High cost of first-year community college dropouts

[alp227]

Source: SF Chronicle

Like making a bad bet in Vegas, taxpayers gamble hundreds of millions of dollars a year on community college students who quit as freshmen - many in California.

A new study shows that from 2004 to 2009, Americans spent nearly $4 billion on full-time students who dropped out after one year and didn't transfer.

California's first-year dropouts benefited from $480 million in tax-funded grants and allocations in that time - more than any other state - says the study, "The Hidden Costs of Community Colleges," from the nonpartisan American Institutes for Research in Washington, D.C.

"I'm not in favor of pumping more money into the existing system where so many students don't succeed," said Mark Schneider, author of the report and vice president of the research group.

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/10/20/MNI81LJ6N0.DTL

[kiranon]

1. Community Colleges may have succeeded where high schools didn't

to teach their first year students how to read, write and navigate the world a bit better. Some kids mature a bit later and that one year could have made all the difference. It all depends on what one means by "success".

[ieoeja]

33. It is more about classroom disruption than maturity.

Everybody at the college WANTS to be there. So you don't have students disrupting the classroom because they don't want to be there in the first place.

Chicago Community Colleges announced last year that they were cancelling their remedial courses. I don't know if they really did, but a *lot* of people were pissed for the reason stated above. A lot of people go to community college to get the high school education they just couldn't get because of all the violence and other disruption in high school.

[shanti]

35. and i now several young people

who are only attending college for the $$$ because they CAN'T FIND A JOB. i definitely believe that college isn't for everyone. would that it were....

[ieoeja]

51. That's why my first career position was rather slimey.

Before 1981 paying back student loans was optional. The Veterans Administration routinely handed out education loans to veterans who probably figured college wasn't for them, but they'd give it a shot. Undoubtedly, for some it did take and this was the first step in a lasting career.

But for most it was a failed experiment. And one they only took because they knew they did not have to pay it back.

Reagan ended that for non-veterans during his first term. At the onset of his second, he turned his eyes on the veterans. To make a long story short, I got my first job because someone figured they needed a programmer who didn't know the rules. And my job was to create an automated process to collect loans from people who only took the loans because they were told they wouldn't have to pay them back if things didn't work out.

At least I did one decent thing. I completely failed to refer them to the credit reporting agency. In part, because their instructions were horribly confusing. Had they been straight forward and in plain English (instead of insider jargon of which I was completely ignorant), I probably would have done it. But I decided to first skip to the part where I garnished their tax refunds. Then realized that had I reported them to the CRA, the VA would then have been forced to send 50% of the garnished tax refunds to the CRA despite the CRA having absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the collection.

So I did save the taxpayers that 50%.


The longer story would include my predecessors at the VA informing the White House that it would take 20 people 5 years to do the job. They were either making it too complicated, or following proper procedures it really would have required that much, or sandbagging in the hopes his successor would cancel the project before it ever hit the street. People don't take jobs with the gov't because they want to screw over their people. You can make a whole lot more money working in private enterprise if you want to do that. I found that gov't employees were there in large part because they wanted to serve.

[phantom power]

2. "The 17-page report doesn't advocate cutting off dollars to schools."

The 17-page report doesn't advocate cutting off dollars to schools. Instead, it urges colleges to do a better job of retaining students: making it easier for them to get the classes they need, rewarding colleges for reducing dropouts or penalizing them for failing to do so. It also encourages officials to gather better information about what's actually happening on their campuses.

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/10/19/BAI81LJ6N0.DTL#ixzz1bLCZeJjD

[ProgressiveProfessor]

3. It is clearly time to revist the "everybody should go to college" expectation

[LanternWaste]

6. Or the "not everyone should have an education" meme.

Or the "not everyone should have an education" meme.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

9. There is considerable difference between going to college and getting an education

Mike Holmes (the Canadian contractor guy) has a big push going for skilled trades. It is something that has fallen seriously out of favor in the US and that is a major mistake. We have killed most of our vocational training options in high school and most vocational training today is at for profit "schools".

