

[harmonicon]

129. Do you mean, "give up"?

Sorry. Not going to happen. I've spent too long in my life thinking that murder and political assassinations are wrong to give up now.

[unionworks]

174. god bless you

...I wish I still had your faith in manunkind.

[mbritton]

168. I am so tired of this nonsense.

I am sorry you don't have the stomach for death. Neither do I....But when you are a person who craves and loves to inflict harm and/or death on a society, you need to be dispatched to your maker, quickly and decisively, and let society go on WITHOUT you. Its long overdue for these dictators to go the hell away... one way or the other. Its 2011 people... lets get with the program.

[unionworks]

178. agree

...fuck ALL of them. Plain and simple.

[harmonicon]

187. I don't have a stomach for death, but I do know the difference between war and murder/assassination.

Was the assassination of presidents Lincoln and Kennedy acceptable to you? Both of those men commanded armies in wars, one in a civil war. Like Gathafi, people disagreed with them, right or wrong. However, like Gathafi, murder was not the solution. I think if assassination becomes acceptable, it's only a matter of time until it's common practice in the US as well.

[ellisonz]

222. Welcome to DU!

:donut:

[jzodda]

188. You don't like it too bad

there is nothing you can do about it and more people will support it than be against it.

[harmonicon]

198. wow....

Do you realize that your sentence could be followed by the phrase, "said the leader of the lynch mob."? Fucking frightening. The world I live in is sad and depressing, but I imagine that yours is fucking dark and hellish. When I read shit like what you've written, I seriously think that I should never have children if that's what the "civilized" world is becoming.

[JimDandy]

149. Apparently executed by the Libyan Rebels who captured him

Video on Al Jazeera showing him bloodied, but alive and walking in the custody of the Libyan Rebels who captured him, has been removed and replaced by video of him lying dead on the ground, surrounded by rebels. Early reports stated he was pinned up against a truck, then, staggering from leg wounds, was dragged and pushed along by the rebels, who hit him with the butt of a gun in his head, pulled at his hair and then surrounded him in a circle. When the Rebels finally cleared back a cell phone video showed him clearly dead, lying on the ground in the midst of the circled rebels, his shirt ripped away from his chest, and blood pooling under his head. Two bullets, one in the chest and one in the head are said to have killed him.

I'd say that sounds like an execution. Premature? Justified? Libyans will have to decide for themselves.

[tcaudilllg]

173. Dead by SKYNET, apparently.

If he'd died without our hand in it, I wouldn't have shed a tear. But we meddled where we didn't belong, and I am certain this nation will ultimately pay a price for its interference. The only question is what shape the price will take.

Be alert: if drones can kill dictators, they can kill American civilians as well.

[harmonicon]

186. Can? Haven't they already? nt.

[tcaudilllg]

234. That loser didn't count.

They could just as well have expatriated him.

[harmonicon]

236. So what's the point of citizenship then?

What about the teenage son that was killed in a backyard by a "drone"? (isn't it cute that it's not like people did the killing - "the drone did it! me?! oh, I'm just some kind of technician. I don't kill anyone")

[plumbob]

5. Another leader who trusted the US. Why do any of them do it?

Well, another day in Paradise. Thank gawd all Americans have jobs, health care, and good education and we have money to blow on useless overseas wars.

[LittleGirl]

6. Al Jazeera? That figures.

I am serious about that. Al Jazeera contains journalism that is missing in this country. I am going to dump American Media and get my news from them.

[slay]

7. +1

watch their stream from the link in my sig line anytime. :hi:

[ellisonz]

8. Al Jazeera is pretty awesome.

Their international reporting can be really substantive compared to CNN. They also have more sources in the Middle East generally.

[kag]

72. Faint praise...

Sesame Street can be really substantive compared to CNN.

[ellisonz]

211. That's your opinion.

Some of us like well put together video journalism from around the globe...

[barbtries]

21. this is where i get mine.

DU the best source i've found. it takes me everywhere.

[FailureToCommunicate]

30. +1!

[tavalon]

48. Been there for a while

They are far, far better at their jobs than our sycophant lap dog media talking heads. They have something lacking in American media, I think it's called integrity.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

65. You don't have to agree with everything said on that channel

to admire their journalism. Comparing al Jazeera to CNN is like comparing On the Waterfront to Dukes of Hazzard.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

9. A letter to Goldman Sachs:

Yo, rich guys.

You had something in common with Khaddafi. Both of you controlled BILLIONS, Both believed that money buys you security, and both of you are wrong.

Unless you mend your ways, you, too will lose your power and your riches.

People power always wins out in the end.

[ellisonz]

10. He's definitely dead. NTC's Mustafa Abdul Jalil will address Libya shortly.

[Nye Bevan]

11. Good. He can hang out in Hell with OBL (nt)

[WranglerRog]

12. So who'll deliver the eulogy?

John McCain or Lindsey Graham????

[jakeXT]

58. McCain singing the democracy tune

Senator John McCain, top Republican on the Armed Services Committee, said it was time for the United States to deepen its support for Libya's move toward democracy and safeguard human rights.

