Europe tells Greece: 'no more money unless you cancel referendum'

[PoliticAverse]

Source: The Daily Telegraph

European leaders have threatened to withhold €8bn (£6.9bn) of international aid from Greece until Athens agrees to adopt the terms of the Brussels debt crisis deal without a referendum.

The ultimatum was delivered to George Papandreou by Angela Merkel and Nicolas Sarkozy at crisis talks in Cannes designed to rescue last week's accord before the G20 summit.

The German Chancellor and French President piled pressure onto the Greek leader amid fears that his shock referendum could torpedo their efforts to underpin the euro. They were backed by politicians from around the world as the G20 looked set to become the third international summit on the eurozone crisis in a week.

However, IMF chief Christine Lagarde claims she has "never seen as much determination and decisiveness to act in a coordinated fashion" as the eurozone leaders are currently showing.

Read more: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/8865976/Europe-tells-Greece-no-more-money-unless-you-cancel-referendum.html

[LARED]

1. When staring into the abyss this will happen

"never seen as much determination and decisiveness to act in a coordinated fashion"

The question will Greece adopt the terms or not.

I vote no.

[PoliticAverse]

2. The question is will the people get to vote and if they do will the vote be binding. n/t

[LARED]

3. I think the real question is when will the Greek

economy fall apart completely.

The people can vote all they want, until that happens then all bets are off.

[tama]

24. Economy

is Greek word and means household management, taking care of home.

If and when the financial system of money worshiping falls apart, what does that mean for real economy, taking care of our home?

[Dark]

57. The real question is when will Greece, Spain and Italy abandon the euro.

Unless the central bank cuts rates to zero and promises to back Greek debt, it's going to happen and filter up through the system.

[tama]

23. PM said

the vote will be binding. What stays unclear, can Greek PM make the referendum happening.

[msongs]

4. a German chancellor making final demands of a small European state. Sound familiar? nt

[matk]

19. Really?

Angela Merkel is just like Hitler invading Poland?

[tama]

22. Ehm,

the latest deal, when made, was immediately compared to Chamberlain waving a paper and declaring 'peace in our time'. And proposal of democracy trashed it in no time.

Hence the correct historical analogy is not Poland, but Euroslaves selling Greece to IMF and corporate fascism like Chamberlain sold Checkoslovakia.

[matk]

28. you were talking about a German Chancellor making demands...

... so I had no idea you were referring to Chamberlain.

[tama]

30. That was msongs

I just jumped in and nuanced the idea.

[matk]

32. Sorry, you're right.

Of course I was addressing msongs because frankly I'm disturbed how easily the "it's just like Hitler"-argument is thrown around for everything Germany does or doesn't do.

[tama]

34. It's natural

EU was created to prevent another European WW and to keep Germany pacified. But now EU itself has become the union of corporate fascism.

[matk]

38. It's natural?

It's natural to compare recent policy decisions, whether you agree with them or not, to the mass slaughter of millions?

And frankly it's the first time I hear that the EU was created to pacify Germany. Where can I read up on that?

[randome]

41. I agree with you.

The comparisons are a little too thick.

[Celefin]

53. Except it wasn't. -nt-

[tama]

54. Certainly not supernatural :) nt

[PassingFair]

59. You know the word "similar" does NOT mean "just like".

No one said "it's just like Hitler" but you.

:eyes:

[newspeak]

56. Remember reading about the consolidation of europe in the eighties

in history class. What really caught my attention was in order to consolidate there would be sacrifices to be made by the citizenry--social sacrifices in order to compete globally. First thing I thought was getting rid or weakening the social safety net that certain countries enjoy while allowing more global corporate influence.

It seems things are working as planned for that new corporate world order, unless the plebes get uppity. There may come a time when nationality will be meaningless, the 1%ers won't have to sell flag waving and pin wearing to the plebes.

[Safetykitten]

5. Yea...what they said! Sincerely, the banks.

[Poll_Blind]

6. They're errand boys, sent by grocery clerks, to collect a bill. nt

PB

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Turbineguy]

8. In other words.....

We help you and you stab us in the back. That's the thing about being a leader. Sometimes you need to do things that some people may not like, if nothing else because you see the wider canvas.

[tama]

25. Fuck leaders nt

[unkachuck]

9. and Greece tells Europe....

....take your euro and your eurozone and pack it squarely up your ass; we're the home of democracy and we will remain democratic....

"never seen as much determination and decisiveness to act in a coordinated fashion"

....are the corporate-stooge politicians getting ballsy?....the Greeks and all their democratic referendum talk must be having the global capitalists questioning their paid lackies and investments....