Most Community Colleges have a Lit 101 course. Its normally Beowulf or equivalent. That is not what kids who are not sure what they want to be need to start with. A restructured approach that includes life skills may be a better way to go for those who did not leave high school college ready

[bloomington-lib]

22. +1

[surrealAmerican]

34. Oddly, trade skills are actually taught at many ...

... community colleges, at least around here they are. These are an excellent place to go for professional certification classes, that may or may not be part of an associates degree.

[Scout]

38. the community college near me has an excellent reputation

with trade skills courses, certification classes, and associates degrees. they are also heavily involved with the programs of the United Association of Plumbers/Pipefitters/Sprinkler Fitters and HVAC techs.

they also offer of course the full range of everything else you'd expect at community college, plus a very diverse "Lifelong Learning" program of continuing ed and community ed.

i've taken many quite a few courses there over the years, to supplement my bachelors degree, and just for fun and interest.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

49. That is far from true everywhere

As I said earlier, it is a patchwork at best. Clearly this should be a focus for them but in places it is not.

[ingac70]

40. +1

[LanternWaste]

53. I imagine we often feel that other people should not entertain notions

I imagine we often feel that many other people should not entertain notions of higher education due to their stations or roles in life.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

55. It is not elitism, it is pragmatism

There is a substantive segment of students who are not going to do well in college. Reason vary tremendously; aptitude, attitude, lack of desire....And they are the ones being abandoned by higher education and relegated to McJobs and other unskilled labor. Something needs to be done. Fortunately some say their local Community Colleges are filling that need, but others like me do not see it locally. It clearly is a patchwork of coverage around the nation.

An approach structured to provide viable employment with the right levels of general education would be much more successful than what I have been seeing. If the student has an epiphany and finds that indeed college is for them, nothing stops them from continuing. If that doesn't happen they graduate with an AA or certificate of some kind that includes appropriate general ed that will support them in their choices and have the opportunity for employment in skilled trades, generally decent paying and often union.

No one is arguing to slam the door, just provide better options for those who are not college material for whatever reason.

[wellstone dem]

13. I heard recently that people who talk about

"not everyone is college material" should be asked, "Are your children college material?"

[TwilightGardener]

15. I think parents really do need to ask that. I have asked that about my own kids, who

are in high school--one is a senior and applying to colleges. It's a fair question. But there is a very well-founded fear (one that I share) that no degree = no future. This is why parents push their kids into community college.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

16. It is in part an ill founded fear

Skilled trades pay better in many cases than some college degrees. However, skilled trades have lost a lot of respect in the US, which is a serious problem.

[Marthe48]

21. Most skilled trades jobs can't be out-sourced

Maybe that's why skilled trades training has no respect? Workers, such as pipefitters, have unions, good pay, good benefits, and are therefore not popular with the people intent on destroying the middle class. So denigrate the training, look down on the jobs, then demand that foreign nationals be allowed to come here, because U.S. citizens aren't trained to repair plumbing and electrical infrastructure, and of course, the foreign nationals will come, get the jobs as lower paid, non union employees.

Hey parents, if you know how to make repairs, or work with your hands, show your kids. You'll have quality time with your kids, and you will make them self-reliant. I may not have a degree, but I can cook, bake, run power tools, finish drywall, garden, and who knows what else, because my parents showed me, then expected me to help around the house.

[raccoon]

46. I wonder if you're on to something there. nt

[raccoon]

45. Amen! nt

[CTyankee]

30. I' m not so sure. Society will always need skilled electricians, plumbers

and carpenters. If they are skilled at what they do, they are in great demand and can earn a good living.

[PassingFair]

50. As someone who suffers from a lack of diploma....

I want to make sure my two daughters get theirs.

One is away at college, and the other is telling
me that she doesn't think she "needs" college.

I'm stuck in a job I don't like because at my
earning level, I can't even get an interview
at other companies without a degree.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

56. That really seems to depend on the field

Skilled trades do not require degrees and can pay better than many white collar jobs. In the white collar world, a degree is pretty much required, sometime any degree will do. One of the best S/W architects I know has a Masters in Fine Arts. She was even published prior to getting her doctorate.

What does the one that does not want to go to college want to do? One of mine was academically more than ready but was still looking for her direction. Once she found it, she went to college since it was a requirement for the field. She loves what she is doing now though is scares the hell out of me sometimes.