"The death of Muammar Gaddafi marks an end to the first phase of the Libyan revolution," McCain said in a statement. "Now the Libyan people can focus all of their immense talents on strengthening their national unity, rebuilding their country and economy."

It was not clear if McCain had independent confirmation of Gaddafi's death.

The United States led the initial air strikes on Gaddafi's forces but quickly handed the lead over to NATO, while taking a secondary role to Britain and France.

http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFN1E79J07Q20111020?pageNumber=2&virtualBrandChannel=0

[L. Coyote]

195. Bush is sending his "Mission Accomplished" banner via FedEx, can't go himself

for fear of arrest on charges of war crimes and torture :rofl:

[Pacifist Patriot]

13. Forgive me while I refrain from dancing on another grave.

[Mnemosyne]

115. ...

[JimDandy]

152. You don't have to dance on his grave

to be happy for the Libyan people who have been oppressed by his dictatotship for such a long time.

But, now let's work on improving the plight of our own oppressed, jobless, poverty-stricken people here!

[Freddie Stubbs]

14. If true, poor little Hugo Chavez has lost a friend

[WinkyDink]

15. Did I miss the part about Chavez's being a terrorist or sponsoring any? Well, maybe if you're an

oil-igarch.

[Freddie Stubbs]

22. 10/1/2011: Hugo Chavez sends solidarity to Gaddafi, Syria

(Reuters) - Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez said Saturday he was praying for Libya's deposed leader Muammar Gaddafi and also sent a message of solidarity to Syrian President Bashar al-Assad against "Yankee" aggression.

Chavez -- who has inherited Fidel Castro's mantle as Washington's main irritant in Latin America -- views the wave of uprisings in the Arab world as Western-led destabilization and has been a strong ally of Gaddafi.

"The Libyans are resisting the invasion and aggression. I ask God to protect the life of our brother Muammar Gaddafi. They're hunting him down to kill him," he said.

"No one knows where Gaddafi is, I think he went off to the desert ... to lead the resistance. What else can he do?"

more: http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/02/us-venezuela-chavez-idUSTRE7901QW20111002

[harmonicon]

76. Though, unlike the US, Venezuela did not send him financial and military aid. nt.

[bread_and_roses]

176. So when Chavez allies with monsters that's bad, but when we do it is ?

Gaddafi represented himself as a friend to the people and an enemy to Western Imperialism and hegemony. Thus the regard for him in parts of Africa where he sent aid. Chavez also opposes Western (especially US) hegemony and imperialism. So he allies himself with those who espouse the same, even if they are brutal, oppressive, repressive, torturing, murdering monsters. I think that's ethically indefensible, and violates the very principles he claims to hold.

However, the US has a long and terrible history of same - Uzbekistan (sp?) anyone? Of course, that was in the Bush years, so we condemned it, but what about Yemen? Syria? others I'm not thinking of at the moment - right now?

If Chavez's support of Gaddafi is reprehensible, what about ours for similar brutal, repressive, torturing, murdering regimes who, for instance, shoot live ammunition into crowds of citizens demanding change?

[msanthrope]

49. I wonder if Hugo will name a stadium after his friend. nt

[jefferson_dem]

16. Good riddance...

And chalk up yet another massive foreign/security policy achievement for the Obama Administration.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

18. You said something "good!"

Agreed, in every way.

Some people here think that we treated Libya as an ally. Nothing could be further from the truth. Libya, despite what McCain, Rumsfeld, Cheney, and others might have said in public, or in photo ops with Khaddafi.

He was a cruel, deadly, and unpredictable tyrant. The world is better off without him. Now, if Libya can hold its shit together long enough to prevent another strong man from taking it over, even better.

[Historic NY]

94. Yup, I hear NK is next to come back to the table.

[Name removed]

136. Deleted message

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[LuvNewcastle]

17. Send in the next tyrant.

[rfranklin]

34. 100% USDA Approved!

Someone of the stature of Karzai in Afghanistan for sure!

[rayofreason]

80. Unfortunately, the most likely outcome. n/t

[stockholmer]

97. Egypt already has theirs (the military junta). That 'freedom uprising' has worked out wonderfully

:sarcasm:

[Shining Jack]

135. +1

[bhikkhu]

216. The possibility of free democracy, vs the certainty of tyranny...

its not a hard choice, and I think the Libyans made it with their eyes open. Best hopes them!

[Cognitive_Resonance]

19. Good riddance. He would have continued to terrorize Libya and the rest of Africa. nt

[walerosco]

25. "terrorize Africa" my ass

I bet you are one of those who think Africa is a country. Truth be told, he did not terrorize any African country, he infact gave employment to lots of African from professors, to engineers to unkilled workers. Its only the west who did not like him. Yes, he was a tyrannt, but unlike 90% of the African leaders/tyrannts/elected presidents, he actually brought his people together and made improvement on the lives of his people.

American does a lot of good in the world but he should try and mind his business with the internal affairs of other countries. Especially since he back worse tyrannts in Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Baharain and Jordan

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

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[tblue]

121. We are no better than anyone else.

This party can be just as ugly as Republicans. How tragic.

