Up to 3000 killed in fuel train disaster

[Just Me]

-snip-

"It is true there was a large explosion in North Korea today," an official told AFP, requesting anonymity. "We are still trying to confirm other details."

A defence ministry official told Yonhap they had yet to confirm "the cause of the incident, the kind of explosion and how many died".

The entire area "was turned into ruins comparable to the aftermath of a massive bombing," Yonhap said, quoting witnesses.

-more-

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/04/23/1082616273448.html

I do believe this is a separate and distinct breaking news article from the previous one posted. I hope the moderators won't lock this,...but, oh well, they are in charge.

[54anickel]

1. Wow, took out the entire train station. More details in this article than

the other thread. Still not much coming out of NK though.

snip>
One report said the gas that one of the trains was carrying was a donation from China to energy-starved North Korea, locked in an 18-month standoff with the United States over its nuclear weapons drive.

snip>

An unnamed government source told MBC television the incident appeared to be no more than an accident.

"I doesn't look like this has anything to do with terrorism," he said.

China said that during his stay in the country, Beijing had agreed to supply aid to the Stalinist state whose economy is close to collapse following years of natural disasters and poor economic management.

[Just Me]

2. Initially, I thought "train wreck",...but now, I really do wonder,...

,...what the hell is happening. I am having huge difficulties imaging any "train wreck" that kills THOUSANDS of people and leaves a place looking like it was bombed.

Moreover, in the back of my mind,...I am thinking,...would anybody be willing to incite this wacko into a retaliatory action that would justify bombing this country off the face of the earth? Duh. Easy answer: "bring 'em on".

[renegade000]

3. well...if its two fuel trains

i suppose that would make a pretty big explosion

:nuke:

[Just Me]

5. I have never heard or seen of that kind of catastrophe,...

,...ever in my whole life. A train wreck producing the kind of mass destruction that looks like "a massive bombing" has certainly not occurred in my lifetime. I believe the closest killed less than a thousand people. Whereas, this one apparently killed several thousands of people,...and left evidence of something more than two "fuel" trains colliding.

I am very skeptical.

[Minstrel Boy]

12. I'm increasingly skeptical myself, though the reports do remind me

of the Halifax explosion of 1917: two ships collided in Halifax Harbour, one carrying aviation fuel and TNT, and it produced what was, until Hiroshima, the largest man-made explosion in history. One thousand people were killed, and nine thousand injured. http://www.cbc.ca/halifaxexplosion/

So, I suppose, it is conceivable that it could have happened as reported. But as I said, the more I hear, the more dubious I am.

[daleo]

22. Remember, a train is a line source not a point source

I don't know what is really true, but think about this.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

4. LNG can make a really, really big bang... but it is kind of

odd that Kim Jong Il passed through that very train station a few hours earlier on his way back from China.

Timing mistake?

:tinfoilhat:??

[Just Me]

6. Someone mentioned that LNG is not transported via train.

I dunno whether it is or not. Others have mentioned that the rail system is way too slow to cause this kind of "collision" which would ignite such mass destruction.

[Chico Man]

7. The only thing I can think of is that is was a VERY long train

And there would be a chain reaction of sorts from car to car..

But even then I would think the destruction would be quite linear?

How and why were there 3000 people in the vicinity of the train?

The World Trade Center had TWO 100 STORY TOWERS... in DownTown Manhattan...

It just does not make any sense at all.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

8. not in civilized countries, but we are talking about N.Korea near

the Chinese border after all.
Who knows what they do there?

[daleo]

24. So, they are not "civilized"

Think about the implications.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

26. Good point. Civilized is not exactly what I meant, more like

progressive would be a better term

You know, where they care about how things get shipped, have laws that are enforced routinely, when things like this go wrong (if indeed that is what happened) someone is punished.

Like the US used to be.

[daleo]

28. I know you didn't mean it in a bad way, so to speak

I am not trying to be all P.C. about the thing, but it is easy to lapse into language that can be mis-construed. We all do it sometimes, myself included.

I will admit I don't know much about North Korea, and I regret that most western sources (media, that is) don't strike me as very trustworthy on the subject.