[PassingFair]

57. She doesn't want to be a butcher, baker or candlestick maker...

I really don't see going into a field that requires
strength or dexterity.

She's pretty-much looking at a white collar future.


I'm in sales, and most corporations won't even consider
me for positions because I don't have a degree. I know
that I could by-pass that if I had an "in" somewhere, but
at my commission range, its next to impossible to be considered
without the diploma, ANY diploma.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

58. What is her area of interest?

My daughter became an EMT with a volunteer company. It lit her fuse. Got a scholarship, went the BsN route. She is now a helo qualified trauma nurse somewhere in "the suck".

Have you considered one of the diploma mills? Good option for mid life people for whom the sheepskin is a formality.

[PassingFair]

59. Yeah, I've considered it.

I've always been able to sell my way into a pretty good living.
The problem is that I don't have any faith in the "product" I'm
selling now.

The company that I've worked for
for almost 10 years has evolved
the product descriptions are
becoming more and more vague.

Many of my clients are unhappy with the returns
they get with the "new" products, and yet I am
being forced to sell them by quotas.

I need to find something to sell that I can recommend
whole-heartedly to people.


My daughter doesn't know WHAT she wants to do.
(She's 16, the 20-year old is majoring in psychology.)

[AnneD]

18. I am a School Nurse....

Our school seems to think everyone should go to college.....so much so that they have killed all our vocational classes.

The kids have to go to the community college to get vocational training. Don't think vocational training is valuable-just ask what an AC repairman makes in Houston Tx in the summer.

[TwilightGardener]

20. I think the problem is that they are expected to get associate's degrees, which

really is "college" (college-level algebra, psychology, English, etc.) and not a narrow, focused training program.

[TwilightGardener]

4. To be fair, these are often kids who didn't want to go to college AT ALL, but know

that they are doomed without SOME sort of degree. It doesn't mean they're college material, though, and it's a shame that they can't just work on the family farm, or head down to the factory, or work construction, like their grandparents probably did. Doesn't seem like there's anything out there for kids who don't have the academic skills to make it through college (besides the army, and I'm not sure they're hiring, either).

[ProgressiveProfessor]

11. There clearly need to be educational/training opportunities for those not academically inclined

Right now it is a patchwork at best.

[TwilightGardener]

12. Right. There has got to be something between college-educated professionals

and teenage burger flippers for such a large population--and it needs to pay enough, too. Health care-associated jobs seem to fill the gap (aimed at women, it seems), but those are still low-paying nowhere "careers" like dental assisting and medical assisting. Young non-college bound men--what are they to do?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

14. I am getting to be a big fan of Mike Holmes on this

He is the Canadian contractor with the TV show. He also has a foundation for encouraging young people to go into skilled trades which bring much of what you and I would want.

[TwilightGardener]

17. I am all for that. I think the vo-tech programs in high school need to expand and

serve kids better. I have several family members who made a decent living in skilled trades, and I have suggested it as a possibility to my own kids, should they decide they don't want to go to college.

[Xithras]

27. Umm, more than a quarter...

...of the students attending California Community Colleges, roughly half of the "straight out of high school" students who enroll, are there simply as a transfer step to a four year university. It's a brilliant way for California students to get into the Uni's they want.

Here's a simple example: UC Berkeley. Every year, tens of thousands of students across the state, country, and planet apply to UC Berkeley because of it's reputation. A percentage get in, but most don't. Straight A honor students are turned away.

Every year, a couple thousand California high schoolers, who want to attend U.C. Berkeley, instead register at their local community college and take two years of courses there. Some of these were B and C average students in high school, but really want to get into Berkeley for the prestige. If those students can complete their lower division coursework at a California Community College with sufficiently high grades, they are GUARANTEED admissions to Berkeley. Those kids who were C students in high school will get preferential enrollment over the straight A honor kids, if they can simply demonstrate an ability to flourish at a college level.


They are called Transfer Admissions Guarantees, and they are the ONLY way that California residents are guaranteed admissions to a UC or CSU. They get to skip the line, and transfer straight in as juniors (and get to skip out on two years of college debt in the process). At some of the CSU's, 50% of the incoming freshmen are TAG transfers. At some of the UC's (like Riverside), the numbers are also way up there. For California students wanting to get into some of California's elite universities, they are simply the smartest way to go.