[Celefin]

128. Heads on pikes never go out of fashion

I went to the Guardian and was greeted by a mangled, bloody corpse on the front page
with the news that the Libyans, French and Brits are squabbling over who gets to
claim the kill. Civilization is such a thin veneer.

I go to DU and people are dancing on the grave of another murdering bastard who has outlived his usefulness.
And they cheer the very same people for doing the killing that prop up other, currently useful, murdering bastards.

Yay for another corpse.
Yay for medieval traditions.
*shrug*
But then I'm obviously just a Gaddafi supporter and an Obama basher.
Hell, even my little Denmark is so PROUD right now because they got to do a little dirty work.

[tblue]

200. Oh guy! I'm glad you're there.

I feel so alone. This place is really turning my stomach.

[Celefin]

227. Well, thanks.

Usually I just get put on 'ignore'.

But you're not alone (at least not entirely).
Barbarism is barbarism, no matter who does it.

It's kind of amazing that so many people don't seem to get
that the disturbing thing is not the disposal of a brutal dictator,
but the accompanying primal bloodlust on display by supposedly
civilized, progressive people. And that is by no means
exclusive to the US but universal.

[pnwmom]

101. Almost thought I was on the FreeRepub with all the Obama bashers here.

His backing of the international coalition drew plenty of opposition from the Freepers, who never want him to succeed at anything.

[tblue]

120. Who's bashing Obama?

I don't like bloodlust. So do me something. You got your death. Go rejoice.

[pnwmom]

184. You haven't been reading this thread very thoroughly. n/t

[tblue]

201. Probably not.

I can't stand the gloating over a dead man's body. Just can't stomach it.

[RaleighNCDUer]

63. He was one of the original 'third world', back when third world meant

a bloc that was neither Western nor Soviet.

Today, of course, third world means 'poverty stricken shithole', because the PTB refuse to acknowledge there is any third pole in the world politically.

[ieoeja]

67. Except Chad.

Otherwise, he dealt well with African countries.

[JimDandy]

156. I bet you lack reading comprehension.

"He would have continued to terrorize Libya and THE REST OF AFRICA"

[Maine-ah]

179. "unkilled workers"

sorry, but your typo made me :rofl:

[tortoise1956]

217. Are you HIGH?

1. Libya's standard of living lagged behind most of the other north African countries under Gaddafi.
2. He and his family hijacked billions of dollars for themselves.
3. He sent assassination teams out to murder dissidents in other countries.
4. He was directly responsible for the Lockerbie incident.
5. Much of the population lives in poverty, especially in the eastern section.
6. He hated the Berbers, and did his best to wipe out their culture.

This man didn't deserve to live. His own countrymen passed sentence on him, as it should be. If you don't like it, fine. That's your right. However, at least stick to the truth when you discuss him.

[leftstreet]

85. Whatever happened to 'deposing' leaders? 'Exhiles,' things like that

I must be getting old

[Honeycombe8]

110. You mean "exiles"? He could have gone into exile with tons of $$$....

but I guess power was more important to him, or his arrogance made him think he'd win in the end. If it were me, and I were looking at unrest and revolution and possible death in my country,on the one hand, and a life of luxury on an island somewhere, on the other hand, I'd sure as heck take the luxury route. But that's me.

[Name removed]

137. Deleted message

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[Davis_X_Machina]

20. If he had only pumped his oil, and let the multinationals in...

...he'd still be alive.

Oh, wait, he did. But it was all about the oil.

[tblue]

123. Yup.

The whole thing is nauseating.

[AngryAmish]

23. Gaddafi has joined the choir invisible...

[Firebrand Gary]

24. It makes me a little uneasy that there is still no confirmation.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

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[Demstud]

50. Good

Now if only we could teach the bankers and mega-corporations not to mess with the American people.

[harmonicon]

77. Damn, I really want your post to be satire.

Please say it is. If it is, it's fucking brilliant. If it's not, I'm going to cry, because we are living in fucking bizarro world now. Reading through this thread, it could honestly go either way.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

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[riverwalker]

32. that photo is an old photoshop

actually from the OBL raid. Been floating around internet for months.

There is a real photo from today of wounded Ghaddafi here: http://twitpic.com/732clm

[FailureToCommunicate]

35. Thanks. I hadn't done enough sleuthing. CNN is showing the one

you found.

[Javaman]

45. Same here.

no body, no crime.

I'll wait for outside confirmation.

[BadtotheboneBob]

26. Hopefully, the NTC can hold it all together...

... and form a viable stable nation. Keeping the various factions; ethnic, tribal, Islamist etc, from turning on each other over who gets to control the reins (read: oil) will be no mean feat.

[dipsydoodle]

27. Now being reported that a NATO airstrike was involved in this

when two vehicles convoys were hit.

[hifiguy]

31. I can't say his death is much of a loss to the world.

Good riddance to bad rubbish.