[Chico Man]

9. According to these web sites, it is..

http://www.bydesign.com/fossilfuels/links/html/natural_gas/gas_move.html

http://www.shell.ca/code/products/exploration/naturalgasliquids/naturalgasliquids.html

Overview:

Gas is moved primarily by pipeline. The gas transport system is therefore mostly on land, with collection systems, continent crossing pipelines, and local distribution systems. Much of our gas comes from Texas, Louisiana and Canada. Storage, in tanks and underground in old gas wells, is an important part of the transport network. Liquefied natural gas (LNG) and liquid gas products such as propane are moved by ship, barge, truck, rail and pipeline.

[ctex]

31. These websites are wrong/misleading

The 1st website contains a badly written sentence

"Liquefied natural gas (LNG) and liquid gas products such as propane are moved by ship, barge, truck, rail and pipeline."

LNG is moved by ship. Liquified gas products such as propane are moved by ship, barge, truck, rail and pipeline.

The 2nd website talks about natural gas liquids (NGL) and liquified petroleum gas (LPG), but doesn't mention liquified natural gas (LNG).

LNG is liquified methane

LPG is liquified ethane, propane, butane, etc. produced from crude oil at oil refineries.

NGL is liquified ethane, propane, butane, etc. produced in, or near, oil and gas fields as a by-product of natural gas production.

It is cost-prohibitive to move LNG by railcar or truck since it has to be kept at about -260 degrees F (or in the alternative under very high pressure) requiring very expensive railcars and trucks.

[54anickel]

10. Bit more and another pic of the area from last May here

edit to clarify it's an older pic

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=4915400

snip>
Friday's newspapers said the station was in the center of the town of Ryongchon near the Chinese border, possibly accounting for the high casualty figure. There was no confirmation of the reports which spoke of widespread destruction.

"The high casualty figure was because the accident occurred in a densely populated area," the newspaper Chosun Ilbo reported, quoting one unidentified source. It quoted another as saying there might have been a gas storage site nearby.

snip>
Another newspaper, Dong-a Ilbo, said there were apparently apartment blocks near the station.

[Chico Man]

11. Doesn't look like a place where 3000 people would be hanging out

Doesn't look like a nuclear bomb strike either. (but I suppose I wouldn't really know what that looked like...)

[54anickel]

13. I think it's meant to show the proximity of the homes. I edited my post

to clarify the pic is from last May.

[Chico Man]

15. Pic in Question..

Yep, its from May (odd how it looks like there had been an explosion)..



If it was 3000 people I would expect the crater to take up the area of the whole pic????

[DrWeird]

17. Eh, could be a busy train station.

A couple of packed passenger trains, and people there to greet/ send them off would do it. Think how many people are in an airport on a crowded day.

[Chico Man]

21. Yup, you're right...

(But I don't think people in N. Korea travel all that much??)

This, combined with the info from the Halifax Explosion provided above (http://www.cbc.ca/halifaxexplosion/index.html), this is actually fairly believable now...

[DrWeird]

37. I'm sure the North Koreas travel plenty.

but I bet they don't have as many cars. So they have to take the train. Just like americans used to before GM bought all the rail lines and dismantled them.

[Merlin]

33. There's an enormous fuel tank just above and to left of this photo.

If you orient this photo with the other satellite photo (in the smh.com.au article linked in the initial post), you can just make out the outline of what appears to be a huge fuel tank just NW of this pic. There's another about 1/4 mile west of it (assuming this pic is oriented N-S).

[MaineDem]

44. Replied to the wrong message

Sorry...

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

20. Could be a fume event too. Remember Bhopal?

[burrowowl]

30. Gare St. Lazare

in Paris, the third largest commuter volume in the world, can have 5,000 people or more at rush hour.

[Snow]

14. Where did that photo come from????

I asked this in the other duped thread. When I looked at the source, in the Sydney paper, it credited Yonhap new agency, the original source of most of the information. Yonhap, YTN, is a south Korean tv news consortium. How did they get a photo of the fire in NK?

[54anickel]

16. Not sure, the articles state the boarder is fairly open to traders.

Perhaps someone with a cell phone that does pictures? Computer link? Had to be something that didn't need to use the phone lines.
:shrug:

[truthisfreedom]

23. never mind...

[Merlin]

29. Hell of a good question. Pretty distant shot, though.

That area is a hotbead of refugee positioning. NK residents are desperately trying to get into China. They face a lot of obstacles--especially being deported by the Chinese if they make it.