So please don't paint these kids with that broad "don't want to go to college" brush. High school kids without transfer plans only make up about a quarter of the entire CC student body.

[TwilightGardener]

31. No, I understand that a lot of students get cheap general-ed credits and then

transfer--I didn't do it myself, but had friends who did. But many are there because they need something other than a four-year degree.

[shanti]

36. yes

the transfer guarantee. i benefited from it myself over 25 years ago. the program must be a good one if it's still around after that long!

[cynannmarie]

61. slight correction to this information

All you say is correct except for one detail (as far as I know unless it has changed recently): The TAG transfer program is not applicable to UC Berkeley or UCLA, but to most of the other UCs and all the CSUs. My son participated in this program and transferred from a community college to UC Davis at age 18 for his last 2 years (finished high school at 16). It was a great way to go-- he lived at home for the 1st 2 yrs, saved a lot of money on both tuition and living expenses, and was given an excellent foundation overall.

He was an A- student in high school, but his SATs were not high enough to get admitted to UC as a freshman (he took the SAT at age 15 when he had not had enough math yet by that time). One of the admissions counselors told us that the UCs prefer these TAG students--finding them better prepared and more committed, and that they have a higher rate of graduation than students admitted as freshman. Another advantage is that the community college teachers tend to be very focused on their students and teaching, whereas the profs at the UCs who teach the lower division courses are often less focused on teaching, and that the lower division courses at the big schools tend to be very large and impersonal. So the combination structure of 2 yrs at each type of school seems the optimum route for numerous reasons.

The only downside of the TAG program is that it is a bit complicated to find out all the information about which courses are required to complete before transfer, as each 4 yr school and certain majors have unique requirements and one must continually investigate this to navigate without problems--especially to actually get all the specified classes fit in in 2 yrs. My son made many visits to the counselor's office and several inquiries to the UCD dept. of his intended major to verify changing requirements. But is is doable, and highly recommended.

[FloridaJudy]

62. I don't think you can "guarantee" an admission to Berkeley

Granted, this was decades ago, but my grades were high enough that I was guaranteed an admission to UC - but not necessarily to Berkeley. It may be a huge school, but not huge enough to let in everyone who qualifies. For months I got letters from UC asking me if I would consider Davis, or Chico, or some other out-lying campus. They'd add "You can get in there right now, but your chances of getting into Berkeley are risky". I stood my ground, and fortunately I won the lottery.

I can't imagine things have changed that much. There are always going to be more qualified applicants than classroom spaces.

My own kid was not "college material". He goofed off in high school, dropped out the day he turned sixteen, took the GED the next day and passed it. He spent years working at places like Pizza Hut and Walmart. Then a few years ago, he got his act together and enrolled in a CC. He aced his classes, and his grades were high enough to guarantee admission to a public university in Florida. But he didn't get in the one he wanted. He took the second choice, and is now doing very well indeed academically.

CC's are great for second chances as well.

[dotymed]

5. I don't know about CA.

But I know that in Indiana, a Community College student has to borrow the money. It costs almost $50,000 to be a full-time student. This includes, books, living expenses...,borrowing the maximum. Then these students are saddled with this debt which they can never repay.

[Volaris]

7. 50 G's for a COMMUNITY COLLEGE? Please oh PLEASE tell me that's for the whole dammed Assoc. Degree..

and even then, that's ASTRONOMICAL. Jeezez the tuition at the one near my house (outside St.Louis MO) is 85 bucks per credit hour..50000 is...wow.

[dotymed]

19. One year at community college.

It is an "extension" of IN. Univ. in a small town.

[pezDispenser]

26. Link please

[bloomington-lib]

25. I went to a community college in Indiana

The program was 4.5 years, consisting of two Assoc. Degrees, costing a total of around $15,000. About half of that was paid for with grants and the rest through student loans.

I'm assuming dotymed is referring to IU East, which is a satellite school of Indiana University. I don't think it's technically a C.C. but people in Richmond treat it as such since they offer ADs. I went there also, though only for a year. I believe it was around $8000 for that year in the early 90's. Still too much though.