[riverwalker]

33. Guardian UK live Blog with latest

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/middle-east-live/2011/oct/20/syria-libya-middle-east-unrest-live#block-36

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

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[riverwalker]

47. AlJazeera english live

http://english.aljazeera.net/watch_now/

[FarLeftFist]

36. Once it's on the tombstone the world may finally know how to correctly spell his name.

[FailureToCommunicate]

40. Pretty easy: " SHAR "

[brooklynite]

41. Presimably, the correct way is in Arabic...

...the problem is different translations.

[Maeve]

44. That would, indeed, be correct eom

[Maeve]

42. Maddow looked at that a while back--use the spelling on his passport

Gathafi

[uppityperson]

74. They do, but Arabic doesn't translate properly.

[yellowcanine]

39. From initial reports - which may of course be wrong - it sounds as if he might have been executed.

Wounded in both legs - and then ends up dead from a head shot?

I just hope these reports are not accurate. While Gaddafi certainly brought most of what he got on himself, executing captured prisoners is still a war crime.

[riverwalker]

52. heres the 18 yo fighter who shot him

and took his golden pistol

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=220906257975198&set=a.134799406585884.28447.133738650025293&type=1&theater

[jefferson_dem]

46. Screen Grab here:

[msanthrope]

53. Sic semper evello mortem tyrannis....nt

[Posteritatis]

161. Sic aliquando tyrannis, at least. (nt)

[joeybee12]

51. Pretty sickening that right up until the Revolution we wer trying to cozy up to him....

A very bad man, but we've got our share here.

[fascisthunter]

54. well he was useful to America for a long time...

until recently... one less psychopath.

[RollWithIt]

56. Uh, not really... he was somewhat useful to the Bush Administration

Previous to that he was no friend to the US.

[dd2003]

57. How to distract the people 101

Im guessing we got the market crash on monday

[jakeXT]

60. Death of Libya's Gaddafi avoids awkward trial

LONDON, Oct 20 (Reuters) - Muammar Gaddafi's apparent death from wounds received during the fall of Sirte means a long and complex trial that could have divided Libya and embarrassed Western governments and oil firms will be avoided.

A senior National Transitional Council (TNC) military official said the former Libyan leader died after capture having earlier been injured in a NATO airstrike on a convoy fleeing the town. Earlier reports and rumours of his capture had sparked celebrations across Libya and helped oil prices lower.

Had he been taken alive, there would have been potentially acrimonious debate over whether he should be tried in Libya or extradited to the International Criminal Court, which issued a warrant for his arrest along with his oldest son and spy chief earlier this year.

Any trial might have given the flamboyant, often idiosyncratic Gaddafi a podium from which to harang both Libya's new rulers and Western powers, as well as potentially try to embarrass them on issues they would rather forget. As Libya was nudged back from international isolation in the last decade, international oil companies signed deals worth billions.

http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFL5E7LK4P120111020

[AverageJoe90]

140. Says who?

[Posteritatis]

163. Of course it can't be the Libyan rebels taking Sirte, but rather an American plot!

Oy, I love this whole reflexive attempt to deny anyone outside of North America agency of any sort.

[Odin2005]

59. Good riddance to bad rubbish.

Go mourn, Gaddafi apologists.

[stockholmer]

96. I fail to see, in fact utterly so, how you equate critiques of deep empiric skulduggery with a so-

called 'pro-Gaddafi' or apologistic behaviour set. Binary thinking is so Bushian.

[Bucky]

61. I don't believe he's dead

He's still out there... resisting

[jakeXT]

62. The US is still checking, what we need is a proper sea burial..

US officials work to confirm report of Gaddafi's death

http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFN1E79J07Q20111020

[ButterflyBlood]

64. Well it's over then. Good riddance.

Congratulations to the people of Libya.

[Bragi]

68. All in favor of brutal killing, say AYE!

Nay from me.

I'm not really good with this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=HFHsX7xl-uE&skipcontrinter=1

Above link is from Cdn. Globe and Mail reporter @DougSaunders:

If you want absolute (if gory) confirmation, here's detailed video of Gadhafi's body being rolled over & kicked around is.gd/nNNeMw

[totodeinhere]

112. Maybe someday we can have a world without war. But until that happens the brutality of war will

continue. n/t

[Bragi]

118. This was just another mob murder during another oil war

My point is that it ought not be cheered by anyone who claims to care about the rule of law.

[Bragi]

235. Check out what happened in Nuremberg

The end of WW2 was a high tide for the notion of the rule of law and justice.

We have regressed since then, and re-embraced brutality and carnage as though they constitute justice.

[jzodda]

189. AYE!

[kestrel91316]

69. Ding, dong, the witch is dead!

[Tarheel_Dem]

71. K & R

:kick:

[Kolesar]

73. Cue Glenn Greenwald to release a batshit crazy editorial about today's event

A.M.F.!

[JCMach1]

78. sic temper tyrannis

[BadtotheboneBob]

81. It's 'Semper', as in 'Always'...

But, I agree with your sentiment. "Thus always to Tyrants"

[JCMach1]

224. Oops Latin dyslexia

:)

[tortoise1956]

218. Possibly the best comment I've seen yet

and very appropriate in this case.