[provis99]

10. So what will Germany do, invade Greece?

oh wait, they've done it before...

[matk]

20. It's right there in the article what Germany - and the other EU nations - will do:

"...threatened to withhold €8bn (£6.9bn) of international aid from Greece.." Not sure where you got the "invading Greece" angle from.

[T_i_B]

36. The Invading Greece angle?

World War II perhaps? That's the image that comes to a lot of peoples heads when the German government started throwing it's weight around.

[matk]

39. I'm quite aware

that this was - yet another - WWII/Hitler reference. I just think it's ludicrous when people imply that the Fourth Reich is just around the corner whenever Germany does something they don't agree with. Especially, if one chooses not to ignore the past 60 years of German history one will find that Germany was quite a bit less belligerent than other countries - such as, for example, the U.S.

[tama]

55. This is corporate fascism

and all politicians are part of it - including German politicians. Very strange logic that if a German politician is involved, then all of this and what is being done to Greece can't be fascism.

[potone]

11. How unbelievably arrogant.

How dare the Greek people have the right to vote on their own future???

[matk]

21. By all means do the Greek have a right on their future.

The rescue package, however, is tied to conditions (whether we specifically agree to them or not). If Greece doesn't meet these conditions, and the referendum will show if the population is willing or not, then the rescue money won't be paid out. Why should the EU support Greece if it has no intention playing by the EU's rules?

[tama]

26. Nobody is playing by EU rules

This has nothing to do with rules and all about being banksters, mobsters and thugs and robbing we the people.

[matk]

31. It does smell a lot like Disaster Capitalism,

however you can't blame the Germans for not wanting to throw otherwise-much-needed money into a bottomless pit when the Greek populace decides they don't even want to remain a EU member.

Of course, how much their hand was forced to reach this conclusion is another debate. Certainly the Greek We The People is not to blame.

[tama]

33. I can very well blame

Sarkozy, Merkel, Katainen and the rest of the Euro-mafia for wanting to throw money into the bottomless pit of bankrupt banks and making European peoples debt-slaves of IMF. And that is the only real story and motivation behind the topic of Greece.

[T_i_B]

37. Don't want to remain an EU member?

Don't think it goes as far as outright withdrawal from the EU but Greece leaving the Euro and going back to their own currency is a real possibility.

To be honest there are a lot of people in the UK right now who are very glad indeed that we kept the Pound and didn't join the Eurozone.

[DonCoquixote]

49. Honestly

The EU should have started with France and Germany, and expanded. Let them call themselves the Holy Roman empire if they want. Change does not happen in a few years, or even decades, especially in Europe, so right now, they are trying to make Oak Chests out of acorns.

[T_i_B]

51. Greece should never had been allowed to join the Eurozone in the 1st place.

Their economy wasn't convergent enough with the other countries who afe part of the single currency.

I was never a fan on the Euro in the 1st place and now the wheels are falling off the wagon of this grand experiment.

[Festivito]

12. No! soup for YOU!

Or, is it, no spend for you.
--the spend Nazi

[rayofreason]

13. Beware of Greeks refusing gifts! n/t

[No Elephants]

15. It takes one to know one. Trojan horse givers, that is.

[rayofreason]

16. Trojans..they are not just condoms anymore! n/t

[Jack Rabbit]

14. Are they afraid of the Greeks crashing the banking system?

Excuse me, but so what?

That's right, I said, so what? It's starting to sound like a good idea.

Banks handle money, and money is not wealth. It is a convenient medium of exchange. It's better than bartering and sure beats stealing. The only wealth a bank creates is a service. It handles a medium of exchange. It lends money for customers to invest in homes and businesses.

Banking systems are good to have around when bankers do their jobs. Does anybody think Jamie Dimon, Lloyd Blankfein or Brian Moynihan are doing their jobs? Honestly? Well, what ever else they're up to, it isn't doing their jobs honestly. They're sitting on piles of money and not letting there customers put it to any good use. If they are expecting We, The People to cry "uncle" and let them have their way with us, that's not banking. That's extortion.

We don't bankers like them, who simply extort the public and bribe politicians. We might be better off if the present banking system collapsed and something else were put together to replace it (the quicker the better, but not so quick that we just replace one bunch of powerful crooks with another).

The Occupy movement is there because politicians made the decision to represent banks and other large private interests and not The People. We, The People can do it better than they can. We, The People have taken matters into our own hands. There is no turning back. We will let the banking system collapse and then We, The People, not the bankers or politicians, will reorganize it.