[pezDispenser]

42. one near my house is $76 per credit hour

to be fair, $317 if you are out of state, but I can't imagine many people go to an out of state community college.

[KamaAina]

8. Could this be any more slanted?

A "bad bet in Vegas"? Taxpayers "gambling"? This at a time when CA's community colleges are being decimated by the budget ax.

Note that "the report does not advocate cutting dollars from colleges" is buried down in the fifth graf. Also, of course California's first-year dropouts "benefited more than any other state" -- we have the most community college students by far! :dunce:

Bad Chron! :spank:

[L. Coyote]

41. Indeed. I eventually quit going to college, so did I waste all my time

after ten years :rofl:

So what if it is only ONE year. That's one year more education than before, a very good thing!!!!

[Greybnk48]

47. Exactly. Why is a year in college a waste of time and money

And why all the pejorative language that you point out? Terrible piece.

[immoderate]

54. I used to recommend taking a year of college to my students.

Some of my students weren't sure they wanted a four year college education. I told them, "Nobody says you have to stay four years. Try a year and see how you like it. It can't hurt you when you go for a job. And you might learn something."

How can taking a year of college level courses be a bad thing?:shrug:

--imm

[FreeBillClinton]

10. Community College is for reminding oneself why they didn't go to college in the first place.

[bloomington-lib]

28. Please elaborate

[iamthebandfanman]

23. Yikes, some of you are heartless.

I see some egos coming out on this thread , as if you are better than people who go to community college or even attempt to.

this notion that we should cut back is silly,

not every person who decides to try drops out.

my sister in law that was out of high school for 7 years is now back in school and on the deans list every semester .. and shes definitely using grants and loans to do it.

just because some people dont succeed is no reason to attempt to destroy the whole notion of trying or justification to poke fun at those who tried.

get over yourselves.

do i think we should tone down the 'everyone has to go to college!' talk? probably.
but dont you dare touch the money. everyone deserves a chance.

education/knowledge should be FREE anyway.

[Xithras]

24. Hmm. I've taught in California community colleges, and stories like these ignore important details.

First, nearly half of the students in the CCC system are over 25 years old. They are working adults who are simply re-entering college to gain skills needed for the modern workforce. They might be updating their computer skills, backfilling weak areas in their previous educations, or expanding their skills into new areas that didn't exist (or they weren't interested in) when they first entered the job market. I used to teach Java and C++ at two community colleges, and in every single class there was a subset of students who already had degrees or experience as programmers, but who had only previously worked with VB, or C, or Cobol and were trying to modernize a bit. Overwhelmingly, these students aren't interested in certifications, transfers, or degrees, but are instead just wanting to take a couple of classes so they'll qualify for a better/newer position. Although these students successfully complete the courses and improve their job skills, the state considers them "failed students" because they didn't achieve the arbitrary "certificate/degree/transfer" benchmark. People who take classes to update their skills, learn new languages, or otherwise expand their knowledge shouldn't be considered "failures" simply because their goals didn't match the goals of the state.

Second, state budget cuts have limited the ability of community colleges to offer remedial course materials for the students who need it. Community colleges have NO entrance requirements. People walk in the doors who left high school at 15 or 16, immigrants walk in who can barely speak English, and adult re-entry students walk in who may not have performed any algebraic equations in 25 years, and the California CC's are required by law to accept every one of them as students. The CC's tell them, "Don't worry, we'll get you into remedial classes that will catch you right up!" And then the student gets hit by reality...the community college system is so cash starved that it cannot afford enough remedial teachers, and the "remedial" student may have to wait a year or two JUST to get the remedial courses he needs to START his major program. That's incredibly discouraging. And why are the CC's so cash starved? Because they aren't funded like the CSU's and UC's with dedicated higher ed money, but instead get to compete for Prop 98 money with the elementary and high schools using the same convoluted "number of warm seats" method used in the public K-12 schools. Because the CC's get less money per student/seat and have much higher operating costs per class, this inevitably leads to huge class sizes and a minimal number of teachers. It also encourages community colleges to dedicate fewer resources to remedial classes, because their higher drop rate directly costs the school funding. It's far better to dedicate space and teacher time to the higher numbered courses with better student retention, so they can be somewhat assured of stable funding.