[riverwalker]

79. his last moments alive video

Warning: Extremely graphic.

http://feb17.info/news/breaking-video-gaddafi-in-the-last-moments-before-his-death/

[no limit]

82. I don't buy the idea that these guys always die in a gun battle

Wouldn't surprise me if they simply shot the guy while he was unarmed.

[mnhtnbb]

84. Watch out for clicking on videos showing last moments alive--froze my puter.

[Name removed]

86. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pnwmom]

102. Welcome to DU, Small Family Farmer!

[Honeycombe8]

113. I think that's because the French took the lead in that area, while the U.S.

was a supporter. There had been rumblings that the French had been unhappy that the U.S. didn't take a more prominent role, but Obama wanted us to "help" and not "lead" in that area.

But there's no doubt that it was NATO, and not an individual country, that was the leader. And it was the revolutionaries, looks like, who actually caught & killed the Big Evil Eye.

Having said all that, how proud are we that we at least were involved? Way proud! Despite some Republicans being against our involvement at all in Libya.

But McCain and Graham were very pro-hawkish in that area from the start, and if I recall, wanted the US to get involved sooner than we did. But I might be misremembering that.

[Fearless]

87. It didn't have to come to that.

Hopefully he realized that before death.

[irislake]

88. Celebrate! Celebrate, America. More blood spilled,

more cause for rejoicing!

[DallasNE]

89. Another Solid Win For The Obama Administration

You would never know it from reading these boards but Obama has racked up a solid record of major achievements during his nearly 3 years in office. Much of it has been undoing the mess Bush left behind. The compare and contrast is wildly favorable. That is not to say that there hasn't been some disappointments but they pale in comparison to the very solid record of achievements.

[deacon]

90. He proved how terribly wrong bush was with his approach. n/t

[deacon]

91. ...and now that will end our involement there, 2 down, libya and iraq. n/t

[Small Family Farmer]

92. Some dissapointments?!?!?!?

That's kinda' like saying a skunk smells bad (unbelievable understatement)

Here are a few of the "disappointments" I've got with the Obama Administration.

- Selecting a total tool of agribusiness as his Sec of Agriculture (that one really upsets me)
- Extending the Patriot Act without removing any of the violations of the Constitution
- Pushing for mandatory DNA testing of those arrested for crimes, regardless of whether they have been convicted. Another egregious violation of personal liberty and an obvious violation of the Constitution.
- Allowing a $60 billion sale of arms to the Saudi Arabian dictatorship, the largest arms deal in history
- Using the shield of "state secrets" to protect the Bush administration from criminal prosecution
- Failing to disclose visits by industry executives while crafting health care reform legislation (sounds a lot like Cheney's actions when he formed the energy policy for the Bush Crime Family)
- Authorizing the assassination of US citizens abroad, an unprecedented declaration of executive power and a obvious flaunting of the Constitution
- Awarding $250 million in government contracts to Blackwater (now Xe)!?!?!?!?!?
- Allowing a dramatic increase in the use of drone bombers in Pakistan, resulting in hundreds of civilian casualties. A "major" move towards making war more "sanitary" and less painful for American Citizens. Not to mention rewarding the Military Industrial Complex with megabucks.

Please feel free to list the "major achievements" you feel offset these sell outs to corporate America and treat the Constitution like "toilet paper."

[mvd]

143. That assassination of American citizens thing still disturbs me a lot

It seems awfully arbitrary and biased, with questionable legality. Obama got some things done like more diplomacy and not letting the depression get worse, but a lot more could have been done to TRULY shake things up. The sad thing is that the President hardly tried to do those things.

[DallasNE]

166. Poster Boy

For "You would never know it from reading these boards". Would you rather have Herman Cain as President and more Supreme Court judges like Clarence Thomas? He is the current leader in Republican polls.

[Name removed]

171. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pnwmom]

183. Any educated and FAIR Democrat knows that Obama never had single day of

a Democratically controlled House and Senate. The most Democratic Senators we ever had was 58, plus Bernie Sanders, who reliably voted with the Democrats; and Joe Lieberman, who had defeated a Democrat to win election as an Independent and often sided with the Rethugs. And then, after a few months, Ted Kennedy died and was replaced by a Republican.

The other thing all educated and fair Democrats would acknowledge is that Obama isn't a dictator, and couldn't force every Blue Dog Democrat in vulnerable states to vote as he wished.

[Name removed]

197. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

138. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bpj62]

95. Lockerbie Scottland 1988

Not a single post mentions Libyas direct involvement in the bombing of Pam Am flight 107 over Lockerbie Scotland. Over 200 people were killed mostly Americans. I do not mourn his death. I just hope that he is not replaced be some other tin pot dictator or by an Islamic Regime.

[pnwmom]

105. Amazing how many supporters he seems to have here. Thank you

for remembering an important piece of history that seems to have been forgotten by many.

[Celefin]

125. Iran Air Flight 655

Using that logic here, Reagan's or his vice president George H.W. Bush's assasination would
have been cheered on this board. Gaddafi actually admitted Libyan responibility for Lockerbie eventually.

*sigh*
He may have deserved death, but why is everybody who doesn't celebrate another killing
in an endless line of killings labeled a 'Gaddafi-supporter'?
He was a murderous bastard for sure. So are many others we actively support.

[hack89]

141. A tragic accident versus a deliberate act of terrorism - and you can't see the difference? nt

[Celefin]

146. Actually I can.

Although it's highly unlikely it was an 'accident', it wasn't planned in cold blood beforehand.
And it most likely wasn't an order from the President, but an act of one overly aggressive commander.

What made me compare the two was the memory of the famous
'I will never apologize for the USA, no matter what'
which is basically saying, 'even if we didn't order it, we're fine with it'.

I concede.
It's still not the same.
I'm just so, so tired of people rejoicing and dancing on graves while we support other dictators that are even worse than this one.
How about just being grateful that this war maybe is over?

[AtheistCrusader]

169. Amazing how you conflate concern over war crimes to 'support'.

I don't support him at all. But I also won't condone the execution of a prisoner, no matter how heinous his behavior may have been.

[tortoise1956]

219. Amazing how nobody talked about Lockerbie

That may have been the worst of his crimes, but it wasn't the only one. He was a murdering tyrant who oppressed his people and stole their money for himself and his family. He met his end at the hands of Libyans, not foreigners.

This wasn't murder or assassination, it was justice.

[DreamSmoker]

98. Here he is Folks:

http://english.aljazeera.net/video/middleeast/2011/10/2011102014201566639.html

Now lets move this Country forward...

[emilyg]

99. Another Nobel Peace prize in the works.

[harmonicon]

107. I'm a little slow on the newspeak uptake. Where can I subscribe to your newsletter? nt.

[pnwmom]

100. So many will be disappointed that one of Obama's policies worked.

Again.

Backing a real international coalition was a good call.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

103. Jump on the death bandwagon!

:woohoo:

:patriot:



Define "worked" for me. My mind is totally open.

[pnwmom]

104. Ghaddafi earned his death. Read your history. n/t

[tblue]

124. Everything is relative. History is written by those who have conquered.

I don't have any affection for Ghaddafi, but I don't believe what the mainstream American corporate media says about anything anymore.

To the victor goes the spoils. Enjoy your celebration.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

232. So we're getting rid of "worked?"

[tblue]

119. I know. I don't understand celebrating death.

:puke: Reminds me of those Republican debate audiences. I really can't stand it.

[demgrrrll]

127. Reading through these comments I was thinking the same

thing

[sakabatou]

111. Something's kinda funny though

"Second Chance," a 1980s sitcom, predicted this:

http://youtu.be/1lw2tRvTmVM

[Maat]

116. I feel so much safer now ... NOT!

Apparently, I've been paying for NATO to boat in all kinds of mercs, weapons and supplies, while people starve on U.S. streets.

Hey, Obama, tell me why this is such a good idea. Geez.

[mvd]

117. While Gaddafi was not good for Libya, who now takes over?

The U.S./NATO better assist in the aftermath since they were involved. Since we're after dictators, why not Saudi Arabia's? Because they have oil and help protect the big money interests. You're right - I think the U.S. needs to be much more concerned with the domestic front.

[Maat]

157. Yep; that was my point.

[jmowreader]

126. I'm kinda shocked, actually...

to go through this whole thread and not see one marijuana reference.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

158. ok, well now we have a marijuana reference, thanks,

There were two obvious ways to ease the pain of the gunshots to Qaddafi's legs.
1. Medical marijuana
2. A bullet in the head

Tough choice.
:hi:

[tabasco]

130. Good news. Good riddance to a murderous despot!

Well done NATO and Libyan fighters. :toast:

[Faithful One]

132. I feel sorry for Hugo Chavez

his "friends" are dying or being arrested on a daily basis.

Assad'll be next.

Either way, bravo to the NTC. Gaddafi's reign of terror, torture and torment is now terminated.

[harmonicon]

144. Let the new "reign of terror, torture and torment" begin!! nt.

[ProgressoDem]

133. I guess I'm going to have to stay away from DU for the afternoon.

I like that in the real world, caterwauling Gaddafi apologists are few in number.

[Name removed]

134. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[defendandprotect]

139. As we've seen in Egypt, Libyans will need constant vigilance to ensure that their

uprising isn't subjected to takeover by new dictators -- and new oppressive military

regimes -- and in the case of Libya that we now see the US depart/NATO depart -- !!


We all have to understand that MIC and TORTURE aren't things that protect us --

they THREATEN US --!!

[mvd]

142. It isn't a good sign that they apparently killed him while captured

I don't think those are the kind of people we should be propping up. I'm not unhappy about Gaddafi being gone, but I'm also not all excited about it.

[defendandprotect]

147. "One of Muammar Gaddafi's guards shot him in the chest," said Omran Jouma Shawan.

At the time of capture, Gaddafi was already wounded with gunshots to his leg and to his back, Bakeer said.

Other government fighters who said they took part in Gaddafi's capture, separately confirmed Bakeer's version of events, though one said the man who ruled Libya for 42 years was shot and wounded at the last minute by one of his own men.