[Dover]

41. The above article credits AFP

Is that - Agence France-Presse or
American Foreign Press?

[54anickel]

18. Looks like they've asked for help from China now.

http://www.reuters.com/locales/newsArticle.jsp;:40886a6f:f3d0d842826d1a3?type=worldNews&locale=en_IN&storyID=4915799

North Korea asks China for help after rail blast
BEIJING (Reuters) - North Korea has asked China for help in rescue operations after two fuel-laden trains collided and exploded near the border, killing up to 3,000 people, an official said on Friday.

"They have already asked for help, but we can't give more details. We must report it to the provincial government," an official with the Dandong city government told Reuters by telephone.

[Robbien]

19. A little bit more info from an Australian news site

Many of the injured have been taken to hospitals across the border in the Chinese city of Dandong.

Our China correspondent, John Taylor, says the area where the crash happened is just 50 kilometres inside North Korea's border with China.

It is believed one of the trains involved in the crash was carrying a donation from China to energy-starved North Korea in return for further co-operation on the nuclear issue.

Debris from the disaster has been seen from the Chinese side of the border and reports say that China is treating the wounded, although it's otherwise sealed off its border.

The United States has said it is also willing to offer assistance to the victims of the blast.

However, the State Department in Washington says it has had no independent information about the explosion, the extent of damage, or whether assistance would be requested by North Korea.

http://www.abc.net.au/ra/newstories/RANewsStories_1093184.htm

[Merlin]

27. Not buyin it. It's sabotage. Trains don't collide at high speed in station

There's a fuel storage facility right by the station. A small plastic explosives charge taped to its side and triggered remotely would easily do it. Evidently the "Great Leader's" train had to pass thru the station. How do these news sources know WHEN he passed thru? They're getting it from NK intel and military sources who may very well be putting out false info to cover.

Imo, this was a well executed piece of sabotage courtesy SK working with CIA.

[Dover]

40. ...and the fuel was a gift from China.

Considering the timing (just after the talks between NK and China)
maybe someone was sending a message to both of them. But of course that's just one of many possibilities...



This tragedy is on the same scale as 9/11. Just horrific.

[Snow]

25. By the way, apologies for unintentional misimpression.

I don't have family in that immediate area. I have family (my wife's) in Korea, most in the south, a few in the north. So, I appreciate the sympathy, since Koreans (among whom I include my genetically scottish self) tend to have a strong sense of ethnic identification. Also, my wife is matriarch of a clan (I'm married to a clan matriarch! And I'm only 58!) that has only one line (unlike, say the prolific Kim or Lee families), and that clan is one that has a strong historical sense of care and responsibility for the country; has had for some hundreds of years. SO that all enters into the concern.

[daleo]

32. I still think this should not be accepted at face value

Some have talked about the USGS (United States Geological Survey) not showing indications of a nuclear event. Probably true, but remember this is a U.S. government agency, which can have results manipulated. Frankly I would trust the Canadian Geological Survey on this one, better than the U.S.G.S. I doubt that this was a nuclear event, but one would have to be naive to think that a U.S. government agency couldn't shade the truth (for a short time, at least), if it was thought to be helpful.

I still haven't heard of any U.S. satellite photos, which would help to confirm the nature of this event. It is true that photos of this sort would not exclude a train sabotage, but at least they would show a train. Obviously, the U.S. military had plenty of photos of every major train station in North Korea.

I don't think we have to run for the tin-foil hats but given that Cheney just finished visiting the far east, and he is a lying bastard, who is a high official in an administration of lying bastards, it is only logical to suspend judgment.

[teryang]

34. An unspecified intelligence source

...says its an accident. That's good enough for me. (sarcasm)

[classics]

35. Sounds like a tactical nuke went off.

Well have to wait for the sat photos to be sure what happened though.

[Stephanie]

36. Why do you say that?

What would be the characteristics of a tactical nuke event?

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

38. crackpots

You know, the conspiracy cranks on here are getting really unbearable, and my ignore list is growing rather long. So I just want to thank *all* of you for taking the deaths of 3000 innocent people and turning it into a contest to see who's warped conspiracy ideology it fits. CIA? Bush? The Saudis? Angry jesus freaks?