[FloridaJudy]

63. Too bad there's no "like" button here. eom

[benld74]

29. Send MY kid some of that $$$. We will use it in our CC for sure!

[sybylla]

32. If these students qualified for grants, they come from poor families.

There are as many reasons why a young man or woman from a poor family might drop out of college as there are M&M's in a pound.

To throw this statistic out there as if to say we need to end grant programs for freshmen or make these poor students who accept grants pay them back if they don't go on is ridiculous not only on its face but that there are liberals who are even falling for it.

[JI7]

37. 4 billion dollars in 6 years, and how about all the kids who DID do well and benefit

the ones who were able to go for a couple years before going to more expensive 4 year school so they were able to save money ?

i agree with those who say there have to be alternatives to going to college after high school. it shouldn't just be military or high school. vocational training is a good thing. especially for kids who aren't sure what they want to do. this way they can get a job in some area and if they decide to go to college later they can still do so but would have some job and money saved up .

[Politicub]

39. There were people in the small town where I'm from

who took grants, and had no intention to get a degree. Not sure if it's the same grants discussed in this article, or "retraining" funds that were part of the stimulus package.

In the end, it's them who lose out. But they feel like they got a few thousand for free.

I guess this problem was wider spread than I thought.

And even though people abused the system, I still think it was worth the loss since many people did put in the time and work to learn new skills or get an associates degree.

[pezDispenser]

43. which grant sends the money to the student

and not the school for tuition payment? We should address that issue first instead of cutting off money.

[Politicub]

44. I agree. The programs are worthwhile.

It's the way funds are dispersed that needs to be addressed.

I think the idea for the retraining grants was to get some money to cover some of your living expenses while in school. I don't have any statistics, but my hypothesis is that the vast majority of recipients used the grants as intended. And, the society is better off for them learning new job skills.

The rich pay their accountants and lawyers to find loopholes and defraud the system far more and in a more damaging way than the 99% could ever do, though.

[alcibiades_mystery]

48. I read the whole article twice, and still didn't find the retention RATE

The article says

Enrollment has soared by 25 percent in the past decade to more than 6 million students nationwide. Yet many of them don't finish.

How many? What's the drop out RATE?

Such waivers are given to thousands of low-income students each year.

Thousands? Out of six million? OK, then.

Then I read through the whole report. There are numerous section headings that scream "low retention rates" all over the place, "lack of success," and whatnot. I searched and searched for a rate. It wasn't until I got to the end of the report that I found something like a rate for students who "didn't return," 60% of whom had transferred, while 40% of that group dropped out. According to their data source, the drop-out rate causing this big kerfuffle is....

11.1%

Between graduation and transfers to universities, it seems that nearly 90% of community college students "successfully" use the community college to their benefit. Is their some other way to read this? And why doesn't the first line of the report say "According to our data vehicles, community colleges have a drop out rate of 11.1% among full-time, first year students." Wouldn't that be the logical place to start? I can see why the SF Chronicle reporter did not include the rate in her article: it was next to impossible to find in the 22 page report.

Why do you think that might be?

[XemaSab]

52. Compare and contrast with the high school dropout rate:

In 2008-09, 70.1 percent of public school students in California graduated from high school, up from 68.5 percent last year. The adjusted four-year derived dropout rate for the same school year is 21.5* percent, up from 18.9 percent last year.

[wordpix]

60. high cost of jail AND this dropout rate could be prevented with tutoring, mentoring in schools,

social service programs and jobs for the parents.

But we must keep the war machine going and subsidize King CONG (coal, oil, nuclear power, gas industries).

[Neoma]

64. Not everyone drops out because they don't want to be there.

I had to drop out of college due to health problems. And I'd definitely need remedial classes when I get back to college, because I've never had formal education through any type of schooling. Honestly, it's not a black and white world of successful people and people who simply want to be plumbers. And everyone going to college isn't a child! Imagine being out of school for 20 years, and needing to be re-taught the basics.

Personally, I think if anyone needs to start fixing the structure of education in this country, they'd start with funding adult education classes more and encouraging adults who have dropped out of high school to get their GED. We need as many educated adults as possible to help with this problem.