"One of Muammar Gaddafi's guards shot him in the chest," said Omran Jouma Shawan.


I'm sure we'll hear other reports -- but that's the one at this moment --

and likely that was Gaddafi's instructions -- if captured alive, kill him.


????????????





http://news.yahoo.com/libyas-gaddafi-caught-hiding-rat-164753890.html




Meanwhile, I think that the behavior behavior of our troops should be a bigger

concern to us -- but as Sy Hersh has told us clearly, this is the most brutal and

violent army we have ever raised!


And, we have forces in 700 locations internationally?

[mvd]

148. Yeah, many conflicting reports

Even if the rebels didn't do it, I'm not convinced yet that they'd be much better in the long run. Democracy can't easily be pushed in a country where it is foreign.

[defendandprotect]

154. Democracy is allegedly "native" to the US ... ho, ho .... ROFL

Let's keep close watch over our own warmongers, MIC, CIA, assasination teams --

and troops about whom we have many unhappy reports!

And let's not forget that Kadaffi was the US's guy -- and that he was heavily armed

by UK, Russia -- and that US had a contract which hadn't yet been filled at the time

of the uprising!

Who's responsible in the end for the damage done to the Libyan people?

A dictator like Kadaffi or the countries who armed and protected him?

[pettypace]

150. one less kinna

Keep em coming.

[malthaussen]

151. Wounded in both legs

... and shot while trying to escape? Wouldn't be the first time.

Never liked the man, would have gladly done him myself. But I wouldn't be celebrating about it, nor would I nail his head to my wall.

-- Mal

[WaltKowalski]

153. Bad guy but

we don't even know who the "rebels" are.

[AzWorker]

155. Captured alive, executed by shot to left temple.

Per the video and new stills

[eridani]

159. And how many civilians in Sirte?

Remember the 2/15/2003 sign that said "Saddam Hussein is NOT the only person living in Iraq"? Killing civilians in Sirte is good. For Qaddafi to do it is bad. Got it.

[penndragon69]

160. GOOD LUCK, people of the FREE LIBYA!

I hope you do it right!

[Submariner]

162. Democratic Party FAR SUPERIOR at military strategy than republicans could ever hope to be

Case closed.

[classysassy]

164. Let freedom ring

one more for the greedy murderers of the west.Wake up citizens none of us are safe.

[Iggo]

165. We got him!

Yes!

[Swagman]

167. I am utterley disgusted by some on here who ahould know better

Obama, Bush, Blair, Clinton all shook the hands of Ghaddafi when he was our dictator,

Now he's Chavez's dictator.

[AtheistCrusader]

170. And NOW we will discover what stuff the rebels are made of.

Hope we don't have any buyer's remorse.

[tcaudilllg]

181. Mark my words: Saif will lead Libya to freedom.

This is the kind of stuff that makes a national hero.

And we'll see the people who were complicit in Gadhafi's rule start trying to pull strings.

[SkyDaddy7]

175. GRAVE DANCING BELOW!!

:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo:

Qaddafi got off easy compared to what he did to so many other people during his lifetime!

[ColesCountyDem]

177. No tears from me.

I'd rather have seen him tried in a court of law, but rough justice is better than no justice.

[neoconn]

180. Does anybody else find celerating death as horrific..

I assume (never really know the truth due to lousy, perception changing US news) that Gaddafi was a bad guy but who the hell are the rebels? No one knows what kind of leadership they will turn out to be. All this meddling in other countries business has never turned out to be a good thing. There are consequences to all actions and we will see what unfolds. Regardless of Qaddafi's behavior, his death is undignified and barbaric. I kinda believe in trials and juries. You know that stuff we say we believe in . I don't want to see the picture of a dead Qaddafi. It sickens me. I am not a Qaddafi lover so don't start spewing that whack crap.

[pnwmom]

182. 270 civilians dying on that bombed Pan Am Flight is barbaric.

[neoconn]

190. 1033000 violent deaths due to the Iraq War is barbaric.*

(Opinion Research Business survey - 1,033,000 deaths as a result of the conflict - March 2003 to August 2007)*

Why don't you drag whoever did that in the streets?

[L. Coyote]

196. Children dying because US President Reagan bombs your home is barbaric and horrific

But, has anyone learned anything?

[Psephos]

203. News to you: "Gaddafi’s dead daughter ‘alive and well’ "

Don't worry, he snookered a lot of other people, too, with that one.