So let's review what happened today: 3000 people who have known hardship that none of you will ever know - surviving famine, lunatic leaders, etc. got blown up who-knows-how or why.
These people are not your pets. They are not your toys. I'm sorry to say that I find the behavior of quite a few people on this forum to be wholly disrespectful to these simple facts. If three generations - your entire family - gets blown up in an accident, I hope some huge cadre of idiots takes it upon themselves to turn it into fodder for their own personal political agenda. You deserve it.

Hey, maybe the famine that killed 2.3 million North Koreans was the CIA's doing, too.

[Guaranteed]

39. I agree.

Maybe we should figure out who's responsible for this. What do you think?

[makhno]

42. Hmm

Hey, maybe the famine that killed 2.3 million North Koreans was the CIA's doing, too.

I wouldn't put it past our government to sabotage DPRK crops with weak genetically engineered strains. :tinfoilhat:

[maddezmom]

43. Red Cross on alert in N. Korea

CNN) -- A North Korean Red Cross team is on its way to the scene of an explosion at a train station, which some news reports estimate has left thousands dead or injured.

South Korean officials say they suspect a truck or train carrying flammable gas caused the massive blast at Ryongchon train station.

~snip~
China has been urging North Korea to send injured people across the border, but Pyongyang has asked relief workers to be sent to the scene of the disaster, Jeong said.

"They have already asked for help, but we can't give more details. We must report it to the provincial government," a Dandong city government official told Reuters by telephone.

~snip~
more: http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/asiapcf/04/23/nkorea.train/

[MaineDem]

45. BBC spoke to an aid worker in Pyonyang - not 2 trains involved

He said it was NOT two trains but a train and some "carts". They - either the train or the carts, I'm not sure - were carrying explosives for a construction site. He is on his way to the site tomorrow.

BBC speculated that it was not a gas explosion but explosives...hmmmm

I don't think we'll ever know the entire story here.

[underpants]

46. Mmmm What WAS on that train?

3,000 people? 1,800 households and 54 dead (another thread)?

Sounds more nuclear?

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

48. Liquid Natural Gas

Basically, an accident waiting to happen. Think of it this way: Trains are long. Consider a mile-long train carrying liquid natural gas. The explosion wouldn't be confined to one small area. As the explosion of each car sets off the next, the fireball progresses down the length of the train. In a heavily populated area, this could easily kill thousands of people.

[treepig]

49. dynamite?

Initial reports of the disaster Thursday described a collision, but aid workers said North Korean officials on Friday blamed an electrical accident with a train carrying explosives.

"What they've said is that two carriages of a train carrying dynamite - they were trying to disconnect the carriages and link them up to another train," Anne O'Mahony, regional director for Concern, told Irish radio station RTE from Pyongyang. "They got caught in the overhead electric wiring, the dynamite exploded and that was the cause of the explosion."

Accounts of the materials involved differed. Sparrow said the trains were carrying explosives similar to those used in mining. China's Xinhua News Agency reported the blast was blamed on ammonium nitrate - a chemical used in explosives, rocket fuel and fertilizer - leaking from one train. South Korea's unification minister said the trains were carrying fuel.

http://www.canada.com/national/story.html?id=9ca23c38-aef3-41d4-abbe-ee880b778fd6

[Dover]

47. Based on this article about Cheney's recent visit to China, I'm guessing

this was no accident, but rather a "message" from the U.S. to both China and N. Korea. One of the trains was loaded with fuel that was purportedly a gift from China. That certainly fits with Cheney's "style" of diplomacy.


Beijing pulls no punches with Cheney


HONG KONG - While in China last week, American Vice-President Dick Cheney was told, in no uncertain terms, what Beijing expected of Washington in containing separatism in Taiwan.

He received broad hints from his hosts that the United States should not expect Chinese help over the North Korean nuclear issue unless Washington was prepared to reciprocate by helping Beijing check Taiwan's independence movement.

All four top leaders he met - President Hu Jintao, Vice-President Zeng Qinghong, Premier Wen Jiabao and military supremo Jiang Zemin - demanded that the US stop selling arms to Taiwan as a first step in regaining Beijing's cooperation in the Korean peninsula.

Reflecting the mood of the discussions, a Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman urged Washington to scrap the Taiwan Relations Act (TRA), which empowers American arms sales to Taiwan, altogether.

more…
http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/asia/story/0,4386,246663,00.html