Stocks Bounce as Greek Referendum Tossed Out

[Roland99]

Source: CNBC

Stocks bounced again in volatile trading Thursday following a report that the Greek prime minister said he has thrown out his plan to hold a referendum on the latest European debt deal for Greece.

Stocks were on a rollercoaster ride all morning as investors reacted to a handful of mixed economic news, an unexpected ECB rate cut and after ECB president Mario Draghi said the euro zone could subside into a "mild recession."

Read more: http://www.cnbc.com/id/45148046

[Tarheel_Dem]

1. I'd say this is good news all around. (nt)

:kick:

[Renew Deal]

2. It's good news for those that consider democracy inconvenient.

[Tansy_Gold]

4. +1 n/t

[bread_and_roses]

60. +2 (n/t)

[Demeter]

68. +3

[randome]

5. Democracy means electing officials to lead.

The Greek PM was abdicating his responsibilities by turning over the decision to someone else. And if the vote was 'No', Greece would have been plunged into an economic depression and perhaps the rest of the world, as well.

If the Greeks don't like this decision, they can vote for a new government but as of right now, the present government did the right thing and reversed course. The alternative is more millions of people unemployed.

[MNBrewer]

13. Democracy means no such thing!

Representative Democracy, maybe, but not "Democracy" in general.

[randome]

14. Point taken.

I'll be more careful with my comparisons in the future. Thanks.

[Ghost Dog]

18. Something odd, don't you think, if a relatively small default by tiny Greece

could somehow roil the world, um, 'economic order', as certain propagandists tell us, when, not so long ago, mighty Argentina's rather larger, I think, default turned out to be felt as not much more than a 'little local difficulty' (although temporalily painful for Argentine working/middle classes)?

[muriel_volestrangler]

21. Depends on if you measure Argentinian GDP before or after

http://www.google.co.uk/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&met_y=ny_gdp_mktp_cd&idim=country:ARG&dl=en&hl=en&q=argentina+gdp#ctype=l&strail=false&bcs=d&nselm=h&met_y=ny_gdp_mktp_cd&scale_y=lin&ind_y=false&rdim=country&idim=country:ARG:GRC&ifdim=country&hl=en&dl=en

But the main point is that the outcome of Greece may point to the eventual fate of Spain (more than 4 times as large) or Italy (more than 6 times as large). There weren't larger countries than Argentina stuck in the same currency pact.

[Ghost Dog]

38. Well, no country is 'stuck' in said currency pact.

But, don't you reckon all the swarming (and morally and legally invulnerable, apparently) vampire squid might have something to do with this current situation that so affects us all?

[muriel_volestrangler]

44. No-one has ever set out any way for a country to exit the eurozone

so I would say they are indeed 'stuck'; they'll have to pass a raft of entirely new Greek legislation to define what they're doing, and the situation outside Greece is still completely unknown (someone will presumably have to negotiate with a Greek government; but will it be just the ECB, the EU, each eurozone country individually, or what?)

I'm sure the banks have been heavily lobbying Germany, France etc. to get the best possible outcome for themselves, with no regard for the Greeks; but that doesn't mean that this is just a local difficulty in reality. If Italy were to leave the Euro and its 'new' currency to heavily devalue, it would be a major shock to the world economy.

[Ghost Dog]

47. You mean, because ultimately the $ multi-trillion dodgy mortgage derivative mountain,

and such, internationally held by the squid and various government taxpayer-financed proppers-up (still, and marked-to no market, heaven forbid), will have to be seen for the pile of, uh, worse-than-nothing it really is?

[muriel_volestrangler]

53. No, this is about government debt, not mortgages

This is Greece, not Lehman Bros (or even Ireland, which unwisely decided to cover the property speculating losses of its own banks).

If you regard government debt as a pile of 'worse-than-nothing', perhaps it is; but, if a major part of global economics for the past 300 years or so turns out to be a "pile of worse-than-nothing", then you can't call this a 'little local difficulty', can you?

It won't be the end of world capitalism - neither the Great Depression nor World War Two were, and it's not as big as them - but it's still a major event.

[Ghost Dog]

56. It's money lent by elements of the predatory unregulated financial system.

Often, apparently fraudulently.

I'm saying, as I think you're also saying, once those deals start to unravel, who knows where it leads?

Way under the table, I suspect.

Anyway, I don't want to argue :) . Let's wait (not long now) AND SEE...

[randome]

22. I'm no economic expert by any means.

But I would think Europe is a more tightly interwoven set of nation states than South America, although SA is rapidly becoming more so.

And since Europe is more tightly interwoven with the world economy in general, I think the effects are different than they were in Argentina.

[Fool Count]

67. It is not the amount of Greek debt (though it is nearly triple that of Argentina's

with Greece having less than half the population), it is the amount of CDS and other derivatives
linked to Greek default (nobody knows exactly how much but could easily be five times the actual debt)
which is scaring the shit out of the markets. That's why they thought nothing of writing off 50% of
the debt rather than letting the rating agencies to declare Greece in sovereign default. They could even
write off 100% of the debt to avoid default, if it was politically feasible, but they don't want to
encourage Spain and Italy to go the same rout - then it would become too much to handle. There was no
such derivative danger with Argentina.

[Ghost Dog]

69. Yes. Nothing has been done about the derivative mountain,

not even a glimmer of transparency, that should never have been permitted in the first place.

[The Stranger]

45. It would appear at this point that a global economic depression is inevitable.

Let the system work and the bankers pay the piper.

[randome]

46. I think we can still weather this.

It's an extremely complex world economic system but despite all the wrong turns and mishaps, it's still holding together. America would do a world of good (pun intended) if it put more sensible financial regulations in place and tended to its own economy, which is truly the lynchpin of the global economy.

I think the tide is turning toward that happening.

[The Stranger]

48. America is on an express train to Hell, hijacked by the G.O.P. and its cult.

If you think sensible financial regulations are anywhere close -- especially given the free market, laissez faire cult that has taken over the U.S. -- then you have another thing coming.

If a Democratic President elected overwhelmingly with both Houses of Congress Democratic cannot get basic regulations passed (and then enacted), then there is something else driving the train.

The Globalists reached too far. As in all things, you give someone enough rope, and they'll likely hang themselves with it.

[randome]

52. I hear you.

But:

1. OWS is having an effect (not the direct effect I wanted to see, but an effect.)
2. The Republicans in office are self-destructing. Fiddling while Rome burns.
3. The current crop of candidates for next year's GOP primary are truly the bottom of the barrel (it is NOT a secret ploy to put Jeb Bush into power.)
4. Republican governors in several states have over-reached and pissed off their constituencies.
5. The 'frictionless economy' we've been heading for has gone too far and will need to be pulled back or the entire system will, indeed, collapse -for the 1% as well as for the rest.

These are signs -I think- that the tide is starting to turn.

And yes, the globalists HAVE hung themselves. They will need help in getting down from the rafters they so foolishly climbed to.

[GeorgeGist]

63. Represent means follow.

[NoodleyAppendage]

7. Exactly. Democracy can only be allowed if it benefits the current oligarchy.

I fully support the Greek people going wild and kicking ass now. We did something similar in 1776. It's getting close to that time again.

J

[plumbob]

28. Well said.

After all, without our "betters" to guide us, we'd be lost, right?

[Jack Rabbit]

61. +3

In this entire travesty, democracy has been treated as an inconvenience. At no time did the Greek people have a real say in taking on this debt, and are only offered one now when, for all intents and purposes, all the options for the Greek people are bad.

The government lied to them for years by collaborating with Goldman Sachs to hide to debt. It may have been at one time inconceivable that a government which derived legitimacy from nominally free elections could be accused of taking on odious debt. That kind of thing was the province of dictators. However, the political system is so broken now that Papandreou could be accused of acting like a crooked Latin American dictator.

Let the crooked bankers collect the debt from their crooked pet politicians. The Greek people should resist austerity and they deserve our support.

[earthside]

23. Good news for the 1%. n/t

[bullwinkle428]

25. Good news all around for the banksters.

[Matariki]

51. Do you actually understand what the referendum was about?

[leveymg]

3. Only goes to prove how much global bankers and Wall Street hate democracy

Even the threat of a referendum on national economic policy scares the shit out of them.

We want our own referendum on austerity, and we want it now.

[iandhr]

6. banks will take a 50% loss on greek debt

They first were going to only take 25% but Merkel called there bluff.

[NoodleyAppendage]

9. How about 100% loss. Isn't that the risk we little people take?

F the bankers. If you want unfettered capitalism, then you should be prepared to suffer from poor choices...not transfer the pain to the people (socialism) to mitigate the risks taken.

J

[iandhr]

10. We little people have the FDIC

if our banks goes our losses are made up. Which is a wonderful thing.

[CJCRANE]

70. That's insurance on deposits not loans.

If an ordinary citizen loans money to someone who can't pay it back...then they're f***ed, no taxpayer bailout for them.

[dipsydoodle]

12. Yes

because of the adverse effect it would have on many pension funds.

[workinclasszero]

8. Good news for anti democracy nazis

Can't let the peon 99% decide their fate, hey its bad for the markets!:argh::mad:

[randome]

11. Yeah, well...

...a world-wide Depression is bad for the people, too.

[MNBrewer]

15. There's no guarantee that would occur.

[randome]

16. No guarantee.

But a real possibility. Why take the chance and find out? You may as well see if something is flammable by setting it on fire.

[MNBrewer]

The Greek people deserve a chance to either endorse or repudiate the schemes being put on them

[randome]

27. If it was only THEIR ass on the line, I would agree.

But the PM is playing with the world economy now. And he can do that, if he wants. But the rest of the world has the right to apply pressure on him to reverse course so he doesn't put many millions of more people in the ranks of the unemployed.

[MNBrewer]

29. Prediction of world wide depression if Greece had this referendum

is pure speculation.

[randome]

30. I'd prefer not to risk it.

And I'd prefer that Greece not risk it for the rest of the world, either.

[MNBrewer]

31. I'd prefer that the Greeks get their referendum

Sadly, they probably won't

[Tansy_Gold]

20. You're absolutely correct.

We should continue to support, encourage, and reward those who are slowly, methodically, mercilessly destroying the middle class because something might happen?


Well, shouldn't we?


No, we shouldn't. You're wrong.



Tansy Gold

[randome]

26. The only solution is to quickly destroy the middle class?

That's what a Greek default would do. And it would have world-wide implications.

When you or I have a plan in place for replacing the current system, then we can talk about making the changeover.

Until then, simply pulling the rug out from under an entire nation is...well, self-explanatory.

[Tansy_Gold]

71. As others have said. . . .

Argentina defaulted and the world didn't come to an end. Iceland didn't roll over and play dead, and the world didn't come to an end.

An as a matter of fact, I do have a plan for replacing the current system.


You're operating on fear of the unknown, and that's exactly what the right wing wants you to do. You don't know that a Greek default would collapse the world economy, but you're so afraid that it might that you'll do anything, even if it's not in your best interest, to avoid that eventuality.

I don't and won't live on the basis of fear, especially when I see that my fear plays right into the hands of the uberwealthy con artists.

Once again, all you readers and lurkers -- if you haven't read Bob Altemeyer's "The Authoritarians," you really need to. Now. Today. http://members.shaw.ca/jeanaltemeyer/drbob/TheAuthoritarians.pdf and it's free. Then take your education one step further and read Barry Glassner's "Teh Culture of Fear."

And remember that social change is rarely an either/or proposition. There are lots of opportunities, lots of options, lots of alternatives. Right now, we know that the policies and actions of the 1%ers are designed to destroy the middle class. We know that because we see it happening. We also know that there are alternatives that do NOT include collapsing the world economy. The problem is that not only are the right wing followers too afraid to do anything, but also there are a lot of lift/liberals who have fallen for the line of doom and gloom coming from the right.

Why do you think they're saying that? Hm? Why do you think that is? Maybe, just maybe, it's because they WANT you to be afraid so you won't do anything to upset THEIR apple cart. And maybe, just maybe, it's because upsetting their apple cart would NOT bring the collapse they've "warned" about, but something far more in OUR best interest.

But hey, if you prefer to be so afraid that you won't take any chances on a BETTER future, well, as Lee Iacocca said, get out of my way.


TG

[randome]

72. I'm not afraid.

And I'm not doing anything pro or con to influence events in Greece.

But your statement about 'voting against my best interests' implies that I should be voting that way.

But isn't that what you hold against the 'monied interests'? That they are only voting for themselves?

If you have a plan to replace the current economic system, let's hear it.

But I still don't see that Greece has a right to determine the health of the world economy, which is what they would be doing if this was put to a simple majority vote.

[Tansy_Gold]

75. Greece has a right to determine their own fate

Seriously, do you think the global economy depends on what tiny little Greece does? They aren't huge players in this game. They've just been made the scapegoat for a catastrophe others have engineered and others will benefit from.

[tama]

77. What does it tell about "health"

of the world economy if Greeks would be allowed to decide their future in referendum?

[tama]

76. Destroy class society

US "middle class" is in the global 1%. What is the current rate of child malnutrition in US? And how fast is it growing?

[workinclasszero]

40. Well gee then, lets just get rid of all democracy and that pesky voting

thing and let the gangsters on wall street dictate to us in every aspect of our fuckin lives! After all, they know best right?:eyes::puke:

[randome]

41. No one here is advocating throwing the baby out with the bath water.

But leaders are elected to make the tough calls, aren't they?

[Nye Bevan]

49. So any time a democratically elected government passes a law without a referendum

they are behaving like "anti-democratic Nazis"?

[Cal Carpenter]

17. More proof that democracy and capitalism are NOT friends

let alone synonymous as the political rhetoric in this country would have us believe.

[MNBrewer]

19. +1

[tcaudilllg]

24. Papy's last chance to save himself.

Hope to hear he got strung up.

[julian09]

39. He bluffed his way to get approval of eurozone, which he got

then called off referendum. Scary but brilliant tactic.

[randome]

42. Well, that puts a new perspective on it.

Interesting.

[tcaudilllg]

64. At this point, I don't think a Greek civil war can be avoided.

What do you think?

[brentspeak]

32. Greek Leader Hints He May Drop Plan for Referendum

Source: New York Times

ATHENS — Prime Minister George Papandreou appeared to be backing away from his plan to hold a referendum on Greece’s new loan deal with the European Union.

Before going into an emergency cabinet meeting, Mr. Papandreou suggested that he was prepared to walk away from the referendum proposal, saying that it “would not have been necessary if there had been consensus with the opposition.” He praised the opposition’s desire to support the new debt deal.

There were conflicting reports throughout a day of tumultuous political developments. At first, Mr. Papandreou was said to have offered to resign before a confidence vote scheduled for Friday. By late afternoon, however, Greek news media were reporting from the continuing cabinet meeting that he not only was refusing to resign but was in fact calling off the referendum plan.

By some analysts’ estimation, the referendum could have been a ploy by Mr. Papandreou to force the opposition to back the loan deal, and that he was happy to drop the idea once that goal was accomplished on Thursday. Previously, the opposition leader, Antonis Samaras, had scored political points by opposing the loan deal and previous bailouts without having to pay any political price. Adding substance to that speculation, the prime minister told his cabinet ministers at the outset of their meeting on Thursday that the “referendum proposal would not have been necessary if there had been consensus” with the opposition, according to a newly released transcript of the speech.

Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/04/world/europe/greek-leaders-split-on-euro-referendum.html?_r=1&hp

---

UPDATE: CNN breaking news appears to confirm that the referendum has been called off.

[Turbineguy]

33. I suspect

somebody made him "an offer he couldn't refuse".

[PoliticAverse]

34. Pretty much it's: Want to stay in the Euro, cancel the vote and accept the deal we offered. n/t

[bemildred]

35. He is soooooo toasted. nt

[dipsydoodle]

36. The key to this is "consensus” with the opposition"

He's saying there would be no need for a referendum IF , and only if , ALL PARTIES AGREE TO THE AUSTERITY MEASURES.

[randome]

37. It's called the 'Wriggling Worm' Maneuver.

Of if not, it should be.

[Ghost Dog]

50. Yeah.

:)

[Nye Bevan]

43. Good news. Now the Greeks won't have the opportunity to be stupid enough

to vote against their own best interests.

The "austerity" they have seen so far would be a walk in the park compared to what would happen if they voted themselves out of the Euro.

[fedsron2us]

54. Maybe but it should be the Greek people who decide

not Merkel and Sarkozy or the rest of the one percenters.

Not that it is going to make any difference as the Greek debt crisis is just the precursor of the 'debt crisis that are yet to come' across the western world.

[KamaAina]

55. The Greeks invented democracy

now they've abandoned it. :(

[DCBob]

57. How so? Their leaders were legitimately elected.. right?

They represent the people and they are deciding to accept the plan.

[Selatius]

58. Not really so if their constitution has given them the ability for a referendum.

Referendums were installed as a check on legislative acts. If an act of the legislature is controversial, the referendum is there to serve as a final check. If what the legislature does is not supported by the people, it will be defeated whenever a referendum is called upon that act or law. However, with no referendum, there is a check of power that has now been removed.

[randome]

59. Yeah, but what legislation is NOT controversial?

It's still the call of the government which issues to put before the voters. And it was a bad call to try and put this particular issue out there.

[DCBob]

62. Something this critical and complicated and time sensitive should be not be decided by referendum.

It ranks with national security issues which would never be decided by referendum.

[GliderGuider]

65. No, instead it should be decided by vested interests...

:wtf:

[Selatius]

73. It's not an issue of war or peace, though.

Unless armies are involved, I would consider this a financial issue. Yeah, it's serious, but let's not blow this out of proportion into something it isn't by calling it an issue of national security for the Greeks.

[westerebus]

80. What's your problem?

Are you afraid that the American people will demand their voice be heard and obeyed?

We've been at this for a while.

Guess what?

It's not working for the 99%.

National security?

In case you've missed it...the 99% is the National Security!!!


* grammar/spelling

[randome]

81. Okay. Here we go.

Coffee? Check.
Buttered cinnamon raisen toast? Check. (Mmmm.)
Boss still out? Check.

Now, let's see what's new on Democratic Underg...what? We're still talking about Greece?!

I believe 'national security' was preceded with the words 'ranks with' so you're using a false equivalency there.

As I've said in other posts on this very thread, the alternative to not passing the proposal is a severe depression for Greece and more hardships for the rest of the world.

And leaders are supposed to be making these kind of decisions, not simply letting things fall through to a popular vote.

If we did that all the time, we would not need leaders or elections. We could simply have computers spit out surveys.

[westerebus]

82. Let's start with the bush bailouts shall we?

The majority of Americans were opposed to it.

The Congress did it any way.

So main street remains in the great recession while wall street parties on.

Letting the Greek people decide at that ballot box on their economic fate is preferable to civil war.

If the current Form of government is not working, we reserve the right to change it. Well so do they.

The Form of government in not working here for the majority. IMO

Do we need 435 member's of Congress? May be that's not enough. Could be it's way too many.

Do we need a Federal Reserve bank? An IRS code that funds corporate welfare?

The SEC? The DEA? The MIC?

Let's have a referendum here and see how it goes.

[randome]

83. If we had a referendum on everything...

...then nothing would ever get done.

Not sure a Greek civil war is oncoming. My sense is that it's not.

I think the form of government we have here IS working. But our elected representatives are NOT. Republicans want cushy congressional jobs based on their promise that they will do as little as possible while pulling down their salaries.

And, hey, I don't have answers to all the questions you posed. SEC? DEA? MIC? I'd spend way too much time figuring out all the nuances of those agencies. And I have better things to do with my time.

Which is why, again, we have legislators and leaders who we pay to make those decisions for us. That was how it was supposed to work in Greece, too.

[westerebus]

84. The actions of government can change.

If the change does not come from the government after being petitioning peacefully (the ballot box) it will come none the less.

Most times in the from of a different form of government.

Greece civil war 1946 to 1949.

Greek military dictatorship 1967 to 1974.

Referendum to end the Greek Monarchy 1975.

Ending the current state of government, in progress...

Coup d'etat in USA 1964.

War on USA labor. Nixon visits China 1972.

Ending Glass-Stegall. Clinton 1999.

Second coup 2000. Bush appointed by SCOTUS.

Most favored status granted China 2000.

Emergency Economic Stabilization Act 2008.

Ending the current state of government, in progress...

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

66. "Here, kitty, kitty!"

[muriel_volestrangler]

74. Greece PM Papandreou faces fresh call to resign

Greece's centre-right opposition has demanded Prime Minister George Papandreou resign, throwing into disarray plans for a unity government.

Opposition leader Antonis Samaras also called for snap elections before leading his MPs in a dramatic walkout of parliament.

Mr Papandreou's government faces a crucial confidence vote on Friday.

He earlier said that opposition support could mean dropping controversial plans for a referendum on an EU bailout.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15586673

That's only a few hours after:

George Papandreou, Greece's beleaguered prime minister, has accepted an opposition proposal to form a temporary unity government that would secure approval of Europe's latest bailout plan, senior officials said Thursday.

The interim government would shepherd the bailout plan through parliament and then hold early elections, the officials said. Significantly, Papandreou would have to step down and not head the interim administration.

Anna Diamantopoulou, the Greek education minister, said Papandreou was prepared to accept the proposal from Antonis Samaras, head of the conservative New Democracy party, for a unity government.

Earlier, Papandreou said he would scrap his controversial bid to hold a referendum on the bailout plan and on Greece's membership of the Eurozone. In an address to members of his Socialist party in parliament Thursday evening, he said the referendum was no longer necessary now that opposition lawmakers were willing to help pass the new bailout plan after originally balking at it.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/world_now/2011/11/papandreou-unity-government.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

If you don't like the latest report, just wait a few hours - it will radically change.

[tama]

78. Legally

Only way to leave the Eurozone is to leave EU. Says EU Commission and EU treaties.

[Odin2005]

79. Capitalists hate Democracy.