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Gaddafi+dead+daughter+alive+well/5237222/story.html

[L. Coyote]

204. Total Libyan casualties are estimated at 60, 300 bombs, 48 missiles

President Ronald Reagan ordered a strike on Libya on April 14. Eighteen F-111F strike aircraft of the 48th Tactical Fighter Wing, flying from RAF Lakenheath supported by four EF-111A Ravens of the 20th Tactical Fighter Wing, from RAF Upper Heyford in England, in conjunction with fifteen A-6, A-7, F/A-18 attack aircraft and EA-6B Prowler Electronic Warfare Aircraft from the aircraft carriers USS Saratoga, USS America and USS Coral Sea on station in the Gulf of Sidra, struck five targets at 02:00 on April 15, with the stated objective that their destruction would send a message and reduce Libya's ability to support and train terrorists. Reagan warned that "if necessary, shall do it again."<9>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_El_Dorado_Canyon

... 60 tons of munitions dropped. ... Some bombs landed off-target, striking diplomatic and civilian sites in Tripoli, while the French embassy was only narrowly missed. Some Libyan soldiers abandoned their positions in fright and confusion, and officers were slow to give orders. Libyan anti-aircraft fire did not begin until after the planes had passed over their targets. Twenty-four A-6 Intruders and F/A-18 Hornets launched from aircraft carriers bombed radar and antiaircraft sites in Benghazi before bombing the Benina and Jamahiriya barracks. A number of bombs missed their targets and hit residential areas, along with a number of Western embassies in Benghazi ...

Total Libyan casualties are estimated at 60, including casualties at the bombed airbases. Among the casualties was an infant girl, whose body was shown to American reporters and who was claimed to be Gaddafi's recently adopted daughter. However, there was skepticism that she even existed. Twenty-five years later, during the 2011 Battle of Tripoli, after Gaddafi's residence was seized by the rebel forces, it was proven that there was such a daughter, but that she survived ...

[al bupp]

205. Hana survived the attack, her "death" was Gaddafi propaganda

As was so much of what came out of the Gaddafi regime, this story turns-out to be apocryphal.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/blogpost/post/gaddafis-daughter-hanas-death-in-1986-all-a-hoax/2011/08/26/gIQAaUVFgJ_blog.html">Gaddafi’s daughter Hana’s death in 1986 all a hoax?

[L. Coyote]

207. And look how this distraction is always hauled out whenever someone discusses these murders.

Again "Total Libyan casualties are estimated at 60" because US President Reagan tried to kill Libyian leader Qaddafi.

[Psephos]

214. actually, you were the one who brought up "children dying" when "someone bombs your home"

Which is why I and others mentioned the "distraction." Don't misconstrue that as support for the 1986 bombing. It's emphatically not.

Instead, it's a reminder that official news and statements from Gaddafi's reign were propaganda at best, and those who consume propaganda do so at their peril.

The wiki article you posted says, "Among the casualties was an infant girl, whose body was shown to American reporters and who was claimed to be Gaddafi's recently adopted daughter." The "killed infant girl" was a huge news item at the time, and memories of it resonate. Why? Because that created an image of a real, helpless person, rather than a bunch of faceless corpses. That's the image you tapped into, intentionally or not.

As far as the news-consuming public is concerned, regarding the other people killed, Stalin's words apply: one death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic. Ugly but true.




on edit: typo

[joshcryer]

226. I chose to view it as celebrating the end of a civil war, not a single mans death per-say.

It would be wrong to celebrate these events otherwise. Most people dancing in the streets in Libya are glad it's over and that the specter of a revival of Gaddafi's minions will not be over them.

[DarwinCares]

193. I was told to respect the dead.

Then I grew up.

Good riddance to him.

[ellisonz]

212. Welcome to DU!

:donut:

[Little Tich]

194. Good riddance.

[Name removed]

199. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Little Tich]

202. Gaddafi's death will end further bloodshed.

The circumstances of his death are still confusing, but it's indisputable that he was taken alive and later died of gunshot wounds. There is some very graphic footage of Gaddafi dying and later dead. It would have been better if he'd been captured alive so that he could have stood trial for his crimes. As for Misrata, it will be rebuilt.

[Kalidurga]

209. Dupe

N/T

[Kalidurga]

210. So this is what happens when I am out all day registering for school...

I can't say that I am sad that Quadafi (don't cross this line) is dead. But, I also can't help thinking we have some interesting things going on in NYC with police brutality and such(so far I haven't heard they have killed anyone) and we have millions working for slave wages (7 and whatever is not a living wage) and we have RWers blaming the poor for our economic problems much like the Jewish people were blamed for Germany's economic problems(or you can substitute the gays or any number of other groups). SO I wonder what kind of violence could fester within our borders. I am really not sure how I feel about this. I am glad that he wasn't killed by our troops and it appears he was actually killed by one of his own men, so no worries about war crimes here...the whole situation is a bit much to process for me right now.

[Iggo]

230. Bookmarking.

[L. Coyote]

208. Does this mean his life wasn't covered as a "civilian" under the NATO mandate?

[ellisonz]

213. He wasn't a civilian. Civilians don't carry gold plated pistols.

[Iggo]

228. They do in this country.

[Psephos]

220. Does this look like a civilian to you?

[Iggo]

229. Looks like he manages Boy Bands.

[L. Coyote]

233. Looks like PhotoShop to me.

Of course, you knew that :rofl:

[ButterflyBlood]

223. Uh, the Colonel wasn't a civilian

That should be pretty obvious.

[Major Hogwash]

225. Khaddafi is dead.

And for the first time since 1969, Libya is free of that scumbag dictator forever!!
Hallelujah!