The wealth will still be there. The fruit of farms, mines and factories will still be there for our use.

As for bankers who expect to collect on odious debt and derivatives, we found out in the last comparable worldwide economic crisis that stock bought on easy credit made great wallpaper. Maybe they can use some.

[tama]

27. +1

[daleo]

17. Sooner or later, the people will have their say

One way or another.

[randome]

42. The people elected leaders.

And it's the leaders who should be making the heavy decisions. If every vote were given to the public to decide, there would be no need for elections.

Everything could be done by computers.

The Greek PM is abdicating his responsibilities by calling for a referendum. It's a bad idea.

[Little Tich]

18. The article is misleading. Nobody is trying to cancel the referendum.

However, Greece will not get any money until they commit to staying with the Euro. If they vote against staying with the Euro in the referendum, they will have to invent their own currency, which probably will be like a modern version of Confederate Dollars.

[tama]

29. Of course many are trying

All those who think money is more important than people are trying to cancel the referendum. That's why EU-mafia is demanding that the referendum is about membership in euro, not about IMF austerity package, more bank bailouts and loss of Greek independence.

[Octafish]

35. The Money don't like Democracy

Using it to actually help make a better world could be expensive.

[defendandprotect]

40. +1 -- !!

[randome]

43. Democracy means electing officials to lead.

That's not what's happening here so I don't think your comparison holds water.

[Octafish]

46. Like when the USA elects a president who'll put the People's interest ahead of Wall Street's?

How's that turning out? The elected leader did just like the elected leader in Greece, democracy's original homeland: He does what Money wants.

[randome]

47. Not always.

Sometimes he does bend over to corporate interests too much. They all do and I wish it was different.

I think the 'frictionless economy' that we've been building toward has reached its zenith and that we'll start to pull back now with more common-sense regulations.

It will take time. But at least Obama doesn't just roll over and let everyone else make his decisions for him. His Presidency will live or die by the decisions he has made.

[Octafish]

48. Goldman Sachs Buying Democracy's Homeland

It's like the Mafia now runs the planet.

How Goldman Sachs Helped Greece to Mask its True Debt

Goldman Sachs helped the Greek government to mask the true extent of its deficit with the help of a derivatives deal that legally circumvented the EU Maastricht deficit rules. At some point the so-called cross currency swaps will mature, and swell the country's already bloated deficit.

EXCERPT...

But in the Greek case the US bankers devised a special kind of swap with fictional exchange rates. That enabled Greece to receive a far higher sum than the actual euro market value of 10 billion dollars or yen. In that way Goldman Sachs secretly arranged additional credit of up to $1 billion for the Greeks.

This credit disguised as a swap didn't show up in the Greek debt statistics. Eurostat's reporting rules don't comprehensively record transactions involving financial derivatives. "The Maastricht rules can be circumvented quite legally through swaps," says a German derivatives dealer.

In previous years, Italy used a similar trick to mask its true debt with the help of a different US bank. In 2002 the Greek deficit amounted to 1.2 percent of GDP. After Eurostat reviewed the data in September 2004, the ratio had to be revised up to 3.7 percent. According to today's records, it stands at 5.2 percent.

[muriel_volestrangler]

44. AP and AFP reporting referendum has been cancelled

Still 'reports', though. BBC live feed (GMT times):

1454: The leader said the referendum was never a purpose in itself, according to Reuters. AFP is also reporting that Mr Papandreou is ready to scrap the idea, citing media reports.

1451: Two officials close to the Greek prime minister said he had scrapped the idea after the opposition would not back it, AP reports. The leader made the comments in an emergency cabinet meeting earlier.

1448: Reports coming in suggest the proposed referendum has been scrapped.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15570986

AP:

Two officials close to the Greek prime minister say he has scrapped his plan to hold a referendum on the latest European debt deal for Greece after the main opposition leader said would back it.

The two officials said George Papandreou made the comments during an emergency Cabinet meeting Thursday. One also said the premier would not resign despite mounting pressure, and would await the outcome of Friday's confidence vote in his government.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2016674862_apeugreecefinancialcrisis.html

[workinclasszero]

45. Glad to see the criminal banksters taking off their democracy and freedom masks

So the whole world knows that our worldwide 1% rulers are truly fascist pigs.

[closeupready]

50. Sark/Merk. must not realize that what they are actually doing here is undermining the EU itself.

If the EU stands for democracy and human rights.

[DonCoquixote]

52. You think it ever did?

It was never about that.

[KamaAina]

58. The Greeks invented democracy.

The French and Germans may just have ended it. :scared: